Newbie - Spit Substitutes ? Lubing after dry ? and Sizing afterwards ?

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I just bought a new 130 year old Martini-Henry Mark II which I am going to paper patch .457 cast bullets for (up to .468 final).

Been reading and reading and reading - endless info on PP bullets !

Question about "glue" or "adhesive" to substitute for spit.....

I saw people who use Sprite and someone who suggested Metamucil, then plain gelatine solution !

Wow...how about Mrs Butterworth's syrup diluted down ?...maybe goat urine ? Aloe Hand Lotion ? lol

Anyway - just adhesives - what has worked for you ?
Maybe I will get some interesting answers so I can stop reading umpteen forum posts....

THEN - I see that some size the PP'ed bullet - after it is dried (and lubed).
Is this step really necessary ? I don't have a .468 sizing die ! Will my MHR work well w/o sizing after PP'ing ?

LUBING the Paper Patch after dried....I've read that Johnson's Paste Wax was used. LEE case lube.
Maybe Paraffin dissolved in Mineral spirits and allowed to dry ? Bee's Wax in Mineral Spirits ?
Automotive Axle Grease ?

I am getting everything I need together and looking forward to paper patching.
It looks like a very interesting endeavor !

Obviously, I am trying to start an interesting discussion here. Please excuse the humor....

A Paper Patcher's Best Friend ?
http://www.mynetimages.com/2044c7abd4.jpg

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Most people do everything they can to keep the bullet from sticking to the paper.
Few people lubricate the patch, most use a grease cookie between the patch and the powder, with wads to keep the grease cookie from contaminating the powder or the patch.

[montana_charlie]

Most of us who patch bullets for use in black powder cartridge rifles use water, or nothing, when wrapping the patch on. That is, some patch wet and some patch dry.
If you wish your paper was thicker, patching dry gets it on the bullet with no reduction due to stretching.

Lube is a dual purpose necessity for grease grooved bullets. It fights bore leading, and keeps powder fouling soft.
In paper patched loads, there is no chance to lead the bore.
Some BPCR shooters are playing, or have played, with lube on the patch, but most don't use anything.

If you are shooting paper targets, you can propbably wipe between shots.
When looking at it from this point of view, no lube is required, at all.

Having lube in the powder column is common for hunting loads to keep the powder fouling soft enough to allow a second shot.


CM

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Here are my first endeavors into Paper Patching for my Mk II Martini-Henry 577/450 rifle.

All you ex-spurts are probably laughing it up....but you started way back when
and you probably did experiments, also.....

Here is what I have set up for cutting and rolling the paper onto bullets.

I used some USED COFFEE FILTERS because I am cheap and we make coffee several
times each day and I won't be making all that many patched bullets, anyway....
The paper is extremely tough and after the coffee is made has nothing in it.

I also am trying Newsprint (bought a tablet of it for $5)

Looks like two turns will get my .457 Cast Bullets to .464-.468 diameter.

http://www.mynetimages.com/48de63b07c.jpg

I had two Exacto Self-Healing Cutting Mats that I can cut the paper on
with a metal ruler.

They have lines to follow and then you can wet the paper right on the mat w/o
any damage to the mat.

Nice.

I used an old plastic parking tag from where I work and cut a 'template' at 60°
and 7 cm long (for my patch length) - works nicely. Sharp Exacto knife blade.

Some various things I am trying for keeping the paper from unrolling.

Spit works well. (I don't have a Cold - so it isn't phlegm!)
Soda Pop (flat) works well
Miralax (Polyethylene Glycol 3500 Mol Wt) in water works well
Glue Stick in water does not work well (?)
A thin solution of Elmer's Wood Glue in water - does not work well (?)

I want to try

Okra pods soaked in water (cheap, slippery, slimy & sticky - might work well)
....probably the juice in a can of store bought Okra ? Yuk.

Dried egg white (used in cooking) in water....easy to measure, use and won't spoil.

on and on and on......experimenting is fun and I'm a Chemist, anyway.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I bought several pods of OKRA at a grocery store.
I froze and thawed them (breaks up the cell walls) , sliced just one up in a cup of water,
heated to boiling in a micrwave, blended it with a hand kitchen blender,
and filtered the green juice thru a paper towel in screen strainer.

Lord is the juice slimy - and smelly of OKRA !

Rolled a couple of used coffee filter patches wetted with the liquid and they adhere well.

After drying, it leaves a coating on the paper that feels smooth.

Just wanted to mention this - I'll report later on how it works.

Not rocket science, but what the heck ?

And just about the time I can go shoot, it started to rain.

I'm a "Fair Weather Shooter"

DoctorBill

[scattershot]

i generally use just plain water, but I read that the old timers mixed just a bit of eggwhite in it to help it stick. I'vve heard pros and cons on lubing the patch. If you're just shooting targets in fair weather, I don't know that it matters much.

That's just my opinion, and I have only patched a few boolits, so take it for what it's worth.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Can you imagine the GREAT HALL of a bullet patching workshop far from London with Mid-Victorian frocked men setting up production and quality standards, overseeing all the work, and, the employments, and placements of workers, supplies, and watching, noting, writing and evaluating all the patching going on or to be done.

Women were employed of course because of their deft fingers and copius spit. They were carefully trained in that vital aspect of the patching. Too much spit and the patches slumped by themselves, or mouldered before drying. Some were even a little smelly in the counting rooms. Too little spit and the bloody patches unfurled, and sometimes even popped like American popcorn. It was a constant management effort to control and provide focus for the ceaseless hacking, hocking, gurgleing, gagging, wimpering, slobbering, licking, and slurping to productive ends meeting high Empire standards. Less, or more than the exactly required amount of SPIT, was not a thing to pass over lightly. Sometime the women patch rollers cheated a bit without close watching.

The mighty .457 alloy bullet must be properly wrapped before bedded in the world's finest military cartridge, produced with the utmost of care by legions of spitting women, lest military efforts be foiled by men in sandals with pointy sticks.

I don't think the SHARPS and Remington and other US Companies selling patched bullets used spitting women in producing their patched bullets or cartridges so bulleted.

BvT

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I was going to suggest KY Jelly when I saw the thread header. Having read the entire thread, I realize now that would be in poor taste.

So, I will refrain from doing so. You might try one egg white in 16oz of warm water instead.

Rich

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Baron ! I am so happy to see someone with a true sense of humor answer my
thread !

May the great bird of happiness take a big dump on your personage !

I am picturing, in my fetid mind, benches of Victorian women in big, fluffy dresses
hucking up trays of mucous to paper patch Martini-Henry bullets !

I can see some ramrod stiff-backed 'gentleman' walking behind them with a walking stick,
urging them on to higher and higher levels of expectoration....
"The Queen is expecting extensively expanded expectoration ! Ten percent more today, Ladies !"

Imagine their job evaluations at the end of the year.

All those poor Ladies in feathered hats going home and telling their husbands, "No kiss
tonight my dear. I'm dry !"

Do you think that they washed their hands before going home ?

"Oh Lord, Ms. Brainwharte slipped on a lube cookie and broke her hip !"

Yes - and then this bozo comes along and says to try cooked OKRA slime !
Of course - I would be welcome in the South, where they actually like to eat that stuff.

Huzzahs to you, Baron ! Hip, Hip, Hurray my jolly old fellow ! Keep a stiff upper paper patch, old bean.


ID Sharpshooter - Glad you didn't say that !
Besides, we ran out it a couple of days ago. Used it all up.....right. lol

I heard about egg white (albumin protein) and will try it someday.
Had to try OKRA slime....once you see OKRA slime....and then see someone making
it "on purpose"......to eat it !

Same with Menudo (tripe slime soup)....I could try that ! Protein and Mucous. Yum !

Makes me hungry !

Just had another whole thought....do some drinking establishments still have spittoons ?
Wonder if they'd sell me a bucket load ? Does it spoil in the warm weather ?

Does the US Senate and US House of Representatives have spittoons in the isles ?
Some of that political expectorational exudate might be good to use for paper patching.
...it isn't any good for anything else.

DoctorBill

I wonder if Jay Leno could use this material for his stand up monologue ? !

[Baron von Trollwhack]

To tell you a secret. I always used tapwater, YES, tapwater from municipal supplies in many of the east coast states for wetting my 100% cotton rag bond certificate paper. I have no doubt that either wellwater or the local public waterworke product was the manufacturing choice in the old days. Cost and effectiveness ruled then too.

You see, I think that in those late days of the big buffalo hunts and the glory days of the LRBPC competitions, they had no green printer pape or coffee filters, glue tubes, PTFE, or rolling machines, or thought of such.

The job was to roll and stretch the patch perfectly on the perfect , likely swaged, bullet. They did have long narrow tables at which women sat on alternate sides, with collection boxes looking like modern shotgun makers use before boxing up their shells, and unwrapped bullets in boxes at convenient places, along with pre cut, perfect patches. They had their sponges and water bottles too. It might have been low tech, but it was not inefficient for the time. Women did the work (without the spitting) for the same reasons they did modern electronic component manufacture(resistors for example in the late 40s) and later assembly. They could do it better and would accept the wages offered. They had support help to "keep the line running" . I have seen the images etched in books and the narratives of CW and patching work.

It was an assembly line operation and of course the process was not unlike making millions of paper musket cartridges not many years before.

I did likewise when I started. Paper patched 45-70 cast bullets in Frankford arsenal tinned cases dating from the late 1890s . The best bullets I could make and size. The best I could do for reloading. Templates, an old manual paper shear for strips and a single edged razor blade for the diagonal cuts. Lots of note taking. I could make PP bullets that shot better in my nearly new1884 RR Bayonette Trapdoor than the best surplus ammo I could find. but not by much for the effort. And I had no long range place either.

I think many do not pursue the old perfection as there are too many diversions in the pursuit. Truly, look at the goofiness around here in simply selecting material and lube for the patch. Random in many cases. YET, we know our cloth patching brethern are in fact shooting better simply by using some teflon patching. A clue, Gents, a clue.


BvT

[Don McDowell]

Borchardt patented a patching machine.

[Lead pot]

Preparation H is the best thing to use. It shrinks the patch tigh on the bullet lubricates the bullet and it also shrinks the group when you shoot.

LP.

[montana_charlie]

YET, we know our cloth patching brethern are in fact shooting better simply by using some teflon patching. A clue, Gents, a clue.
The subject has been discussed, and found to be a fruitless pursuit.
CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Perhaps I should have said teflon coated? Not plumbers tape or the like. I missed the part about the coated trials failing?

BvT

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Back to Lube Cookie Recipes......

I am trying to mix up

Paraffin
Bee's Wax or Toilet Ring Wax (whatever it is)
Peanut Oil - the active ingrediment....

I started out with 20% peanut oil (PO) by volume.
i.e. 1 block of Parowax
2 TBS of PO - (Albertsons Brand) 2 TBS = 1.0 oz by vol.

Was quite HARD after cooling to room temperature.

Added 2 TBS of Toilet Ring (bee's) WAX.

Still rather hard.

Added ~ 3 more TBS (total of 5.5TBS) of PO. 2.75 oz by vol.

It is now a little softer - but I'm still wondering if soft enough ?

My question is - "...What am I going for in a Lube Cookie recipe ?"

Given about 70° F average temp - Just how soft should a Lube Cookie be ?

If anyone finds lube cookies down range in front of their bench, I would ASSUME
that the Lube Cookies are not able to perform their task of coating the barrel !

Should I try to manufacture a Lube Cookie "Mix" wherein the cookie is soft enough
to "Spread Out !" . . . . . on it's way down the barrel ?. . . .But not melt inside the cartridge before it is fired off ?

About 40 years ago, I worked one summer in an Oil Company's Quality Assurance Lab.
They had a standardized "Cone Penetrometer" test for grease thickness. Could that be simplified ?

It would be nice to have some kind of criteria other than, "This is my mix - it works - sit down and shut up!"
Something everybody could do w/o special equipment....can we come up with something ?

I hereby propose that a test composed of dropping a 50 cal lead ball from 36 inches (one yard)
onto a slab of room temp Lube Cookie material and measuring the indentation diameter !

http://www.mynetimages.com/ca38413965.jpg

Once you do this several times and get the average indentation diameter, then you can essentially
"Standardize" Lube Cookie softness for communicating with other reloaders using Lube Cookies.

I would be most interested in knowing what other folks recipes yield for this drop test.
What are other people routinely using for Lube Cookie softness ?

DoctorBill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Sorry DoctorBill, toilet ring wax has not typically been made of BW since Eric Clapton was a pup. A great many reports here suggest it is now some kind of evil scheme to befuddle boolit lubers. So, if you experience.........

I received some lubed 38special bullets from our Springfield (Mark Whyte) a while ago and it is so moist after firing that barrel nearly drips at the muzzle. No leading of course. That's what you want from a good cookie.

BvT

[Jim]

Concerning the contents of toilet rings, read THIS POST (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1109211&postcount=1).

[Lead pot]

One thing I found after putting those sticky wax rings on the closet flange and wiping my fingers on my shoes it keeps the leather soft [smilie=l:

[Lead pot]

DB.

