Neck Tension/Crimp

[TXGunNut]

It seems I'm fighting a losing battle with my imported Sharps in .45-90. First, it was marked ".45-70 GOVT" but the chamber is a very nice .45-90. Using the correct brass helps but I feel I need a little neck tension. I size the case until the ID @ the case mouth is .452. Then I bell the case mouth (W/ a Lee expander) until it will accept the .459 boolits. When I seat the bollit I have little or no neck tension. I put a very slight "crimp" on the case mouth to allow chambering, anything more will make it even looser.
Have the same issues, to a smaller extent, in my .45-70 Guide Gun.
I'm thinking the expander is the issue but not sure. I don't know if a BPCR even needs neck tension but I think it does. Suggestions?

[RMulhern]

I think THIS....might be more of the issue:

"my imported Sharps"

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for the "help" RM but until I build some decent ammo I'll never know how well my imported Sharps or even a Montana built Sharps will shoot. I bought this rifle from the estate of a colorful old friend so I'll have it long after my Shiloh Sharps arrives. I'll be ordering from the nice folks in Big Timber as soon as I decide what features I want (and that pic thread didn't help!) but this is the rifle I bought to learn how to play this game and so far I'm the weak part of the team, I feel this old girl will shoot if I get her the right ammo.:smile:

[Chicken Thief]

I think THIS....might be more of the issue:

"my imported Sharps"

Eksqueeze me but how does the rifle have any influence on loading the brass. I must be dumb and ignorant so pretty please educate me properly on this issue oh great master.

[Chicken Thief]

Have you annealed the brass?
If dead soft it will stretch to a loose fit on the boolit.
Brass has a spring back of about .0015" so sizing any more than that just works the brass unnessesarily.

Why do you think neck tension is the "key"?

[RMulhern]

Eksqueeze me but how does the rifle have any influence on loading the brass. I must be dumb and ignorant so pretty please educate me properly on this issue oh great master.



Well 'O Chicken Thief...if U can't figure the 'influence' problem just possibly U might be able to fanthom the fact that many of the imported Sharps have different chamber designs than the Sharps from Montana and until one KNOWS what is being worked with, as for getting top performance that just may be a useless task!! I have owned imported rifles and the chambers were radically different from the Montana rifles!!

The Great Master

[Lead pot]

TGN.

Sizing the case to .452 and expanding is a bad way to go. It would help me more to know what the outside dimensions of the case mouth is after the case was fired in your chamber. Regardless sizing it to .452 and expanding it back this .005" or so a lot of other factors come to play. One is the threads that hold the expander in that die and the matching threads on the expander if there loose the lock nut on top of the die is a thin jam nut it might not be square or the threads are cut slightly on a angle this will hold the stem on a angle and make an uneven expansion of the mouth and the bullet have a lot of run out and if that bullet is a little loose (small in diameter) in the bore riding portion it will go into the throat that way and when the powder is lit especially with black powder the nose will be off center and do all sorts of crazy things.
This is what you can do that might help.
Get a taper crimp die and run your brass in that die far enough that it reduces the neck diameter say .002" at first and then put a slight bell on the case mouth that will allow the bullet you get started with out cutting lead on the bullet shank, having the inside case mouth chamfered is a must for this. Next readjust that taper crimp die to just take out the bell with out pressing it into the bullet side.
Using a taper crimp die works better then using a full length sizing die and then expanding the case mouth. The taper crimp die will hold the case centered a lot better and you dont over work your brass.
From there you can work up a load changing primers, wad stacks, bullet seating depth and powder charges. Change one component at a time and use a two or three shot group to save lead and powder till you see them get tight then try a ten shot group.
A few things that will give you groups with wild unexplained fliers other then control of your rifle is inconsistent neck tension from eccentric case mouth or using a roll crimp, inconsistent compression of the powder from bad inside case volume are a few things to look at.

LP.

