25 stevens rimfire

[SSGOldfart]

any body now where I can get a few of these old rimfire rounds[smilie=b:

[jon skorepa]

shootable rounds can be made fron 22 hornet cartridges with 22 rf primed case or 22blank as primer. check out single shot exchange magazine for detailed procedure. i dont recall the issue but col.bret boyd the publisher will probably help you. always load these old ones very slowly up to black powder pressure. jon

[Bent Ramrod]

You're pretty much stuck with dealers in antique ammunition and the occasional gun show find. The freshest ammunition would be the "Canuck" brand from CIL, which was discontinued in the late '70's.

[Bret4207]

The 25 Stevens is one of those rounds that shouldn't have died. All these yahoos bring out 17's and 5mms at a gazillion feet per second and offering no real use. Now the 25, there's a small game cartridge! The nest closest thing is a down loaded 25/20 or a 22WRF and neither one is quite right. Too bad.

[C A Plater]

If you're going to find any recent manufactured it most likely would come from south of the border. Aquila used to make it and it is the parent case for the 5mm Remington but it has been quite a while since I'd heard of any being available. Bret is right it should never have died.

[excess650]

Unlike most rimfires that used heeled boolits, the .25 Stevens used an "inside lubricated" (conventional) boolit. The lube was ON the boolit inside the case.

I haven't looked for ammo, and I know what I have seen was $$.

The firing pin is situated such that a liner can be put in a barrel and extractor modified to shoot 22rf. OTOH, the 32rf is virtually worthless without modifying the block.

I HAD are Remington Rolllingblock #1 sporting rifle that had been rebored/rechambered from 22 to .25-10. That was Remington's designation of the .25 Stevens. Yes, it WAS the full sized, octagon topped, rebated sided sporting action.

[jon skorepa]

another rout could be using 25 rf pin shooting rounds i measured some real close to 25 rf but real short and i dont know the loads used be real careful

[Bent Ramrod]

I tried the .28 stud driver blanks with a .25 cal round ball and a little bit of lube. Accuracy was bad to worse. This was in a Stevens Buckhorn bolt action in .25 Stevens, not a Favorite or other light single shot. This does not constitute a recommendation to try this on my part. There are several power levels of these blanks, I understand. I may have been lucky.

I did make a die once to squish .22 Hornet bases down so that the shells could fit a .25 RF chamber after trimming and minor rim thinning. Switching Low Wall breechblocks from rim- to centerfire resulted in a reloadable .25 caliber using a sized down Ideal 257420. Case life was short, but longer than the rimfire, at least.

I do wish they'd revive the .25 Stevens, but I probably couldn't afford newly manufactured ammo, and they'd probably never sell enough to amortise the equipment. I just wish I had bought a couple cartons when they were available at the "outrageous" price of $4.75 for a box of 50!

[Bret4207]

I know where there's a gorgeous Stevens Marksman in 25RF. Tight as a drum and the barrel is perfect. I had a deal all worked with the store owners son, right up till Dad suddenly decided he wanted the gun.

[wills]

http://www.rtgammo.com/obsolamm.html

[Bret4207]

When I left the gun shop to go into the chainsaw biz I left 5 or 6 boxes of that Canuck 25 RF ammo, 20 boxes of CIL 222 Mag brass, 33 Winchester factory, 8mm Lebel, some 32 RF stuff, 41 Swiss, a whole great big mess of surplus '06 and 45ACP. All gone to the winds now thanks to my evil stepfather.

[SSGOldfart]

I have a nice clean original box of 50 sitting in front of me. 25 Stevens Rim Fire
They have a diamond shape head stamp. the bullet looks copper plated with a flat nose.
Western brand (yellow, blue, red card board box)
65 grain Lubaloy bullet non-corrosive priming - smokeless powder

If interested send me a PM.

PM :lol:inbound
thanks again another PM on the way.

[NoZombies]

If you're going to find any recent manufactured it most likely would come from south of the border. Aquila used to make it and it is the parent case for the 5mm Remington but it has been quite a while since I'd heard of any being available. Bret is right it should never have died.

As far as I know, the Mexicans and Brazilians have never made the .25 RF, at least not that was available here in the US.

The 5mm Remington wasn't based on the 25 RF case, so that's a no-go as well. I've heard that Remington did experiment with the .267 rimfire, which was indeed based on the .25 rf, but it was never produced in any quantity.

[Chev. William]

As far as I know, the Mexicans and Brazilians have never made the .25 RF, at least not that was available here in the US.

The 5mm Remington wasn't based on the 25 RF case, so that's a no-go as well. I've heard that Remington did experiment with the .267 rimfire, which was indeed based on the .25 rf, but it was never produced in any quantity.

A Grade 3 (Green tipped) .27 Caliber Powder Tool Load measures .268" body diameter and .326" rim diameter with approximately .050" rim thickness. The sample I have is head stamped with an "O" encircling an "H", which I believe indicates Olin/Winchester manufacture, and was from a 'RamSet' ten load plastic strip.

A Grade 3 (Green tipped) .25 Caliber Powder Tool Load measures .246" body diameter and .295" rim diameter with approximately .050" rim thickness. The Sample I have is head stamped with an "O" encircling an "H", which, as previously stated, I believe to indicate Olin/Winchester manufacture.

The Lee Carbide .25ACP resizing die in conjunction with an RCBS "Primer Pocket Swageing Tool" and a 3/16" 'Fender Washer' can be used to resize .22 Hornet all the way down to the Rim, this just leaves a 'roll' of displaced brass formed to fillet radius between the body and the rim that needs to be machined off. The rim diameter may need to be trimmed also for some chamber cuts. of course the case length will need to be trimmed to match the .25 Stevens length of 1.124", or 1.125" for measuring convenience. Bullets are the same size as .25ACP and the original was between 63gr and 68gr inside lubed. The original loads were stated as between 1000fps and 1100fps, just subsonic speed. There are reports that some later loadings were up around 1200fps. The 25 Stevens was considered target accurate out to about 200 yards with a 'high trajectory', and a much better 'Pot Meat' caliber than the .22 LR rounds.

Best regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

September 10, 2013 update on my Project Progress:
The Stevens Favorite actions and all my barrels are with the Gunsmith for Inspection and Fitting.

I have Ordered and received a total of 300 each .22 Hornet cases to use in forming Extended length .25ACP, and .25 Stevens cases (CF not RF). 100 ea were ordered as 'Remington' Empty Brass but when received, were found to be marked "Hornady .22 Hornet", the remaining 200 each are of the same manufacturer as my original experimental lot, PPU.

There are ordered, and paid for, 83 each additional .32LC Empty Brass cases to add to my current remaining 17 cases, which have been sized and trimmed to between .912" and .914 inch length.

[Chev. William]

Today I made some progress on the Development of alternatives for the .25 Stevens RF alternative cartridges.

I built up the first complete .25 Stevens RF replacement/substitute Rim Fire cartridge of this deisgn.

It is made up of a roughly 1 inch piece of 9/32 diameter .014 wall Brass Tubing drawn down to .275 outside diameter in a .25ACP Carbide sizing die, A .25 Caliber Grade 3, Green Tipped Powder Tool Load, and a 50gr FMJRN Magtech Bullet.
The .25 Cal Load's rim fits into a .25ACP shell holder.
The Tubing after drawing is slightly smaller than the Load body, and can be pressed over it by using a fender washer on top of the piece tubing under the sizing die in a reloading press. The tubing will stop on the shell holder, leaving a small space between the rim and the bottom of the tubing. the blank is retained by about the same force as a primer cup in a Center fire round.
then the top of the tubing is belled with an expander die, and finally the bullet is seated and the bell ironed out in a seater/crimper die.

This first 'prototype' was not 'glued' together, it is just held together by the grip of the tubing. I then took it to my Gunsmith Shop and we tried it in one of my .25 Stevens barrels, It did chamber and appears to have sufficient rim exposure to allow firing.

Nine more of the same design,but using lacquer between 'blank' and tubing wall as an additional securing method, are partially assembled tonight. I left them open to allow the 'glue' to dry thoroughly before adding the bullet.
Upon completion these will join the other one with my Gunsmith for test purposes.

Progress on the Center Fire alternative for the .25 Stevens:

Ten of the formed and machined .250ALS Cartridges were primed with CCI#450 (SRM), filled with 2.5gr of (Alliant) BULLSEYE, and topped with a 50gr FMJRN (Magtech) bullet. The assembled length is 1.415" to 1.410" for these. (Case Length is 1.125")
This load is calculated to develop approximately 10,700psi Maximum Average Pressure and should result in a Muzzle Velocity of about 1450fps out of a 21.75" barrel. The estimated Muzzle Exit Pressure is 865psi. these load will be taken to my Gunsmith for use in testing the rebuilt Stevens Favorite actions.The Other Design is the CF replacement for the .25 Stevens.

Why were these chosen to be used as test rounds, both the RF and the CF? They are a reasonable match for the action and existing chamber. They are estimated to be below the SAMMI/CIP pressure limits for the Caliber and Cartridge as far as I have been able to ascertain. these are not 'Proof loads' but are intended for live function testing of the completed firearm(s). When I obtain suitable Cast Lead Bullets I will assemble additional rounds for the gunsmith to use for testing the firearms.