People put a lot of voodoo ingredients in making bullet lubes that is not necessary.
But getting to your lube cookies.
I put a lot of them down the barrel shooting PP bullets and recovering them inside a shed in controlled conditions were I can see just what they do when they get a hard kick with black powder.
Most bullet lubes used for a GG bullet are to hard for a lube cookie used under a PP bullet from my findings. When your wads down range with the cards having the lube sandwiched between then with the land cuts and it looks like It was never shot the lube is to hard to do a proper job.
Most target shooters using a PP bullet wipe between shots and that makes using a lube wad unnecessary in most cases. I find I need a thin lube wad necessary when I shoot the bottle neck cases or I will stretch the case necks badly to the extreme of separating the case necks.
When I mix my lube I use for a lube wad I judge the temper by cutting a wad with the case I use it in and put the wad between my fingers and squeeze it. I want it to squish out with ease pressure and I look for the wad after it was shot and I dont want to find more then 1/2 of the lube between the two card wads or what ever type of wads I use and I want to be able to just blow into the breach with one breath with out the use of a blow tube and be able to push a dry patch down the barrel and have it come out in a greasy form that it will stick on my fingers when I rub it. and I dont want to see it on the bullet patch remnants that were folded under the base. I dont want it to ride with the bullet down range.
If you cant push a dry patch down the bore with just a blow down the breach with out a tube your lube is not working.
You can control the oils from migrating down into the powder by using proper wads that wont saok up the oil and let it get in contact with the powder even when it gets hot inside of a truck with the windows rolled up. But wads are another subject as well as the oil carriers used, waxes, some are better then others and I wont get into that.

LP

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

So "Toilet Ring Wax" is a Petroleum Wax with some Lubricity.
It is good for one's shoes and probably for other things, too.

I shall refer to it as TRW from now on.

Is it worth it to obtain TRUE BEE's WAX for Lube Cookies ?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I fired off 29 of my Martini-Henry 577/450 rounds yesterday - made up for
the sole purpose of fire forming the Jamison Brass.
No paper patching and the bullet was about .012 in too small in diameter.
I knew it was small and would not be accurate - I didn't care !
I just wanted to open up the new brass so that I can load these cast bullets PP 'd now.

I shot -
60 gr Pyrodex RS, Coffee Grounds filler, Milk Carton disk, Lube cookie
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1421138&postcount=15),
paper disk, and a .457 WW Cast Bullet. I indexed the cases in the breech.

The Necks opened up to .468 - .471. Inner Diameter.

All fired off nicely and I even hit a Metal Target (Boar) at 500 yards !

This is good for me for a first time firing with loose bullets !

http://www.mynetimages.com/08de00c551.jpg

I love this rifle !

Came home, cleaned the rifle immediately (lot of leading) and hand washed the Brass with
liquid kitchen detergent with a test tube brush and dried them.

Now for reloading the cases w/o resizing them with PP'd bullets to .468 dia and firing for accuracy.

BTW - Had many guys at the range asking about the old girl and remarking on
the huge 'Milk Bottle" cartridges.
After a while, it gets to be annoying.....leave me alone !

DoctorBill

PS - Lead Pot...I sure would like to see how big an indentation a 50 cal lead ball,
dropped 36 inches, makes in your Lube Cookie Mix that you can squeeze as you described !
What is your recipe ?

[montana_charlie]

PS - Lead Pot...I sure would like to see how big an indentation a 50 cal lead ball,
dropped 36 inches, makes in your Lube Cookie Mix that you can squeeze as you described !
I think Kurt is fond of tallow for making lubes.
When dropping a .58" lead roundball from three feet up, I have a feeling Kurt's lube is more likely to splash than indent.

CM

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Now that would be soft !

Speaking of Tallow - I have a one gallon pail of LARD, to mix with bird seed in the winter.
It is labeled MANTECA also.....Soft but does not flow....

Wouldn't LARD be almost the same thing, as regards Lube Cookies, as Tallow ?

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

:holysheep No MC, I dont use lard. The Tallow I make is as hard as SPG.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note


Lead Pot - is your Lube Cookie recipe (formula) a secret ?

Where do you obtain Tallow from ?

Beef Tallow or Mutton Tallow (America or Australia) ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallow

Is there something wrong with Lard other than it is taboo in certain religions ?
I am the one who asked, not MC.

Rendered Beef or Mutton fat is "Tallow", whilst rendered Pig Fat is Lard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard

Odd....what is the difference - all are triglycerides. Contaminants ?

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

DB.

No I don't mind giving out my way of doing things.

I make my tallow mostly from the Deer I harvest every year.
A lot of people don't know the difference between tallow and lard. You can get lard from the grease left after frying out your bacon or skimming the surface when you cook pork sausage when we used to butcher a few pigs every fall or boil out the Goose fat to make lard. Lard is like Crisco you can spread it like butter.
You can make tallow from lard that will be as hard as a candle. My Mother and Grand Mother used to render the suet (fat trimming) to make tallow or make soap when I was very young and that is the way I make my tallow I just dont add the salt or wood ash.
It takes a whole day to render out the suet for the first step and the way I do it it takes three days to get the quality I want and nothing needs to be added for bullet lube except maybe a little oil of choice to make it thin enough to use in a lube sizer or pan lube .
For the last 2-3 years I been using Ozokerite Wax and it is working good but it does not work as well as my Tallow mix did.

Lp.

[montana_charlie]

I think Kurt is fond of tallow for making lubes.

:holysheep No MC, I dont use lard.
If you can't keep up, take notes. I never mentioned lard ...

CM

[Lead pot]

MC.

You said my lube will most likely splash, tallow will not splash.

[montana_charlie]

I must admit to some degree of ignorance concerning tallow ... but I was picturing the impact of a dropped bullet on a lube which had originally been checked for firmness using this for scale.
"When I mix my lube I use for a lube wad I judge the temper by cutting a wad with the case I use it in and put the wad between my fingers and squeeze it. I want it to squish out with ease"

CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

There are a great many posts on the various forums here about rendering animal fats into rendered tallow, lard. Some of us know of the old country methods, others ask about bacon grease (HA !) and all kinds of exotic rendering schemes. Try searching in M/L and Lubes. Mutton fat rendered into tallow, for example was noted for its noticeably greater adhesion as a lube. It was more sticky.

BvT

[RMulhern]

Groan!!

[Lead pot]

Groan!!

:groner: Hey you old fart, what are you groaning about now??:popcorn:

When are we going hunting?

[RMulhern]

:groner: Hey you old fart, what are you groaning about now??:popcorn:

When are we going hunting?

Groaning?? Oh...maybe this:

"glue" or "adhesive"!!!!!

Whitetail doesn't open here for rifle until November....bout the same time as in Kansas! We've moved out of Missouri over the past year!

Don't give a frick or not if I tag out....as long as I can sit with one of the grandkids and watch them poke a hole in a nice buck.....will make the season for me![smilie=p::bigsmyl2::cbpour:

Just finished cleaning out my melting pot so I can throw in some 40-1 stuff! I've always used either 1-16 or 1-20 for PP so I wanted to try this and see what's gonna take place. Got a 100# from Walters in about two days back! Cooled off down here and I have really enjoyed getting to shoot more!

Have ya stuck anything with that gizmo you call a bow yet??:-P:bigsmyl2:

[Don McDowell]

:bigsmyl2:" old fart," sorta like the pot callin the kettle black[smilie=p:[smilie=s:

[Lead pot]

Been to warm Rick. They sure are hitting the Chest nuts hard they are getting them faster then I can pick them up. Got the grass worn down to the dirt in the orchard.

[Lead pot]

:bigsmyl2:" old fart," sorta like the pot callin the kettle black[smilie=p:[smilie=s:

Yup :bigsmyl2:[smilie=p:

[Chicken Thief]

Why do you need to "glue" the paper to the boolit?
Are you using thick paper?
What about just using glue on the final 1/16" of the paper? That way the rifling will "cut" the patch and make it fly off at firing.

Varying boolit weight and BC because of uneven shredding of the patch is only going to give you a "shotgun" pattern.

My paper is .00165" i wet it and roll, then twist the bottom and stand it up drying:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mauser%2071-84/R0010627.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mauser%2071-84/R0010629.jpg

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I am just starting out with Paper Patching and BPCB's. Martini-Henry Mark II.

I rolled some PP's and when I looked back several hours later they were coming
unwrapped - the paper was unwinding off the Bullet.

Let me pose the reverse question to all of you.

Have any of you ever recovered a bullet at the end of the range still wrapped in paper ?

Not trying to be a wise off, but some say that you want the Paper to peel off
as the bullet emerges from the barrel.

Does it ever not do that somewhere down range ?

Being a natural skeptic, I want some proof that I need to worry about the patch
not separating from the bullet.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Idea came to mind - anyone ever tried soap on the paper ?
Let a leftover soap bar sliver set in water - you get the most slippery stuff imaginable -
yet sticky too.

Soap is alkaline - just the stuff to neutralize acidic BP residue....(?)
It is not hygroscopic since soap bars dry out setting by the sink.
It is a fatty acid - that is - a long chain hydrocarbon - a fat.

DoctorBill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

How comes the ones I patch never unwrap themselves spontaneously while drying? I use plain water, 100% cotton or rag bond of quality, patch by hand, usually two wraps, and use both folded or twisted tails. All are GG, some are sized after patching. No, I never find evidence of patching in the butts, only occasionally find a shed shred, as if it were a M/L patch, out in front of the muzzle somewhere.

Nothing exotic except hand rolled and stretched patches carefully applied, well wetted, that shrink and stay put. Culls are made while still wet.Bullets usually sized as needed to attain finished patched diameter before patching with minimum traces of lube to get them through the sizer smoothly. Wet ones go nose down in a used cartridge tray to dry.

Worry about the gwangzhou space station being secretly pre-programmed to fall on a western city when its usefulness is over, not about the PP coming asunder after launch. Unless of course you use exotic new chemicals instead of water, or lube with panneling glue, or china mucilage.

BvT

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note



"How comes the ones I patch never unwrap themselves spontaneously while drying?"

Do you think that if I knew that, I would be asking the question ?

I don't have 100% cotton or rag paper. Does everyone use that ?

I think I should stop doing this Forum thing.

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Patches coming unwound before you get them loaded is part of the game, you need to figure out how to minimalize that problem, by either drying the patched bullet , or by setting the patched bullet into a bullet tray ( ask your med professional for their test tube holding trays)
No you don't need 100% rag paper but it does seem to work the best for me.
Just plain water on the patch is sufficient, no need for all manner of alchemy to further aggrevate the problems of using patched bullets.Learn to roll the paper tight and forget about the glue...
If the patch isn't coming off at the muzzle as the bullet exits , there's a problem somewhere. It is possible tho from time to time to find a hollowbased bullet with the paper stuck in the base.
And never loose sight of the fact that if this paper patching business was easy it never would of become long forgotten obscolete technology.

[RMulhern]

My way!



Accurate BPCR Paper Patch Bullets


The following photos show how I get great accuracy from my 45 2 7/8 Shiloh rifle. I cast these 525 gr. 1-20 alloy bullets from a Buffalo Arms Co. PP Money Bullet mould. The bullets...as cast come out of the mould at a diameter of .446" and I then run them through a Fred Cornell .4445" sizing die. I then wet patch with a paper of .0022" thickness, dry them on a warming plate and when dry, I apply a light film of lube to the exterior of the patch and then run them back through the same sizing die which brings them down to a finished OD of .4470". These are then inserted atop a .060" veggie wad which sits below the mouth of the case .140". The BP is previously compressed to a depth that will give me the .140" dimension at the top of the case; included above the powder and sitting atop it is a .030" veggie wad and betwixt the two veggie wads is a lube cookie of .240" thickness! The below photo shows a patched bullet sitting atop the push rod before I run it up into the sizing die!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6174/6217476477_3a8f237c41_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6217476477/)
SwageOp (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6217476477/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

Bullet upon partial exit from Fred Cornell sizing die:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6108/6217480223_b4e0cc6c3d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6217480223/)
SwageOp2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6217480223/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

Loaded cartridges with view of others waiting to have bullet seated. Before seating the bullet I run the as seen below cases with wads showing into a taper crimp die for a PARTIAL TAPER which allows me to seat the patched bullet without having a lot of 'slop' betwixt the exterior of the bullet and interior of the case. When the bullet is fully seated with base against the wad...I then give the case the final very slight taper crimp!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6103/6217483047_f21c4dc277_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6217483047/)
RFS (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6217483047/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

Photo of hot plate which is nothing other than a device made to fit under an RCBS sizing/lube tool designed to warm lube for bullet sizing!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5195/5880866583_3a95c662ab_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/5880866583/)
Hotplate (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/5880866583/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

My finished bullet diameter is at .4470"; .003" UNDER bore diameter! I had been told by the Rdnck that under bore sized bullets shoot well for him but I was doubtful! It seems however that oft times it pays to listen to those that have more experience! This method works for me. Recently I got some bullets cast up at a 1-40 alloy and I fired 10 rounds this morning from 500 yards that hit pretty much dead center of a 20" clanger and I can live with that!!

[montana_charlie]

I am just starting out with Paper Patching and BPCB's. Martini-Henry Mark II.

I rolled some PP's and when I looked back several hours later they were coming
unwrapped - the paper was unwinding off the Bullet.

Let me pose the reverse question to all of you.

1 Have any of you ever recovered a bullet at the end of the range still wrapped in paper ?

Not trying to be a wise off, but some say that you want the Paper to peel off
as the bullet emerges from the barrel.

2 Does it ever not do that somewhere down range ?

You stated a problem, and asked two questions.
First, answers to your questions understanding that my wet patches are dampened with plain water, sometimes I patch with dry paper, and my paper is 25% cotton onoinskin. Paper made by Seth Cole is very popular among black powder paper patchers, and (I'm pretty sure) it has no cotton fiber at all.

1. In the winter, I shoot PP bullets into snowbanks so I can see their condition from being fired. Sometimes they are fired at short range (like thirty yards) and occassionally at a hundred yards.
I have never found any paper in the snow.

2. After almost every shooting session I collect paper particles for examination. The 'drop zone' will depend on the wind that day, but it is ALWAYS close to the bench ... and never substantially downrange.