[montana_charlie]

It seems I'm fighting a losing battle with my imported Sharps in .45-90. First, it was marked ".45-70 GOVT" but the chamber is a very nice .45-90. Using the correct brass helps but I feel I need a little neck tension. I size the case until the ID @ the case mouth is .452. Then I bell the case mouth (W/ a Lee expander) until it will accept the .459 boolits. When I seat the bollit I have little or no neck tension.
You start with a .452" hole, and shove a .459" bullet into it.
Something will change, and it might be the bullet ... not the case mouth.

Use an impact puller to get a seated bullet out, and measure it's diameter.

I put a very slight "crimp" on the case mouth to allow chambering, anything more will make it even looser.
If 'more crimp' makes things 'even looser' something is not stable to begin with, but crimping is usually avoided by BPCR shooters, anyway.

Have the same issues, to a smaller extent, in my .45-70 Guide Gun.
I'm thinking the expander is the issue but not sure. I don't know if a BPCR even needs neck tension but I think it does. Suggestions?
Try it without neck tension.
Load fireformed cases, and thumb seat the bullet onto a wad that is at a carefully determined depth in the case. Make sure that the bullet is seated out far enough to touch (or almost touch) the rifling, so it doesn't change length while in the chamber.
If you have been sizing your bullets down to .459" try them 'as cast' if they will fit in the fireformed mouth.

CM

[JSnover]

Well 'O Chicken Thief...if U can't figure the 'influence' problem just possibly U might be able to fanthom the fact that many of the imported Sharps have different chamber designs than the Sharps from Montana and until one KNOWS what is being worked with, as for getting top performance that just may be a useless task!! I have owned imported rifles and the chambers were radically different from the Montana rifles!!

The Great Master

But... isn't it just a matter of getting everything to fit?

[Don McDowell]

Tx, follow Leadpots instructions and you'll likely end up getting that thing to shoot. I have one of those Italians that has a 2.3 inch chamber... that was a load of fun getting it to shoot well and then the lock started falling apart...



. I must be dumb and ignorant

Yeh from what I've seen from you so far that about sums it up.:drinks:

[TXGunNut]

Thanks, guys. Just got back from the range and Boomer (my Pedretti & Sons Sharps) had a miserable day but it was so pretty I had a good time anyway.
Lead Pot, great post with some good info, will add a taper crimp die to my collection. Already tried the one for my .45acp, no joy. Cases just came out of the oven and into the cleaner; .478" od, .458" id. Chamber seems very smooth and tight, whoever rechambered it did a nice job. I think I need to focus on compression and wads once I determine a way to achieve uniform neck tension.
OTOH I did something at the range today that supports our friend RMulhern's assertions. I drove a slug into the rifling with a primer and determined that the bore is .452". I'll slug it to confirm, probably should have done this long ago.:mad:
I feel your pain, Don. Replaced the mainspring several months ago in mine, funny thing is that the one that worked best is one for an original Sharps. Breech block needs a good cleaning, maybe more. Primer strikes a bit light today.
At the very least it seems this rifle needs custom moulds. This old girl got me started into cast boolits and BP but it may be time to finish up the order form and send a check to the nice people in Big Timber, Montana. :(

[RMulhern]

Thanks, guys. Just got back from the range and Boomer (my Pedretti & Sons Sharps) had a miserable day but it was so pretty I had a good time anyway.
Lead Pot, great post with some good info, will add a taper crimp die to my collection. Already tried the one for my .45acp, no joy. Cases just came out of the oven and into the cleaner; .478" od, .458" id. Chamber seems very smooth and tight, whoever rechambered it did a nice job. I think I need to focus on compression and wads once I determine a way to achieve uniform neck tension.
OTOH I did something at the range today that supports our friend RMulhern's assertions. I drove a slug into the rifling with a primer and determined that the bore is .452". I'll slug it to confirm, probably should have done this long ago.:mad:
I feel your pain, Don. Replaced the mainspring several months ago in mine, funny thing is that the one that worked best is one for an original Sharps. Breech block needs a good cleaning, maybe more. Primer strikes a bit light today.
At the very least it seems this rifle needs custom moulds. This old girl got me started into cast boolits and BP but it may be time to finish up the order form and send a check to the nice people in Big Timber, Montana. :(