I feel this is good news on this date.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday evening, I tried out finding how much fffg Black Powder (BP) my ".250ALS" CF substitute for the .25Stevens RF and determined that, at case length of 1.125", it will hold about 9.0 grains of the GOEX fffg BP loose and without any compression, with a little room to start the bullet into the case.

From reports, I believe the original .25 Stevens Long RF was charged with between 10 and 11 grains of BP and used an inside lubed 67 grain Lead bullet and were reported to get 1180fps. This would seem to indicate that my case could possibly hold 10 grains if compressed. That would be interesting to chronograph if i get some loaded with 65 to 67 grain bullets.

I do not know if it would be possible to get 11 grains into the CF case, compressed, as the base takes away possible volume that was available for powder in the RF case.

I did load 5 cases with the 9.0gr charge, and topped with a 50gr FMJRN Magtech bullet for future use when I get my rifle back from the Gunsmith.

On a sadder note: Hollywood Engineering suffered a fire this weekend, reported as a result of an electrical problem, and the 80 year old owner was burned, and transported to the Hospital for treatment. The LAFD report also stated that the Shop and his home were 'Red Tagged' and the three adults and two dogs were relocated for the time being. fire was reported about 6:30AM and reported out by 11:30AM. They make reloading presses and dies and load blanks, etc. for the movie industry.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bent Ramrod]

That's bad news about Hollywood Engineering. They used to exhibit and sell parts and dies at the Costa Mesa Gun Show. Seemed like a nice couple.

[Chev. William]

I'm thinking of doing a 'drive By check' tomorrow morning on my way to the VA Outpatient Center for a Dr. Appointment. If it happens, I will report my observations tomorrow evening.
Best Regards,
Chev William

I did a "Drive by Check" of the Hollywood Engineering shop and it looks 'not good'. The shop roof is gone, there is smoke staining starting about 8 feet up the wall of the Truck door and up from there. The door was not visible, just the opening.

With the roof gone, the machinery may or may not have been damaged by the Fire, smoke, or water used to suppress and extinguish the fire, which was reported by the LAFD Arson Investigation as of Electrical origin.

I did not see any smoke staining above where the personnel door is located so I do not believe there would be any or at least little fire or smoke damage to the house.

The rest of the things in the yard did not appear to have been involved.

I did not get out of my vehicle for these observations.

I will try to contact the family later in the month to find out how the owner is doing.

This does Not Look Good for their continued Business activity nor for their immediate income stream.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Back on the .25 Stevens items:
On a Whim, I loaded some of my remaining finished .250ALS cases with 9.0 grains of fffg Black Powder (BP) and 50gr bullets, 5 with FMJRN and 2 with Cast Lead "Ranch Dog" RFN sample bullets I received from "Carolina Cast Bullets" for trials. As this load is less BP than reported for original .25 Stevens RF loads, I believe that even with the lighter bullets (50gr versus 67gr) the Muzzle velocity will be slightly lower than the reported velocity of the RF cartridge. I do not think that this will be a problem, as the Smokeless Powder loads I have calculated indicate easy match to the RF performance and room for some higher velocity loadings within pressure limits. I also have learned that as the case length increases, the 'optimum' powder burn rate to achieve 'maximum Velocity at a given maximum pressure limit changes to a slower range.

I also loaded 10 .25ACP cases with 4.0 grains of fffg Black Powder (BP) and the 50gr Cast Lead "Ranch Dog" RFN bullets, with a final COAL of 0.850" for testing when I receive my Stevens Favorite rifles back from the Gunsmith.

The .25ACP load is 'plowing new ground' because as far as I know the .25ACP has never been commercially loaded with Black Powder as it was developed for the Colt Pocket Pistol after Smokeless Powders were introduced. I am hoping that the small cartridge will give similar or better performance to the .25 Stevens short RF cartridge BP loadings.
This 'tiny' case is also sensitive to slight differences in net case volume, both from manufacturer source variations and bullet seating depth variations so powders and charges need to be carefully selected and measured to get performance within the standard pressure limits of the cartridge. This is modified by the intended use in a rifle versus commercial loadings for use in a 2 to 2-1/2 inch barrel length Blow-back system semi-automatic pistol.

Best regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I went by Hollywood Engineering and found the owner and his wife there, along with a few Volunteers helping with clearing the collapsed roof and similar fire debris. The owner said he needed a few days in hospital then it took about two weeks to get a permit before they could get permission to enter and start clean up. He shows the evidence of burns on the left Forearm and Right hand (bandaged when I spoke to him). He is somewhat pessimistic as to the future fo the business as he is 80, and still does not know the full effects of the fire on his machinery and tooling. He did mention that the 'exploding ammunition' reported by the LAFD was 20mm rounds left over from work he did for the Government building reloading dies and presses to handle them for special experiments.

They are still not allowed to stay in their home on the property, I do not know when that might change.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Suo Gan]

The 25 Stevens is one of those rounds that shouldn't have died. All these yahoos bring out 17's and 5mms at a gazillion feet per second and offering no real use. Now the 25, there's a small game cartridge! The nest closest thing is a down loaded 25/20 or a 22WRF and neither one is quite right. Too bad.

Isnt this how it has been for them all? Excluding the 30-30 of course...sigh[smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1::-)[smilie=1:

[Chev. William]

Well, yes, it seems most cartridges were designed to sell firearms, not vise-versa. that indicates when sales lower, a new cartridge is introduced, along with a Firearm to use it.
J. Stevens did some innovation in inexpensive and relatively easily produced firearms and some very good cartridges that 'grated' on the other makers such as Colt, S&W, Winchester, etc.
Winchester would not use someone else's name on his rifles, so the 25 Stevens (Long) became the 25-10 and other maker' cartridges got new, Winchester generated alternate names. Colt also had a 'slight redesign and Rename' habit. As far as I know, all the manufacturers did the same.

Now i am working on .25 Stevens Long substitutes both in RF and CF versions, and with variations on the rim design to see what will work an be practical to build.

There is another similar project by many to resurrect the .32 Long RF / .32 Long Colt CF cartridge for use in rifles and pistols produced for them at the time. My own 1894 actions were also used with .32 Long RF cartridges and some have successfully converted them to CF and use the .32 Long Colt cartridge, but this is limited due to scarce Brass at the moment.

Please wish all of the experimenters Good Luck in their endeavors.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I went by Hollywood Engineering today and talked to the owner again. He is started on the Clean Up and says the City is saying they have two more weeks to compete the clean Up or they will start getting fined.
He did say that it seems he lost most of his existing inventory of parts and components and is still not down to the machine tools.
I am hoping that he finds the machine tools discolored (from smoke) but not otherwise damaged. I would like to see him recover his operation again and continue making Reloading Equipment as an income stream.
The Bandages are off and the burns seem to be heeling without complications.
Best regards,
Chev. William

[Bret4207]

My memory is dim on this, but IIRC there were people converting 25RF to CF and using reformed Hornet brass in custom dies of the same dimensions as 25RF. This was all a good 10 years back and I haven't seen anything much on it since.

[Chev. William]

My memory is dim on this, but IIRC there were people converting 25RF to CF and using reformed Hornet brass in custom dies of the same dimensions as 25RF. This was all a good 10 years back and I haven't seen anything much on it since.

Thank You for the memory that tells me I am possibly on the right track in reforming .22 Hornet cases to fit the .25 Stevens chamber. I am waiting for my Gunsmith to complete the strength upgrade and inspection of my two 1894 series Stevens Favorite actions. I have also asked to have tow of the four Breech Blocks converted to CF from the original RF configuration. I now have about 300 Hornet cases to reform while I am waiting for the actions. I also have a barrel in .32 Long that I am preparing to use with reformed brass in .32 Long Colt.

On another Note:
Saturday afternoon, I was with the owner at Hollywood Engineering and helped him to remove about a four by four foot area of fire marked Die inventory to be cleaned in my Vibratory Tumbler. There is an additional four by four foot area in this shelf section that holds more die inventory and the stock of expander tips and seating tips to match, this is only one of several shelving sections, about 30 feet long, holding more dies and components, tooling and tool bits, reamers, fixtures, etc. on this one wall. The rear shop has been stripped to the 'four walls' and is now being used to temporarily hold the machines he feels have the best possibility of refurbishment. the front shop has only been cleared about 40 percent of the machines that were there before the fire. most of the tooling and fixtures I observes have water damage after the fire heat removed the lubricants coatings. Drawers and trays held water and the time immersed rusted them so that they will need thorough de-rusting and cleaning to decide if they are usable again. The machines in the front shop show smoke staining and some drying of lubricants but so far no water damage nor fire damage. I guess the roof collapse and the Fire Department pouring on the Water from Snorkels saved them from heat damage.
The main Power panel is definitely in need of stripping and replacement as the power wiring is all charred or insulation missing. The main power meter is a rusted blob of corrosion. I did not open the Circuit breaker panels but suspect the Breakers are heat damaged, as almost all use molded plastics for the body.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Marvin S]

If you want ill check with a guy I know who has or had several boxes of 25 long RF. I don't really know how to get in touch with him other than next gun show. PM me if interested.

