1891 mauser project

[autofix4u]

So I have this old sporterized 1891 Argentine, stock cut barrel pitted beyond being able to hold a decent "pattern". I love the lines on the 91, I have a coupe that shoot awesome, so I just cant let this one waste away.
To start I had heard horror stories about getting the old barrel off (its been on there over 100 years). So I mounted it in my trusty reciver wrench and held the wrench in my vice and took my 24" pipe wrench to the barrel expecting a fight. It came right off, mabe 75-100 ftlbs.
I know the barrel shank on the is diffrent that other small ring Mausers so after some measuring I find its .070" longer .
I have a FN take off barrel thats never been fired in cal 30-06........
Thats a little more than I want on a small ring action...
30-06 fits in the mag, feeds well?....
I decided to go ahead since I have to turn the shank down and rethread anyway, I took .040" off the breech end of the chamber.
The barrel now fitted to the reciver, head space not an issue since I will be forming brass, and the bolt wont close on a factory 06 round. What say you all good idea or not? I will see if I can get some pics later.

[Doble Troble]

You've got a wildcat. There's no chance that after your passing someone will be able to chamber an -06 loaded max. Someone will be able to chamber the expected 7.65 x 53 though -which probably would be safe (firing a full-on -06 probably would be too). I'd specify in your will that this rifle be buried with you and, in the mean time, that you don't loan it out.

Those '91 Argies are beautiful examples of the gunmaker's art - and an example that art can be mass-produced.

[bcp477]

Why not ? Glad you had a barrel on hand - and got it to fit. Just do be SURE to keep the loads well under normal (SAAMI spec) 30-06 loads. The military 7.62 x 53 was normally loaded to a max of 35,000 - 40,000 psi, in that era. Standard commercial 06 loadings run upwards of 60,000 psi, these days.

[Multigunner]

I've miked pulled bullets from some relic 7.65X53 and found them to be gently tapered.
The base was .314 but the body of the bullet tapered to .312 just in front of the crimping cannelure. So this milspec ammo at least was intended to allow for variations in bore size or bores partly choked with metal fouling.

A .312 bullet in a .3085 bore would raise pressures by a noticable degree ( about 7-8% according to what a former Ruger employee posted about a test run on .303 chambered rifles with .308 barrels), but the 7.65X53 isn't a hot cartridge so the increase is unlikely to be beyond the safety margin of the action.
Mauser actions of this general time period were normally proofed to 58,000 CUP, with the pressures for Model 98 actions raised to (IIRC) 74,000 or possibly 78,000 CUP a bit later on.

The information I found years ago on turn of the century German proof testing expressed the figures in Metric Atmospheres so I'm not sure if I got the figures down exactly right..

PS
Get a set of stamps and mark the barrel using your own nick name for your wildcat .30 caliber. This should prevent errors by any one that gets a hold of the rifle in later years.

[leadman]

P.O. Ackley was of the opinion that the 91 was strong enough for a 308 Win. I would not feel real comfortable with that knowing what some will load it to. The 300 Savage would be a great fit.
Nothing says you can't have your own wildcat so just mark it well and if you think someone may want to load for it after you are gone write down the particulars and keep it with the rifle.

[autofix4u]

As soon as I think of a name for my new wildcat cal I will stamp it on the barrel. As for loads I plan to keep them in the 7.65x53 range.

All of my rifles have there own log book with a photo of the rifle on the cover, contains ID info for rifle with several photos, Load data and info on brass forming if needed. All of my children are aware of my system.
I have no fears of someone not knowing what is there after my passing, but if they overload it its there own fault..... The info is there.

As for the 1891 being able to handle the pressures of a modern round I am of the opinion that they can, Having grown up with one in the house chambered in 22-250.. Dad still has it but its due for a rebarrel after about 30 years of hard use. Now would I put a 22-250 on one now...... NO. There are better actions to build on that can hande a case failue without tragic results for the rifle and shooter.

[Bret4207]

Anyone that has ever used Normas 7.65 loadings will verify that the 91 is on par with at least the 308, if not a bit more. It's actually a wonderful cartridge, very well designed. Only the lack of bullet selection hampers it the versatility arena, as are all the .311 cartridges.

