progressive press?? witch if any??

[buck1]

Hello guys! I have been here on and off but my JOB is quite demanding and free time is a rare thing this past year or so.
But I am starting to get adjusted and casting , shooting , and reloading are my adictions and will be repressed no more!!

Any way I have always been a single stage RCBS RC man at least for the last 25-30 yrs (same press & its still fine).
But the progressive presses out there have been calling to me a bit.
Ive looked at the cast iron RCBS 2000, the RCBS piggie backs, and the ALUNIM hornady L-N-L-A-P .
The hornady is very apealing but its not cast iron, and the shellplate is kinda one size fits all. The RCBS2000 & piggie backs look to be cast iron but the shell plates are a new expence for each case head, and cost more than the hornady .
Also hornaday is throwing in 1000 condums for me to trade/break bbls in with.

I am looking for some feedback from progressive loaders.
- are the(some/ any) progressive presses capiable of quality uniform loading?
- What are your likes and dislikes about yours?
- I know very little about these and as always your help is highly valued, sought after and respected!!!

[C A Plater]

The only progressive I have is a Dillon Square Deal B and I am quite pleased with it. It is a pistol only press but for me that was perfect. I have it set up for .45 and 10mm and get a good production rate that helps keep me in ammo. When I get my new reloading room I plan to add a second one to do the small primer cases like .32 Mag., .357 and 9mm. The hunting grade stuff I do on a single stage Rockchucker like you with the rifle stuff. The only semi-auto rifle I have is an SKS and feed it surplus exclusively.

[Hunter]

I have a Hornady L-N-L progressive and I love it. The lock and load method for changing dies is quick and easy. I believe it to be the best progressive on the market. I also have another Hornady Pro-7 from about 1977 that still works great and a lock and load single stage.
You will need shell plate #1 for .45 ACP. For other cartridges you will need to change the shell plate but that is also pretty easy.

[Larry Gibson]

I have the Dillon Square Deal B for loading numerous pistol cartridges and a Dillon 550B for rifle cartridges and a couple esoteric pistol cartridges. The SDB is simple to operate and I can load 400-500 per hour once I get rolling. I really like the 550B as is it not so "automatic" and is versitile enough to load using various techniques. Have to mention I still use the single stage Pacific press I'e had for years. I also still use some Lee loaders, a couple Lyman tong tools and the Lee hand press.

It's hard to go wrong with Dillon press and they really stand behind their product.

Larry Gibson

[Dale53]

I've had a Dillon since the days of the 450. My current Dillon is the 550B and I can recommend it without reservation. I have it in many calibers. It only takes seconds to change it over unless it requires a primer change. Then, to change primers from large to small (or vice versa) it takes more like 10-15 minutes.

I can do 500 quality match loads an hour.

I use my RCBS Rockchucker for single station tasks (punch wads, severe case forming, etc). I also have a Lee Turret press for anytime I only want to experiment and make anywhere up to a couple of hundred of the same load (the Lee sets up in seconds for a caliber change including primer change).

The Dillon is just USER FRIENDLY, and yo u cannot say that about all progressive presses.

Dale53

[buck1]

You will need shell plate #1 for .45 ACP. For other cartridges you will need to change the shell plate but that is also pretty easy.

I missed that! I thought it was a universal plate!

Great info guys I will check out the dillon as well!

[ELFEGO BACA]

I recommend a Dillon 550B. I bought mine in the mid-80s and use it to reload a bunch of rifle and pistil calibers.

I even use it as a single stage press when loading black powder loads for my 45/70:)

[mike in co]

...if you buy two dillon 550's you can set up one in small primer and one in large, and then caliber changes become very quick.....

some of us are just plain evil ...........

yep two dillons, one lee turrret, one lyman turret, a lee classic single( for bench rest) and a ton of lee classic hand loaders.

mike

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I had a Dillon 550B. I sold it and bought a Hornady LnL. Frankly, neither the 550B or the RCBS Pro 2000 compare to the Lock N Load. The Lock N Load is much more comparable to a Dillon 650 speedwise, especially when both are equipped with a casefeeder. The Hornady LnL, like the 650 is automatic advance.

Before I say anything else, I want to say I'm comparing features, not press quality. All of the presses mentioned in this post are excellent quality and will give you a lifetime of service. All three companies provide excellent service. So I'm merely telling WHY I sold my 550 and bought a Hornady LnL.