[Chev. William]

Marvin S,
Yes, I think I would be interested in one or two boxes for reference use, not for active shooting as they would probably be in the 'collectibles' range of prices rather than the 'shooting ammo' range from what I have seen on the internet. Also I believe most of the pre-WW2 ammo was made with primers and and powders that are considered 'corrosive' by modern standards. I would rather not subject the actions and barrels I have to the effects of corrosive ammunition as I have taken note of the existing damage and do not want to increase it. The most I am planning to do is shoot some Black Powder rounds through them then thoroughly clean them repeatedly over a couple of week s to assure all corrosive combustion products are removed before finally allowing them to be stored before the next shooting range run.

My general intent is to use none mercuric, none corrosive primers and low corrosion smokeless powders in my personal hand loads after the initial testing and documentation of performance of 'original loading equivalents' for my personal references.

I have been messaged by a gentleman that is taking the new Winchester .17 Rimfire Magnum rounds apart and reforming the cases to use as .25 Stevens RF rounds. I hope he will eventually share his experiences with the Forum in general as it sounds like and interesting process.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[rattletrap1970]

I have a question because I do see these old rimfire rifles every now and then. If you had the machining and/or designing ability (which I do), wouldn't one be able to chamber one of these guns for some reduces load rimed centerfire cartridge?

[soli]

I have 25 short and long if any one still needs them.

[Chev. William]

I have a question because I do see these old rimfire rifles every now and then. If you had the machining and/or designing ability (which I do), wouldn't one be able to chamber one of these guns for some reduces load rimed centerfire cartridge?

Yes, there is a possibility of modifing the firearms (both handguns and Rifles) but most people would like to have them keep their collector value and still be able to occasionally shoot them. In my case, I have two Stevens Favorite actions of the 1894 Series that I am having a gunsmith go through and upgrade the pins and Screws that are vital to the action and also having two spare breech Blocks reworked from RF to CF capability. I am reforming .22 Hornet brass to fit the .25 Stevens chamber in one and reforming .32 S&W Long Brass to fit the .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt chamber in the other. in both these cases the original condition did not argue for 'Collector' Values so they will be 'shooters' in the new configurations but I will retain the RF Breech Blocks and some spare extractors to allow returning them to original configuration if deemed advantageous at some time in the future.

As a side benefit, the .25 Stevens chamber is of suitable dimensions to be able to use commercial .25ACP ammo like the original RF used the .25 Stevens Short, but the .25ACP will offer performance similar to the .25 Stevens Long Rf cartridge.

As to changing the chamber to a 'modern' cartridge, in my case the actions do not lend themselves to much stronger modern cartridges, they are not the strongest of designs nor the strongest of materials, but then again, they are strong enough for their original cartridges.
An example: the .32 Long chamber could, and has been, enlarged to fit the .32 S&W Long cartridge but that would be straining the action and a full power commercial load might cause stratigraphic damage or failure. Not a good thing to contemplate. So I will leave it at .32 Long Colt and handload to feed it rounds that are comparable to the .32 Long RF.

I hope this answers your questions to your satisfaction.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I have 25 short and long if any one still needs them.

Are they single rounds or boxes of rounds?
What manufacturer(s) and what loading(s)?

Best regards,
Chev. William

[rondog]

I have a single .25 Stevens Short round that I found in a parking lot many, many years ago. When I found it, it was in brand new condition but I had no idea what it was. Mystified me because it was such a big rimfire, never seen one. Took me 30+ years to find out! Still have it too.

[rattletrap1970]

Oh I don't mean making a powerhouse out of them (which you can't), I just don't keep up with all th old cowboy calibers. I have had a chance at getting one of these old rifles every now and again and would have liked to rechamber to something just to have fun with the gun.

[Chev. William]

Oh I don't mean making a powerhouse out of them (which you can't), I just don't keep up with all th old cowboy calibers. I have had a chance at getting one of these old rifles every now and again and would have liked to rechamber to something just to have fun with the gun.

There are numerous auctions on Gun Broker for Stevens Favorites and a few for Stevens Model 44 or 44-1/2 that you can look through. most are more of a collector type but there are some that are 'shooter' rather than collector types. A pitted bore in a 'shooter' may not affect its accuracy much but there does need to be some rifling left to spin the bullet. Stevens Favorites are and were offered in 22LR, 25 Stevens, or 32 Long RF. The 22LR and 32 Long are relatively easy as 22LR is still made and the 32 Long shares dimensions with the 32 Long Colt original outside lubed rounds. 25 Stevens is doable by reforming .22 Hornet cases and trimming them to the length of the 25 Stevens case. In the two larger calibers you would need to convert from RF to CF so they would take some machine or gunsmith work.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[rondog]

An old friend of mine back in OK has an 1892 Marlin levergun chambered in .32 Short RF. His brother bought an old Chevy from a farmer when we were teenagers, and the rifle was in the trunk under some gunny sacks.

The firing pin is easily removed from the bolt, so we had a CF pin made by a gunsmith. Shot it a few times, it was surprisingly accurate, I'm sure he hasn't fired it since. We also refinished the stock <shame>, but hey, we were 15 then.

[Chev. William]

An old friend of mine back in OK has an 1892 Marlin levergun chambered in .32 Short RF. His brother bought an old Chevy from a farmer when we were teenagers, and the rifle was in the trunk under some gunny sacks.

The firing pin is easily removed from the bolt, so we had a CF pin made by a gunsmith. Shot it a few times, it was surprisingly accurate, I'm sure he hasn't fired it since. We also refinished the stock <shame>, but hey, we were 15 then.

There are many posts of people using the 1892 Marlin, with it's convertible nature, to good advantage either hunting or shooting targets with the CF cartridges nowadays. I suggest you see if it is still available for use.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but the new winchester 17 'super mag' looks like it might be based on a case that is similar to the original .25 stevens. Case dimension just ahead of the rim is .267, so I imagine up cut off at the shoulder (carefully) with the proper dies, you could probably replace the powder and seat a .252 bullet and make the old Steven's .25's sing again.

[Chev. William]

A man is doing just that, getting cases that are about .98" long and then loading either 50gr or 35gr jacketed bullets for trials. I hope He will choose to share his process and results with the group at some point.

Best regards,
Chev. William

[KCSO]

If you reline a 25 to 22 you have to either cut a new friing pin a little off center or recess the extractor where the 25 pin hits. I just did one yesterday.

[Chev. William]

I agree, I have seen photos of 'used' extractors that even have a long groove leading down the firing pin side of the extractor, my guess is to clear other firing pin tips from some old repairs.
The .32 Long RF conversion to CF requires a 'plug and re-bore' activity to position the firing Pin Tip where it needs to be. I suspect some of these were done by making the firing pin tip a long rectangle rather than a round pin.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

There have been reports by several people who have made adapter cases for .25 Stevens RF using .22 Blanks for 'primers'. The original RF firing pin has been used ('Wedge' end or 'round' end both) with the adapter's 'primer centered, it still is hit by the firing pin tip. The adapter 'rim' usually needs to have enough 'relief' to allow for the firing pin hit to crush the blank rim to around .030" thick from the .045" or so original thickness. IF these adapters are to be loaded as normally done, the 'relief' should be on only a portion of the adapter rim, with the remainder left thick enough to protect the Rim Fire 'primer' in the shell holder. An inadvertent ignition from bullet seating or crimping forces would not be good for your day.
Many are using reformed .22 Hornet cases as adapters (drilling out for the .22 Blank)while some are machining adapter cases from brass rod stock.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Back on forming .22 hornet cases for use as basis for .25 Stevens/.250ALRx Basic cases.
Currently have 200expanded, and resized, 50 to be expanded, and of the Resized ones 100 have been trimmed to 1.125" long for use either as .25 Stevens or .250ALS cases after turning the displaced Brass roll off in front of the Rim.
I have ordered Lee Case Trimmer gauges with 1.050" and 1.250" lengths for trimming .250ALR and .250ALRM cases.
I have received my .22LR "Freeland" Chamber reamer from Midway Supply so now I have the tool to ream Adapters for .22 Blanks.
and I have on order 4 packages of Grade one PTL Blank loads for my Experiments.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Reg]

Chev,
Whats the latest on Hollywood Engineering ?