As for your patches unwinding as they dry ...

First, you should determine if your paper has a 'directional grain'. The fiber in some papers is laid up with no apparent direction.

Cut a one inch strip across the top of a page, and another down the side of the page. Cut two pieces (one from each strip) that are equal in length.

Grasp the two pieces by their ends and let them droop. If they hang differently, the one which droops the most has the grain running across the width of the strip. That grain direction will wrap around a bullet most willingly, and is most likely to stay wrapped after it's dry.

Still using those two strips ...
If you lightly dampen one side of each strip, they should try to curl up. The one which curls lengthwise (forming a soda straw) has the grain running lengthwise in the strip. It will resist wrapping to some drgree, and is more likely to uncurl while drying.

Once you DO have a damp patch wrapped on a bullet, the folding of the paper over the base locks the whole wrap in position. Holding the base fold flat to the bullet as the paper dries is normally enough to assure the paper does not unroll.

If it does, it could be that
- your paper is too heavy (thick),
- is made from a fiber that is too 'springy' and won't stay curled around the bullet,
- or your bullets are too lightweight to keep the base fold flat while drying.

I did not invent any of these procedures. I learned of them by reading, and experimented with paper until I developed enough experience to make the statements above.

You may be troubled by factors I am unaware of, and therefore my advice may not help much. Also, since your paper and mine are bound to be somewhat different, your results may differ from mine.

CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

"How comes the ones I patch never unwrap themselves spontaneously while drying?"

Do you think that if I knew that, I would be asking the question ?

I don't have 100% cotton or rag paper. Does everyone use that ?

I think I should stop doing this Forum thing.

DoctorBill

There are past threads here on sources for rag or high quality bond paper. Not everyone uses it, except the original patchers of yesterday, old incorrigibles like me, a few hardy souls and various rare wise men. This kind of paper has grain structure to stretch uniformly (if tightened uniformly) in one direction(the way it is pulled in manufacture) when wetted to a specific degree according to your batch of paper and stretched to a degree you find by a little experience.

You can learn by making the patches perfectly trapezopidal with a butt joint, then wetting and pulling the patch to you (as I do) and seeing what the overlap is by your handwork. If they dry nicely tightly with overlap you can be perfect and reduce the overlap of the cutting stencil to 0 gap until you get the hang of wet and stretch. I used an old terrycloth towel until the smooth backsides of mouse pads were invented. Then I switched. That meant wet more in the saucer(one at a time) and less as the pad was a constant for practical purposes. My patch pattern is tall enough to twist a longtail against a flat base, or tall enough to fold over a little after the patch is tolled. I stand these up on a plastic cutting board to dry, the twisty ones go nose first into a commercial shooting range trash can pick up plastic tray of some caliber or other. I think a little overlap is OK however.

With the pad in front of me I wet one paper to my liking, lay it on the pad with the point on the left, the point closest to me on the right, patch oriented long ways. Lay a bullet on the patch , nose to the left and apply the patch tip to the bullet and start rolling both to me, dragging the patch on the pad for tension when positioned correctly on the ogive. I keep the bullet in the same place so the rolling brings the patch to cover the bullet as it rotates. Heck it only takes a few hundred to get good at it( with that bullet) because the errors teach you what to look out for. Actually, I use a 45-48 degree angle on the ends not a true equal trapezoid.

Harbor freight makes a cheap papercutter for strips so I don't borrow one anymore. I cut only a few at a time. My template strips are cut from old fiberboard(almost like formica) about 1/8" thick with a razor knife, and I use the the template to cut even fewer patches at a time to help consistency.

As a deviation, I've tried various papers which were not OK.

Dang those big bore Martinis. Hard to find a reasonably big bullet to patch up. Grocery bags won't get it for them. Perhaps you can find heavier than 11-12 pound bond and a fat bullet. I seem to remember shooting three wrap PP on a 58 minie' for a Snyder though. Maybe this will help.

BvY

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My first attempt to load Paper Patched 577-450 Martini-Henry Black Powder
Cartridges.

http://www.mynetimages.com/077ff8d950.jpg

The small strip of waxed paper is wrapped around the base of the PP'ed Cast
Bullet as a shim to make it stay in the Brass Case (,476 ID Fire Formed).

http://www.mynetimages.com/b686d2876d.jpg

Doing 10 of them - Now for a range test.

DoctorBill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

My first attempt to load Paper Patched 577-450 Martini-Henry Black Powder
Cartridges.

http://www.mynetimages.com/077ff8d950.jpg

The small strip of waxed paper is wrapped around the base of the PP'ed Cast
Bullet as a shim to make it stay in the Brass Case (,476 ID Fire Formed).

http://www.mynetimages.com/b686d2876d.jpg

Doing 10 of them - Now for a range test.

DoctorBill

That shim is a wobble factor. A snug fit in the neck aligns things well. Try another wrap & size, or thicker paper on the bullet that make a snug fit on seating. I would never stick that polyester in a BP charge. How about a suitable little square of TP?

I dropped that little newspaper disc into the empty case bottom on my 43M, tubed the BP charge in, added a card stock disc, then a pea sided ball of lube for squishing flat as the patched bullet was seated to depth. A just snug push to seat with the press. Not much powder compression by force for a bottleneck case, BTW. ffg at 87 grains was better for me than fg. I used large pistol primers, no bell on the case mouth, just a little chamfer, and only sized the case neck to base level of the seated bullet.

BTW, Mr Olson's mauser book gave the contemporary shot dispersion for the 71/84. Just so you have a goal that is sort of reasonable, Can you find the Martini equivalent? To me, just dropping that waxed paper will help in the long run.


Oh, I just now see a noticeable difference in your two patched bullets, with respect to where the patch covers the ogive. Maybe , possibly, enough to make a difference where they land, eh?
BvT

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

The shim was an attempt to make up for loose PP'ed bullets to not just fall out
of the case - waxed paper.

Been trying two and three turns of various papers - they shrink after drying.
Four turns comes out too large.

It seems to be a matter of which paper type and thickness that will work best for my particular situation....

Just to keep people from recommending that I go read some more things.....
I have "The Paper jacket" on the way.
Been looking at all the links that have been recommended.

Boils down to rolling them enough so that I can do it well automatically (like walking)
and then finding the right paper for this size cast bullet and the opening in
these fire formed cases.

It will take me some time to finger all that out.

I just wanted to go shoot this baby and quit farting around on the bench for a while.

The proof is in the popping - at the range !

Everybody and his brother is giving me advice and most of it is helpful, but in the
end I have to work out what will work with my particular Martini-Henry, my Brass,
my Cast bullet, and what I have on hand - plus my club fingered ham handed abilities.

I even did a couple of the ten reloads DRY ! Not me - the Bullets....

As to the Polyester - many recommend it.
Others used Wool. The original used "Cotton Wool" as seen here:

http://www.martinihenry.com/
http://www.mynetimages.com/15f321a84c.jpg

This is off of the Martini-Henry site. Wool is a protein - burning (hair) protein stinks !

They used Bee's Wax only as a Lube Cookie !

I've used PolyEster, Cotton, Dried Coffee Grounds and Cream of Wheat.

I won't use COW any more as it has solidified in the case shoulder for me in
some cartridges I tried in the past.

Open up an older reloaded COW case sometime and see if the COW is still a powder.

My COW had set into a hard plug - probably needs to be oven dried before use.

Coffee grounds are in any house where coffee is drunk and are of uniform size
and very low density and you normally toss them anyway.
Dry them for 30 minutes at 250° F in the oven and keep them dry in a covered wide mouth jar.

GOEX Fg was all the store had - so I bought it. We'll see......

I don't want this BPCR reloading for my MHR to become some anal Rocket Science.
Reload, shoot, adapt - relaod, shoot, adapt....until I get it right.
All of it is fun - at least until I get tired of it....
I'm pushing 69, so I'll probably croak before I get tired of it.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

Boils down to rolling them enough so that I can do it well automatically (like walking)
and then finding the right paper for this size cast bullet and the opening in
these fire formed cases.
I've been playing with paper patched bullets for two years. I spent the year before that reading about it and asking questions ... gradually building an interest in the procedure.

For a few reasons, I chose to patch bullets to groove diameter instead of bore diameter. One of the advantages of that is having bullets which fit snugly in fired case mouths.

Something over a year ago, it dawned on me that I (and most others) should not follow the normal sequence where you buy a bullet mould ... then start searching for the appropriate paper.
Instead, I'll advise anyone to locate a lifetime supply of suitable paper, then procure a bullet which will create a patched package that matches the dimensions you desire ... using two wraps of paper.

I can't say anything about fillers as I have no experience with them. But, your pictured load looks like it might work for you.
It will (at least) show if you are on the right track.

CM

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Chicken Thief - While walking thru a DOLLAR STORE, I came upon something
that I thought might work well for drying wetted paper patched bullets.

http://www.mynetimages.com/951d64060d.jpg

This is a screened "In Mail" tray for $1 dollar.

It even has ridges running across it to hold PP'ed Bullets from rolling around.

I propped it up over my Forced Air Furnace Register to dry PP'ed Bullets
more quickly than over night.

Something I thought would appeal to any cheap dudes like me who like to shop
in the Dollar Stores.

Try to see past my poorly patched bullet and imagine many PP'ed Bullets
end to end to hold the crimped end parts flat while drying quickly.

BTW - this is an attempt for 4 rolls of Newsprint paper to get up to .476 inch dia.

Hey there, Baron von Trollwack - It sure would be nice if you had mentioned why you
"...would never stick that polyester in a BP charge." I don't like McDonald's Hamburgers myself.

Enlighten us.....

DoktorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Someone, somewhere posted that they made their Lube Cookie Slabs by
pouring the molten mixture onto water in a tray and let it solidify to make nice
flat slabs of uniform thickness.

Well, I tried that and it works very nicely !

http://www.mynetimages.com/f66ca9a87a.jpg

I am trying my own variation on the vast array of Lube Cookie Recipes.

My experimental formulation is shown in the photo.
The color of the slab is what I got when I added some deep blue colored paraffin
that I just bought at Hobby Lobby here in Spokane today.

After the Lube Cookie Slab cooled, I placed the tray outside in the cold and
the Slab shrunk enough to let go of the tray and just fell out.

Nice and flat and about 7mm thick.

Been reading "Loading The Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A. Matthews.

He said that there should NOT be anything between the Lube (Grease) Cookie and the
powder charge, so that the hot burning powder can vaporize the Lube Cookie
and then deposit it along the rifle barrel as the bullet travels down the barrel.
The Cookie should be soft enough to be vaporized by the burning powder blast.

"For the grease cookie to be effective in keeping the fouling soft, it must be mixed
with the fouling in the barrel. Placing a card wad between the powder and the
grease cookie prevents this." page 22, 4th paragraph.

"One of the best ways to protect the powder and the paper patch from migration of the
grease cookie, is to place a disc of waxed paper on both sides of the cookie."

"...the waxed paper....does not insulate the grease cookie from the powder blast,
nor does it take up the amount of room required by a card wad."

I think I'll toss the Milk Carton disks I have been putting on top of the Polyester filler over the BP.....
going to switch to Wool over the BP under the cookie and Waxed Paper under the PP'ed Bullet.

i.e. - 85 grains BP, Wool or PolyEster Filler to neck, Lube Cookie, waxed paper disk, PP Bullet.

Matthews was shooting 45-70's with straight cases, though - AND he used no filler over Pyrodex RS ! Ha !

DoctorBill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

With respect to my discrimination against Poly Ester, my first cursory review of PP mechanics indicated thet POLYESTER were not part of the cartridge assembly process that was highly successful and proven. Not in the early Sharps BN and other cartridges. Not in the Martini cartridge. Plus, in M/L shooting experience, I had to swear to the booshway I was not using polyesther patching.

Likewise there was some difference in component stacking procedues between straight cases and bottle neck cases. That old arsenal drawing of the 577-450 case and components shows that the designer did not want any compression on the powder charge as it would eventually harden BELOW THE NECK, and probably rip the case neck off on firing. Bloody hot in the East, WOT ! Especially with the early foil cases being so thin.

What to do. They could find no Poly , but did find Wooly. A little bit of Wooly would keep the charge stable in place below the neck. Now I chose to add a bit more powder in my 43M and avoid the issue by putting a thin card over the powder up in the neck a little distance above the shoulder and a square piece of TP to simply fill a little space without powder compression and take up a little space before the bullet base. I also had some thought that the charge ignition slamming a thin card into the soft Charmin and thence into another thin card and bit of hydraulically motivated grease would never cause a "ringing" event. Never did either. Plus the loads shot pretty darn good.

I started in the kapok days and never trusted myself measuring "tufts". I came to like the measurability of Mr. Whipple's finest, whether simply ripping a square off or by cutting with scissors and it would hold the charge down without real compression. Then the card and grease "pea" for ease and then the neck snug seated bullet, either patched or GG.

I never thought much of polyester suits either.

BvT

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Well Baron...I am not trying to be obtuse - I just want to examine what people
are doing and mostly why they are doing that thing.

Looking at the old diagram of the Martini-Henry BP Cartridge that I posted
several postings back, one can see that they used "Cotton Wool" as a "WAD" over
the Black Powder.

Wool is a protein from an animal's hair (usually but not limited to sheep).
Cotton wool cannot be anything but uncombed cotton - cellulose fibers.

They did not have plastics back then - no polyester.
Had they had it, would they have used it perhaps.....?

Has anyone ever opened up an authentic Factory Made old Black Powder Martini-Henry 577/450 cartridge
from that era and documented what was in it ?

