cast'em hard?!

[tuckerdog]

When it comes to handguns I have always wondered at the hard cast craze and what might have started it. It seems that everywhere you look there is a crowd that wants harder and harder boolits. Now I may be way out in left field but it's always been my opinion that pressure not vel. is the limiting factor when shooting cast. I have tried the harder boolits and have always found that they seem to lead a bore (were talking handguns) much more than a softer alloy. as pressure goes up a little harder is ok but for a goodly number of years even into the smokeless age boolits were pure lead or nearly so and no problems

assuming good fit I'll cast mine soft and have a blast.In the end it's what works for you and even in my 44mags I get better results casting say... 429421 at 255 grn than at 245. just my 2cents

just remember to have fun and enjoy your hobby

[Rangefinder]

I'm with you. For rifles I cast hard. But for pistols, I have always gotten my best performance out of a boolit at about 50/50 soft/WW or even 60/40 blends. They shoot clean, the HP's always expand really nice, and my bores stay shiny all day.

[cbrick]

Your a wise man Mr tuckerdog,

Hardcast is a term promoted by the commercial casters very simply because hard bullets survive the rigors of shipping better than a proper alloy. Same reason they use a hard lube, it stays on the bullet better during shipping. Neither has a thing to do with what is best for their customers or the guy pulling the trigger.

A bullet that fits the firearm well that it's fired in can help cover up the problems inherent with too hard an alloy. The term"hardcast" has to be the reason many new casters and purchasers of commercial cast give up completely on cast and then spread the old wives tale that cast bullets are no good, are not accurate and lead the barrel. As such hardcast is an evil term.

Rick

[captaint]

Tuckerdog - I don't think I have ever cast boolits for handguns harder than BHN 10 or so. Just not necessary. This is what I normally get from 50WW and 50Pb. Works for me. enjoy Mike

[Cmemiss]

I also think that back in the day, 60 or so years ago, some gun writers and others were advocating hard cast for that new fangled auto pistol. It was supposed to feed better.

[cbrick]

I also think that back in the day, 60 or so years ago, some gun writers and others were advocating hard cast for that new fangled auto pistol. It was supposed to feed better.

Welcome to Castboolits Cmemiss,

You are 100% correct . . . However, 60+ years ago what was considered "hardcast" was 11-12 BHN. That's what Elmer used to develop the 44 Mag with plain base bullets, hard back then was pure Pb and tin and 12 was about as hard as it got or was needed. Hhmmm . . . Just like today except today we use Sb to harden and Sn for fill out. I shoot air cooled clip on WW at 12 BHN to 2000 fps in rifles and get great accuracy and zero leading. Very few of my handgun loads do I harden beyond 12 BHN.

Don't confuse what was with the hype of today, they really are two different things.

Rick

[white eagle]

the only time I even consider casting harder is when I want more penetration
into the target
for hunting I very rarely even entertain the idea of casting a hard boolit

[williamwaco]

+1 on hard bullets.

This hard cast craze is beyond my comprehension. The original meaning of "Hard Cast" was Lyman No. 2 alloy that is BNH 15, which, incidentally is exactly the hardness of clip-on wheel weights. ( In my part of the country - Dallas )

A friend, new to reloading and very young, recently brought me some 230 gr .45 acp bullets, He had made some "special" alloy and then water cooled it. He didn't understand why he could not size them. He had a respectable, name brand reloading press but he couldn't push those bullets through the sizing die. He wanted to know what was wrong with his loading press.

I was shocked when I tested them with my Lee Brinnel tester. It was the smallest indent I had ever seen. It was off the scale hard. I had to create an excel spread sheet to expand the Lee BNH chart. That done, the measurement worked out to almost 35 on the BNH scale.

I prefer somewhere around 9-10, never harder than 15. That is plenty hard for automatic pistols.

My next complaint is all these hard lubes. I have only bought one of them but I have "used" three more through acquiring them on store bought "hard cast" bullets. I find them significantly inferior to alox/beeswax in preventing leading in pistol ammo.

Wow, it feels good to rant occasionally.

[Sonnypie]

I have a hard time getting lead here.
So, I've taken to getting Magnum shot at a local range. Two fold for me....
I can load it for the shotgun, and melt it down and reform it into 45 cal boolits.
I add a smidgen of lead-free solder and get nice casting properties. Tests @ 11.8 AC, or 12.1 WD with my Lee tester.
And it shoots good, too.

I scored my first WW's the other day. 4.5 pounds of Gen u whine, I Garronteee, WW metal!
It's in my typical condiment cup ingot form with "WW" stamped in them.
They are the cutest little thangs!
I haven't even tested the hardness yet. All I know is they are my very first WW's.