Cast iron, when it comes to the larger progressives with compound linkage, is no advanctage. It just costs you more in shipping. What I suggest you look at is features for dollars spent.

So what features caused me to buy the LnL has over the others?

1. Automatic advance - significant speed advantage over manual advance - The 550 and RCBS 2000 are both manual advance. The 650 is automatic advance.
2. Ability to quickly change calibers - takes less than 5 minutes, typically about 3, to completely change calibers on a Hornady LnL. This includes setting up powder and doing a check of the powder measure with a scale.
3. Ability to change a single die without changing the others. For instance, changing from loading using a full length sizer die for your M1 Garand to a neck sizer for your Remington 700 without changing anything else about the press.
4. Quick and easy powder adjustment. The LnL has a cylinder type measure - with the addition of a micrometer stem, you record your powder setting in your reloading dope book and next time you load for that caliber, dial it in within seconds. Because of the flexibility of the powder measure, I've never had to buy another powder measure because of need. The one LnL powder measure has quickly taken care of all my needs. I've recently added some powder measures and another press, but not because I needed one, but because I wanted more "toys."
5. A powder measure that will handle any powder, from IMR4895 to W231 without a hitch.
6. Accurate powder measurement, regardless of powder used.
7. Glassy smooth primer feed.
8. Simple adjustments that stay adjusted after being done one time.
9. Cost - without the casefeeder, the Hornady LnL costs about the same as a Dillon 550, but performs on a par with a Dillon 650.

The only negative with the Hornady is if you add a casefeeder, it's expensive and drives your cost up to within a couple hundred dollars of a 650. But then, once you equip the Hornady with a casefeeder, you've got a machine that performs like a 650 with die change features and a powder measure that make the Hornady a bit more versatile and easy to use.

All that said, a progressive has a lot more going on than a single stage. All the above progressives run really well. But, if you don't set them up correctly, you will have problems, because they are machines. They may not have a motor, but they are a machine and require you set them up correctly. You do that, any of them will give you good performance.

I've told you what features caused me to buy the Hornady LnL. You have to figure out what features are important to you and pick a press that makes you happy, based on those features. All of those presses are top notch. All have good warranties. But they are all different, with different features. I suggest you read up on the features offered and don't sweat the cast iron vs. aluminum thing. As far as strength goes, I load 30.06 on my Hornady all day long and with my piddling around, going slow, working slowly, no extra primer tubes, no casefeeder, etc., I still can crank out 400 rounds an hour, including taking time for a sandwich, a drink and a couple trips to the john. I can do 650+ if I actually work at it. But I'm a piddler and like doing things deliberate.

I hope this helps,

Dave

[imashooter2]

Auto indexing is a significant safety feature in a progressive press. I would not have one without it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I've had my RC since 1980 and am very happy with it. I wouldn't fancy a piggy back unit unless I had an extra press. I think you'd be heading for trouble ripping it down all the time. I have had many Progressives over the years, Dillon, hornady and Lees. All have their strong points. I only have Lees at the moment. I have been studying presses for the past few years, planning to get a good set up when I retire (which I just did a fewmonths ago). I have decised on a LNL. Why? I load lots of different calibres and several loads/boolits in some of them, eg, 38Special, target load button nosed wadcutter and cowboy RNFP. Change setting on powder measure micrometer, twist out seating die and relace with one set up for new boolit, continue. With Dillon you just replace the whole toolhead or adjust the powder measure and bullet seater. The Dillon is a fine powder measure, but I found it not the easiest to adjust. With the LNL you can either drop out metering insert or just dial it in on the micrometer. great feature.

The only trouble is I have spent so much on guns lately, I have eroded my LNL account. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeoooot!

They are all quality items, all will serve you well. If you just wanted to load say 38s and 45s on you rprogressive, the Dillon would probably be the best with two toolheads, but if you are like me and have teh I gotta have one (at least) of everthing and have three different loads and bullets and I wanna load heaps of each each week, well the LNL seems to have a few advantages I feel.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I forget, if you are gonna get a witch to reload, can't she just wriggle her nose or use her wand for you? :D

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

buck1,

Some additiona comments based on your original post below


Hello guys! I have been here on and off but my JOB is quite demanding and free time is a rare thing this past year or so.
But I am starting to get adjusted and casting , shooting , and reloading are my adictions and will be repressed no more!!