If anyone reading this knows of any links giving MHR Cartridge disassembly data, PLEASE
post it here so we can all see what really happened !

I don't mean what was written by some fellow who is giving opinions and
guesses - which seems to be what one usually gets !

Some of the English Officers in India reloaded Martini-Henry cartridges for hunting purposes....
and that is where opinions and preferences could easily get written into "history".

The diagram shows just Bee's Wax on top of the cotton 'wad' - with a card ("glazed board disc") between
the Bee's Wax and the cotton and two "glazed board discs" directly under the PP Bullet.

This goes contrary to what Paul Matthews recommends.

I, too, wonder if Matthews was correct - is the Lube Cookie being vaporized, or is it
hydraulically squished by the 11,333 g's Matthews (calculated) out sideways and "Painted" onto the bore ?
"Loading The Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A. Matthews, pages 16-17 - this happens in just 3 milliseconds time.

How would one find out ?

Now - Should we all faithfully duplicate what the English Military used in the
Martini-Henry or what we "Think" is a better way - and - use modern materials or only just what the "Book" said ?

As to straight cases versus bottleneck cases - does all of the BP burn immediately or is some BP shoved upward and
bash into the bottle neck of the case before it all burns ?
If it does, it wouldn't matter in a straight case, but a bottleneck case may be
subjected to that shoulder hammering effect if the top layer of powder is slammed forward before it burns completely.
It would depend on just how fast BP burns - and would that even matter once the case
is fire formed to the chamber of the barrel ? New case yes ? Old reused case no ?

Just a thought. I'm not disagreeing with you about COW, but maybe even
compressed BP might do it, too !

A great deal of what is said comes from "It sounded like a good idea...", which is
what has gotten California into such a political mess. I'd rather see DATA.

DoctorBill

For what it is worth - Photoshop'ed Image - measurements extrapolated from Jamison
Brass Cartridge Dimensions and diagram dimensions. Bullet from e-Bay auction site.

http://www.mynetimages.com/a6914f911c.jpg

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Well, you have my reasons for using Whipple's Finest instead of (cotton ) wooly. Measurability, ease of use, CONSISTENCY, and the great difficulty of tufting measurements for me. Especially since I want softer and thinner compenents for the bottleneck. Likewise why I don't use/like Polly Ester. But I'm not loading your ammo. GO FOR IT ! Likewise, I've suggested why theBritish used wooly in their ammo, and it was not lack of synthetic fuzzy stuff. It was the amount of powder and where it fit into the case design and the understanding not to compress powder in a bottle neck, and a decision certainly not to overcome that spacing problem with yet more powder in a notorious thumper.

I am willing to bet arsenals followed the specs given them by the BRITISH goobermint. Likely didn't phony it up either. Now the JO's in India probably did have their boolits cast soft for them by their Punkah Castah to load into cases. I'd vote for that for Tiger, buffalo, and probably elephant. Probably harder was better for five ranks of charging spearmen though. But it just doesn't matter. It was your sample drawing and hard as heck bullet you posted.

BTW did you notice the utter precision of the production posted by RMulhern? That's the starting point and then you begin to refine things by trial. You know after firing you can get some ideas of lube needs by the type and location of fouling in your barrel. Get to work on your production without worrying so much. Cast a hundred visually perfect bullets. Patch them perfectly to come out 2 thoudandths over groove. Prepare your cases perfectly according to your bet. Develop a test schedule with primer, primer wad, measuring and powder dropping all the same and start shooting 3 shot trials of wad, buffer, cookie, card, and bullet columns, with the PP bullet always engaging the rifling as it should. Start at 100 yards and keep records and look at everything critically.

Somewhere you will find peace. Note that author you mention did not set up for the 577-450 production either.

BvT

[Lead pot]

Interesting looking at that drawing. I never seen a lube wad used like this.
That hollowed out portion of the B/Wax disk makes me wonder if they filled that cavity with some sort of soft shortning like lard to control the fouling. B/Wax alone wont do this.
The way that disk is it would keep the substance they used in it from migrating into the powder by making a good seal on the side of the case, and also the B/Wax would take a lot of heat before melting.I'm going to have to try this once to see if it has any merritt.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Baron - I am kind of doing what you said.

I started out with the Milk Carton Disc over the PolyEster wad, then the Lube Cookie,
then a paper disc then the PP Bullet.

Starting up the reloading process again on 30 rounds - that's all the Brass I have
until GAD sends me 20 of theirs. Their taking their time sending them....then I'll have 50 total.

I'll load 85 grains BP, Polyester wad, Lube Cookie, then either a paper disc or
Milk Carton Disc, then PP Bullet.

Can't imagine that it makes much different about one or two (stiff ?) discs between
the bullet and the Lube Cookie. Space taker upper....PP protector.

Whether or not one way or another works better assumes one can aim the rifle
well enough to test reproducibility of the cartridge load configuration !

Really - for the average old man, a bench vise would be needed to assess which
cartridge load configuration might work best.

One fat butt-load of variables to consider !
A "good" scientist plays with only one variable at a time....

I'll be happy if I can put the slugs in a 12 inch circle at 100 meters.

I'd be ecstatic if I could hit the 500 meter Metal Boar Gong at the range !

No matter what, though, this is fun stuff, damned interesting and a great (albeit expensive) hobby !

DoctorBill

PS - I wonder if wetting Paper Patches with Beer would work ?

[RMulhern]

"
PS - I wonder if wetting Paper Patches with Beer would work ? "

No! Used distilled water! Drink a case of Budweiser...go to the range and you won't give a damn if you hit the berm...but you'll be happy as hell!!

You're trying to make this ROCKET SCIENCE....but maybe that's what it takes with BN cartridges!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

RMulhern - I did try India Pale Ale and it worked quite well....
at least it did on me - a great Lube, as it were.

I have been patching with tracing paper (0.002 in) using egg white in water
with a pinch of baking soda added to keep the egg white from curdling. Works.
White of one egg in about 1.5 cup tap water with a healthy pinch of Arm & Hammer
Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate). Mix for about an hour, then filter thru a
paper towel in a kitchen strainer into a empty wide mouth water bottle.
Keep in the fridge then use an oz or so for many bullets.

I know the purists don't like that, but for right now, I need the help keeping the
paper where I put it.

I also found it nice to work on a transparent plastic cutting sheet from the $1 store.
Three for $1.

http://www.mynetimages.com/9697d74654.jpg

Made marking pen marks of the paper patch shape on the cutting sheet and
placed a BLACK paper (spray painted) underneath to help see the paper patch edge
as I roll the wet patch onto the bullet. (...or dry for the purists)

http://www.mynetimages.com/050f51b150.jpg

I am very sure that each of you has a much better system for doing this and I will
enjoy reading about it when you reply. Please add nice pictures so that we can
all benefit from your experience.

I loaded up 25 Martini-Henry rounds with the PP Bullets I just made and dried over the
furnace register.

85 grains BP (weighed), Polyester wad - tamped down, Lube Cookie cut with the cartridge
itself, felt disk, tamped down with a 7mm Remington cartridge case base, PP bullet rubbed
with the Lube Cookie lube, then inserted into the cartridge.

http://www.mynetimages.com/bbd0186d56.jpg

I am tired now and I'm gonna go to bed.....I'm old and deserve a good sleep - never get it, tho !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Here is what I am doing at this point.

Baron & RMulhern - I finally fingered out how to roll the patches on dry !

http://www.mynetimages.com/5788274772.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/6b7a51bbc9.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/a9b0e258ea.jpg

This Cookie Recipe smells of Dill Pickles (jar I keep it in) !
I decided to add a bit of Hoppe's No. 9 to my next batch - Perfume !

http://www.mynetimages.com/87543cbcbd.jpg

The Lube Cookie often "pops out" due to air pressure,
so I poke it with a pin to let the compressed air out.

http://www.mynetimages.com/fa96359fdd.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/b37a211a5a.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/2df4de54b7.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/709017dcae.jpg

The paper patch here is dry - I finally fingered out how to do it !

http://www.mynetimages.com/08645f7815.jpg

Have 30 all ready to go !
If GAD would just send me the other 20 cases I ordered,
I'll have 50 cartridges. That's enough for me....

Now to get back to my 30-40 Krag-Jorgensen 'restoration'...
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/39885/Purchasing-a-Krag-Jorgensen-30-40-Can-I-revive-it?page=1

DoctorBill

[Buckshot]

............Doctor Bill, I read this thread with much interest. As a perosnal point I do honestly believe that the common mou th variety of saliva does do a better job then plain water in making patches do what they orta. Maybe the digestive enzymes or something? But, not wanting to end up with mental issues or other maladies I gave up the handleing of paper patches and bare lead boolits long ago. Maybe not long ago enough as I can walk through the door form the shop to the kitchen and will have forgotten why I made the trip?

Many years ago I was lucky enough to have purchased a nice MkIV Martini Enfield which was made as one of the late .402" calibers, and subsequently changed back to the 577-450. At which point it became a Martini Henry I guess? My gunsmith had called me (he knowing I was interested in the odd and uncommon) wanting to know if I was interested in a 577-450 Martini for $125? It's a long and somewhat interesting story of how he ended up with a BOGGLE of Martini stuff. Basically a customer who was wanting some work done to some original SA Army Colts had an eccentric uncle who'd passed away and left him with quite an inventory of firearms related stuff. Including firearms, hense the old Colt revolvers and Martini stuff.

To pay for the pistol work he wanted to trade this old Anglo militaria. The story gets a bit more complicated and I don't have the time nor inclination to relate it all, but included amongst the flotsam and jetsom was a full unopened case of Kynoch cordite loaded 577-450 rifle ammo and a partial case of the same, but in the carbine loading. Also a case of 12 brand new MkIV 577-450 barrels (dated 1892) including the sights. The barrel on the rifle I was offered was in pretty good shape, but for another $125 he'd provide and install one of these brand new old barrels. So I said yes.

As a side note, another customer of his was able to purchase both cases of the Kynoch ammo. He and I became friends, and over time he allowed me to fire 20 rounds of the carbine loads, and he wanted the brass back as he could sell the empties at the gunshop for $5 each. He'd gifted me 5 of the rifle cartridges. One I disected and fired the other 4. Almost every single cartridge (carbine and rifle) were all of the "Clack, sizzle, sizzle, Ka-Boom" variety, but still amazingly accurate. Almost every single one split it's neck. The rifle rounds were patched with a dark green paper and the carbine loads were patched with a pink paper. Both were lubed, with beeswax I assume.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

The above became my standard load. That is the Lee 457-450-F (not the HB design) patched 'as cast' with 20# bond for an OD of .472". They were loaded in Bertram cases over 38.0grs of IMR 3031 + dacron for 1250 fps. Our range held a monthly NRA sanctioned 200 meter silhuette match. For the un-registered heathens involved simply for the fun of it, they had what they called the "Cowboy Match" (this was before SASS) and was good for mention in the club's monthly newletter only. With this load it was no problem to fetch the 200 meter ram with any kind of hit. It's a very accurate load. The above 60 rounds were loaded to take to the 2005 NCBS shoot in Winnemucca, NV.

When I first got the rifle I HAD to have brass, and the only game in town was Bertram to the tune of $108/20, and I was flush enough to buy 40 cases. I had an 01 FFL, and at the time Midway had a pretty good deal for dealers. They had some Bertram brass on sale of which the 577-450's were part of and bought 60 more at ONLY $88/20. Once you've paid that, buying .43 Spanish, 11mm Mauser, and 45-90 later on kind of made them rather inexpensive (comparatively anyway :-)). I worked 12 shifts at night (6 to 6) by myself, with only a limited amount of stuff I was responsible for. As a consequence paper patching boolits wasn't a big chore, and it was like getting paid to do it:veryconfu At first I annealed the cases after their 3rd firing. I've since changed to the 5th firing. I've yet to lose the first Bertram case. I have them in their origional 20 round batches and the most senior of them have 32 firings on'em.

RCBS wanted $350 for dies. CH4D wanted $158 so I got those. Problem was they'd resize the necks to hold a .458" slug. No bueno pro ca-ca. I called them up and no problem they said. Send'em on back with the boolit I was using and a fired case and they'd take care of it no charge. Being the type who cannot stand waiting I searched case dimensions and discovered I could neck size via modifying a Lee 458 Win mag size die. Having a lathe made the mod easy to accomplish. I also had to bore out and re-thread the seater die. I have never yet to this day had to use the FL size die, and have neck sized only.

The friend I'd mentioned earlier who'd gotten the ammo somehow connected with the dude who'd originally had all this stuff. He also ended up with several small miniature actions, parts and sights and a few other full sized actions. He'd started a sporter on a Greener action and had lost interest in it. He asked if I thought $150 was too much, and I said nope!

http://www.fototime.com/F24AF897122CFE9/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8C8714312BCD32C/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/75D942E2844D619/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/9109FBD2EB448DC/standard.jpg

He'd bought really nice wood and had the butt in place, but hadn't finished the forend. The barrel is a sporter with fairly heavy walls and a nifty flip up rear sight with and elevator going to and indicated 600 yards. The barrel has ratchet rifling and is so marked. Also known as buttress rifling.

Due to the "Good Ole Boys" and their group buys over on the British and Militaria forums I was able to glom onto 2 nice grease groove type boolit moulds.

http://www.fototime.com/36D423A1D578B61/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/878978C4327FE50/standard.jpg

This is the 505gr design. The other I don't have a photo of but it's 456grs. I haven't done much work with either of them and have only shot them in the sporter. They haven't been as accurate as the PP'd slugs in the military rifle to date. The target shows the best I've gotten so far. The loads were 44, 45, 46, & 47grs. Each load, even though only one grain heavier showed a marked accuracy improvement. I made a .466" push through die to size these (.470") slugs through and hope to get some paper patched to see what they'll do then.

