Did it happen ?

[greywuuf]

Ok guys,
I have been schooled and I am not going to be building an authentic Hawken.
I am however still thinking, Did guys back then modify their own weapons. I have to imagine that actual fur trappers and "mountain men" did not just run down to the local fort, and rendezvous was only a yearly thing. Are there any examples of locally carved stocks, mismatched locks and sights .. stuff like that. I can imagine a guy with a French trade gun with a busted cock would be mighty interested in making the lock from a bent barreled military musket work. There are to many examples of that kinda thing in the Alaska gold fields with everything from Tractors to mining equipment the dog sleds.

were guns back then ( as some people think today ) the realm of "professional's and some sorta magic and no one worked on them ?

Interested and researching in Alaska

[NickSS]

I have seen some that have had broken stocks repaired with raw hide and I am sure that there were others that were repaired when necessary but they probably were further repaired when a gun smith was available to put them in good condition. Except for stock repairs and sights I have never seen an old gun that was tinkered up.

[rhbrink]

I'll bet that all manner of repairs were done when someone was out in the wilderness to keep your weapon working it was your life afterall. But one thing that I have noticed over the years when talking to "old timers" that most guns either shot True or not if it didn't you traded it off for something that would. I don't think that there was much tinkering as we do today or load developement or even sight adjustment for that manner.

Richard

[excess650]

Yes, it happened. You WILL find original rilfes that have had the barrels shortened at the muzzle or breech, or BOTH because the the muzzle was worn and the breech erroded from considerable use. Replacement locks or repaired locks were common. Old parts from broken rifles were often used to build or repair rifles. Remember, this was back in the day of "made by hand" and not mass produced. <edit: most modifications were done by gunsmiths>

As percussion ignition became more common, flint locks were converted as evidenced by the extra holes left in the lock plates. Most of these were done as drum and nipple type conversion.

Schimmels were very plain and were either made by non-professionals, or else cobbled together from old parts.

Canoe gun? A shortened trade gun or musket?

Relief carving was usually done by the gunsmith while building the rifle. Its possible that some owners incise carved or etched the metal on their weapons, but I think scrimshawing their powder horns might have been more common. Indians added tacks and beads and such to their personal weapons.

[excess650]

I see that TOW doesn't have much of anything in stock. Petaconica's site leaves a bit to be desired. Take a look at Jim Chamber's site as he offers kits. His large bore kits at the Virginia rifle, Edward Marshall/Christian springs, and English sporting rifle http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm

Dunlap woodcrafts also has kits http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/ComponentSets/

I like Petaconica's Virginia rifle stock dimensions. I liked it enough that I talked them into inletting one for a Rice .62 Jaeger barrel. Yeah, its a mutt, but it shoulders, points, handles, carries like a dream...

Isaac Haines would be considered "early Lancaster" as would Dickert or JP Beck. Transitional Kentucky, Christian Springs, and "Edward Marshall" are similar to each other. Jaegers are similar to the transitional, but shorter. Virginia or early Virginia are similar to early Lancaster. Chamber's English sporting looks like a combination of Jaeger and fowler.

I have stuff from Petaconica and Dunlap, so know they provide good stuff. I would have no fear of Chambers.

As for wood, while maple is most common, walnut would have been more appropriate for Jaegers or English guns. The inventories at Christian Springs included blanks of maple, walnut, and birch! While few pre-revolutionalry period rifles still exist, you can bet that walnut would have been used. Cherry and ash were also used by some makers, but I dislike cherry because of its tendancy to splinter and chip.

I'm offering examples of what I would want (or have) only because I have handled many original and contemporary rifles. My preference is for the earlier, larger caliber rifles and their stock configurations. As time went on, rifles became gaudy with inlays and architecture was bastardized with looong straight barrels that didn't balance well, were heavy because of small calibers, and lots of drop. Some of them are nice to look at but handle like a plugged sewer pipe.

If you still want a "Hawken" and may want to shoot conicals, look into the Lyman Great Plains with faster twist. If you can be happy with a PRB, their slower twist should fit the bill. You will find these less $$ than building a custom.

[Ajax]

There is a company called sitting fox muzzleloaders. STAY AWAY from them. ordered a kit from them and had a professional build it so far we had bad wood (bark inclusion), cracked stock, bad lock, wrong trigger guard and trigger. The only thing we havent had a problem with yet is the green mtn barrel. For further infor mation refer to this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=127351


Andy

[excess650]

greywuuf,
Are you going to have access to real blackpowder? All of this talk of flintlocks is useless if you don't have real BP.

[greywuuf]

yes, BP is available ( seasonal) there is a SAS society and a trekker group up here that brings in a shipment a couple times a year. only worth doing in pallet sized loads as it comes barge and you are charges by area as well as weight. shipping anything up here is a real PITA.