[Chev. William]

As far as I know, they are still trying to figure out whether to rebuild the Shop or to sell off the Property.
I have completed running the dies and parts Joe asked me to clean through my Vibratory Tumblers (using up two and now running on the third).
Joe has some parts and pieces for the Presses and some of the Dies may be suitable for sale.
Joe is strongly against taking out a mortgage form past experiences with Banks, from what he has told me.
For the time being they are living on his wife's wages, I believe.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I received an order of Grade 1(one) Grey PTL Blanks in .22 Caliber 'short' cases with a Star Crimp.
These will be used for experiments adn testing .25 Stevens Adapters and .32 Long adapters with Lead bullets.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[slumlord44]

I just got 100 .258 50 grain soft cast bullets from Carolina Cast Bullets made for the .25 ACP. $21.15 delivered. One box of .27 Ramset # power loads for $9 per 100 from Home Depot. Lubed the bullets with Bore butter from my muzzle loader and pushed the bullet in until it hit the riffling with a wooden dowel. Fired 2, 5 round groups at 25 yards to see how it would work. A little gas escaped and one case seemed to rupture. The extractor would pull the case out to the limit of the extractor travel but had to tap it out the rest of the way with a cleaning rod. Rifle is Stevens 44 with double set triggers and Stevens windage tang sight and flip up front sight. Accuracy seems to be pretty close to the Canuck factory ammo. Need to dig out the chronograph and see where velocity is. Point of impact was lower than the factory ammo by a half inch or so at 25 yards. A little slow and cumbersome but it seems to work. Still looking for a source for 70 grain lead bullets.
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[Chev. William]

Good Report and Nice Rifle.
A half inch low compared to factory ammo at 25 yards seems to indicate slightly less velocity in spite of the lighter bullet (50 grain s versus 56-70 Grains).
Perhaps a trial with the .27 Caliber Grade 4 PTL blanks would be useful in your rifle.
With the 60 Grain bullets taht might rais e the velocity enough to hit the same area as the Factory loads.
Also please remember you are shooting a "short" cartridge in a "long" chamber as the .25 Stevens is nominally a 1.124" long case.
Best Regards,
Chev. Wiliam

[slumlord44]

I want to chronograph it and see how fast they are going before trying different power loads. Still looking for a source for 70 grain bullets. Heavier ones are available but so far no 70 grains. The 50's are only available from the one source. The gap between the power load and the bullet does not seem to be an issues. Breach loading target shooters have been doing this for over 100 years. The gap was not as large though. The slight undersize of the .27 round concerns me but does not seem to be a serious problem yet. I will continue to play with this one as time allows and would appreciate it if anyone has a source for 70 grain bullets. I really don't want to buy a custom mold and get in to casting my own bullets yet.

[Chev. William]

Would you consider Buying a Custom mold and providing it to a Commercial Bullet casting operation? I did it with my 311090A Accurate Mold which I provided to "Matt's Bullets" along with permission for him to use it to sell the bullets to others interested in the .32 Long or Short Colt and the similar RF Cartridges. There are several people working with the old RF cartridges, using CF cases modified to take PTL or other Blanks. the latest one is Ndnchf with his Remington rolling ?block in .32 Extra Long RF. W30wcf has also been working with the .32 Long RF and has had good success.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[too many things]

i know its old post but I played with a steavens favorite . You can take a used 25 rim fire case. cut the head off just to where the 27cal ramset/hilit power load will fit just snug.
the 25 cal bullet dont seen to work as well as a number 3 buck __{sharpshooters mold} and drop of bee wax keeps the ball on top of the power load. and it does good enough at 25 yds to kill a bird or a ground tree rat
he will make the no 3 for you . if bore is bad slug it and give hime the size and he will do that too
one thing I did find
you need to keep bullet/ball on top of power load for it to work

[John Boy]

Might want to chamber ream the 25 Stevens RF with a 25 Hornet reamer:
25 Hornet Measurements:
Case Length - 1.38
Head Dia - .299
Rim Dia - .350
Neck Dia - .273
Rim Thickness - .065

Then modify the rimfire firing pin to be longer and insure you have a strong main spring.

Down load the reloads with 3gr Unique or 11gr FFg powder and go have fun

[slumlord44]

Chev William, I have talked to the guy at Western Bullets and he suggested that I do this. Not sure if I want to spend $80 + for a mold to do this or not. If I could convince him that there were enough demand I could be possible to convince him to buy it? If someone here has a mold and would be willing to loan it to Western he would cast the bullets. Anyone have a mold?

[Chev. William]

Slumlord 44,
$80 for a mold sounds like a Single or Dual cavity one, not necessarily a multiple cavity one suitable for production use.
The one I Bought and sent to "Matt's Bullets" was a 5 cavity one so he could get useful commercial production rates out of it.

As to Getting Western Bullets interested in footing the bill for the mold, we must acknowledge that 'Western Bullets" is a Business and as such Must conserve it's Capitol for investments in product that will return profit on the investment. A .250" bullet of 65 to 69 grains unless designed with deep lube grooves to allow as cast diameters o f.258" to .260" to be sized down to at least .250" without erasing the lube grooves, would possibly fit that billing as it would also be salable as a .257" for the various .25 Rifle cartridges still in existence, a much larger sales base.

You might price a 5 or 6 cavity custom mold for two different designs: one to cast a .255" diameter bullet fo 67 grains nominal; and another to cast a .260" diameter bullet of the same weight with deep Lube grooves as noted. An offer to foot part of the cost of the Custom mold with
"Western Bullets" might be more favorably received.
At the moment, I am not in position to either offer to share costs nor to commission another custom mold like I did, I have had no Work since the End of 2013 so do not have the "Discretionary Spending funds" to use for such a project.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[slumlord44]

Found a Lyman Dual cavity 257420 65 grain mold for $72-$73 shipped. Thinking seriously about biting the bullet so to speak and buying it and casting my own. Been thinking about starting to do some casting. That's how I ended up on this website. Should I go for it?

[Chev. William]

If it is within your "Discretionary Funds Spending Range" I would say 'go for it'.

You could always consider having Western Bullets do he Casting if you decide later you don't want the added headaches.

Also, I opened five of the Grade one (Gray) PTL blanks and weighed the powder charges as a group then divided and the average charge came out to 1.31 grains of a medium gray semigloss flake powder of wide variation in flake size from 'fine' down to 'tiny little bits' that looked almost cubical.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[slumlord44]

The Lyman 257420 is a gas check bullet. Do I have to use a gas check? How would this bullet work with black powder if I decided to use it in something like a .25-20 Single shot? Would I be able to use it without a gas check or would I need the gas check?

[WILCO]

The Lyman 257420 is a gas check bullet. Do I have to use a gas check?

Stickies man, gotta read the stickies.

Check this out: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?65035-Can-I-shoot-a-gas-check-design-with-out-the-gas-check

[Chev. William]

Update on Hollywood Engineering:
Received a call from Joe Mueller of Hollywood Engineering asking me if I knew anyone looking to buy some of his machines and / or tooling. He has several Warner & Swasey (sp?) Production type Engine lathes, a few 'Bridgeport type' mills and other machine tools for sale as his wife and daughter have voted to liquidate the business and property and buy a house with the proceeds.
Joe stated he is asking about $1000 for each machine and the buyer would be responsible for Transporting them.
Looks like an end to this manufacturer of heavy duty reloading presses and dies started with the shop fire last year.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Hollywood engineering will be selling the remaining Machine tools to a salvage outfit Friday this week so if you want anything give them a call tomorrow.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Today I proposed a 'Wildcat' cartridge to Ammoguide Interactive for inclusion in their cartridge data base. it is a .25 Stevens 'Intermediate" in both RF and CF types with a case length of .750" and other dimensions simialar to the other .25 Stevens RF rounds except the rim maximum proposed is .350" to allow easy use of .22 Hornet parent cases to be reformed and trimmed to work.

The proposed length is about half way between the Short, at .515", and the Long, at 1.125", and would take around 6.5 to 7.0 grains fo black powder.
Bullets would be 50 grains to 67 grains and .251" or so diameter.

I am hoping AG accepts the submission.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 2014JUN27: still no results on the proposal I made to "Ammoguide Interactive".
Oh Well.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
Added 2014JUL18: still no Response.
Chev. William

Added 20140812: still no Response.
Chev. William

[SSGOldfart]

Keep after it maybe someday you'll get it done

[Chev. William]

For those Interested: There is an 1885 Winchester low wall Half Round/half Octagon barrel that is marked "Rebore'd & Rifl'd by J. Stevens A. & T. Co" on Ebay (auction number 380925366299) with ten hours remaining. the current bids are at $199 so it seems it will sell.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

The auction closed. The Barrel went for $199.99 plus packaging and Shipping Fee.
Sounded like a Very Nice .25 Stevens RF Barrel reportely with a Very Clean and Shiny Bore.
Seller was "drwinchester" the winner is only id'd as 'a...u'.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Spent a Warm Father's Day Sunday afternoon neck expanding and Down sizing a batch of 100 used .22 Hornet Brass to make parent cases fo rmy .25 Stevens Experiments. one case neck split while expanding so it wil get shortened to remove the split area. The 99 sized ones are being tumbled in Walnut Shell medium to remove the tarnish from years of storage dirty in the original Remington Peters boxes and expanded styrene carriers. It looks like the second .25ACP Carbide has only set back about .010" so far. Much Talk on TV News of Iraq and ISIS, but no enlightenment found. The over 4000 American Serviceman's Lives Lost seem to have been Squandered by This Current Administration in it's rush to 'get out' of the War. Now What will be done about the Rising Al. Q "Extreme Radical" offshoot ISIS?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

ADDED 2014JUN27: I have continued with the conversion of .22 Hornet brass to parent cases for .25 Stevens diameter cases. Eariler I picked up a used RCBS "RC" press fo r$30 and after removing 'crud' and corrosion from the ram, and oiling it and all pivot points, put it into use in the case forming processes. It turns out that this "RC" press has enough power to form Hornet brass to .25 Stevens sizes, including 'coining' the rim to correct thickness, in one press cycle if I use both arms and my full upper body force on the handle. Much faster than my previous "JR-3" press that required multiple cycles and incremental adjusting of the sizing die to do the same diameter forming but NOT the rim coining.