I have 80 turned brass cases made by the old Red Willow Armory, and have dedicated these to the sporter. Don't think the brass is the cause for the less then steller accuracy. But if after patching it does no better I'll then try the heavier Jamison brass (another group buy deal) :drinks: The Bertram has only been fired in the military rilfe and I would like to keep it that way.

.................Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Buckshot - Most interesting ! I have not shot my Martini-Henry with enough of
reloads made just one way to know how well it shoots !

The first rounds thru it were unpatched naked .457-450 LEE's and that was
just to open up (fireform) the Brass. Even so, I hit what I aimed at (hit a 500 yard metal Boar !).

After that, I shot ten variously patched bullets in the fireformed Brass where I had not
crimped the bullet.
The bullets just sit there fairly loose in the case.

Now I have 30 rounds all patched with four turns of tracing paper.
Most were wrapped with the egg-white water, but the last ten are dry wrapped.
I rub grease cookie on the paper to lube it.

I bought Goex BP, but have read and heard enough about Pyrodex to think maybe
this Anti-Pyrodex stuff is overboard, personal opinion that I should not take
very seriously until I personally experience problems (or not).

Some guys will only drink one brand of Beer and claim all others are drain water !
I must taste all of them myself before I form an opinion.....hmmmm? Don't you agree ?

This Martini-Henry Mark II is quite a rifle !
The loaded cartridge looks like a cannon shell !
People at the range are astounded when I open my box of reloads.

I'm having fun ! I just hope no band of Zulu's comes over the Hill at me....
I don't even have a Bayonet yet !

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DB,

You 'll come to necksizing those cases - that will give you the required bullet pull upon ignition. A loose bullet isn't that good an idea, not with the long, tapered martini throat. If you can seat the bullet to touch the rifling, no problem, but when you only have the case to hold it, you need some neck tension. BTW, 4 turns of paper might just turn out to be a bit much, but then again, you'll never know untill you try...

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

martinibelgian - Most interesting...

I have had two people on this very Forum (and the Castboolits Forum) tell me to do
just what I am doing and that not crimping works well for them and that four wraps
works for them.

I have a friend who shoots competition BP (with a Sharps) who also does
not crimp his Brass and he does not paper patch at all (GG).

Then another friend of mine insists that what you said is the case - I need
back pressure, so I should crimp !

Damned if I do - damned if I don't....Ha !

Ha ! Who's right, who's wrong ?
"Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third !", Abbott & Costello.
OK...who's on second ? No - Who's on first, What's on second...on and on....

I will see....
If I need to crimp, then I should see residue around the outside of the neck.
But my case necks are already fire formed to the maximum neck diameter of
the rifle's throat.

I have considered what would happen had I wrapped the outside necks of my new Jameson Brass
with one or two wraps of masking tape, then fire formed it ?
I'd have to dewrap them and rewrap them for each time I reload, but Lord - PP'ing and Lube
Cookying and etc and etc is enough already !

I don't have a second Martini-Henry...this one is the only one I am shooting them from.

At the range I am told that some competitors push the bullet into the barrel and then
load the filled case and fire - then reload that same case right then and there and compete
that way !

My next BP rifle will be a Sharps or a Springfield Trapdoor - not another Martini.
I am too "not rich' to afford a second Martini-Henry.
Right now, the Sharps and/or Springfield are a long way off - given the situation
with our economy.

Pray for a good Republican to win the election ! Not a RINO, either !
...is there a good Republican ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DB,

I NEVER said crimp - no need to crimp - ever!. I said necksize, totally different!

And both are right - but for different rifles:

In my match rifle, I use fireformed, unsized brass, bullet is a pretty loose fit - BUT when loaded, the bullet is touching the rifling (actually more than touching, the 1st bullet band is engraved). This provides initial resistance upon firing. Like your friend with his Sharps.

BUT in a military 577-450 martini, it is pretty much impossible to seat the bullet touching the rifling - so no initial resistance from the bullet hard against the lands. Therefore, you'll need another way to create that initial resistance - i.e. necksize the case and seat the bullet tight in the case neck.

However, the common element for both is - initial bullet resistance upon ignition
Why, you will ask? Well, you don't want the primer to bump the bullet out of the case before the powder has really ignited and built up some pressure. That will give you more consistency.

The goal is identical, but the means to get there is different. So in a way, both are right - but for different rifles/cartridges.

But don't crimp, crimping is not good, shortens brass life (and a roll crimp won't add all that much to bullet pull either). Necksizing is the best way to go in a military 577-450. these do require some different techniques from the typical BP rifle.

Easy? Not nearly.... Frustrating? Sometimes... Rewarding when it finally starts to shoot? You bet!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Neck size to what ?

Fire formed, my necks are 0.476 (mol) in diameter.

The nominal size to shoot (GG) is .468.

Paper Patched - what size ? How do I seat the bullet then without tearing apart
the patch as it seats ?

My LEE FL sizing die reduces the neck down something fierce !
Maybe I could lap it to open it up, but I am reluctant to do anything like that
until I learn more about this rifle's peculiarities.

How long will my Brass last if I go from .476 down to even .468 each time
I shoot this old lady ?

I am doing what I am doing to keep from eating up $3.40 each cartridges...

You may be perfectly right, then again she might shoot fine this way.
I have to shoot her more to find out. God Save the Queen !

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

Over the years I have tried just about everything that can be tried to get certain rifles to maintain consistent accuracy and within the latest 5 years of shooting BPCR here at home I have burned lots of BP.....and the mound on my range has seen nothing but PP bullets for the above stated time. Shooting PP bullets I finally discovered IN MY RIFLES....using a slight taper crimp gives me the consistent accuracy I desire....WITHOUT FLIERS and I get a MUCH CLEANER BURN! Back when I was shooting 'greasers' I never used any type of crimp as I partially sized the cases to give me the neck tension I desired. The neck tension I was using then was such that it also gave clean burns. I am of the opinion that BP needs some resistance to precipitate a clean burn...as well as consistent accuracy! Just my opinion based upon much shooting and accuracy testing! Shooting and obtaining desired accuracy with a BPCR is not much different than shooting modern rifles in that there generally (not always) will be one load/bullet that the rifle will shoot more accurately than many others; this being an axiom throughout the BPCR world with many shooters. I have tested on many days with good shooting conditions both non crimped (loose fitting bullets) and the same loading with lightly taper crimped loads and consistently I get better groups using the latter....no matter the range fired! The below group was fired with my 50 2 1/2 using a 720 gr. PP bullet using 114 grs. Swiss 1F from 1000 yds. All shots could have been inside the 20" diameter 10 ring plate had I been shooting for score...which I wasn't! I was testing the above loading for vertical dispersion and it is well within what I call acceptable accuracy! This particular rifle/loading combination has shot groups akin to this more than just a few times I might add. All loaded PP cartridges are given a light taper crimp and if not done so....it would be damn difficult to keep the shots on the mainframe!! Ask me how I know! My Shiloh 45 2 7/8 requires the same light taper crimp with all ammo loaded also!

DocBill....my opinion to you is you can read and post on this forum until you die at the monitor but in the final analysis you're gonna have to spend possibly lots of range time and trigger pulling before you decide....who's on 3rd! It also pays very well to have a BS filter installed and then you'll be able to decide fact from fiction!!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6164/6219369308_d0237eb2fd_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6219369308/)
10shots (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6219369308/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[Lead pot]

Rick,

How is that 110 shooting since you recut the lead?
Haven't heard you talk about it.

[RMulhern]

Rick,

How is that 110 shooting since you recut the lead?
Haven't heard you talk about it.

Kurt

Better than it ever has!! No paper rings...no frickin leading either!! Over the past 10 days (too dang warm to shoot earlier) I have been getting hunting zeros with it all the way back to 500 and I'm shickled titless with it! I'm shooting a 530 gr. BACO PP MB at 1-40 using 102 grs. KIK 2F and I get no wild/unexplained shots. Patched bullet is .4470" and seating it .140" into the Norma case. Using the little trick you told me about earlier....reference applying just a tat of taper crimp to the case after seating the upper wad before inserting the bullet works dandy!! I then apply a very light TC and saying it works well for accuracy is a slight under-statement!! Rdnck is sending me some bullets to try with a flat meplat that I'm also going to try. He shipped them today so I should have them maybe tomorrow.

Hook up that camper you've got and as they say on TV....COME ON DOWN!! I'll expose you to some good fried catfish and raw oysters! Bring ammo!!:idea::-P

[Lead pot]

The Doctors have me tied down right now cant even pick up the Sharps.
I'm all for the catfish but toe Oysters sort of reminds me of what I cough up. I could never re swallow what I coughed up[smilie=1:

[RMulhern]

The Doctors have me tied down right now cant even pick up the Sharps.
I'm all for the catfish but toe Oysters sort of reminds me of what I cough up. I could never re swallow what I coughed up[smilie=1:

Hope things improve soon for you! The oysters?? Naw...they slide down like greased lightening! Just lay one on a saltine cracker, sprinkle a little Tabasco sauce on....and down it goes![smilie=w::veryconfu

Got ya on my prayer list!! Hang tuff!![smilie=s:

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

RMulhern - I must admit that I have never used a "Taper" Crimp and so I had
to go here to learn:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm
and read the last part of it.

I then pulled out my LEE 577/450 Dies set and went about attempting it.

This is what resulted.

http://www.mynetimages.com/0c1a4765b7.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/4e0b3cf196.jpg

The crimping die finds my Paper Patch too large to fit the PP Slug w/o crushing
the paper to some extent.

The pp'ed slug wants to get stuck in the die unless I crimp the brass enough to grab the bullet.
Then I get what you see. It is rather tight in there.

Look at the right cartridge.

Is this what you were describing, or isn't that an actual crimp on the very end ?
Not sure I can do a 'taper' crimp with this die set.
Yup, the paper patch gets cut off by the end crimp.....
Am I doing this incorrectly ?

DoctorBill

PS - That thing in the upper left side of the first photo is an Overall Length measuring
device I make for all my reloading dies set to the maximum length for each
cartridge.
Made from my old plastic parking passes where I teach.
For the 577/450 it is cut to 79mm max length.

[Lead pot]

You have a roll crimp on your round.
The cartridge on the left has a proper taper crimp. The two 50 cal on the right have a light roll crimp.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/44-90BNjpg-1.jpghttp://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/5070side-1.jpg

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

So how does one obtain a Taper Crimp - is that another special die ?

Or do I do or have something done to my LEE Die ?

Endless.....

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

If I need to have a die made that I dont have a reamer for I dont go to Lee I send a couple cases here with the dimensions I need and they will make it for me.
http://www.ch4d.com/

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Ahhh yes. So there goes another $100 more or less....endless.

I knew I couldn't get off the hook inexpensively.

Back to where I was.

So the LEE die has a curve at the very top end that pushes the brass in and
forms that crimp ?
Or is the taper angle too sharp with the LEE Die ?

BTW - 450 grains of lead bullet inertia wouldn't act as a resistance to the
'exploding' BP - you need a taper crimp also ?

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

DocBill

No....there are other ways to get resistance against the bullet...as to your question of the 450 grs. giving 'enough inertia'! You can patch to slightly over-bore diameter and seat the bullet deeper whereby the paper rides into the lands akin to how you would load a 'greaser'; this method requires that you seat the bullet deeply into the case I might add. First it's best to find your true bore diameter and THEN......use a PP BULLET DESIGNED to fit the paper you're going to use to match your bullet to bore diameter if....you're going to patch to bore diameter. You also have to take into consideration the INTERIOR diameter of the mouth of the case. Ideally...if you're going to go the bore-diameter route....some folks patch such that when the round is chambered and extracted land marks can be observed upon the patch paper. Other shooters shoot UNDER BORE DIAMETER bullets which is what I do as I have found that my rifles perform best that way. In this method I partially resize my Norma cases such that the interior diameter of the case mouth is as close to the diameter of my bullets as possible such that they will just fit into the case by hand seating and then I use the taper crimp die to align the inserted bullet as near as possible to the longitudinal axis of the cartridge case without having any 'slop'. The TCD assist in this endeavor!

And no...you cannot use a standard seating die to apply a taper crimp! This takes a taper crimp die...if that's what you desire to do! A 'roll crimp' turns the top of the case mouth inward and that won't work! Follow Leadpot's advice! He knows what to do. He shoots a BN cartridge and probably has forgotten more about this than most people will ever know!!

[martinibelgian]

Rick,

Not in his case - he shoots a miltiary 577-450 Martini, that has an grossly oversize chamber followed by a looooong, tapered leade - he needs to shoot groove+ diameter, even in PP. Moreover, lots of bullet in that big case is a plus , there's really too much room in there (100+ grains in a military rifle really hurts too much for fun...).
Odds are that he wouldn't even be able to seat the bullet out enough to engage the rifling. This is a military chamber designed for foil cases with lots of slop, and made to work with lots of crud and fouling...

DB,
Neck sizing (or taper crimping) will indeed work your brass - which is why you need to anneal it frequently. That will stop it from splitting, and make it last longer. Now you have another subject to read up on...

But I hope you did notice everyone telling you that you need some initial resistance. And the bit about the BS filter was also true...

Both Kurt and Rick are pretty experienced shooters who know what works and what not - even though some things cannot be applied to your Martini Henry.

[Buckshot]

...............DoctorBill, your "Sticktoitiveness" is to be applauded :drinks: The thing to do to make it as simple as possible is to look at how the British did it in the first place, and why they did it the way they did. Naturally there were trade offs. They probably gave up a bit of ultimate accuracy for something else? Possibly making the cartridges more 'Transportable' ie: less apt to come apart in handeling, and better able to stand weather like heat, cold and rain. Remember they shipped them all over the world to their troops. Then they'd have to be shipped in wagons, etc & etc untill issued to troops.