Sounds famliar. A progressive or at minimum something like the Lee Classic Cast should be for you.

Any way I have always been a single stage RCBS RC man at least for the last 25-30 yrs (same press & its still fine).

But kinda tough on those limited hours, the original reason I bought a progressive.

But the progressive presses out there have been calling to me a bit.
Ive looked at the cast iron RCBS 2000, the RCBS piggie backs, and the ALUNIM hornady L-N-L-A-P .

I think were I you, I'd forget the piggy backs. Some folks like them, but they aren't the easiest things to deal with and require tinkering to keep running right, which eats into your reloading time.



The hornady is very apealing but its not cast iron, and the shellplate is kinda one size fits all. The RCBS2000 & piggie backs look to be cast iron but the shell plates are a new expence for each case head, and cost more than the hornady .

Having used both Dillon and Hornady progressives, particularly the Dilllon 650 and Hornady LnL, I can tell you either one will smoke the RCBS 2000 from a rounds per hour standpoint. Both are aluminum, but are also steel where they need to be. I wouldn't get caught up, when it comes to progressives, with cast iron. In progressives I've found a solid design and automatic advance to be more important by far than cast iron. If the cast iron gained you anything, it would be important, but all it does is add weight. A solid, stable bench is by far more important.

Also hornaday is throwing in 1000 condums for me to trade/break bbls in with.

Nothing like a little candy to sweeten up a deal, is there?

I am looking for some feedback from progressive loaders.
- are the(some/ any) progressive presses capiable of quality uniform loading?

I'm loading minute of angle 30.06 loads on my Hornady LnL. I an't tell any difference in these loads and the ones I've loaded on a single stage in the past when I was loading for high power. BTW, the cylinder type measure of the Hornady LnL is very accurate and dispenses powder much like my Redding BR30, but seems more consistent due to the case activation powder drop, which takes my hand operation variation of the powder measure out of the calculation. So I'm getting a bit less powder variation than I was by hand.

- What are your likes and dislikes about yours?

I listed most of my likes in the other posts. About the only thing I dislike is the speed at which reloading components get consumed. I wish I had a casefeeder and I don't like the fact it's expensive to add. That said, it's faster than I can afford to buy components for now.

My old 550, I didn't like the manual advance nor did I like the time it took to setup the powder measure and the fact the toolhead caused me to take a lot of time moving a powder measure from toolhead to toolhead. I liked the fact it loaded quality, consisitent ammo and was reliable.

- I know very little about these and as always your help is highly valued, sought after and respected!!!

[dragonrider]

I load with 4 progressives, two Lees, a Rock Chucker with piggy back unit, and a Dillon 650. The Lees are entry level machines and require attention to detail. The piggy back is very smooth operating and consistant. The Dillon is all of that and more, once set I just crank the handle until I need to fill powder, primers or cases.
I would reccommend any of the Dillons first.

[Poygan]

If, perchance, you would see a RCBS Green Machine on ebay, do not, repeat, do not be tempted to bid. It could sour you on progressives forever!

[garandsrus]

Buck,

I have used a Dillon 550 for several years and many thousands of rounds. It works great... Caliber changes just take a few minutes. I have a number of tool heads but until recently, only one powder measure.

I recently got a Dillon 650 with case feeder. It is REALLY nice. I especially like it when doing rifle brass prep. Just load the cases into the hopper and pull the handle! You can size a bunch of cases in an hour without having to stop to handle any of them.

Dillon sends boh units with a normal bolt head that requires a wrench for the powder measure adjustment. It is a hassle to adjust. I found a knob at Home Depot that fits over the bolt in a press fit that allows me to adjust the measure by hand. This makes the adjustments pretty quick. If you want to, you can screw the measure closed and mark "12 o clock" on the knob. Then, just count turns and the final position of the mark to get to your powder setting. It's certainly not as accurate as a micrometer, but it gets you pretty close.

I haven't seen recent statistics, but in the past, it seemed like about 90% + of the big time pistol competitors loaded on Dillon equipment. A lot of competitive rifle guys load on Dillon's also. David Tubbs (multi time National champion in High Power and Silhouette) loads on a Dillon 550. He has modified it somewhat and talks about it in his books.

John

[dromia]

Just to echo all that Dave said in his post about the Hornady LnL.

A great, top specification progressive with all the features you'd ever want.