Also bought a "#8 Cap Screw Combination Drill and Counterbore" that cuts a .290" diameter rebate, for a .22 Blank rim, in trial adapter case. It's pilot drill leaves a roughly .176" diameter pilot hole that needs to be opened out to fit the .22 blank body diameter. it is "McMaster-Carr part number 29445A13" and is reasonable in cost, even with the shipping.

The .290" rebate diameter leaves a small 'rim' even in a Case with a rim OD of .346" and if cut to only .040" deep in a case rim of .050" will leave sufficient case rim for head space and extraction. This is for a Blank Adapter case for a .25 Stevens RF Rifle. In one intended for .32 Long RF , the rebate is smaller in diameter than the case body so would be even stronger overall. There is still the need to 'thin' the case rim to clear the tip of the firing pin tip to allow consistent crush of the RF Blanks primer rim, an allowance of about .010" or .012" for 'crush' seems to be sufficient.

I did buy a Reamer supposedly to cut a "match grade .22LR Freeland" Chamber but a trial in a steel 'slug' ended up .230" diameter instead of catalog .224", so a test .22LR cartridge 'rattled' in it. I sent the reamer back to the manufacturer the end of May for Warrantee 'insppection, repair, or replacement', but no results so far.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Further testing of "RC" press in reforming Hornet Brass to parent .25 Stevens Basic brass.
I tried 5 never fired PPU cases that previously has been sized to body diameter. The "RC" coined the rims down to .050" just like the used R-P brass I originally tried.

I Still have had no reply on the ".22LR Freeland" reamer I sent in to the manufacturer.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20140812: I did receive the reamer back and it now cuts good tight .22RF chambers in the Brass I have tried it in to date.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Revised 20140706: The .22RF Freeland reamer arrived back from the Manufacturer, PTG, the Week of 1st July but I have not tried it out yet, I do not have another 'dummy chamber slug' to run a .22LR Match Grade Chamber into at the moment.

I now have 50 never fired PPU reformed Hornet cases downsized, coined, trimmed and turned to .25 Stevens Replacement case dimensions, except i left the rims somewhat bigger in diameter, to better fit the Original Stevens Barrel Rim Rebates that I have in hand, which all seem to measure rim diameters of .348" to .350" so my rims are trimmed to .344" to .346". So far all 50 are CF versions but I may convert some to "RF Adapter cases" to verify my tooling for that process. These will be 'Centered' adapter rather than 'offset' adapter design.

There are an additional 50 of the new PPU cases tha tare waiting fo rrim diameter trimming so I still hav esome work on these yet ot go, in addition to some .327FM and .25-20ss basic and .32S&W Long cases to be sized to .32 RF diameters. and trimmed to various lengths for m "Extra Short" to "Extra Long" and several lengths in between.

My Gunsmith is back at work again after his first Hip replacement surgery and there is soem progress on one of my 1894 Action 'upgrades' but it is still a ways from shooting condition as he still needs to make one more pivot screw and them try out the two used stocks I left him to see if either is near correct fit. Then after Test firing, i twil get fine bead blasting and a finish applied as this one was too pitted to be a polished finish and still retain Receiver strength for shooting.

We did trial fit of a .25 Stevens barrel and one of my replacement PPU homemade cases in this action and it seems to close and lock up properly so I may be lucky in the 'head space' area. The Case slipped into the chamber and 'dropped out easily to boot, a fine test so far.

The second 1894 Action in his hands has a much better condition exterior an dwill be left with the original remaining finish in place., which is why he is doing the 'fitting of pivot replacements in the one he is, to preserve the remaining finish on the 'good one'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I spent the last few days preparing parent cases For the .25 Stevens Family of cartridges.
These latest ones are made with my Current Set of tooling and I have modified some of them to be Rimfire adapters using my new Cutters/Tooling.

1. Started out with used R-P .22 Hornet Brass, Expanded the necks and shoulders to .250" inside diameter, then used my "RC" press, the .25ACP Carbide sizing die, and the 'RCBS Primer Pocket Swaging Tool Kit', with an added Fender Washer, to form the cases Full length, including 'coining' the rims down, to .25 Stevens Case diameters and rim thickness.

2. Trimmed a group of the parent cases to .25 Stevens Length (1.125" roughly), and using a Battery Drill Motor and a Fine Single Cut Mill File, finished the Rims to thickness and diameter (.346" to .348" diameter by .060" thick) to fit my Stevens Barrels chambered for the .25 Stevens Rf cartridge.

3. I then Set up my "#8 Cap screw combination Drill and Counterbore in my Drill Press over a Machinist Vise C-Clamped to the Press table positioned so a Case clamped in the Vise "V" would be centered under the Chuck and its Tool. The Drill/Counterbore needs slow feed as it is sharpened for Steel, not Brass, cutting. The Drill Press depth stop was used to limit counterbore depth to less than the rim thickness (depth of counterbore cut was set to about .040", leaving about .010" rim metal thicknes).

4. The same setup was used with a #2 Drill to open the case hole from about .179" to about .219".

5. The Same setup was used with a "Match Grade .22LR Freeland" Chamber reamer to open the through hole in the case head to fit 'Tightly' a .22 Blank.

6. Using a separate, smaller, Machinist Vise on my Loading Bench and the same Mill file, I cut a Firing pin Clearance slot in one side of the nearly finished adapter case rim.

7. I then deburred and smoothed the the 'finished' Adapter Case base and rim before primer/load was inserted.

8. Inserted a .22 Caliber Grade 1 Power Tool Load Blank and use dmy loading press to push it home in the Adapter, using a Dummy Chamber and the Stripper cup from the Swage Kit WITHOUT the Swage Punch.

9. Polished the finished loaded Adapter using the Battery Drill motor and a Green Scotchbrite pad.

These 'loaded' Blank adapter cases have the existing Grade 1 PTL powder loading of 1.31 Grains of flake, fast burning, powder and I intend to use them to verify I have enough Firing pin clearance to set them off in a Stevens Favorite Rifle fitted with a '22LR' Breech Block and a .25 Stevens Chambered Barrel.

Later, after reloading and reassembling the Stevens Favorite with a .25 Stevens RF Breech Block and the same .25 Stevens barrel, I will check the firing pin will fire the Blank, as my measurements appear to allow.

This series of tests will verify I can fire my Stevens Favorite with either a "CF" Breech Block, a ".22RF" Breech Block, or a ".25RF" Breech Block assembled in to my action.

Another project in the works is to reform some .327 FM Brass to .32 Extra Long Dimensions and also cut some of them for .22RF Blanks as Adapter cases. I received some Starline made .327FM new Empty Brass to use in the conversions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Spent Yesterday and this morning working to get my "PhotoBucket" account back and running again, in the process apparently lost the previously used links to the posted photos.

But I did get a new photo of my .25 Stevens RF/CF case forming project uploaded and titled so here is the link:
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/25%20Stevens%20Family%20Cartridges%20Development/2014040713_Pictures003crop_zps1bbce0aa.jpg
This photo is a cropped detail of a larger image and shows: a fired .22PTL Blank (fired in one of the Adapter Cases I made); side and bottom views of the completed .25 Stevens CF case; bottom view of pilot drilled and counterbored RF case; bottom view of #2 Wire Size Drilled RF Case; Bottom view of Match Grade .22LR 'Freeland' chamber reamed RF Adapter Case; Side and bottom view of Adapter case with PTL blank inserted; side views of, in order .22 Caliber, Grade 1 (Gray) PTL, Grade 2 (Brown) PTL, Grade 3 (Green) PTL, and Grade 4 (Yellow) PTL Unfired Blanks.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Over the last four evenings I have worked on Forming .327 Federal Magnum Brass down to .32 Extra Long diameters using my RCBS "RC" press and a two stage sizing process. In the first stage they are reduced to .329" diameter using a Lee push Through Sizing Die, this resulted in two of 50 cases being Buckled durign the sizing operation. I believe this is the result of my 'pausing' in the middle fo the process when the sizing force needed required I stand up and apply almost my full body weight via a two Straight armed grip, to the end of the operating handle. Once I realized the neede dforce was so much higher than sizing Hornets into .25 Stevens cases, i completed the group with no more 'lost' cases.
The Second stage fo the Sizing operation takes the case to .318" diameter using a .32 Long Colt Carbide sizing die, again requiring two straight armed Standing body force on the handle end.
so far I have final sized twenty cases and Trimmed the displaced Brass 'Roll' off ten of them.

I have queried RCBS about purchasing a handle for their "Ammomaster 2" press which looks about 6" longer than the "RC" press handle.