TXGunNut

You may have to wait a bit but the wait will be worth it! Now....I can save you some pain! Go ahead and get into PP because that's the only way you're gonna keep from mining lead! When you place your order....advise Lucinda that you wish to see if Kirk will chamber your rifle with a dimension akin to what Orville Loomer shoots![smilie=p::bigsmyl2:[smilie=s:

[TXGunNut]

Thanks, but as intrigued as I am by PP I really don't want to go there. I don't have leading issues but the idea still interests me. OTOH I just got in a RD GC mould for my .35 Rem 336 and I said I wasn't going to go there for awhile. RD was down to two moulds and I had no idea when he'd get more, Dan Walker and I snatched them up! Carpe diem indeed.
Gonna need a few days on the Shiloh site. Pretty sure I have the caliber, barrel length, wood grade and forend issues ironed out but then I gawked @ the sticky above and the engraving issue suddenly becomes a major one. Sights are another. Guess I'll order hunting sights for now, long range sights if I decide to suspend my retirement from competitive shooting.

:redneck:

[RMulhern]

Thanks, but as intrigued as I am by PP I really don't want to go there. I don't have leading issues but the idea still interests me. OTOH I just got in a RD GC mould for my .35 Rem 336 and I said I wasn't going to go there for awhile. RD was down to two moulds and I had no idea when he'd get more, Dan Walker and I snatched them up! Carpe diem indeed.
Gonna need a few days on the Shiloh site. Pretty sure I have the caliber, barrel length, wood grade and forend issues ironed out but then I gawked @ the sticky above and the engraving issue suddenly becomes a major one. Sights are another. Guess I'll order hunting sights for now, long range sights if I decide to suspend my retirement from competitive shooting.

:redneck:

TXGunNut

"I don't have leading issues"

Ho Ho! That's what a lot of folks say!!:-|:mad::|

[kokomokid]

I did not have a leading problem till I really checked for it. Gun shoots better since I found out how to get most of the lead out.

[bigted]

.452 ??? i keep reading this and i don't get what you are trying to do with a .452 inch diameter id for a .458 or 9 boolit. i would only size it to .456 or 7 with your .459 boolit so you don't have to shove all that lead around or re-size your brass with the boolit when seating a boolit with a squeeze factor of around .007 inch. that is too much squeezing for any boolit i ever heard of.

or have i misunderstood your figures?

[TXGunNut]

It's a bit confusing, sorry. I was resizing my case mouths to .452" in an attempt to get a more uniform neck tension but it wasn't working very well.
By coincidence it seems the bore is more than a little tight, I fired a boolit, sized .459", with only a primer and then drove it back out & measured it. Determined the bore was .452".
I found an appropriate sized round ball to size it properly, will know for sure in a little while.

[TXGunNut]

Bummer, preliminary findings were right.:sad:

[littlejack]

What the he!! are yoiu guys tlking about?
My Uberti bore is .4515, what's wrong with that? It's supposed to be somewhere around
there. What would you like it to be?
If you have a good set of dies and either neck size or full lenght size, the case will hold a
.458-9 boolit What's the problem? The boolits is going to be held in by the neck tension, you
don't need any STINKING crimp.
What set of dies did you use to get the inside of the sized case .452? What do you mean by
a more uniform neck tension? I never heard of such a thing?
Is somebody trying to re-invent a whole new wheel again?
Jack

[TXGunNut]

Just checked my Guide Gun, it seems to be .452" as well, maybe a bit tighter @ the muzzle. I was expecting about .457". Not trying to reinvent the wheel, just figure out how to make it roll.