I've cranked out near 3,000 rounds of 6.5 Swedish on mine over the past 18months and its never missed a beat.

I use the RCBS Ammomaster progressive for .303", I've had that for 10 years and its churned out 10s of thousands of rounds both pistol and rifle without any problem, shame RCBS stopped making them or I'd have got another one.

[Ranch Dog]

I have the Lee Loadmaster but just don't favor progressive reloading even for my auto pistol stuff. I like my Lee turret with the Auto-Index for progressive reloading. I see a lot of negative posts about this Lee press but mine went up and to work without a squak. I have a friend that bought one and was having problems so I went and looked at it and had it spitting out ammo in a couple minutes. I use all the features including bullet feeders and it works without a hitch. It is just a bit boring is all, kind of like watching the washing machine wash your clothes.

[mike in co]

3. Ability to change a single die without changing the others. For instance, changing from loading using a full length sizer die for your M1 Garand to a neck sizer for your Remington 700 without changing anything else about the press.
.


Dave

sorry...but dave i dont see this as an issue....same can be done on a dillon...did i miss something ??

and caliber change is about 5 min on the dillon if same size primer.

mike

[9.3X62AL]

I've posted this a few times in the past--so those who have seen it before can just go to the next post/thread.

My sitch may differ from that of many members here--I load a LOT of calibers, but not a large volume of any single chambering--usually no more than 300 or so. I wanted to streamline and speed up the loading process with handgun ammo, but some of my calibers have no shell plate available--and I already had a large investment in single stage dies.

In 1999 I stumbled across a Ponsness-Warren P-200 press, and gave it a try. I haven't looked back. This is a sort of turret press, but the tool head remains stationary while a pivot arm with detent stops moves under each die station. The tool uses single-stage shell holders and dies, as well as powder measure. It has an auto primer feed available if desired (I don't use it). There is also a rifle-sized machine available. Ponsness-Warren is better known for their shotshell machines, but I have been VERY happy with my P-200.

www.reloaders.com

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

sorry...but dave i dont see this as an issue....same can be done on a dillon...did i miss something ??

and caliber change is about 5 min on the dillon if same size primer.

mike

Yes, you missed something. With the Hornady LnL bushings, this can be done with a simple twist and click of your hand. No wrench, no unscrewing the die and screwing it back in. Takes exactly 2-3 seconds, literally. One second to remove the individual die, one second put one down, pick the other up and one second to twist the third die in. The rest of the dies stay on the press and there's no chance of the lock ring loosening or the die coming out of adjustment.

Makes the die very easy to change and extremely convenient. A small time saver, but a very nice one. You have to try it out to truly understand the convenience it provides.

The changeover time I quoted included changing over every single thing, including primer size swap.

Dave

[omgb]

Love my L-N-L for all the reasons posted here. I had a Lee (:( ) didn't care for all of the fussing. I tried a Dillon and noted it was a very very good press. however, it was not so much better than the L-N-L in any single area that I would pay more for it or the accessories. So, I went with the L-N-L and haven't looked back.

[DLCTEX]

Nobody has posted a source for the witch. Personally I don't recomend them. I fell under one"s spell once, but when I awoke the next morning the spell was broken and I slipped away while she slept. Dale

[Four Fingers of Death]

Dave in Flowery.......

Great way of answering a multiple point question, well done. Mick.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

4fingermick,

Thank you, I enjoy your postings as well. I'm often amazed at your nack for finding some darn nice rifles and I enjoy looking at the pics.

Regards,

Dave

[mike in co]

i see , said the blind man....

mike

[buck1]

Thanks guys!!! All this info is a great help!!
I must admit when I look at the pics in the books, all that stuff hanging off those press is rather spookie!! (Thats where the witch must have come from!) :)
I have to do some price checking but I am leaning in the direction of the Hornady.
But I have only ruled out the piggie backs and the 2000 for sure. That suprises me as I am die hard RCBS. But They may still need a bit of R&D to get theres up to snuff??
And theres something kinda classie about the Ponsness-Warren rig that I cant quite shake.
BUT now I can make a informed choice!! Yall came through for me again! And I thank everyone very much!! .....Buck

[buck1]

i see , said the blind man....

mike
My 9 year old walked by and saw your post, and without a hitch said......

"One bright day ,
in the middle of the night,
two dead men,
got up to fight,
back to back,
they faced each other,
drew their swords ,
and shot each other,
if you dont belive ,
what I say is true,
ask the blind man ,
he saw it too,,"


LOL!!

