Neck sizing tool question

[offshore44]

(Posted in two places on the forum...is that a faux pas?)

I have been fiddling around with shooting paper patched out of my 8mm Mauser, with good success. It appears to be time to get serious about it.

I need to size my case necks to about 0.323", or a little less (TBD) for the paper patched boolits to fit correctly. The neck size "as shot" is 0.324" plus a very little. The Redding Neck sizer that I have sizes the neck to 0.312" without the expander and the expander ball opens it back up to 0.321". Ideally, I would just size to 0.323" or there-abouts and load away. I have found a competition neck sizer that has different sized bushings that could work, but it is kinda out of my price range at the moment.

The question is: Where can I find a Redding expander ball, or a substitute, that will size my case necks to the size I want that is cheap enough to be a throw away if it is the wrong size? If I had a lathe, it would be a no-brainer. I'd just make several in different sizes to get where I needed to be. Once I get the correct size identified, I plan on honing out my neck sizing die to minimize working the brass to much...

Oh, I shoot gas checked out of this rifle as well as paper patched, so I would end up with two different neck sizer dies. That's kinda besides the point of this discussion though. This rifle is gloriously accurate with both kinds of cast boolits, which is why I am pursuing that last little bit accuracy.

Thanks for the ideas!

[offshore44]

Edited to add: I could try different brass I guess, I'm using Winchester brass at the moment that tends to run on the thinner side. Hmmm...I have some .30-06 brass... Experiment time!

[geargnasher]

The best thing to do is not rely on the expander to drag it back out, but to not size the neck too small in the first place. See if Lee makes a Collet Sizing Die in that caliber, it uses a collet similar to the rifle factory crimp dies which is adjustable, so you can size the neck to just the ID you want, from none all the way down to nominal copper-bullet sizes. The die set is less than $30 with shipping from most places.

Gear

[offshore44]

Thanks Gear...good idea. I pulled out some Lake City military '06 brass that I'm going to play with as well. Did 5 so far just for giggles and only pulled the rim off of one so far. If that works out, I'll keep those for my "accuracy" loads.

[offshore44]

OK, there is more than one correct solution to most problems in this world!

Given that:
I have a bunch of different .30-06 brass that I've picked up over the last six months.
Brass thickness varies by manufacturer to manufacturer.
I only need a couple of thousandths of an inch to not need to resize the 8mm brass for the 24\47.
I would prefer not to resize my brass at all for paper patching.
Brass thickness varies on the length of a cartridge case.
It's easy to make 8mm Mauser brass from .30-06 brass.
I don't have a .30-06.
I'd rather not modify my reloading dies, if I don't have to.
I'm really cheap (or broke) depending on who you talk to.
Neck tension requirements for feeding from the magazine are rather minimal in the Mauser with the loads I'm shooting.
Brass life is a major goal.

Therefore, why not try different .30-06 brass reformed to see if one works out the way I want? At the most, I only need about 0.002" to get the neck tension about right. If that doesn't work out, I'll try a Lee collet sizer or get a .338 expander and hone it down some.

I have Remington, Lake City, Federal, Winchester and one or two other misc pieces to play with. About 40 all told without emptying out the brass bucket and digging around a bunch.

We shall see...

I don't think this will work for the M48 though. Everything about that one is just a touch bigger - bore size, groove size and chamber.

[Nrut]

1. Redding FL Type S bushing die for about $45.00..(if they make one in 8X57)
2. Like Gear said a LEE collet die and Buckshot will make a mandrel the size you want..
3. Universal bushing die made by Buckshot..
3. Also he will make expanders any size that you want for different brands of expanders..
I prefer the LEE expanders myself, with Buckshot's custom expanders..

When ordering stuff ask about spring back on your case necks to get the sizes you need for better results..

[offshore44]

I looked at the Redding site and they don't have a 8mm Mauser that I could find in the FL dies...

Good point on asking about spring back. I'll remember that.

(Buckshot for dies, White Label for lube, the lead lady for lead...don't seem to need to go much beyond this site to keep all set up!)

[Nrut]

From this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73743&highlight=neck+sizer

http://www.fototime.com/57FDCC442C1911E/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/F8A71123107F86F/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/270BFCD63A02CF7/standard.jpg

Yep you are right offshore44, we sure have it good with this site !!!