[littlejack]

You DO know that there is a difference between BORE diameter and GROOVE diameter.
Bore diameter will be about what yours is, +/- .001. Groove diameter will be .457 - 8 - 9.
What is the micrometer reading at the widest point (groove) of the slugged boolit?
"This will show the groove dimension of the barrel, NOT the groove of the slugged boolit".
Jack

[Gellot Wilde]

What bullet are you using and what weight is it...there is no mention of this unless I missed it?

[Ed in North Texas]

Yeh from what I've seen from you so far that about sums it up.:drinks:

Gratuitous insults aren't what I expect to read on Cast Boolits. "Smiley", or not, I believe it wasn't appropriate.

Just my $0.02 USD.

Ed

[John Boy]

Bummer, preliminary findings were right.

For what it's worth, the bore & groove diameters for my 45-70 rifles:
449 - 4584 ... Douglas on a CPA 44 1/2 receiver
452 - 455 ... H&R BC
450 - 454 ... '73 Trapdoor
450 - 455 ... Pedersoli
449 - 455 ... Uberti HiWall
450 - 454 ... Pedersoli
Even the 45-75's are 452 land and 456 groove

Are you sure that the 0.452 is the groove diameter and not the bore diameter that you are measuring? The groove marks on the slugged bullets should be measured on the 2 high spots opposite from each other for a 6 groove bullet


Just got back from the range and Boomer (my Pedretti & Sons Sharps) had a miserable day Presume the groups were poor. Which leads to this question - what bullet alloy are you shooting? If they are store bought bullets, does it say 1:20 or 1:30 on the box? Possibly could they hard cast bullets for smokeless reloads that are Lyman #2 or harder in the range of Bhn 18?

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for your interest, guys. I think we're getting somewhere. Just knocked another slug thru to be thorough.
Bore diameter .452"
Groove diameter .459-460"
Alloy used Sunday 50/50 clip-on/stick-on WW's, air cooled for at least a week. Have used commercial 20-1 and 30-1.
Used Lyman 457122 (Gould 330) and 457193 (405 FP) Sunday, have used 457125 (500 RN) as well. All boolits weigh within 2 grains, heaviest to lightest.
(Used 457193 over a smokeless load in a Guide Gun to fire a 2.5" group, another load development project in progress.)
Most recent loads used a .060" wad. compressed FFg charges .070" after dropping thru a tube.
Boolits drop just a hair over .459 from each mould, 50/50 closer to .460. All recent boolits run thru a .459 Lyman sizing die, lubed with SPG.
My concern with neck tension is likely a hangover from rifles using sp and j-word bullets, I try to keep my smokeless thought processes away from the BP processes but it's difficult. I want the tension to be uniform. I'm planning on taking this rifle hunting someday so I'm not too comfortable with little or no neck tension.
And yes, Ed, I felt that seemed a bit rude but I figured (hoped?) they were having a little fun.

[RMulhern]

HOT DAMN....in 20 years I haven't learned a damn thing!!

[John Boy]

I think we're getting somewhere. Just knocked another slug thru to be thorough.
Bore diameter .452"
Groove diameter .459-460"
Finally, 2 pages later! Whew! OK, your on the hunt of understanding. Believe your measurement of the groove diameter is on the high side. Measure a couple of more times. So, what you need to buy now is an expander die and expander plugs so the neck tension is 0.001 to 0.002 smaller than the bullet base with a bullet that is 0.001 to 0.003 larger than the groove diameter
Track of the Wolf:
Expander Plugs, buy them all ... 457 to 462... http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartList.aspx?catID=18&subID=128&styleID=433&AspxAuCookieSupport=1&as=1
Trust me, no 45-70 bullets are exactly the same sized base

Neck Expander Die ... http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=18&subId=128&styleId=422&partNum=LEE-DIE-45-EX

* Measure the base diameter of the bullet to be reloaded
* Put the proper size plug in the expander die
* Expand the case neck with a bell wide enough so 1/2 of the bullet base sets in the case
* Charge the case and seat the bullet ... a crimp only to remove the bell
That's it, your done except for buying a good reference manual on reloading lead bullets.