[405]

Did it ever happen?.... modify their own?.... From the odds and ends originals I've seen, yes they did. But I would imagine more to fix something that was broken than to do the endless tinkering we seem to do today. I've seen some pretty badly cobbled up old originals. There were very few correct tools around much less parts diagrams or assembly instructions or correct spare parts. Bubba been around probably since H. erectus :) Pretty interesting to look at old original, completely scratch built guns. Most aren't very pretty but many are very functional.

[greywuuf]

ok, I think the final outcome is I will be voted off the island, and I don't care.
I think I made my mistake when I said Hawken. there seems to be too much holywood hype brought to this one brand name and to many people that know better were rubbed the wrong way by that.

I have decided that at some point I am going to build a flint lock of no discernible lineage, and base the looks on a "half stock plains rifle" I will likely use a Siler lock because he has a set of percussion and flintlocks that fit the same inletting. other than having a straight wrist and generally straight lines I have no delusions of ever referring to it as a Hawken knock off or Hawken like "

and just to be contrary I am doing my First build with a hooked breech . I am not even sure it will be a rifle, I am seeing some things to like about a smoothbore, it might get used as a small game gun more that way ( with shot)

So basically I am playing trapper dude whose cabin burned down and left him the remnants of a trade gun flinter, but liked the way his buddies Hawken Looked.


plus he cant find no good firewood 42" long


Cheap ugly but functional... suites me fine

besides most of the "repro" guys out there are sporting guns containing little to NO hand forged wrought iron anyway, (and yes I know the difference as I have forged both steel and wrought iron) so if I upset their sensibilities I guess I will just have to deal with it :-p

[rhbrink]

Go for it, it doesn't have to please anybody but yourself. And I bet that there were plenty of weapons made out of just whatever was available, burnt, broke, horse stepped on, rolled over, used as a club you name it, it could have all happened and probably did.

Richard

[405]

Wud dat be uh TC Hokin or wona em Cabelers Hokins? :mrgreen:
:kidding:

If you have a Siler lock you're more than 1/4 of the way there. Add a trigger- then it's just a matter of taste in caliber, barrel type and length and type of stock. What's nice about a parts gun is that you can get exactly what you want and check and modify a little as you go. By far the most tedious part is getting the wood inletted and fitted to where all the parts end up in the correct postion. I'd seriously consider getting at least a partially inletted stock to start with (some come with only the barrel channel inletted- which is the hardest part) as long as the inletting fairly closely matches. NO matter what style it ends up, you can look at it and say, "I built that- that's my style!" Huge satisfaction in doing things that way.

BTW- While not HC in all cases I do like hooked breech MLs- sure makes cleaning easier.

[Dean D.]

Who are you building this rifle for? Your self. So, build whatever turns your crank! ;) Nobody but you needs to be happy with the final product.

I think most of the earlier comments about Hawken style rifles were just to point out the fact that they are much more difficult to build as a first build, not that it couldn't be done.

Good luck whatever you decide!

[excess650]

Your latest idea sounds like a Mortimer http://www.dixiegunworks.com/popup_image.php?pID=991&osCsid=db91d2ad183eddaf19d6375af589f5e2

or a TC New Englander converted to flint http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/253347/

its about halfway down the page.

The TC New Englander was made with both rifled barrels and 12ga shotgun barrels, and barrels are interchangeable. A .54 shooting a maxi-ball would easily tip over a moose, and the 12ga good for rabbits and winged game. I have a 12ga barrel for mine and it shoots impressive patterns at 35 yards with 1-1/4 to 1-3/8oz shot with the full choke tube.

[thunderthud]

Greywulf, yeah, it happened frequently, see my album on this site (rifle pics) its an Haines "kit" from Chambers I built, finished , engraved , & carved. in .54 cal. , Sorry, its sold.
I can build to suit.

[gnoahhh]

My take on it is that although rifles from the Hawken shop were the gold standard at the time, they were actually well in the minority of guns actually used on the frontier. Kind of like the high end rifles we all lust after today but which few can afford. I think you would have found a lot of cobbled together stuff, trade guns, ex-military guns, and fowlers (shotguns). The romance of last-generation movies like "Jeremiah Johnson" and the marketing efforts of Thompson Center in the 70's did as much to promulgate the myth of the Hawken as anything.

If Mr. Peabody and Sherman invited me into their Wayback Machine for a fur trade adventure, and I were limited to taking one gun, I would take along a 12 gauge double barrel percussion shotgun and a boatload of round balls for close range big game, and bird shot for filling the pot. I suspect a lot of guys did that very thing.

[thunderthud]

most of the rifles carried west were flintlocks, If you lost your caps , you're done. Percussion caps were a new fangled thing at that time. A piece of flint, agate , chert or other stone would suffice in an emergency. Like Gnoahhh sez, the Hawken myth is just that , a myth. they produced fine rifles but very limited production. H. Leman and Philip Gemmer were two that sent vast numbers of "trade rifles" west.