[BD]

If you are truely loading high volumes of pistola ammo, ( feeding an IPSC or IDPA habit?), then the real choice is between the Dillon 650 and the Hornady L-N-L. The older Dillons or the Hornady Pro-Jector will do as well, although hand indexing the dillons is a PITA and a hazard IMO. None of the Lees will last, and none of the RCBS units will keep up. The Red and the Blue both have their proponents, but either will do it. One aside. Although either will load ball powders into rifle cases for general purpose ammo, IMHO neither will really cut it loading long stick powders in the .223 for high power, (varget, 4895). To get enough Varget in the case accurately requires a Belding & Mull measure with a drop tube, and no ones figured out how to rig that set up on a progessive yet as far as I know. BD

[snuffy]

If you are truely loading high volumes of pistola ammo, ( feeding an IPSC or IDPA habit?), then the real choice is between the Dillon 650 and the Hornady L-N-L. The older Dillons or the Hornady Pro-Jector will do as well, although hand indexing the dillons is a PITA and a hazard IMO. None of the Lees will last, and none of the RCBS units will keep up. The Red and the Blue both have their proponents, but either will do it. One aside. Although either will load ball powders into rifle cases for general purpose ammo, IMHO neither will really cut it loading long stick powders in the .223 for high power, (varget, 4895). To get enough Varget in the case accurately requires a Belding & Mull measure with a drop tube, and no ones figured out how to rig that set up on a progessive yet as far as I know. BD

Well then look at this;


Here's my dillon XL650 with the Hornady case activated powder die, with the Hornady measure. I use varget to load 69 grain nosler j-4 match bullets. The loads shoot as good as my bushy 20" shoots any other match bullets. The factory 1-9 bbl is NOT a match BBL, but will do a 3/4 inch group on occasion. it doesn't matter if I weigh each charge or use the measure. Of course when I load blasting ammo, I use WC-844 which flows through the measure like water!

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/dillon%20.223.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/image7.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/image2_2.jpg

I usually load over a thousand of each bullet weight I shoot while I'm set-up on a given caliber. The top 2/3 of the powder die comes off with two screws so you can move it to another tool head IF you have another base die. I use the dillon measures for pistol rounds.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

IMHO neither will really cut it loading long stick powders in the .223 for high power, (varget, 4895). To get enough Varget in the case accurately requires a Belding & Mull measure with a drop tube, and no ones figured out how to rig that set up on a progessive yet as far as I know. BD

I have no clue about the performance or behavior of a Belding and Mull measure, but I do know I reload 30.06 on my Hornady with a LnL measure using IMR 4895 and a 175 grain bullet. If I do my part prepping the brass, the rounds will group right in at MOA at a hundred yards without any drama in my tuned-by-Hook Boudin M1 Garand.


I remember shooting one High Power reduced target practice range. My spotter that day was a shooter on the Georgia High Power Rifle Team. During a sitting position stage, I squeazed off the first two rounds and he made some funny excited noise. I reloaded and squeezed off the next eight and he muttered. Turned out the first two rounds were touching and the next eight were also touching, but not in the same location. He send another team member forward to change out my target while he gave me a thorough coaching job in rebuilding my position. I was left feeling like I'd gotten his attention as having potential.

Unfortunately, that's about the time period when my ex-wife (second one) decided she's start going off the deep end and I went through a divorce. Kinda ruined my High Power career at that point.

Dave

[fourarmed]

In using the progressives to load .308 or .30-'06 and the like, how do you deal with the case lube?

[dromia]

I use Lee collet neck sizing dies on brass fireformed and batched to the rifle.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I use a wax based case lube such as Hornady One shot. Doesn't affect the powder like RCBS and other oil based case lubes do.

If the brass is going to need trimming, I insert only the full length resizer only into the press, process the brass through very quickly that way and then trim the brass off the press. Once trimmed, I have the option of either tumbling it to remove the lube or to leave it on.

I've never felt the waxy surface was a big deal because most of it was gone through handling long before I made it to the range and loaded it into a rifle.

Hope this makes sense.

Dave

[Uncle R.]

In using the progressives to load .308 or .30-'06 and the like, how do you deal with the case lube?