Rather hard on the pocket book for retires though!:violin:

[offshore44]

I'm not retired yet...but I know what you're saying! Employment has been spotty the last three years. Good thing I saw signs of this little global financial faux pas coming and was kinda ready for it. Not ready enough, but ready as I could get. I pay for my shooting habit with scrounged pick up brass and pop cans. That's one of the reasons that I'm just absolutely thrilled with paper patching and casting. The funny thing is, the rifle and pistol that are doing the best with both aren't the ones that I expected. The Yugo 24/47 was a last minute thing the wife got for me because she knows I like Mausers. The rifle that I bought exclusively for shooting cast is pretty good, but about half as accurate as the 24/47. The revolver that I got to shoot cast runs just fine with cast, but nothing like my Colt 1911 that I've had for years. Except for primers and lead, I'm set for a decade or so. Lead I can scrounge, primers I'm working on.

I should have bought machine tools when I had the cash flow, I guess.

[Nobade]

My Lee collet die sizes cut-down 30-06 cases perfectly for a snug slip fit with .324" paper patch bullets. With a case full of powder or powder and filler I hand seat the bullets with no need for a seater die or flaring the case mouth.

[nicholst55]

A couple of suggestions:

1) Lee will make a custom set of collet dies for around $50.
2) You could also jury-rig a Redding bushing neck die - find one that an 8X57 case will fit into, and then determine the correct bushing size. Folks have been doing this with the 7,62X54R case for years, using a .284 Winchester die.

[bcp477]

Or, you could do what I do. Lightly flare the case mouth, to receive the PP boolit.....then LIGHTLY crimp, with a Lee "factory crimp" die or equivalent, to remove the flare and even up the neck tension (really, just straighten the case mouth...not actually produce a real crimp). I NEVER get torn patches that way....and neck tension seems consistent. I certainly get consistent results, anyway.

[Nrut]

My Lee collet die sizes cut-down 30-06 cases perfectly for a snug slip fit with .324" paper patch bullets. With a case full of powder or powder and filler I hand seat the bullets with no need for a seater die or flaring the case mouth.
Nobade,
How do you cut down your 30-06 cases?
And to what length?
thanks..

[Nobade]

Nobade,
How do you cut down your 30-06 cases?
And to what length?
thanks..

I either use the Redding 8X57 form 'n' trim die, run a 30-06 case in all the way and cut off everything that sticks out the top with a fine tooth hacksaw. Then run the case into the full length size die, and then trim to whatever length the load books say it is supposed to be.

Or I can use the trimmer after I run a 30-06 case into the 8X57 full length die with the expander ball removed. I drive the trimmer with a drill motor to trim cases to length, after using the 'M' die to open up the neck. I prefer this method, since the hacksaw cut is jagged and doesn't always clean up. You end up cutting a lot of brass with the trimmer, but it's pretty fast using a drill to drive it. They say those form 'n' trim dies can be used with a file to finish the cases, but I don't do that since the die is really hard and rapidly ruins your file.

Either way is easy to do, and saves having to find 8X57 reloadable cases. Just be careful if you also own a 30-06, since these kind of look like them and say 30-06 on the head. I keep them in separate boxes that are well labeled and don't have both out on the bench at the same time. I have found that the Greek HXP cases make very nice 8X57 ammo - tough and very consistent weight.

[swheeler]

OS44; I would give Redding a call and ask them to send you a 338 expander, you might be surprised that they will send one in the mail for free. I then would put it in drill press and start emerying it down until I got it the size I wanted. Worth a try and it's free.

[offshore44]

Or, you could do what I do. Lightly flare the case mouth, to receive the PP boolit.....then LIGHTLY crimp, with a Lee "factory crimp" die or equivalent, to remove the flare and even up the neck tension (really, just straighten the case mouth...not actually produce a real crimp). I NEVER get torn patches that way....and neck tension seems consistent. I certainly get consistent results, anyway.

Now there's an idea that I have all the tools for! Thanks bpc477.

[offshore44]

I either use the Redding 8X57 form 'n' trim die, run a 30-06 case in all the way and cut off everything that sticks out the top with a fine tooth hacksaw. Then run the case into the full length size die, and then trim to whatever length the load books say it is supposed to be.