I used to look down on the 91 with it's clunky mag and punishing recoil (all we had was Norma). But that was back in the 70's when the 91 was a $25-50.00 rifle and we cut them down and otherwise mutilated many of these excellent rifles, mores the shame. Owning an an issued specimen now, I feel almost ashamed at the deeds was did in our ignorance. The 91 in rifle form carries like a graceful muzzle loader almost and will usually shoot the nit off a gnats neck as far as your eyes will take you.

Lovely rifles from a different time.

[Larry Gibson]

I've measured the psi of some original milsurp 7.65x53 ammunition, including some original FN 35 Belgian ammunition. The Belgian and the Argentine ammuntions run 53 -55,000 psi as measured in my M91 with the Oehler M43. Hornady factory (imported) also runs in the 53-54,000 psi range. Norma runs a little higher in the 55-56,000 psi range. A lot of '06 and .308W factory ammunition runs in the same psi range. Mauser designed the SR actions to withsatnd the then MAP of the 7.65 and other military cartridges for his actions of 3900 bar's. That converts to 56,565 psi (piezo measurement) which is also the current CIP MAP for the 7.65x53 cartridge.

I've rebarreled several M91s and short chambered them with '06 and 35 Whelen reamers to create 30x57s and 35x57s. Both are excellent cartridges and dies can easily be made by simply shortening '06 and 35 Whelen standard dies. They make excellent poor man's wildcats for those excellent M91 actions.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

My sporter 91 sees some loads with the 180gr Remington .310" RN jacketed that are over 2,500 fps with no pressure signs. I'm using AA2520 to do this. This is a max load from the older Accurate Arms loading manuals. Has worked beautifully on a couple of cow elk being dropped in their tracks.
This bullet is just a little on the small side for my bore and this may be why I get the velocity I do without any pressure signs. When I use the Hornady .312" 150gr I run into pressure signs at about the same velocity.
The 150s shoot into less than 2" at 200 yards, the 180s group about 3 1/2" to 4".

Sounds like the OP has a great method for identifying each of his rifles and loads.

I get asked questions at the range about this rifle and they can't believe something so old can shoot the way it does, especially when my groups just beat out their expensive gun.

I have an original condition 91 that the bore is worn and pitted but still shoots decent. Often thought of reboring this to a 35 cal. Guess all it takes is money!

Have fun and good shooting.

[azrednek]

I've said numerous times here and other groups but never pass an opportunity to say it again. It should apply to all shooting but NEVER shoot a 91 Mauser without good safety glasses. The 91 does not have the vent as later Mausers for gas sneaking by the cartridge. A ruptured cartridge or a poor chamber to cartridge fit will put hot burning gas right into the shooter's eye.

I was fire-forming re-formed 30-06 in my 91. Some hot burning gas sneaked by the cartridge shoulder and literally fried (no exaggeration) the right lens of my shooting glasses. If I hadn't been wearing the glasses it would have been my eyeball that got toasted.

This is my 91, some what of an oddball as it says Mauser Modelo Argentino but wears a Peruvian crest. It uses a Gew 98 type rear sight and the handguard is slightly different. The barrel was arsenal re-lined and despite the exterior pits and arsenal paint job the bore is bright and shiny. I haven't shot it in at least 20 years but used to really impress my shooting buds with the tight groups. I was using the Hornady 174gr RN that at the time was .313 but is now .312.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-1a.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-4.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-1.jpg

[azrednek]

Anyone that has ever used Normas 7.65 loadings will verify that the 91 is on par with at least the 308, if not a bit more. .

I totally agree but what gives the Argy a boost is the long barrel length. Shorten the Argy barrel the 308 has the FPS advantage. Years ago when cronys became affordable by John Q Public and the biggies all got caught with their pants down fudging on FPS claims. Norma was about the only ammo manufacture that wasn't caught stretching the truth.

[leadman]

I think it would be a toss-up between the Argy and 308 with the same barrel lengths. My sporter has a 26" barrel so have lost some of this advantage.
I built a 308 on a K98 for my son with a 22" barrel and the measured velocity of factory ammo did not measure up to specs.
Probably would come down to a close race between the individual guns.

When I first got my sporter in 1981 I used to find those larger bullets at gun shows. Worked well in my original barrel as it had a larger bore diameter.