I've often wondered about that myself. I've never actually used a progressive - loaded tens of thousands of rounds over the years on a single stage RCBS press.
I can see where a progressive makes a lot of sense for a high-volume pistol shooter. The straight-sided pistol cases practically never need trimming (at least after the first time) and carbide eliminates the need for case lube. Loading bottleneck rifle cases without checking the length of each sized case strikes me as a little scary - and even dry or wax case lubes can increase the bolt thrust when fired if not removed. It may not be a major safety hazard but I still prefer that my rifles get fed clean brass cases.
I suppose I could resize on my single stage, check length and trim if required, and tumble clean to remove the lube. Heck, might as well clean the primer pocket since it only takes two seconds each - and then finish out the loading of my prepared cases on a progressive press. Frankly, it doesn't sound like I'd be saving all that much time.
:roll:
I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ (Honest!) but how DO you deal with case length and lube issues?

[doc25]

I have the lee loadmaster and hate the priming. The powder measure works best with something like h-110. Other than the priming it is a good press. Once I get it set up (I've loaded over 5k on it) right it'll be the cats ass. Cost was a major factor for me and I shoot IPSC and use this to load my ammo.

[rmb721]

I have a Hornady L-N-L AP. When I load rifle shells on it, I just put in the sizing die and run all the cases through and let them fall into the shell container. Then I wipe casaes,clean primer pockets, trim and chamfer cases and prime cases on RCBS bench mounted auto primer. Then on the L-N-L press, if loading cast bullets, I flair necks with a Lee Univ. case expanding die in the first station where the sizing die usually is. Powder measure in second station. Powder check die (RCBS) in third station. Seating die in fourth station. Lee factory crimp die in fifth station. This is my procedure for 30/30.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Uncle R,

Let's think about this a minute and see how it goes. See answers in context below.


I've often wondered about that myself. I've never actually used a progressive - loaded tens of thousands of rounds over the years on a single stage RCBS press.

So you're a fairly efficient single stage handloader and that's your perspective you're coming from. But let's look at things from a different perspective. Let's pick the perceptive of a manufacturer trying to make some production.

I can see where a progressive makes a lot of sense for a high-volume pistol shooter. The straight-sided pistol cases practically never need trimming (at least after the first time) and carbide eliminates the need for case lube.

So no need to look at reloading for pistol.

Loading bottleneck rifle cases without checking the length of each sized case strikes me as a little scary - and even dry or wax case lubes can increase the bolt thrust when fired if not removed.

You're making the assumption case length is not checked. This is an incorrect assumption. When reloading rifle cases progressively, one should also check case length after resizing. But how? Doesn't this slow down production? Yes, it can, but like a manufacturer who is trying to produce a product, I use a quality control method called "batch sampling." This allows me to evaluate the length of my resized brass to a safe degree of assurance without checking every single case. This sampling method allows one to reload brass progressively while doing it safely.

About the wax coating on the brass. It's a known fact many manufacturer's of steel cased rounds coat them with a polymer coating to improve feeding. If one measures full length resized brass and neck sized brass (fired in the same rifle) when measured with or without a light coating of wax do not measure significantly different in dimensions. If the chamber of the rifle is a match chamber, it may make a difference. But with a standard chamber, the wax doesn't affect the dimensions enough to matter. In addition the wax acts as a lubricant, just as it does in bullet lube. Since most of it's worn off through handling by the time the ammo gets to the range, it's pretty much a non issue. I'm not sure how much or what lube you use, but I use a wax and keep it really thin.

It may not be a major safety hazard but I still prefer that my rifles get fed clean brass cases.

Now this is a personal choice and can't help you with that, but it can be wiped off without much trouble.

I suppose I could resize on my single stage, check length and trim if required, and tumble clean to remove the lube. Heck, might as well clean the primer pocket since it only takes two seconds each - and then finish out the loading of my prepared cases on a progressive press. Frankly, it doesn't sound like I'd be saving all that much time.

So let's think about that from a production perspective again. If you use a progressive instead of a single stage to do what you just described, you can cut the hand motion from the process, because progressives have automatic eject. This reduces the amount of time to resize brass by a factor of about 33%, a significant time savings over a progressive.

If one trims on a Giraud, Gracey, RCBS or Lyman power trimmer, trim time is greatly reduced. One can also opt to use a Dillon on the press power trimer to trim cases with. It's fast, does a good job and it's right on the press. Even has a vacuum setup to clean off the brass particles. So with it, you can full length resize and trim right on the press.