Or I can use the trimmer after I run a 30-06 case into the 8X57 full length die with the expander ball removed. I drive the trimmer with a drill motor to trim cases to length, after using the 'M' die to open up the neck. I prefer this method, since the hacksaw cut is jagged and doesn't always clean up. You end up cutting a lot of brass with the trimmer, but it's pretty fast using a drill to drive it. They say those form 'n' trim dies can be used with a file to finish the cases, but I don't do that since the die is really hard and rapidly ruins your file.

Either way is easy to do, and saves having to find 8X57 reloadable cases. Just be careful if you also own a 30-06, since these kind of look like them and say 30-06 on the head. I keep them in separate boxes that are well labeled and don't have both out on the bench at the same time. I have found that the Greek HXP cases make very nice 8X57 ammo - tough and very consistent weight.

Nobade, do the Greek cases have thicker brass? I have found several thousandths difference in the collection of cases that I have on hand. The Federal cases seem to be the thickest so far by about 0.002". They also have the most "spring" to them. Out of the 40 or so that I have dug out of the brass bucket, I got 12 Federals. Ran them through my FL die with the expander removed, and then again with the expander in place. Trimmed them down to length on the Forster trimmer. (That's a lot of trimming right there!) and ran them through the NK sizer die with the expander in place. They come out right about 0.323" ID on the neck. My PP boolits won't thumb press into the case, but go in really easy in the press. I pulled several to check what was happening to the patch in the case mouth and they are getting compressed just a hair...still a few ten-thousandths over groove diameter though. When I chamber them in the rifle, they chamber "firmly" and are pushed back into the case about 0.020" or so depending on how uniform the paper patch is for length. I'm going to load these ten up and see what they look like dimensionally after they are fired.

I did mis-speak earlier, I don't have any LC cases...they were FC cases. Chalk it up to poor lighting and bad eyesight. I do want to ask around locally to see if any of the '06 shooters have some surplus brass they would trade for. If I can find brass with thick enough walls, I'll be golden for the target ammo.

[offshore44]

OS44; I would give Redding a call and ask them to send you a 338 expander, you might be surprised that they will send one in the mail for free. I then would put it in drill press and start emerying it down until I got it the size I wanted. Worth a try and it's free.

I'll do that swheeler... Who knows, they are pretty good about supporting their products, and might just send one along to play with.

[swheeler]

I'll do that swheeler... Who knows, they are pretty good about supporting their products, and might just send one along to play with.

In my experience they have customer service as good as RCBS(whoa what's that you say). I have told Redding and RCBS both that I bought the product used at a garage sale or Ebay, or whereever, didn't matter to them replacement parts would be in the mail free, and THANKED ME FOR USING THEIR PRODUCTS.

Try getting anything free, except lip and excuses, from Lyman after their junk breaks! As soon as I collect another dozen Saeco sizer dies the Lyman 4500 will go on Ebay or in the trash where it belongs. Actually it should go back to China[smilie=l: on the same slow boat it came over on.

[offshore44]

In my experience they have customer service as good as RCBS(whoa what's that you say). I have told Redding and RCBS both that I bought the product used at a garage sale or Ebay, or whereever, didn't matter to them replacement parts would be in the mail free, and THANKED ME FOR USING THEIR PRODUCTS.

Try getting anything free, except lip and excuses, from Lyman after their junk breaks! As soon as I collect another dozen Saeco sizer dies the Lyman 4500 will go on Ebay or in the trash where it belongs. Actually it should go back to China[smilie=l: on the same slow boat it came over on.

Now that's some funny stuff right there! I had a pivot bolt break on my 4500, and didn't even bother to call. I just replaced it with a grade 8 bolt of correct size that I had on the shelf. Seems to work just fine as a replacement, so far.

On another note...I did some fit and function testing on the 24/47 using random samples of the converted '06 brass and the PP boolits that I intend to load that I have been playing around with.

The FC brass may actually be too thick for what I am looking for. I felt a lot of resistance when I cranked the bolt over and seated the dummy shell. It started about the time the neck would be going home in it's part of the chamber. I tried the same test with the Remington brass and it seemed to run about as expected; slight resistance when the neck was going home and as the boolit seated in the leade. I did the Winchester converted '06 brass and it fell between the R-P and FC. Slightly more resistance than Remington, but less than Federal. I also did one of my usual Winchester 8mm head stamped brass.