I know of BPC shillhuette shooters were the boolit is barely retained in the case, and cases aren't resized at all. Not good for soldiers, handleing, or dampness. On page 3 of this thread you have cutaways of the British load. It clearly shows what they used to 'giterdone'. Might not have been the best for any particular purpose but due to their very thourogh testing, this was the best overall compromise. I'd mentioned in my previous post that I was gifted five loaded Kynoch 577-450 M-H cartridges. They were very similar to your photo's with the main exception being they were loaded with long strands of cordite smokless powder. I sacrificed one to get measurements.

The boolit weighed 481 grs and was patched with green paper. The paper was .0025" thick and consisted of 2 wraps, and was 'waxy' on it's external surface. The naked slug's OD was .459"on it's parallel surface and the boolit was 1.245" long.

From the base up, the width of the patch was .770", leaving .550" of bare lead tapering to a RN. Of that .770" width, .355" was inside the caseneck.

The boolit's base was cupped. The flat outer rim was .070" wide, and the cup's OD was .319" and was .045" deep. The naked slug had obviously been swaged, and had 2 cannelures rolled into it. Both cannelures were .050" wide and looked exactly like those 'toothed' cannelures rolled into some jacketed bullets, as if rolled on with a toothed wheel. The bottom of the first cannelure was .120" up from the base. The bottom of the top cannelure was .270" from the base. The caseneck had a .230" wide Taper Crimp.

The caseneck at the shoulder checked .507" OD. At the base or bottom of the taper the caseneck OD was .505". At the casemouth, the case OD was .500", midpoint between the 2 it was .503". Where the taper crimp began was obvious. The patched slug bore easily seen evidence of this taper crimp, with the position of the casemouth have formed a definitive 'ledge'. With the paper removed for measurements of the naked slug, the taper was also easily seen, as would be expected. In your photo of the cartridge loaded with BP, instead of the smokless load's taper crimp, they placed a very obvious roll (wheel) crimp into the caseneck somewhat above the boolit's base.

Under the PP'd boolit was nothing except a single card disc weighing 6.7 grs, .130" thick and having an OD of .465"

http://www.fototime.com/84C2840C23E9FD2/standard.jpg

Speaking of neck sizing, the above photo more clearly shows the type of neck sizing I apply to my 577-450 cases (on the left). The case has been fired and not yet necksized, but the remnant of it's previous sizing is evident. That silver looking thing isn't a cartridge case but an adaptor used ot allow the firing of 45 Colt's in the Martini. The 45-70 case is just there to show WHY an adaptor to allow 45-70's to be fired isn't practicable, as a few of us were arguing the subject at the time. As previously mentioned, the neck sizer was made from a modified Lee 458 Win mag FL size die.

http://www.fototime.com/57FDCC442C1911E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/270BFCD63A02CF7/standard.jpg

More on neck sizing, I was also tired of seeing the oversizing taking place in my 40-65 Rem RB. Since I'd purchased Redding insert type neck only dies and assorted inserts for my 308 rifle, I figured why not make a similar deal for the 40-65? And eventually for the 38-55 too. LEFT PHOTO: There is merely a threaded die body that's internally bored to accept the sizer ring from the top, and a ledge to stop it. Then you have the sizer ring and to the right is the stop/depth adjuster cap. Via threading in the die and/or the placement of the cap you may controll the depth of the sizing that takes place. RIGHT PHOTO: Simply a closeup of the insert showing the rounded radius of the leade. It was hardened as hard as the hubs of heck, then honed to size.

http://www.fototime.com/76048B8345C2DA4/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/95847C932E75A34/standard.jpg

The above photo's show the results of the neck sizer on fired 40-65's. Nothing on the body at all is touched. The right photo shows how even the sizing is performed around the case. After the case is neck sized, all that's required is the merest hint of a flare to ease the boolit (GG in this case) into the case. There is .003" of grip and the boolit's are seated to engrave the lands.

http://www.fototime.com/91E545D50A3571F/standard.jpg

The above is a a swaged PP'd slug for my 38-55. This boolit was the intitial OAL length slug. If it looks a bit odd on it's left side toward the nose was because it'd been dropped on a concrete floor :-) Since I was looking for engraving into the patch it didn't matter. These cases are the Starline 2.125" cases.

http://www.fototime.com/60E6988607F591E/standard.jpg

The first batch of 10 for testing. After initial fireforming they were partially sized no more then needed via backing the size die out. If you look closely you can see the tiny bit of flare remaining at the mouth. These 10 rou nd produced a .875" group at 100 yards. Well, to be honest one leaked out and opened things up a teensy, so 9 went .875".

You're going to have to look at necksizing only, and think about annealing your casenecks on occassion to help the brass live. With the correct necksizing and a faint flare, you might be able to get away without a crimp. Personally, I'm more partial to smokless then BP. As mentioned most of my Bertrams have over 25 firings on'em and some over 30 without a single lost case yet. I do have some Jamisson brass but haven't fired the first of the 577-450 flavor, and of the 577 Snider cases I've only fired 20 of'em once. I still kind of favor the Mag-Tech 24 ga hulls.

...............Buckshot

[RMulhern]

MIB

Yep...I forgot he's shooting a Zulu Special!!;-):grin:



Rick,

Not in his case - he shoots a miltiary 577-450 Martini, that has an grossly oversize chamber followed by a looooong, tapered leade - he needs to shoot groove+ diameter, even in PP. Moreover, lots of bullet in that big case is a plus , there's really too much room in there (100+ grains in a military rifle really hurts too much for fun...).
Odds are that he wouldn't even be able to seat the bullet out enough to engage the rifling. This is a military chamber designed for foil cases with lots of slop, and made to work with lots of crud and fouling...

DB,
Neck sizing (or taper crimping) will indeed work your brass - which is why you need to anneal it frequently. That will stop it from splitting, and make it last longer. Now you have another subject to read up on...

But I hope you did notice everyone telling you that you need some initial resistance. And the bit about the BS filter was also true...

Both Kurt and Rick are pretty experienced shooters who know what works and what not - even though some things cannot be applied to your Martini Henry.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My new "heading" for posting in this thread is above, because...

I am somewhat educated and somewhat confused by what has been said here.

Some of what has been said here does not apply to my "Zulu Special" as it has been rightly called.

:arrow: 1. My fire formed Jameson Brass Case Necks measure .474 to .478 Internal Diameter (ID). Large Chamber !

:arrow: 2. The barrel is the standard Martini-Henry Mk II .468 nominal bore (7 sided polygonal rifling). In good shape.

:arrow: 3. My cases are much, much too expensive to be resizing down from .475 (average) to .460 (mol)
every time I shoot. I want them to last a long time.

:arrow: 4. I am planning to order a Taper Crimping Die when I accumulate some more money !
I do need to figure out exactly WHAT dimensions I need to order to accomplish the above.
That depends on the bullet I finally choose to use.

:arrow: 5. My machinist friend has offered to Mill Open a second LEE 457-450 Mold that I just purchased
to whatever I want. I am thinking that a straight sided .462 would be about right.
That is - he will mill straight down to the ogive (or less) leaving a straight sided bullet that I will then paper patch
to the diameter I want (.468 for now). It might go up to 500 grains ! Not going for GG bullets.

The Image below was created by me via PhotoShop - it does not exist yet ! I'm not Walt Disney...
http://www.mynetimages.com/0e352d897b.jpg
...........................Can't decide on which one yet.

That will have cost me just $19 for the mold instead of $120 plus shipping from the Australian outfit.

:arrow: 6. I have 30 rounds loaded up as I have previously posted and will go to the range today
and see what they do at 50 meters. I am not a good enough shot to test them at 100 meters...yet.

:arrow: 7. I am trying different loading components right now. See my last post on them.
I have to have some consistent load to use before I vary anything else.

Given all the above 'boundry conditions', I am left with the goal of finding a Final Bullet to use
(paper patched) and obtaining a Taper Crimp Die to hold it in the case.

I have to do what will work best for my "Zulu Special" and fit within my modest budget.

DoctorBill

I don't think I should have purchased that LEE Three Die Set - I don't use it at all with this rifle....
anyone want to buy it for $90 plus shipping ?

[martinibelgian]

DoctorBill,

A patched diameter of .468 to .470 sounds about right. I would also give those 4-wrap bullets a test, you never know - after all, Henry rifling is pretty deep.
Consider what happens when you pull the trigger:
The bullet - assuming enough neck tension - will slug up almost immediately to throat diameter (.480 - .490) to be gently swaged down in the 1st tapered part of the barrel (about 1/3) while going up the bore. A .459 bullet will needs to deform MUCH more than a bullet that is bigger to start with
To make your brass last, anneal it - frequently. Annealing prevents stress cracking, and your brass will last as long as your primer pockets, even with necksizing.... And if you're necksizing from .475 to .470, that's really light.
And don't forget - it's the trip that will give you the pleasure, not the goal!
As a temp solution, try those loads and see what gives. - but to get the best out of it, you'll need to get some neck tension on that bullet.
A good bullet? about 480-500grains, no borerider, .468-.470 diameter, pretty short nose to keep bullet short enough, bur bearing surface as long as possible - IOW, how a 45-70 should NOT be.
And don't forget the main point - have fun!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

As a latent suggestion now that you are ready to start the chase, take lots of before and after firing dimensional measurements of the cases. Try to note also any barrel leading, where it is, how it is, how the lube is helping and of course whether it was warm,cold,dry, humid, hot barrel, slow firing cadence, etc..

Think what appeared to be a positive influence and what did not. Did the patch appear like a powdery mist as the bullet cleared the barrel, or did you find shreds on the target. Use a big paper to catch the bullets so not a shot is wasted. Track the firing progression of hits on a clean target

Keep your fingers crossed in between trigger work.

BvT

[Lead pot]

DB.

Before gathering up a bunch of loading for that rifle I would listen to guys like Martini that shoot these rifles and know them well.
The only input I will make regarding the Martini because I dont have one and I dont know what they have for a throat or chamber dimensions. But what I'm going to suggest to you is make a chamber cast of at least 1/2 of the chamber and a inch past the chamber end just past the throat. This will give you the dimensions you need for a proper PP or GG bullet for this rifle and have a mould made to fit your rifle's throat. Yes the cost will be more then a Lee but you will make up the difference on the brass you will save from not over working the necks.
Like I said I don't know the nature of the throat of the Martini but Martini said it had a fairly long free bore and I dont know if it is a cylinder type or tapered from the chamber case neck wall I call this a lead if it is tapered. If it is a straight cylinder type I call this free bore before the lead.
Once you have the cast and get your dimensions you select the paper thickness you can get most of and subtract the case wall thickness X2 (if the case neck wall is .011" you subtract .022" plus your paper thickness X4 and patch it to .002 under groove or bore diameter. I choose my paper thickness so two wraps will patch it to .001 over the depth of the grooves. Martininbelgain recommended patching to groove I would listen to that advice, because he shoots one.
The closest production mould you might be able to get might be NEI. http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I am about to leave for the range - 30 minute drive away.
Have to carry more **** than if I had a baby in the car !

"Did the patch appear like a powdery mist as the bullet cleared the barrel..."
All I see is a huge cloud of smoke !
Then I choke if the breeze is blowing back toward me....Ha !

I have never seen any sign of paper anywhere.
A few paper disks were about 20 feet in front of the bench, but just a few.
Never have seen any Lube Cookies or parts of them.
The target's holes are clean and HUGE ! I use posterboards taped to cardboard.

http://www.mynetimages.com/784488a1ae.jpg

The holes stay open and are easy to see with my spotting scope.
I use a 2 x 3 ft cardboard since I am such a sniper-like shooter !
I drive tacks with a sledge hammer. BIG tacks !

To be quite honest with you, I have no idea what lead in the barrel looks like !

So - I'm off to see the wizard......

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Here is where I go shooting - closest place to where I live.
http://www.mynetimages.com/eadf2582b7.jpg

The bench I used today.
http://www.mynetimages.com/eb1498736f.jpg

Your's truly about a second after firing a shot off.
http://www.mynetimages.com/cf393f6e1d.jpg

Long story here - see explanation below.
http://www.mynetimages.com/bd29ad0ec1.jpg

Remnants of paper patches found in front of bench.
http://www.mynetimages.com/19b4087ed9.jpg

I am quite happy with what I found out today - and - I love this rifle !

Shot at the target - sights on center circle - at 50 meters.

I tend to acquire the target and fire quickly.
If I set there and study the aim and wait until it is just so, then I really start missing worse.

First shot - where'd it go ! ?
Second shot - saw dust from bullet hitting way above target frame.

Third shot - aimed about 6 inches below circle.

Fourth and subsequent shots at yellow aim point below target wood.

Wasn't the Martini set up to 200 yards ?

THEN - once I knew where it was going (got bored), I took aim at the 485 m (500 yard)
Metal Buffalo Gong.
Hit just below the head.
Tried again and hit it !
Then again....hit it !

The Rangemaster (nice fellow BP Shooter) wanted to shoot the M-H so I let him.
Several rounds.

He had been shooting an Uberti Sharps (on cement to right of bench).

So after that, I shot at the 600 m round metal Gong and came within
6'' to 12" of it twice.
The Range Master was watching for me in his spotting scope.

I tried at the 1,000 m metal gong target, but I have no idea where the bullet
went. Like aiming up at a 30 degree angle ! I'll get it though...someday.

Then the Range Master fired off several more. He really likes the Martini !