Here's a free read ... http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

This should be the end of the thread ... Good Luck Shooting

[TXGunNut]

Sorry, John Boy. Didn't mean to keep you in suspense. :smile: Measured the groove diameter several times, dial caliper not the best tool for the job but one set of grooves consistently measured .459, another .460 and the other was a bit rough but it was in that range. I have the .459 plug and the Lee Die, seems I need a .458 and .457.
I have Venturino & Garbe's BPC Reloading Primer, Lyman's 4th Edition CB Handbook and Lyman's BP Handbook & Loading Manual. BP cartridges aren't covered very well in the BP Handbook but have read the other two pretty thoroughly.
Any thoughts on powder compression, John Boy? Consensus I'm getting is a rather profound "it depends on the rifle". Kinda reminds me of sp and j-word bullets.

[RMulhern]

Short lesson!

Unless you're shooting a '73 Trap Door Springfiled.....and you wish to shoot a grease groove bullet....cast a slug of .459" and size it to .458" and fill the grooves with a BP lube! If your bullet is .458"...use and expander plug of .456"!! Seat the SOAG such that the OAL engraves about 1/2" of the first drive band and you're good to go! If PP....shoot a bullet that will give you a finished bullet OD of .447" to .449"; one that's easy to chamber and an alloy of 1-20 or 1-40 and you'll get good results.....provided you pay attention to the ironclad rules of marksmanship!! I can't stress enough how good NORMA brass works!!

[TXGunNut]

Thanks, RM. I think you and John Boy have given me a neck tension solution I can use for hunting. Will order plugs but also want to try the loose fit method many of the BPCR comp guys seem to like. Dropping a boolit into a charged case with no neck tension seems very odd but if I don't try it I'll never know.
Only been shooting BP cartridges about two years and it seems the first rule of BP should be "This Ain't Smokeless!"

[Don McDowell]

On tight chamber rifles like the Winchester bpcr's and Shiloh you need to flare the case mouth just a tad , and then the bullet just falls in, then crimp just a tad so the round will chamber.
You're right it does take some getting used to loading that way.
Sure saves alot of wear and tear on the sizing die..

[TXGunNut]

That's what I did tonight, Don. Just skipped the sizing step, flared it just a bit to get the boolit started and "crimped" it just enough to chamber it. Seated the boolit mostly to get the wad to a uniform depth. Seems odd but hard to beat this method for uniformity. Will hopefully have a clearer picture this time tomorrow. Maybe I'll still get some use out of my sizer die next time I buy new brass.
Ordered the .458 and .457 Lee sizer plugs as well as taper crimp and neck sizer dies for my Guide Gun loads. Somehow Venturino's book on "Shooting Leverguns of the Old West" made it into my cart as well.

[Don McDowell]

I resize my brass after 3 or 4 firings, or when you feel a marked difference in chambering ease. So you may not want to use the sizing die for a slip sinker in your fishing tackle box just yet.
Looking forward to seeing how this works for you.

[TXGunNut]

No danger of any dies becoming slip sinkers, Don. I have no idea what it'll take to make these rifles shoot and I'll be sending a check to our friends in Big Timber when I figure out what I want in my next Sharps. It'll be a .45-70 but have no idea what that rifle will like. I also think any new batch of brass needs a trip thru a FL resizer.
I appreciate the tip, Don. Was wondering when this brass would need a FL resize. I'm wondering if my Hornady dies overdo the resizing thing. Tomorrow (today)'s going to be fun!

[Don McDowell]

My Hornady dies size the cases down a bunch tighter than my Lymans do.