Then finally, once trimming is done, you're back on the press to prime, drop powder, seat bullet, crimp if need be. All of this is done automatically as you pull the press handle. You just need to feed brass and bullets to the machine. Each operation that you don't do by hand represents a percentage of savings. They all add up to significant amounts of savings in time. When I reloaded single stage, I could spend 4-6 hours a week reloading enough cartridges for a highpower match. With a progressive, I can reload enough cartridges for several matches in two hours or so. That, my friend, is a significant savings over a single stage.


I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ (Honest!) but how DO you deal with case length and lube issues?

I've answered your question above. It takes a shift in viewpoint to see a progressive as a machine designed for production to go further beyond the point I've described. Kinda like some buggy makers realized adding a motor to their buggys increased the speed the buggy could go over a horse. That kinda thinking.

I do my reloading once a month and spend more of my time doing other things I like, such as loving on my old lady or casting or some other project.

Regards,

Dave

[BruceB]

My case lube is the Frankford Arsenal spray-bottle stuff. It works great.

Loading rifle cases on my 550, all the brass is sprayed and placed in a plastic bin. The rounds are loaded in the progressive manner, and I end up with a bin-full (or more) of ammunition which still has lube on the brass.

I inspect every round and also test each round in a case gauge before boxing it. The gauge clearly shows me if any case is too long, and it's VERY RARE (like, almost never) to find a case longer than normal. Any that are will be put aside for later attention.

Each round is wiped with a rag containing some solvent before it goes into the case gauge.

So, the final step of gauging covers the testing of proper over-all cartridge dimensions as well as both checking case length and de-lubing. Most rounds which fail to fit flush in the gauge have a burr on the rim from the extractor or ejector in my autoloaders. A needle file makes short work of that problem.

[garandsrus]

Uncle R,

I have reloaded thousands of High Power Rifle cartridges on a Dillon 550B with very good results.

Brass is run through the press twice as other people have said. The first time resizes them and the second time loads the cartridge. I handle the case once to put it in the press.

I tumble the lube off the brass. I also have a Modified Gracey (Giraud cutter and more powerful motor) for 30-06 and .223 (same unit, different shell holders) and it is much faster to trim (or attemt to) each case than it is to gague it to see if it needs to be trimmed. The time to trim, inside and outside chamfer is about 4 seconds per case. This is the second time I handle the case.

The third time is when I put the case in the press to load it. I remove any tumbling media in the case (universal decapping die) and prime (station 1), drop the powder (station 2), if I am going to load a lead rifle bullet I will expand the case mouth next (station 3) and then seat/crimp in station 4. I don't crimp rifle rounds very often. Straight walled rounds are belled in station 2 while dumping powder.

I handle each case three times. If I were using a single stage press, I would need to handle each case two times PER OPERATION, or a total of about 10 times. The case handling is reduced to 3/10 of what a manual press would be.

If you purchase a Dillon 650 (or equivalent) with a case feeder, which I recently did, you only need to handle each case once, when trimming! With the Dillon trimmer you wouldn't need to handle the case at all unless you wanted to debur it. There are some people shooting High Power that expand the case a little instead of chamfering it when loading Jacketed bullets.

I purchase the 650 partly to resize brass quickly. Checking the brass with a RCBS Precision Mic shows that the brass is very consistent. All I need to do is pull the handle... If you figure four second per pull, that is 900 pieces of brass per hour.

I do have a single stage RCBS press that I use on occasion for special operations such as pulling bullets. etc. and wouldn't want to be without it.

If I had a rifle that I didn't plan to shoot much (is there such a thing?) I might not purchase the $50 or so conversion kit for the progressive press and just load single stage. I think Dillon has a similar business model as the ink jet printer companies, they give you a pretty good deal on the press and make their money on conversion kits.

John

[longhorn]

Only prgressive I've ever used is my Dillon 650. Many, many thousands of handgun rounds with never a mechanical problem. I don't have a case feeder, and I've loaded 400 in an hour without hurrying. Be careful with primer tubes!