I searched the ground in front of the bench and found a lot of my paper patches.
The four wraps of Tracing Paper is working quite nicely.....
Notice the Lube Cookie Grease that the paper patch is wiping out of the barrel.

Hardly anything came out of the barrel with a dry patch after 6 shots.
The Lube Cookie I used is working nicely. The PP Bullets are wiping the barrel out
as per the plan.

I think maybe I'm there. I'm not going to worry so much about the Taper Crimper.
I'll buy it when I have some more money....lol.

I just don't understand why I shot better at long range than at 50 meters.....

Can't wait to try the straight sided bullet (paper patched, of course) that my machinist
friend is working on soon with his milling machine.
Which would fly truer, "A" or "B" ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DoctorBill,

Just keep working - the rifle will put 'em in a ragged hole at 50 if you're able to - and the ammo is right. And good for you that the thick wrap is working. However, if you look at the paper, you'll see that it isn't sliced through - I prefer to have the rifling cut the paper to shreds.
Now you'll have to experiment and see whatever works best for you.
And as to which will work best, I'll put my money of the 'fatter' bullet - but you never know, each rifle is different.
Just keep us updated!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

:arrow: - When I put my MHR Brass in a bottle of dilute vinegar at the range, there was a
great deal of black residue "sludge" in the bottle by the time I got home.

I should have checked the pH of that vinegar sludge to see if it was still acidic
(still with vinegar left) or alkaline.
I didn't think of it until later while I was rinsing the brass off with warm soapy tap water.

Had it been alkaline, then the vinegar I had put into the bottle was not enough !
This is important as the whole idea is to keep the Brass slightly acidic.
If there were not sufficient vinegar, the resut is the same as just tossing the
brass into a bottle of tap water !

If you are going to do this vinegar treatment to your brass, you have to make sure
that you have enough excess vinegar to neutralize the alkaline Black Powder Residue....
and still remain acidic.

:arrow: - Yesterday I deburred the inside flash holes in my Jamison 577/450 Brass.
Used a homemade tool.

My 577/450 Brass is all cleaned up, polished and deburred - read to do it again !

Still no GAD Brass has arrived after 30 days - Nelson said on the phone that I'd get it this week...nope.

Has anyone reading this ever ordered Brass or Cartridges from GAD Custom Cartridges ?
http://gadcustomcartridges.com/

:arrow: - My 577/450 Brass now measures out (measured a random ten after 2nd firing):
- ID - - - - - - - - OD -

477-79 - - - - - -511
477 - - - - - - - 511-12
476-77 - - - - 510-11
476-79 - - - - - 511
476 - - - - - - - - 511
479 - - - - - - - 510-11
476 - - - - - - - 510-11
475-77 - - - - - 510-12
476 - - - - - - - - - 511
476-77 - - - - - 510-12

That is my M-H's chamber size. Consistent with last time (after fire forming).

http://www.mynetimages.com/451d63714b.jpg

What dimensions would I order for a Taper Crimp Die to hold a paper patched bullet
of final OD of 0.474 ?
Obviously 510 OD, but how do you specify the "Taper" ?
510 - 508 OD - bottom of neck to top of neck, maybe ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DrBill,

If it has a taper, it will be kinda flexible - you can adjust it up or down to suit. just make sure it is big enough at the bottom so that your cases will run in easily, and small enough at the top for thin-walled, reformed magtech brass and an inside diameter of .465. Also, the case when run up completely shouldn't touch the die body. You could actually ask Buckshot on this forum to make you one - I know he did some work for several peole on this forum, most of which seem to be pleased... AND he will know from personal experience what you will need!


BTW, don't forget about annealing! You'll come all too soon to that required next step...

enjoy,
Gert

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I went back and re-read Buckshot's post of 10-27-11 on the Martini Henry Cartridge
that he disassembled.

I think I fit into his, "I know of BPC shillhuette shooters where the boolit is barely retained in the case,
and cases aren't resized at all."

Since I don't want to resize my cases and only want to Taper Crimp them,
I am condemned to find a paper of the proper thickness to come up with
a PP Bullet of close to .475 mol.

That has been fun....

Been lurking all over the place trying to find a paper that will roll onto this .457
slug either wet or dry and end up at .475 inch dry.

My young daughter had brought home a roll of paper 4 years ago, that she
had obtained from her High School to make Banners for a Car Wash for her
Basketball team.

Three rolls of that comes out just a tad larger than .475 - almost can't get it
into the unsized, fire formed case.
A "Tad" is just a little bit larger than a "Framistan".

All this may be a moot point once I get the milled out mold and the straight sided
bullets at .462 mol....
Then I will have to come up with some paper that works out for that and with fewer wraps.

So, I kind of don't want to spend a lot of time farting around rolling these .457 bullets
if I won't be using them in the future.

I hate sitting around waiting.
But I have to wait until I get the final paper patched bullet size before I can ask anyone to
make a Taper Crimp Die.

Question - If I have the larger sided bullet made (A), would I have to paper patch out
past the leading edge of the flat portion, or not ? - Would "A" really be a wadcutter ?
http://www.mynetimages.com/0e352d897b.jpg

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

Well,,

There's always bullet sizers - just purchase a Lee sizer, and hone it out to whatever diameter you like. Then run the patched bullet through that die and you're there. BTW, that taper crimp die , the way it is used, kinda equates to necksizing.
And as to the bullet - I'd go somewhere between the 2: a long bearing surface for sure won't hurt with the 577-450. Of course, for longer-range work, you might need a more aerodynamical nose though.
Tip of the week: find a paper, then have the mould milled out to a diameter that will work with THAT paper - much easier than the other way around!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My friend is going to mill out that LEE mold this afternoon at 1 PM - about
four hours from now.

I think a 464 bullet diameter would allow me to paper patch up to 476 easily w/o
too many layers.

The LEE roll crimp die that I have - can that be honed out to make it into a taper die ?
Does it roll crimp because of a curl up near the top edge ?

If it can't be modified, I might as well sell the Die Set to someone who can use it.
I don't want to full length size, I fill the cases via a funnel and I can't use the
roll crimper/bullet seater.

I only need the Number 17 Shell Holder for priming and de-priming !
I deprime with a hand held de-priming rod and a small tap hammer.
I can order the Shell Holder by itself.....
http://www.mynetimages.com/58842d17df.jpg

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

Kurt, Rick correct me if I'm wrong, but you gents do use that taper crimp on an empty case, before seating the bullet? Not in the classic way of taper crimping, with the bullet in place...
If so, you would still have some use for some kind of expander, at least. And maybe the seater. Besides, should you decide to have a go at converting Magtech brass to 577-450, then the dies will be pretty useful.
BTW, have you already tried the sizer die backed out partially, you might just get lucky and get enough sizing for the case neck... both body and neck are tapered.

[Lead pot]

Kurt, Rick correct me if I'm wrong, but you gents do use that taper crimp on an empty case, before seating the bullet? Not in the classic way of taper crimping, with the bullet in place...
If so, you would still have some use for some kind of expander, at least. And maybe the seater. Besides, should you decide to have a go at converting Magtech brass to 577-450, then the dies will be pretty useful.
BTW, have you already tried the sizer die backed out partially, you might just get lucky and get enough sizing for the case neck... both body and neck are tapered.

Yes that is the way I do it, but I didn't want to get into this with D/B because this will take a little work making an expander. I have a lathe and it is no problem making what ever I need. .
Using a taper crimp die by it's self is ok if you dont over crimp but it's hard to get a consistent hold on the bullet because of the brass spring back and a portion of the bullet shank does deformed to a point.
But again if the best accuracy for match loads are not needed there is no need to go through all this work.
it's just my way to get a more consistent bullet tension and a very consistent release that keeps the ES in the lower single ES.

Forgot.

Yes I neck size by backing out the sizing die, but in my case with custom made black powder obsolete bottle neck cases I just cant seem to get the proper diameters even sending the die maker several annealed fired cases form my chamber.
Lately I been having my reamers made and I make my own loading dies using die blanks and the problem is solved.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My friend, Gary, used his milling machine and removed aluminum from a new
LEE 0.457/450 mold to make this modified mold.

One side he made 0.465 inch diameter - the other 0.462 inch diameter.
The straight side is 0.85 inches long.

http://www.mynetimages.com/51d7b6f600.jpg

Here is the product and their measured dimensions. Ten of each. Not enough made
to do a good study - it is dark and cold outside and I have to grade papers for my class.

0.462 side yields - 477 grains (average) mass with 0.463 in diameter bullet

0.465 side yields - 484 grain mass with 0.466 in diameter bullet.

http://www.mynetimages.com/aa0a2ebbe2.jpg

My God...Gary does such nice work - he is amazing to watch !

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

Kurt, Rick correct me if I'm wrong, but you gents do use that taper crimp on an empty case, before seating the bullet? Not in the classic way of taper crimping, with the bullet in place...
If so, you would still have some use for some kind of expander, at least. And maybe the seater. Besides, should you decide to have a go at converting Magtech brass to 577-450, then the dies will be pretty useful.
BTW, have you already tried the sizer die backed out partially, you might just get lucky and get enough sizing for the case neck... both body and neck are tapered.

MIB

In answer....I use the standard TCD to do all I need to do! MIB....keep in mind that I am running my patched bullets through a Fred Cornell Sizing die.....AFTER they are patched and dried; taking them down to an OD of .4465"...and this procedure has rendered to me better than EXCELLENT results at the target! I set the TCD such that after I have seated the upper veggie wad...I then run all the cases through the TCD which approximates closely the external dimension of my bullets....which aligns the bullet quite well. I then reset the TCD to give me my final taper crimp. I do not have to expand the case for bullet seating by hand![smilie=w::popcorn:

[Buckshot]

................I shoot only smokless in my MkIV Martini Henry. Cases are necksized to .469" ID. A slight flare is applied, boolit seated, mild taper crimp applied. Done deal.

An 'as cast' 45 cal rifle boolit (I use the Lee 457-405-F (solid)) at .459" and then 2 wraps of 20lb bond (.004" paper). When dry I have a .472" slug. I anneal every 5th firing (Bertram brass). Most senior of my Bertrams have over 30 firings with zero loses.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

I believe the above is mostly repeated info I believe, but to re-iterate I have practically zero experience with BP loaded 577-450. Or I'll back up and say. "With CORRECTLY loaded BP 577-450.

For the taper crimp insert I simply used a taper pin reamer which is .125" taper per 12".

.............Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Buckshot - I am confused. I know just enough machining to be dangerous to myself.
You said, "For the taper crimp insert I simply used a taper pin reamer which is .125" taper per 12"

Isn't that a drill like device for making tapered holes in something ?
Is that the tool that you use to make a Taper Crimp Die ?
Out of steel that you then heat harden ?
I was wondering if one could buy a TAPER PIN REAMER of the appropriate dimensions and then
ream out a piece of Brass or Mild Steel about 5/8 inch thick and then simply load the bullets in
the cases and place the Taper Crimp Tool (just made) over the Case Neck and "lightly tap"
it down with a tube (bottle cap, plastic pipe nipple) that fits over the protruding bullet - all by hand.

Inexpensive

Half-A**ed Idea -

http://www.mynetimages.com/07e27fed29.jpg

Since it is tapered, it should pop right off with a slight tap.....

Am I full of horse pucky ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DB,

You're forgetting the most important element - consistency. "lightly tap" is pretty hard to do consistently, and any lack of consistency will show up on target. Something that will fit in a reloading press will do much better...
FWIW, Buckshot's procedure is more or less identical to mine - minimal resizing to get some neck tension, minimal case mouth expansion, frequent annealing - and your cases will just keep going.

[DoctorBill]

I suppose you are right...toss that one.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

If your 5/8" thick collar is threaded, pinned, or glued into a piece of pipe, it becomes a 'die'.
Cut off the bottom of the die at a length which puts the collar in the right location on the case neck ... when the die is in contact with your bench. Then, no matter how hard you hit it, it will never go further down that the workbench surface allows.

A lot of reloading tools over the years were used with no press to control their function.
Just look at the Lee Loader, for Pete's sake.

CM

[Red River Rick]

DoctorBill:

Amazing thread, what started out as "Spit Substitute", ending up into a full blown "ZULU SPECIAL" boolit loading thread. I must admit, it is a very interesting thread.

You've put more time into this than the BRITISH did developing the CARTRIDGE!

I have a couple of "ZULU SPECIALS" as well, originals. They are indeed a lot of fun to shoot, as you are well aware of, by now.

BTW, they (the British) said at a 100 meters, the bullet would pass thru 3 Zulu warriors with shields.................5 without.

Nice going!
:drinks:

RRR

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I just watched "Zulu Dawn" from 1979 with Burt Lancaster and Peter O'Toole.
OMG - hundreds of Martini-henry's !......and I only have ONE !

Yes, Red River Rick, the 577/450 was/is an awesome round !
I read somewhere that British hunters in Africa brought down Cape Buffaloes
and even Elephants with that round, plus Lions and Tigers and Bears.

As to this thread meandering around....yes it does.

I disdain writing a new post for every single thing outside of one train of thought.

I suppose the Moderators don't appreciate this thread much.

Looks like my idea for a hand operated Taper Crimper went over like a lead balloon.

But I notice something.....

For every hobby that I have had (and I have had a lot - I'm a dilettante),
I have run into at least two kinds of people.

One type seems to have a box from which they can pull endless supplies of money.

They have THE best rifle or Transmitter or automobile or tractor or whatever
that money can buy. No limits. "Top That !"
I'm not trying to put anyone down - If I had a lot of money, I'd probably be that way.