Measuring all four after they were chambered, I came up with this:
FC brass - 0.353" average neck outside diameter.
R-P brass - 0.3515" average neck outside diameter, and pretty consistent.
Winchester '06 brass - 0.3525", and pretty consistent. (This may be the ticket, and I have the most of it as well.)
Winchester 8mm brass - 0.3495" outside diameter.

We'll see what shooting them reveals.

[leftiye]

Make 'em too thick, and neck turn to desired thickness?

[offshore44]

Make 'em too thick, and neck turn to desired thickness?

Good idea there leftiye, but I don't have a tool for that. I guess that a little 600 grit Emory paper would work well enough though.

I'm still hoping to end up with a set of brass that I can shoot, de-prime, clean, load and shoot. Rinse and repeat. Maybe throw a Lee factory crimp in there so I can feed it from the magazine as a repeater.

The good thing about this little project is that I am learning all sorts of stuff about brass that I never knew before. Still don't understand much of it, but that will come with time and research.

I tried my first pass at annealing brass last night. I was trying to address the perceived problem of spring back with the "hard" FC brass. I learned that "hard" may not be the issue at all.

Here's the situation. With the Federal brass and the 0.324" diameter PPCBs the boolit gets set back into the case by a varying amount when chambered. Neck sized, crimped, un-crimped, un-sized...whatever. The setback varies randomly from 0.010" to 0.070" I don't know why. I thought that it may be that the brass is too hard, and needed to be annealed. I tried that and it made matters much worse. It's the random part that is bugging me. If it was consistent, I can deal with that.

[CJR]

Offshore44,

You stated; Here's the situation. With the Federal brass and the 0.324" diameter PPCBs the boolit gets set back into the case by a varying amount when chambered. Neck sized, crimped, un-crimped, un-sized...whatever. The setback varies randomly from 0.010" to 0.070" I don't know why. I thought that it may be that the brass is too hard, and needed to be annealed. I tried that and it made matters much worse. It's the random part that is bugging me. If it was consistent, I can deal with that.

What I found with PPCB, is that sometimes the sized diameters PPCB will vary a little. Then some PPCB can get wedged into the chamber's forcing cone/rifling and if you retract it it will be pulled out of the case slightly or all the way. So if you were doing a trial "fit-up", with a PPCB, everytime you pulled out the PPCB it would be at a different OAL depending on what the neck tension was for that case. If the case necks are annealed, the case neck tension will be reduced and de-bulleting will happen more often. Likewise, wedging the PPCB into the chamber's forcing cone will cause pressure variations/spikes; and pressure variation/spikes cause velocity changes which give large groups. Ask me how I know that.

What I do is take a flat-based J-bullet, of proper caliber, trim the base to get a sharp edge and install it nose first into a DUMMY Round (no primer/no powder) so that the OAL is longer than necessary. Then I slowly chamber the DUMMY ROUND and keep reseating it in the seating die until I can just close the action. Now this round shows me exactly where my PP will contact the forcing cone. Now when I load a PPCB, I do a side-by-side comparison to make sure the PP is were I want it. Then I measure the OAL of the PPCB and that's what I use for starters. After I get the best powder charge, I'll start reducing the OAL of the PPCB (0.005" increments) to see if it improves accuracy. If I use anything longer than my starting OAL, I'll get the PPCB wedging in the chamber's forcing cone and erratic results.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

CJR

[offshore44]

Outstanding tip CJR! Well, actually several outstanding tips there...

I'm pretty sure that I have some Sierra J-word bullets of the proper caliber that I can use for the purpose you mentioned.

If I understand what you are saying correctly, then I am already seating my PPCBs out to far for best accuracy in the 8mm. Thinking about it some, I bet you have something there with the neck tension differences, slight differences in final patch thickness, position on the ogive & etc. They would be enough to cause the PPCB to be pushed / pulled various amounts during my cartridge chambering tests with the dummy rounds I'm playing with.

Let me play with this a little. I'll be back with more questions in a day or so! (At this rate I figure that I"m about a week or two from putting powder and primer in cases so I can figure out HOW much powder to use.)