It looks like I will also need to reinforce the Table Top also, to withstand the added forces.
Perhaps adding a section of 2"x 6" about 24" long under where the press is located, glued and Screwed to the bottom of the Laminated, 1" thick, Marine Plywood Top of my home built 2' x 8' portable folding table.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday Afternoon's mail delivery brought my new, longer, handle and after supper, I installed it on my "RC" press. This "Ammomaster 2" handle is the same diameters as the original "RC" handle but both 4" longer and changes the grip from a Cylinder along the shaft to a Ball End, concentrating the applied force a the end of the handle lever. This makes reforming cases easer due to the lowered force required.
After fitting the handle, I processed 25 each .327 Federal Magnum cases to downsize them to the diameters fo .32 Extra Long/.32 Long Colt cases compared to about 10 cases I found comfortable forming in one sessin with the old handle.
I am sure the forming forces for downsizing .22 Hornet cases to .25 Stevens Diameters will be similarly reduced so more can be done in a given session.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Tuesday, July 29th, is a Good Day. My Gunsmith completed fitting the first 1894 Stevens favorite action with upgraded Strength screws and a new Extractor and firing pin. it fired some .25 Caliber PTL loads but required 'double strikes' (fire, cock, and refire to discharge blank) measuring the resultant firing pin strikes, it appears the blank is being moved in the adapter/chamber with the first strike and then is solid for the second strike.

I brought the action and the barrel home ($150.00 labor charge) and did some checking and measuring of the chamber. It appears that the Rim rebate is Conical from wear and corrosion from around a Century of use. A .27 Caliber PTL sits in it about .009" to .011" below the barrel breech face and a .25 Caliber PTL Blank sits about .026" to .028" below the breech face plane.

Since the test rounds he used were made up of brass tubes cut to length and a .25 PTL blank pushed into the end using a .25ACP shell holder and a blocking washer to seat it with a small space between top of rim and brass tube end to allow for the Extractor; Now I know why the 'double Strike" is needed.

I will be taking the barrel back to the Gunsmith tomorrow, along with some of my tooling, some .27 Cal PTL Blanks, some .25 PTL Blanks, and one box of Western .25 Stevens (Long) RF cartridges so he can see how the originals fit these chambers. I will also take a second .25 Stevens barrel that I have already "Squared Up" the rim rebate using a cutter in a portable drill motor (done carefully and slowly with frequent stops to check progress). the 'Squared Up" barrel now has about a .060" deep rebate and a mostly 'square corner between chamber bore to rebate bottom and rebate bottom to rebate side wall. I will let the Gunsmith put a correct radius on the Chamber to Rebate corner.

There is still a difference in seating depth between the .25 and .27 blanks.

This I will discuss with the Gunsmith, along with the 'head space' correction(s) needed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday, August 2nd, I took two more used 1894 Breech blocks and a Lever-link set to the Gunsmith to give him more choices on which ones to rework to make a CF Breech Block Set.

I also took him some more Assembled Test Cartridges, these are 'second generation' versions of the "Brass Tube" design/style construction utilizing Grade 3 PTL Blanks for Brimer/propellant and with either 63 Grain or 51 grain bullets seated in them.

Later I stopped at a Hobby Shop and bought 5ea 3ft lengths of "9/32"x.014" Wall Brass Tubing and have already cut one up for 31 Blanks to make more cartridges out of. there is enough of the first tube left to make a couple more blanks with a different set up to cut them. I used a lathe with a sharp 60 degree carbide insert bit set so one side was cutting a square end and the other was leving a champfered end on the cut piece. With a Live center used as a Feed Stop for the tube stock through a 6 jaw chuck the cuts went fairly quickly.

The blanks come out much more uniform this way. The previous blanks were cut by hand using a rotary tubing cutter and came out at various lengths, I used the best group to make the Test Cartridges and the rest will be 'salvaged' fo rvariousl sub length cartridges down to what ever minimum length allows the PTL Bland and the Bullet to both be seated in the tubing at the same time, Probably around .520" to .600" 'case length.

Case Lengths (with PTL Blank seated) I wish to test in the Future include: .500"; .625"; .750"; .875"; .1.000"; and of course 1.125" after I get the chamber in one of my barrels properly reamed to make up for the rebate depth after re-cut to square its bottom.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Noticed that ONE of my .25 Stevens RF Barrels, one in which the bore is very pitted, has a chamber that will accept a 9/32" (about .283" outer diameter) Brass tube in the Chamber area. This is quite 'worn' or corroded as mostly they balk at .278"-279" diameters more than 1/2" long. Obviously the original chambers have over 100 years of use/corrosion to erode them to larger diameters.

Now I need to decide it I should save up and have this one barrel relined or try to use it as is.

Decisions, decisions, decisions, to be made in the future.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[bobby65]

This is a very good thread I will keep up with it. thanks for all the info.

[Chev. William]

DRAT! The 'tool' I had been using to force brass tubing through my .25ACP Carbide sizing die failed.
So now I need to come up with a 'better tool'; one possible solution is in the works. I received a pair fo Lee 'Lube and Size Kit' replacement .284" push punches that I will need to reduce in diameter to fit the Carbide Sizing die.
Now to work out the way to accurately reduce them to the needed diameter.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I received my two Lee push punches and have made a holding 'split collar' holding tool to allow turning the punch pin down to fit through my Carbide ring sizing die.

The first punch came out loose in the Carbide ring.

I tried it out with 30 pieces fo cut Brass tubing and 29 out of the 30 came out as desired.
The 30th one got 'stuck' and required MUCH more force to complete its pass through the sizing die. It ended up with an extruded 'skirt' with a .004" wall thickness.

This first punch is useable for my purposes in making replacements for .25 Stevens RF cases.

Eventually I will cut the second punch to fit closer in the Carbide sizing die ring.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday morning I sized 129 pieces of tubing to make parents for my 'Second Generation' .25 RF blank adapters for .25 Stevens substitute cartridges. Out of 129, 12 Extruded Skirts around the punch end. 12 out of 129 is acceptable yield but not a Good yield.
It looks like I an goin gto need to machine the second punch to a closer fit to my sizing Carbide ring die.
Now come the tedious task fo trimming them to length.
Best Regards.
Cehv. William

[Chev. William]

I completed Trimming some of the Tubing (9/32" x .014" Wall sized down to .274" OD in a .25ACP sizing die) to length and assembled a pair of 'test' cartridges using a Grade 4 .25 Caliber PTL blank and a 63 grain .258" diameter RFN Lead Bullet.
I pressed the Blank in one end of a trimmed tube and, after belling the other end, seated the bullet using a .25ACP seat/crimp die.
I did run the case in far enough to crimp the case tube to the bullet just at the 'crimp groove' in the bullet.

Wednesday I took the test cartridges to my Gunsmith's shop and we temporarily assembled my strengthened pivots 1894 Stevens Action to a 'way to much head space old Stevens '.25 Stevens' Barrel. It ended up with about .080" head space form breech face to cartridge end when seated in the barrel.

This is a deliberate test to see if the tubing is suitable for continued use as a cartridge case.

The Cartridge was fired successfully.
The Blank moved back in the tube as both moved back in the chamber toward the Breech face.
The 'unsupported' blank body just forward of the original rim 'ballooned' out to form a second 'rim'.
The original Rim 'Ballooned out until it formed a "T" shaped vent hole in the upper section.
The Bullet exited the barrel.
The Fired tube case showed expansion to fit the Chamber, growing from a .274" OD before firing to a .282" OD after firing.
The Blank end had a slight 'Bell' to it.
The Bullet end still had the Crimp in it, so the bullet left with a reduced diameter 'heel' I presume.
In spite of the Venting, my gunsmith reported a 'loud muzzle blast' or 'report' so the venting was near the end of bullet travel within the barrel.
It appears the edges of the tear 'vent' were rolled away rather than bit being torn off.
No detectable damage was found in the 1894 Stevens Action, the Breech Block face is still perpendicular to the Barrel center line and at the same distance from breech face to Rear face of Receiver Barrel Socket, pivots are still straight and linkage is tight.

Conclusions:
The Tubing is adequate for use as an Adapter Case between .25 Cal PTL Blanks (of nominal .248" OD) to .25 Stevens rifle chambers ( the original cartridge was .276" diameter and the worn chambers about .283" to 284" diameter).
The tubing either should not be crimped to the bullet OR the tubing 'neck should be reamed to reduce the .014" wall to something around .008" to .009" thickness.
The Blank's wall failed rather than the tubing wall, and at that only after being greatly distorted due to the excess head space of the experiment.
Normal Head space provisions would most likely not have caused the blank rim to fail as it did in this experiment, since the Blank moved to the rear far enough so that the original rim was completely outside the design chamber rim rebate.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/2014040828_Pictures007_zpsd8077dea.jpg

Photo of the Rim Fire Development designs to date.
Blue is Grade 2 (replaces Brown as color code)
Green is Grade 3
Yellow is Grade 4
Red is Grade 5
The charged cases with no 'space' between case and rim are 'Series 1'.
The charged cases with a small gap between case Body and rim are 'Series 2'.