[BD]

The issue with the .223 and varget or 4895 in my experience has been getting enough powder in the case. I'm shooting 24.5 grains of Varget under the 77 grain SMK. I've always needed a drop tube to get it in there with enough room left to seat the bullet to mag length without leaving a seating ring. I've tried dropping this charge from my RCBS measure and my hornady measure with some success. I even bought the case activated powder drop rig and put it on the Pro-Jector for awhile. However, the Belding & Mull operated with care will measure these stick powders more accurately than either of my scales can discern, and that makes a great load. Unfortunately, where I'm currently living its several hours drive to the nearest reasonable rifle range, and my eyesight is getting worse each year so my highpower days are probably past. I'm thinking seriously of flat topping the DCM and putting some glass on it for coyotes in my "golden years". It sure is a shooter. BD

[BD]

"I remember shooting one High Power reduced target practice range. My spotter that day was a shooter on the Georgia High Power Rifle Team. During a sitting position stage, I squeazed off the first two rounds and he made some funny excited noise. I reloaded and squeezed off the next eight and he muttered. Turned out the first two rounds were touching and the next eight were also touching, but not in the same location. He send another team member forward to change out my target while he gave me a thorough coaching job in rebuilding my position. I was left feeling like I'd gotten his attention as having potential. "

I know how you feel Dave. I snow shoed out onto the range one sunny March day in Maine with a good friend of mine to work up some high power loads. He was working up surplus 4895 and I was playing with Varget. We were shooting off the bench at 100 yards for load work up, and taking turns spotting each other. When I hit 24.5 grains of Varget under the 77 grain SMK Matt started swearing under his breath about the third shot and then swearing out loud and calling me names after shots 4 and 5. I had to quit and have a look through the scope. I'd shot a nice .5 diameter hole. I went back to it and shot another group of 5 under .5 inch but about 3/8" to the right. I kept that target. It's far and away the best iron sight shootin' I've ever done. Of course 200 yards standing, no sling, is an entirely different story. And these days at 600 I'm guessing as much as sightin'. BD

[snuffy]

I use RCBS case slick spray lube, it does NOT affect powder or primers. That said, I spray a bunch of cases to be loaded on the 650 machine pictured in my earlier post. Dumped in a plastic bowl, squirted and tumbeld around, they are ready to be loaded, They are dumped in the case feeder, then run through the entire process.

These cases are all measured to be sure they are not too long before being lubed, trimmed if necessary. After loading is complete, they go in the tumbler in clean new corncob for a 10-15 minute tumble or until the lube is gone. Last time I touch them is to guage them all before boxing them up.

[Uncle R.]

This has been a very interesting thread. My loading has always been for lots of different calibers, and usually in batches of 50 or 100 rounds. I've never really felt the need for a progressive press for metallics although I've used one for shotshells for a long time with great satisfaction.
My emphasis for rifle ammo has usually been accuracy and I confess that I've long held the attitude that progressives were fine for people who wanted lots of ammo but didn't care much about performance. Obviously that's unwarranted at least in some cases.
:roll:
For the first time ever I'm faced with an upcoming requirement for many hundreds (thousands? :-D ) of rounds of ammo for a prairie dog shoot this year and loading that much will be a daunting task using my usual methods. There may be a progressive in my future after all. I'm unwilling to sacrifice even a scintilla of accuracy just to get quantity, but based on what I'm reading here I may not have to.
This is a great forum - and I'm learning again!
:-D
Uncle R.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

For the first time ever I'm faced with an upcoming requirement for many hundreds (thousands? of rounds of ammo for a prairie dog shoot this year and loading that much will be a daunting task using my usual methods. There may be a progressive in my future after all. I'm unwilling to sacrifice even a scintilla of accuracy just to get quantity, but based on what I'm reading here I may not have to.
This is a great forum - and I'm learning again!
Uncle R.

Uncle R,

I think you'll be quite happy with the accuracy of the rounds you get from any of the progressives if you follow the thinking and processes most have outlined with their accuracy reloading processes in their progressives. I would suggest though, before you make a purchase decision, you think about which powder you are going to use and buy a press based on which one's powder measure best handles the powder you wish to use in your cartridge you most want to load quanties of.

Also, if you're used to using a Uniflow or similar powder measure, I'd stick with that in a progressive. I used to use a Redding BR30 for my single stage reloading, so I went with a Hornady LnL AP because the Hornady's powder measure is very much like the Redding in operation. I did add the micrometer insert to maximize those similarities. I also have since added a Uniflow, for the same reasons. It worked well for me.

Things to think about when looking at a progressive. Also realize that automatic advance is always faster than a similar quality press with manual advance and the more things you can automate, the faster the press will be.

Regards,

Dave