God just made me to be lower middle class and seems to want to keep me that way !
People who don't have a lot of money who have to do workarounds and save a few dollars
here and there so they can get the most inexpensive goodies that are available.

So I have not given up....I think I'll somehow scrabble up a homemade Taper Crimper
(certainly not a 'Die'), so that when the time comes, I can have some money to go buy
one of them thar Springfield Trap Door 45-70's that I am now lusting after....
...don't think I'll ever be able to afford a Sharps 45-70.

Not a new Springfield made today, nor even an old one in perfect shape.
But I'll get my hands on one and then bug some other Forum specializing in
Springfield Trap Door Rifles.

Endless fun !

I just don't know where I'm going to store all these damned rifles !
I'm running out of room and my wife is starting to wonder if I am not crazy.

Lord help me if I get interested in old pistols !

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

Doc

No problem! We understand! Here's a low $$$$ tool which will give you a taper crimp if employed judiciously!!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6231/6304412078_cd3c5a9f03.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6304412078/)
Picture-Of-Pliers (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6304412078/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

OK...go ahead and make fun of me.

I already tried those !

Too hard on my Brass - ruined five of my cases !

But they are very good for pre-shredding the paper on my paper patched bullets !
Just squish the paper all around on the bullet with those sharp pipe grippers, load it in and then
it comes out all nice and cut up as the bullet leaves the barrel. No kidding !

I also like them for holding onto the front end of my Martini-Henry while I'm cleaning it.
Helps keep it from turning as I run emery paper down the barrel to get all that rust out from
when I forget to clean it for a month after shooting it.

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

No Doc

Not laughing...just testing your 'sense of humor'! Any man that can laugh at himself shows intellect...so I guess you'll do!![smilie=f:

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Nothing is more curious than the almost savage
hostility that humor excites in those who lack it.
- George Saintsbury

I may have humor, but I have no sense....

I told the Doctor that it hurts when I do this.
He said, "Don't do that !"
Henny Youngman

Sex at 68 is like playing pool with a rope. George Burns.

Back to Taper Crimping.....do you think a block of Brass would do instead of Steel ?
I'm not going to crimp thousands of them !
After all, I'm 68 and can see the end of the tunnel looming up !

I'd bet even a piece of OAK would do in a pinch ! It would have to be stained and oiled first.....

You know - it would be a lot of fun to sit down around a camp fire and talk with all you guys, and of
course, have several cases of beer and a box of Honduran cigars.

Consider this....a couple of weeks ago, I bought a Martini-Henry, some empty Brass and a bullet
mold. Now I can reload that Brass, paper wrap cast bullets and by God - Hit a Metal Boar Gong at
500 yards with that reloaded ammo shooting it thru a 133 year old rifle ! I'm not doing too bad !

I think I'll go and wrap some more bullets.....

DoctorBill

[Buckshot]

...............Considering the standard rifle load was 85.0grs of Curtis & Harvey's something or other, and a 480gr slug, those ole dudes were some manly men, and no doubt. My one excursion (added here for entertainment only, and totally without any edjumakashuna value) into loading and shooting my MkIV with black powder was a dismal and painfull experience. I knew, or had heard enough to cause me problems. In my own defense it was very early in my Martini journey and well before the internet as we know it today.

I knew the case was supposed to hold 85.0grs of BP and was capped with an attractively shaped 480gr patched RN lead slug. I had the Lee 457-450-F mould which was as close as I could come, and hadn't an inkling, or a glimmer of an idea of paper patching, so nixed the deal to eliminate that difficulty. I poured 85.0 grains of GOEX 2Fg into a case. You couldn't even see it in the case with a flashlight. I KNEW (heard or read) that there should be NO AIRSPACE between boolit and the BP charge. So I decanted enough more powder into the case to get it into the base of the neck.

Holy cow! When I dumped it out into the scale pan it was something like 120 grs! With some measureing it seemed I still had a good 1/2" of air under a seated boolit. I sure wasn't going to put anymore powder in there, so defaulted to using some cornmeal to fill up the balance of the caseneck. I loaded up 20 rounds. Next Tuesday at the range I set up a target at 50 yards and sat down at the bench withthe rifle's forend atop a couple sandbags and loaded a round. I really had no idea what to expect. I took a deep seat and a distant look and squeezed the trigger.

Holy Hanna on a pogo stick! I thought I'd been involved in my own personal locomotive wreak. When the smoke cleared I could see a hole in my target. To eliminate any suspense I'll hastily add that NONE of those holes became very clannish, and the entire target was pretty much all used up at the end. I was also pretty sure I was the only shooter on the line who could clap both his shoulder blades together:wink: I figured if I was to fire them off rapidly, cumulative damage to my shoulder could be minimized? I forget now how many I fired off, maybe 4-5 and figured I'd had about all I could stand. By then the whole left side of the rifle was covered in slobber. I began to try and hunt up ignorant suspects to help me in getting the balance of the infernal things emptied out, and I finally did get the chore completed. Those 20 rounds constitute the entireity of my experience with BP in the 577-450 Martini Henry.

Taper crimp. I merely used a piece of 2" long 7/8" OD 12L14 steel, as it machines like cheese. I used a #9 taper reamer, which is .4805" at the small end and .6066" at the big end. Since the Bertram brass is .015" thick at the mouth and given a .472" slug, I figured .502" caseneck OD, loaded. I had no loaded ammo at the time, but figured simple adjustments could be made to suit. With the piece of steel in a collet, I step drilled to 31/64 (.484"), then bored to .499". I put the reamer in the tailstock and ran it up to touch the bore and zeroed the readout on the tailstock. I then ran the reamer in 1.995". I honed the bore and at the small end brought it to .500". After that I threaded 1" of the top end for the reloading press. I knew I'd have to remove some of the bottom of the die.

I had to wait to finish it until I had loaded some ammo, and that caseneck OD of.502" turned out to be fine. The .500" small end compresses the casemouth .002" (give or take the odd few tenths) and after about 1/4" tapers out to where it doesn't touch. Put another way the width of the total crimp is about 1/4".

.................Buckshot

[goofyoldfart]

Doc Bill: to reiterate what Buckshot said --- your idea of using a 5/8ths in. piece of brass or steel to make a "tapper taper tool" utilizing the tube to a proper length is an excellent inexpensive way to go about making a tool to see if it works. I wouldn't say to throw out that idea. I'm 67 and all that I have is a drill press, 4 1/2" grinder (hand held) files, hacksaws and stubborn "stickwithititis". you might be surprised at what I can make with just those tools. Yea, takes time, but who cares? I'm retired and on social security so I've learned to think outside of the box. :wink: This thread has given me many ideas for my Martini-Enfield 45-70. Don't have a lot of money so it's time for work arounds:grin: I have really enjoyed this thread and all of the advice. DON'T GIVE UP!!!!!!!! Your doing fine. Sheeesh---I can't even see 500m with out a scope or bino's:mrgreen::veryconfu. Heck, you hit the durn thing.:mrgreen::bigsmyl2: God Bless to all. (I know--not PC.I don't care)

Gof < aka goofyoldfart or goofy>
:lovebooli:cbpour::redneck:

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My machinist friend insists that he can make a DIE for me to Taper Crimp my
rounds in my RCBS Press.
He is going to use a "Pin Hone" (if I understand this correctly) after he cuts the
hole on his Lathe.
Then he is going to thread the steel rod, on his Lathe, to fit the 1 1/4 - 12 threads of
the Press.

I just stand there in awe...and watch.

I've been wrapping both the .463 and the .466 bullets from the mold that he
milled out (see previous posts here) with different types and thicknesses of paper.

Trying.....tap water wet wrapping

Newsprint (.004)
Coffee Filter Paper (.003)
Butcher Paper (.004)
Tracing Paper (.002)
Cotton (100%) Velum (.002) Expensive
Banner Paper (.004)

I am staying away from paper with Titanium Dioxide ( TiO2 ) - the white
glaze used to make computer and writing paper (call it clay if you want).
Don't want that wearing on the rifling.

2 wraps .466 bullet - 3 wraps .463 bullet.

All of the papers work nicely except the Butcher Paper, which tears easily when wet.

Some fit loosely - others fit very tightly - some too big.

IDEA - Could one make small razor blade slits on the paper strip on the leading
edge to facilitate it stripping off as it leaves the barrel ?
The bullet spins Clockwise (right hand twist) as you watch it go away from you - right ?

I learn something new every day and all of you have contributed a lot to my
"edjumakashun", as Buckshot says.

I thank all of you ! Profusely.

The weather here is starting to get crappy as winter approaches -
as always in Eastern Washington State.
I will just have to get used to shooting with cold, wet feet and to slipping
and falling on my **** going to the targets.

Does anyone have any 'spent uranium' from spent shells over in Iraq ?
We could try paper patching some of that to punch holes in the Gongs at
our ranges....
Or maybe even some Carbide slugs - seems you could shoot anything paper patched.
After all, it never touches the rifling !
How about Mercury frozen in Dry Ice and pushed into the case just before firing ?
Saw an old movie where someone used bullets of frozen water to commit a murder and
since they couldn't find the bullet.....but Charlie Chan figured it out !

It's "Bed Time" (11:12 PST) for old farts and I'm one of them - so night guys !

DoctorBill

PS - why does this Forum nullify my "Log In" so quickly ?
Can I set the default 'log out' time somewhere ?

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My friend made a Taper Crimp Die on his lathe this afternoon.

He decided to make it regular die size instead of 1 1/4 - 12.

Amazing process to watch ! He is amazing.
He isn't bothered with all my questions like some people are.
Showed me how to temper metal with a torch.

So now I have to pick a paper out of the five different kinds I've been trying
and then reload a bunch and go shoot them.

I believe I now be a Martini-Henry BP Cartridge reloader.

If I could just hit dem rascawee tawgets !

http://www.mynetimages.com/83bb6bbd71.jpg

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

More on the continuing Saga of my Martini-Henry Reloading.....

I just ordered 50 Magtech 24 Ga Brass Cartridges from BuffaloArms.com for
about what I'd have paid at Cabelas - but with Idaho State Tax added on.
($23 x 2) + $7 shipping vs $27 each plus Sales Tax (Cabelas).

I am going to "Try" reforming them.

NOW.....my machinist friend Gary just called and I told him about the method some have
used where they use a 9/16th in Die, then use the LEE Die (2 Steps)

He suggested letting him slowly squeeze the necks down using his Collet Clamps
on his Lathe and/or Milling Machines.

http://www.mynetimages.com/caa8664334.jpg

Just keep carefully turning the Brass while slowly squeezing the necks in small steps
down - close to what the LEE Die is set for.

This would make the final LEE Die step less difficult. (?)

He even has a hand turn device to do this manually....

Maybe also stepping the Brass near where the shoulder goes...

We will try that method next week when the Magtech Brass arrives !

The Queen's Own Martini-Henry -
http://www.mynetimages.com/1cd0e2cb32.jpg
- should then finish the job by fire forming the cases.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Well...I went and dood it....

The BIG Gun Show was in Spokane this weekend.
Wasn't going to go, else I'd buy another rifle !

My machinist friend, Gary, kind of talked me into going, though.
He said, "I was going to go, but if you're not going, I guess I won't either..."
Right ! So I HAD to go. Couldn't let Gary down....could I ?

So there I am staring at an H&R US Cavalry Model 1875 Trapdoor Springfield BP Rifle.
All NEW - Never Shot - $600.....LORD ! Help me get control of myself !

It was near closing and the seller came down to $525....

Gary is all for me buying it - says it is made with Modern Steel, etc.
Didn't take any cash so's I wouldn't be able to buy a rifle.
Gary starts plunking down five $100 bills....what could I do ? Trapped...

Bought it. Will pay Gary back tomorrow. It's all his fault....I'm innocent !

Cannot find any photos of them on Google Images ! They stopped making them
in 1987, I remember the guy saying.

http://www.mynetimages.com/a89b7ce263.jpg

A big 'P' on left side of receiver and on the underside of the butt end of the stock.

http://www.mynetimages.com/06e793aa6a.jpg

The seller's brother owned a Gun Shop and died and so he was selling off his brother's inventory.
Well....?
Some worn spots on the bluing - looks like from being on a gun rack a long time.

So now I'll be starting a Thread on reloading and shooting 45-70's

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=132661

Have any of you ever paper patched for 45-70 ?
Would one need .44 cal bullets to PP for .45 cal ?
The barrel slugged out to .445 - .461.

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

I have a question, Was it the .577-450 Martini or was it the .577 snider used in the Zulu war??
I always thought it was the Snider that was used.

[RMulhern]

I have a question, Was it the .577-450 Martini or was it the .577 snider used in the Zulu war??
I always thought it was the Snider that was used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry

[Buckshot]

I have a question, Was it the .577-450 Martini or was it the .577 snider used in the Zulu war??
I always thought it was the Snider that was used.

............I believe the only major campaign the Snider took part in was the Abyssinian punitive expedition of 1868.

DoctorBill,

I've got one of those :-) It's the Little Big Horn Commemorative carbine. It's like new but I bought it used at one of the last few large LA gunshows. I don't recall what I paid for it now.

http://www.fototime.com/5910E3F3A49AD40/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/6FB1E451F888E31/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/0A77CE2081CA175/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/DD20159DEB531E2/standard.jpg

At least you won't have to go through any reloading shenanigans to get it shooting. Modern steels or not, don't stray from Trapdoor rated loads. I hope your's shoots as well as mine. It's a lot of fun. My favorite load is the Lee 340gr over 28.0 grains of H4198.

................Buckshot

[Lead pot]

The Wikipedia has the Snider listed in the Zulu Wars also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

Man, that had to have been a bloody war.
Some day people will learn not to enforce there will on others.