[Chev. William]

Reading through a copy of "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" by John J., and Judty Donnelly, published in 2011; I ran across, on page 147, a writeup and dimensioned drawing of a "25-10 Halsted".
This is a sized down Center Fire .22 Hornet case to be used in rifles originally chambered for the ".25 Stevens RF" cartridge.
This is parallel to my experiments with sizing .22 Hornet cases to make replacements in to both RF and CF versions for the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge.

It is noce to know others have been down the same path in getting these "Obsolete" and Orphaned caliber Cartridges and Rifles into shooting again.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

This Afternoon, Wednesday August 27th, I got a call form my gunsmith to come and pick up the Strengthened 1894 Stevens Favorite Action and two Stevens ".25 Stevens Long RF" barrels that he had ready for my Range testing. So i went in, paid $75.00 for the work, took the Action and two barrels home, fitted a Stock to the action. packed up the now complete rifle action and barrels with some of my 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim fire cartridges, and off to the 'Angeles Shooting Ranges' for a session of testing.

It did not go well.

Every Cartridge was difficult to extract as the Action extractor would NOT hold the rim available on the cartridges.

I had numerous "light Firing Pin Strikes" when attempting to fire cartridges of both designs.

Two Cartridges that did fire resulted in the case stuck in the chamber (one in each of the two barrels) and the fired blank case came out of the case without releasing the case.

One stuck casee body did come out with a Cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle, but the other did not. In both cases the 'blank' did move back and vent to the outside due to rim failures. This is NOT Good Results but I have not yet dissected the the failures nor cleaned the two barrels as the outing also resulted in a Vehicle Start Failure that took more physical Effort than I should have exerted to get it started, so I got my self home and went to bed for a time of recovery. it is now after 2300 hours PDT as I type this 'interim Report'. I will get the rifle and barrels out of the vehicle Tomorrow morning and do the clean up, etc.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20140828 0830PDT: Started cleaning the two barrels and the 1894 Action this morning and observed that the barrels do NOT appear to be Head Spaced correctly.

Barrel #1 has a gap between Breech Block and Barrel rear face of about .025" PLUS a Rim Rebate depth of .057". The Rim of the .25 Stevens Long Rim Fire cartridge is between .045" and .050" thick. My 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim Fire designs have a rim Thickness of .040" to .043" so the effective Head Space for Barrel #1 is between .030" and .040" from fully seated Rim in the Rebate to the front of the Breech face. or, measured from Breech face to front of Rebate, about .080". this is probably why I had 'Light Firing Pin Strikes' and rim 'blowout Venting' experiences with this barrel.

Barrel #2 has a Gap of about .040" between barrel rear face and the Breech Block Face when seated in the action. The Rebate is not measurable as there is still a Case body stuck in the Chamber, which interferes with the measurement.
BUT .040" is WAY TOO MUCH gap!

The Breech Face is square and parallel to the Barrel so it appears NOT to have been damaged by the 'Blowouts'.

I will be taking this action and barrels back to my Gunsmith Today for his review and corrective action.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[John Boy]

Chev - I know you have done a lot of work to develop a 'parent' case for the Stevens 25RF ...
But quick and easy:
* Bush the firing pin
* Reform 22 Hornet cases to 25 Hornet
* Load with 8grs of FFg
Go to the range and have fun with the obsolete Stevens 25RF. That's what I did to my '94 Stevens

[Chev. William]

John Boy,
Thank you for the Suggestion about the .25 Hornet, or the .25 K Hornet, as a replacement for the .25 Stevens Long RF in my 1894 Stevens Favorite Rifle. I believe there is pressure problem with these cartridges unless down loaded considerably. The 25 Hornet is rated around 40,000psi (OOps that is for the .22 Hornet.) and the .25 Stevens is rated less than 25,000psi.
I will keep the idea in mind IF my development project is unsuccessful.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

As of last week my 1894 Action and the two barrels are back with my Gunsmith so all is quiet here for the Labor Day Holiday. I feel somewhat let down by the Head space problem that I found post test firing as I had not checked it before the Test. Oh Well, another Lesson to remember for the Future.

The light Firing Pin Strikes all seemed to measure about .008" to .010" deep on the roughly .040" rims and the ones that did fire after repeated strikes were about .015" to .020" deep. All the strike prints looked like they were the full width of the rim so the Tip was probably near the correct position if the Head Space had been correct, just that the Pin Travel was limited to less than needed for that head space.

Since the pin Travel before this rework cycle before the recent Test was Too Long, both to the front and to the rear, and needed travel "Adjustment" I guess that is reasonable. The pin no longer 'snagged' the hammer if tipped up, and did not appear to 'snag' the edge of the cartridge rim if tipped down, when closing action.

So Far, the Work on this action has cost me $225.00 not including parts I bought off Ebay as separate purchases nor the original cost of the Receiver and it's Transfer to my ownership.
Overall, and without the receipts in front of me, I would guess this rifle has cost about $500.00 to $600.00 so far. But I hope it is nearly completed as it has a Butt Stock and Forend fitted, one barrel is rigged with original 'iron' sights, and I have a Tang Sight I can add to it later.

Of the Rounds that I did fire: three are in a group low and to the Left of the Bulls eye (5" Black and labeled as "B-16" design) scoring 10x1, 9x1, 8x1, and three others scoring 6x1 and 5x2 (all at about 25 yards). Considering that each fired shot required between three and six strikes to ignite, I think there is potential for this rifle and myself once it is 'sorted out'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

ADDED 2014AAEP27: Talked to my gunsmith and he said the Pivot screws were 'bent' and is making new ones. I suggested making them out of 190,000psi high strength fasteners instead of regular steels.

Also I dropped off a partially complete replacement firing pin to have the retaining pin clearance groove cut in it to fit a 1915 modified Stevens Favorite I have that is fitted with a .600' wide custom machined Breech Block, and oversize pivot shoulder screws for both Breech Block and Lever.

This replacement firing pin is larger in body diameter than the stock 1915 Favorite one, and is machined from a Hardened high alloy pin with a inserted 5/64" diameter dowel pin as the Firing pin tip. Chev. William

[Chev. William]

"Matt's Bullets" sent me a box of 'as cast unsized-unlubed' Lyman 257420 bullets (about 100+).
This design is intended for a Gas Check so has a short reduced diameter heel on it and two 'lube grooves between three driving bands' with a Flat nose and rounded sides.
The dry as cast bullets seem to average 73.1 grains. After Tumble lube they seem to average 73.88 grains. This Bullet has the Sprue on the Base so the point is much more consistent in shape than one that is "nose poured" and has the sprue cut/print on the nose.

I wonder how much weight it might loose if a similar mold were shortened to remove the Gas Check Heel to leave a 'flat base'?

If these are cut with a "Cherry" could they easily be cut with the Heel section left out of the mold blocks or would it be better to just machine the Mold block pour face after the cavities are cut?

Does any reader have experience with 'modifing' molds in this manner?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[I'll Make Mine]

The gas check heel can be removed more easily by boring; either with a reamer that matches the drive band diameter, or a (carefully applied) drill bit. That would gain a grain or so in weight, rather than lose three or four grains. Of course, if you're shooting at pressure/velocity that doesn't require the gas check, there's generally no reason you can't just shoot the boolits as they drop or sized without a check.

[Chev. William]

The Lyman website says the "257420" is nominally a 65 grain bullet yet as cast by "Matt's Bullets" come out at around 73 grains when weighed upon an "RCBS" Beam Scale. This difference MAY indicate a difference in the Alloy used or a difference in the 'Cherry' used to cut the molds.

Since I would "Like" a bullet of close to 67 grains for use in ".25 Stevens" replacement cartridges and because I do not have any Lead Casting Equipment nor the funds to buy them: it looks like a mixed problem of finding out what alloy would cast at around 67 Grains out of this design mold.

I Did order a New Lyman "257420" mold that has arrived, paid for by shorting my monthly Food And Fuel Budget.
It will sit here until I can gather enough to send it to a Commercial Bullet Caster for them to Cast various alloy mixes to test alloys to find one that will come closer to the 67 grain weight 'As Cast' that I desire.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A little work has been done on my Stevens 1915 'Modified' Favorite action toward getting it into shooting form:

A Firing Pin is now fitted to the Modified Breech Block (the BB is wider than original and has a Bushing for the FP tip to go through). The FP is to be 'Heat Treated' by my gunsmith to give it impact strength as it is presently dead soft. The Rest of the Stocked action is also with the gunsmith to have several interchangeable "Take Down" barrels finish fitted for head space and the Extractors also final fitted for the following cartridges: .32 Long/.32 Long Colt; .25ACP/6.35mm Browning; .25 Stevens (Short and Long) RF; and .22 S-L-LR RF.

My current plan is to use the .22RF set Breech Block with Adapter cases in the other calibers so I can try out the firearm in the possible Cartridge Calibers. These are all used barrels, the .22 is a old marlin, and the others are Stevens originals, all show use, and the Stevens ones LONG use and spotty cleaning, but all have good remaining rifling in them.