[Larry Gibson]

The 7.65 Argie holds it's own against the .308W with comparable barrels. The larger capcity of the 7.65 means that psi can be kept within specs. Here's my confirmation target of the 150 gr Hornady SP load I use in Evita. She has a 23 3/4" barrel and shoots wonderfully. She is very handy as a "scout". I also have a strain gauge attached to her for psi testing the loads via the Oehler M43.

Larry Gibson

[autofix4u]

Well I got the 91 out today and fireformed 50 pieces of brass that I had set the sholder back on.. All went well untill i inpected the cases back at the house It appears I need a new fireing pin. about half of the cases have pirced primers.. Load was a LEE 170 gn fp over 12 grns of red dot light by a win lpp.
I was not able to test for accuacy due to not having sights on the rifle yet. I have a set of Rem 700 sight I had thought of installing. But had also ponderd puting on a Lyman or Redfield reciver sight.
What say the other cast boolit shooters, What sights do you prefer on a cast only rifle?

[leadman]

Might want to check the tip of your firing pin. I had to polish up both of mine as both my rifles pierced the primers when I got them.

I had a receiver sight on my sporter for awhile and it worked very well. Mine had the original front sight and I had to install a taller blade to get it to sight in.

Have an old Lyman on my Krag and can shoot groups around 2" at 100 yards with it.

[PatMarlin]

How does you scope mount Larry? -nice rifle-

[Larry Gibson]

How does you scope mount Larry? -nice rifle-

I modified (grinder and file) a Leupold base for a octagon ML barrel. The middle of the base fits snugly between the "ears" so I ground and filed the front so it layed flat and level on the front part of the sight base. The wide part at the rear of the Leupold base was butted against the rear of the rear sight base as a recoil shoulder. I then D&T'd a hole up front to hold the base down and drilled through the rear ladder base holes for the original pin to fit.

It is a rock solid base, allows for windage adjustment to center the scope and keeps the scope low like it needs to be for proper eye relief and spot weld of the cheek on the stock.

Larry Gibson

[TRX]

Something I posted elsewhere, but relevant to this discussion.

---
a piece of history

I dug my 1891 Mauser out the other day. I haven't shot it since... uh... 1987, best as I can figure. I have about 60 rounds of homemade 7.65x53 I loaded about the same time. One box of 20 has the characteristic round shoulders left by the swaging die that reforms .30-'06 brass to 7.65. The shoulders don't get crisp until the round is fired once.

1891:

In the American West, the Dalton Gang was in the news.

In the citified east, Thomas Alva Edison gave the first demonstration of moving pictures via his new "kinetoscope."

In the village of Ranshofen in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, a boy named Adolf turned two. His parents went to church and prayed for his health; he was their fourth child. Two boys and a girl had all died before reaching their third year.

In the Third Republic of France, Michelin patented the pneumatic tire.

In Imperial Russia, Tsar Alexander's armorers approved the "3-line rifle, Model 1891," though production was not scheduled to start until the next year. He also started construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway.

In the British Empire, "The Strand" in London printed the first Sherlock Holmes story. Across town, Freidrich Engels was finishing up "Das Kapital" after the death of its original writer, his friend Karl Marx.

In the Second Reich of Germany, an inspector in the ultra-modern steam-powered, gaslit Mauser-Werke factory in Berlin drove a hardened steel stamp into the barrel of a rifle. It marked the rifle as proofed by the authority of His Imperial and Royal Majesty Wilhelm the Second, by the Grace of God, German Emperor and King of Prussia.


And now, 120 years later and on a different continent, that same rifle is leaning against the side of my desk. The Reich and the House of Hohenzollern are no more, and Mauser-Werke exists only as a brand name in a corporate conglomerate. It has been a quarter of a century since it was last fired. But when I settle it onto the sandbag at the range next week, I expect it will perform flawlessly, as it always has before.


There are few modern sporting rifles that match the Model of 1891 as far as quality of construction. The 1891 wasn't designed for sale to individuals, but to governments, in an era when rifles were still considered a capital investment, and were expected to last indefinitely. I have never found the price the 1891 sold for, or then-current exchange rate between the Reich and government of Argentina, but I expect that rifle cost at least the same as a year's pay for the soldier who carried it. By modern standards the detail on the 1891 is insane; the magazine follower is whittled out of bar stock and polished, and the blue job... of course, the 1891 was designed for export, and "pretty" is always a selling point, even for military weapons. The Model of 1891 isn't "better quality" than my Romanian AK-47; I expect the Romy will perform just as reliably on its 120th birthday. The two rifles are the end products of very different engineering decision trees, their only real similarity being that they both shoot a .311 diameter bullet.