[btroj]

I used to be a hard cast guy. Then I learned that hard bullets in a revolver with small throats were a recipe for leading.
I doubt I use many bullets over 15 bhn on a regular basis.
I prefer range scrap over many other alloys. It casts well, shoots well, and is dirt cheap.

[williamwaco]

I used to be a hard cast guy. Then I learned that hard bullets in a revolver with small throats were a recipe for leading.
I doubt I use many bullets over 15 bhn on a regular basis.

I prefer range scrap over many other alloys. It casts well, shoots well, and is dirt cheap.

I really like range scrap. It is no cheaper here than wheel weights but it is about 8 to 9 BNH and makes really great pistol bullets.

[btroj]

Mine is all stuff I picked up myself. I get a hundred pounds or so a year by just gathering what I can while at the range.

[williamwaco]

Mine is all stuff I picked up myself. I get a hundred pounds or so a year by just gathering what I can while at the range.


? ? ? ? ?

How do you do that.
There is no way anywhere I shot to spend any time on the backstop.

[btroj]

Outdoor range. The one club has numerous pistol "pits" , like 7 of them, that go to 25 yards. It is easy to have one to yourself. When I go to put out targets or check them I pick up a few bullets from the berm. Quite easy to come home with 2 to 5 pounds each time.
I need to get out this winter when it gets colder and spend more time doing the pick up routine. I figure few will be shooting so I won't be keeping anyone from shooting.
This club has quite an active IPSC shooting group and that is the reason for so many individual pistol ranges. Ideal for 1 or 2 shooters each. Perfect for cowboy action matches too.

I suppose I am lucky to shoot where I do?

[williamwaco]

Too bad. ( for me ). My range only has one pistol range with about 20 stations. Everyone shoots at the same time.

[badbob454]

Welcome to Castboolits Cmemiss,

You are 100% correct . . . However, 60+ years ago what was considered "hardcast" was 11-12 BHN. That's what Elmer used to develop the 44 Mag with plain base bullets, hard back then was pure Pb and tin and 12 was about as hard as it got or was needed. Hhmmm . . . Just like today except today we use Sb to harden and Sn for fill out. (((I shoot air cooled clip on WW at 12 BHN to 2000 fps in rifles and get great accuracy and zero leading. )))Very few of my handgun loads do I harden beyond 12 BHN.

Don't confuse what was with the hype of today, they really are two different things.

Rick

Is this is gas checked ? or not .., and what caliber ,or round of ammo ?
this just seems fast for a plain base medium hardness, boolit without a gas check at this velocity

[Jal5]

YOu could always go out to the range before opening time like I do at my outdoor club. Arriving 30 min. early usually results in a plastic coffee container over half full just picking them up off the berm.
Joe

[runfiverun]

hardcast refers to the use of antimony in the alloy....

[cbrick]

Is this is gas checked ? or not .., and what caliber ,or round of ammo ?
this just seems fast for a plain base medium hardness, boolit without a gas check at this velocity

Gas checked 308, 30-30, 7-08.

Bullet weights between 160 & 180 mostly with SR4759 between 18.0 & 19.5 gr, standard large rife primer.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

I think Elmer Keith started the "hard cast" nonsense without meaning too. When the 44 Magnum came along he wanted his bullets cast "hard". Hard for him mean a binary alloy of 1-16 tin to lead. That was hard compared to the traditional hanggun alloys of the day. But today it would be butter soft.

Ray Thompson when developing his gas check bullet for the 44 magnum found it has to be cast no softer than 1-20 (tin to lead) to prevent the bullets from collapsing due to the pressure. Again this is butter soft by today's standards.

So, the term "hard cast" entered the lexicon meaning something quite different that it does today.

Along came Lawrence/Taracorp who introduced it's "Magnum" alloy which was about as hard as old Lyman No. 2, but cheaper to make by reducing the tin content in favor of antimony.

It was this formula that all of the commercial casters latched on to and tagged it "hard cast" to ride on Keith's coattails. While it is just fine for full snort magnum handgun loads it is far to hard for loads at lower pressures.

Another generation has come and gone, and are now starting to figure out that "hard cast" as it is used to day, is most often too darn hard. They have gone back a couple of generations and rediscovered what Keith, Thompson and generations before them already knew about handgun alloys.

Commercial casters that use "hard cast" alloy, bevel base bullets and useless wax lubes have turned many shooters away from cast bullet due to their bad experience. Sometimes, they show up here seeking help.