Even knowing that, I still love the smooth snick of the polished, oiled Mauser parts sliding against each other. That feel doesn't make it shoot any better, but I bet it impressed that long-ago Argentine purchasing agent as much as it does me. "This is a firearm of the highest quality, one that our soldiers will be proud to carry, that will serve our nation reliably for many years to come."

[PatMarlin]

Well I finally bought one. Shoulda got one before they started going up, but never saw one I liked.

May have paid on the high side, but I haven't seen one as nice and they want a whole lot more money for the others I've seen. I'd rather pay $100 or so over for something I like.

Should be a good shooter.

[PatMarlin]

I modified (grinder and file) a Leupold base for a octagon ML barrel. The middle of the base fits snugly between the "ears" so I ground and filed the front so it layed flat and level on the front part of the sight base. The wide part at the rear of the Leupold base was butted against the rear of the rear sight base as a recoil shoulder. I then D&T'd a hole up front to hold the base down and drilled through the rear ladder base holes for the original pin to fit.

It is a rock solid base, allows for windage adjustment to center the scope and keeps the scope low like it needs to be for proper eye relief and spot weld of the cheek on the stock.

Larry Gibson

So do you remove the sight when you want to use the peep, or do you just use the scope now?

[leadman]

Should be a great rifle Pat. If you want to scope it hunt down Dutchman here. I bought one of his wonderful bases that replaces the rear sight.
Many of the 91s suffer from the corrosive primers that the military used, but mine in this condition still shoots good.
The RCBS trim die makes it real easy to convert 30-06 based brass to 7.65.

[PatMarlin]

I've got plenty of 270, 308, and 30-06 brass. Looks like all I need is a set of reloading dies. I might rough trim with my Harbor Freight mini chop saw, then fine trim. I could use a lathe I guess. May as well do it with CNC.

You got pics of your mount?

[Larry Gibson]

So do you remove the sight when you want to use the peep, or do you just use the scope now?

I just use the scope now as I've had no need to remove it and my eyes are getting that way. It is an older Burris 3X Scout with perfect eye relief. The Lyman reciever sight and M14 front sight are there for "back up" just in case the scope goes south. I've ground the lanyard loop on my Gerber tool to fit the base windage screws. Since I always carry the gerber when hunting I can easily remove the scope in the field if need be.

Suggest getting the 8x57 form die as you can use it for multiple Mauser cartridges including the 7.65 Argie when forming cases from .270, '06, etc. More versitle than a cartridge specific form die. I form the cases, cut off excess and then size in the 7.65 Argie die (adjusted for a crush fit in the specific rifle for fire forming), trim and chamfer and they are ready to load.

Larry Gibson

[PatMarlin]

Well I'm not to happy. My M1981 Argentine arrived and the rifle looks great. Looking down the breech it looked shiny with nice rifling, so I started to clean the bore. There was a never ending dark chocolate grey residue that just cakes every patch. Junk just keeps turning up, after many brushes and a some chore boy with Blue Wonder also. Really deceiving.

After much cleaning, I held the muzzle under a magnifying light and there's no visible rifling at the crown, and none down the bore, and pitting as far down as I could see.

I paid more for this rifle as the barrel was represented as in fine condition. Looking from the breach into a light it does look very nice, but the muzzle is shot. I'm just not into buying rifles unless the have a good bore.

I've never had one like this. I imagine no matter how good the bore rifling, rifling gone and pitting at the muzzle is pretty much going to screw up accuracy isn't it? Dang.

[dbldblu]

Well I got the 91 out today and fireformed 50 pieces of brass that I had set the sholder back on.. All went well untill i inpected the cases back at the house It appears I need a new fireing pin. about half of the cases have pirced primers..

Several of my Mausers will pierce LPP but not LRP.

[leadman]

Did you contact the seller to see what he would do? If you are stuck with it the only way you will know if it is junk is to shoot it. There are a couple of manufacturers of jacketed ammo, hornady ,grafs, and Privi.
If you don't want to invest in commercial ammo maybe someone would send you somw brass, then you could load it with about any 30 cal rifle seater die.

I have an all original 1891 that has a fairly nasty bore but shoots pretty good.

[PatMarlin]

There is a 3 day inspection on it. I can send it back. The seller deals in a lot of mill surps and has a good rep. I don't think there will be a problem, I'm just disappointed.

I probably could negotiate a price adjustment, but then I don't want to be stuck with junk. If the barrel was cut back an inch, recrowned with sight put back I bet it would be a great shooter, but holy cow- that can't be cheap, and then it looses it's originality.

[PatMarlin]

I'm also wondering if there's pitting throughout the bore like what I see at the muzzle, and someone shot a lot of cast through it. That may explain the color of the path fouling and never ending lead. It is "bright and shiny with sharp rifling" and fine looking like his ad states, well all except for the muzzle.

[PatMarlin]

Did you contact the seller to see what he would do? If you are stuck with it the only way you will know if it is junk is to shoot it. There are a couple of manufacturers of jacketed ammo, hornady ,grafs, and Privi.
If you don't want to invest in commercial ammo maybe someone would send you somw brass, then you could load it with about any 30 cal rifle seater die.

I have an all original 1891 that has a fairly nasty bore but shoots pretty good.

Could I fireform say 270, 308, or '06 brass? Trim to spec length then seat a boolit with 06' dies? It looks like .308 Win may form up to pretty darn close. I have a 06' small base die I could presize with and see if it will chamber.

I've got various fat 30's cast up.

[PatMarlin]

Well that didn't work. The SB dies do not size down small enough to chamber.

[autofix4u]

Well that didn't work. The SB dies do not size down small enough to chamber.

Before I found a set of 7.65 dies I loaded mine with a 7x57 sizer and a 308 seater. Use a 312 expander in the 7x57 sizer. It does over work the brass a little, but seemd to work ok for a little while. I used 7x57 brass trimed to 7.65 length and got very acceptable results.

[autofix4u]

The 308 brass comes up short, but I have used it in the past, most all of mine is formed from 270 win and Greek HXP .

[PatMarlin]

I got the 308 to chamber, with a bump from a 35Rem die (decapping pin removed of course). I've never fire formed brass before so I'm being real careful.

I fired a magnum primer but now the extractor won't extract the case. So I have a 308 full sized with a SB die (this will not chamber), then I bump about 1/2 the case in a 35 rem die and it's chambers and extracts, but after I shoot a Mag primer in it, it won't extract.

.440 right behind the shoulder, and .466 at the base.

What would you do at this point?

[PatMarlin]

I'm stopping at this point as I don't know what I'm doing with this fire forming. I got the 308 case to chamber with the base sized as large as I could at .468. But when I fire a primer in it, it won't extract.

Not enough hp to form the brass? I would think it would extract but nadda.

When I say extract, it won't grab the case rim. Works fine before I fire it.

[autofix4u]

I have never had a problem with the 91 extractor catching a case rim. The 91 extractor has a reputation for being a little weak. Will the bolt hod a case under the extractor with it out of the rifle?
Pm me your address and I will send you some 765 brass. I have very little with the correct headstamp. but have lots with 270 win and mil headstamps. wont help on your 3 day inspection...?
Keep an eye out for a new post about the 91s, I took one of mine to the range today and had a good time.

[autofix4u]

I went back and reread your post, the problem is the sholder is not far enough forward on your 308 brass fo keep the fireing pin from pushing the case off the extractor. Just an educated guess. I think you would be fine with the properly formed brass.

[PatMarlin]

How do you fireform your cases? I've been doing some searches looking for methods.

Thanks for the offer. I've got plenty of 308,.270, and 06' brass and since I've got the sizing close enough I just need to fireform and I think I'll be good to go.

[autofix4u]

I most cals I use a start load of 4895 and seat a cast boolit till it engraves the rifling hard, Then just shoot.
But you will find that wont work in the 91 argi, The lead is cut VERY large and I dont think you will find a boolit that will reach the lands. For the 91 I use 8-10 grns of pistol powder toped with a case full of filler (I use ground walnut hull tumbling media) pluged with hard wax. Shoot upward and eject the formed case. As a side benifit the media does a decent job of cleaning the bore.
I dont know if thats the recomended process, but it has worked for me.