The Action is attached to a Good Condition used Buttstock that I fitted to it and also added a steel plate between the Stock and the Aftermarket replacement "Stevens Favorite" Butt plate molding. The Steel plate is to 'protect' the stock 'heel' from chips in handling. I have also been able to find forearm wood for most of the barrels so they will make complete rifles when attached. I am still looking for some Sights to fit the Stevens Dove tails most fo which are NOT 3/8" nominal size.

I have on hand adapter cases for .32 Short, .32 Long, and .25 Stevens but need to make up some in .25ACP. These are set up for centered .22 RF blanks or Powder Actuated Tool Loads so should fire with the .22RF breech block in each barrel chambering. I will, of course, need to change extractors with the barrel interchange. I will be using the '1894' style extractors instead of the '1915' style combination Extractor/Ejector style as being easier to change at the range. These all have been set up to fit the 'modified' Action's .218" diameter Lever Pivot Screw. This Action also has a Large size Breech Block Pivot Screw fitted and slightly larger Link Pivot Pins also although the Hammer and Trigger Pivot Screws are the original sizes. By the way, the Firing Pin diameter is slightly larger in diameter than an original 1915 Firing Pin, so an original does NOT fit this Breech Block nor the assembled action.

The Stevens Marksman (model 12) action is still with the Gunsmith having a Barrel fitted to it and the 'cocking pin' fitted to the action so no further progress on that front yet.

My two Stevens 1894 Favorite actions are still with the gunsmith having new and stronger screws made, and heat treated this time, to replace the soft ones originally fitted by the gunsmith. He is making the new ones out of Grade 8 Bolts so the alloy should take nicely to Heat Treatment.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

It turns out making .22RF Blank Adapters to fit .25ACP seems to be NOT practical as the rim disappears when I tried to cut the rebate for the Blank rim. The Blank rim measures .268" diameter and .045" thickness compared to the .25ACP .303" Diameter and .050" thickness, I can see why the remaining Brass is too weak to survive. Oh well, I can still test the .25 Stevens Adapters, and the .32 Long Adapters in this Action.

This 'Modified' Stevens 1915 Favorite action and .25 Stevens barrel are now fitted with sights; a 'Western' German Silver Blade front sight, no barrel mounted rear sight as I do not have any to fit the narrow Stevens Dovetail groove, and an old Marble's "lever lock' Tang Peep Rear Sight.

Serviceable Forearm and Buttstock are Ebay purchases and the Buttstock is fitted with a homemade Steel spacer under a reproduction 'Stevens Favorite' Buttplate. I currently am 'admiring' it as is, "in the White", with the aged finish on the wood, I still have not decided on the final finishes, either for the wood or for the metal.

It does no tlook like I will get to take it to the Range until nest month due to the Range being closed Thanksgiving Day, which is the normal Thursday that is 'half price' and affordable by this Retired Person most months.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

The Lyman website says the "257420" is nominally a 65 grain bullet yet as cast by "Matt's Bullets" come out at around 73 grains when weighed upon an "RCBS" Beam Scale. This difference MAY indicate a difference in the Alloy used or a difference in the 'Cherry' used to cut the molds.

Since I would "Like" a bullet of close to 67 grains for use in ".25 Stevens" replacement cartridges and because I do not have any Lead Casting Equipment nor the funds to buy them: it looks like a mixed problem of finding out what alloy would cast at around 67 Grains out of this design mold.

I Did order a New Lyman "257420" mold that has arrived, paid for by shorting my monthly Food And Fuel Budget.
It will sit here until I can gather enough to send it to a Commercial Bullet Caster for them to Cast various alloy mixes to test alloys to find one that will come closer to the 67 grain weight 'As Cast' that I desire.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

The 257420 molds have changed over the years. There is a long running thread on the .25-50 on the Marlin Owners forum. Part of the discussion has been about the 257420 which has varied over the years which this pic shows.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/257420moldvariances.jpg
Left - Bullets I found at a gun shop some years ago
Center - Bullet from an early single cavity
Right - bullet sent to me made from a fairly current Lyman mold

The right hand bullet was made from Linotype and weighs 70 grs. In w.w. alloy it would weigh approx 5% more or about 73 grs.
To reduce the weight of that bullet made from w.w or 20/1 alloy which would be a much better choice of alloy than Lino, your mold could be shortened, reducing the length of the g.c. shank by a machinist.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

W30wcf:
Thank you for that photo with lengths noted. I measured the new lyman mold measures about .605" nose to base. it seems this design has 'grown' over the years.

Now to think on what to do now for my desired 67 grain bullet.

Have an Enjoyable Thanksgiving.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
If I get a chance this weekend I will take one of the .605" bullets and trim the g.c. shank back a bit at a time and check the weights to give you some idea of how much of the g.c. shank will need to remove. Since the bullet is made from Lino a final weight of 64 grs. or so would = approx a 67 gr. weight in w.w.

Thank you for the Thanksgiving wishes.
The same to you and yours.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Chev. Williams,
For every .015" of heel removed the weight drops by about 1 grain. The best thing to do would be to send the mold to whomever will be doing the casting and have them make a few bullets in the alloy they will be using. Weigh the bullets to get an average weight and have the mold shortened by the amount required to = 67 grains.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Sound like a good plan. Now I need to wait for more income to pay for the work.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[blackbahart]

just joined and recently picked up a winchester low wall in 25 rf
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p10/blackbahart/IMG_1772_zpsc7969dea.jpg (http://s124.photobucket.com/user/blackbahart/media/IMG_1772_zpsc7969dea.jpg.html)

[blackbahart]

this low wall I also converted to center fire and made up 150 cases from 22 hornet with 85 gr cast bullets and 4 gr of unique .For the rough bore it groups aprox 1 1/2 a 50 yards.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p10/blackbahart/IMG_1773_zps39a03765.jpg (http://s124.photobucket.com/user/blackbahart/media/IMG_1773_zps39a03765.jpg.html)

[Chev. William]

Very Nice! I bet you enjoy shooting it a Lot! The 85 Grain might be better at around 100 yards or more than the original .25-10 RF (.25 Stevens Long) 67 grain bullets.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I received a PM requesting I write up my Best Method of making .25 Stevens Cases and after thinking about it, decided to post the results on this Thread as a condensed set of notes:

Tools used;
RCBS "Primer Pocket Swager Tool Kit plus a 3/16 ID Fender Washer.
Piece of .2500" Drill rod with end tapered from about .180" to .2500" over a length of 1/2 inch.
Lee .25ACP Carbide Reloading Die Set, with the Sizing die verified as open from top of Carbide ring to threaded area (one of my sets had an internal 'burr' that extended into the Die Bore and caused deformation of the Mouth of cases).
Shell Holders for both .22 Hornet, AND .25ACP cartridges.
A Strong Reloading Press (RCBS "RC" Type Works).
An "H" Shell holder Adapter (nominally adapts replaceable shell holders to fit a Hollywood Press and I use it to hold a Shell holder in a Drill Press Vise).
A Half Inch Capacity Drill press (either Bench or Floor model).
"C" clamps.
Machinist's Drill Press vise with a Vertical 'V' groove in one Jaw a 3" or 4" is sufficient.
Large Rifle Cleaning Patch saturated with case lubricant.
3/16" or 7/32" Long Shaft Pin Punch ( with body relieved to fit the Bore of the Lee Sizing Die threaded Decapper end).
Hammer.
Case Trimmer set up for .25 Stevens Cases (a pilot made to fit the formed case Inside Diameters is Required).
#8 Machine Screw Drill/counterbore.
#2 Twist Drill (ADDED: A Sharp 7/32" Twist Drill is also usable.)
.22LR "Freeland" Match Grade Finish Chamber Reamer (PTG makes them).


Parent Case used:
.22 Hornet unfired Empty cases ( I have my best results with Privy-Partisan, "PPU", cases).

Method:
1. Set up .2500" Drill Rod expander punch in Drill press Chuck, Tighten Hard to hold it against both push and pull forces.
2. Place Vise on Drill Press Table and place "H" adapter in vise so its shank is held in the "V" Groove.
3. Install a .22 Hornet Shell Holder in the "H" adapter.
4. Carefully align the Shell holder Center under the tip of the Expander punch (the tip of the punch may be lightly run into the Primer hole in the Shell Holder to verify position, Clamp vise combination rigidly to the Drill Press Table (you do NOT want the Vise to lift when you extract the expander punch).
5. Place a .22 Hornet case in the Shell Holder.
6. Lower the tip of the Expander punch into the mouth of the case about 1/8 inch then retract it.
7. Rotate the case about 1/8 turn in the Shell holder.
8. Lower the tip of the Expander Punch into the mouth of the case an additional 1/8 inch over the previous insertion then retract again.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 until the Neck and Shoulder have been expanded to .250" inside Diameter, minus Brass spring back.
NOTE: make sure the punch enters the mouth without catching on the mouth as it WILL fold the edge if it does catch on the mouth edge.
10. Remove Expanded Case from Shell Holder and set aside for later further operations.
11. Repeat steps 5 through 10 for each case to be modified.

12. Set up Reloading Press with Lee Carbide .25ACP Sizing Die in place with the Lee Decapping/expanding parts removed.
13. install the Small Primer Pocket Swage Punch on the Press Ram.
14. Place the Stripper Cup over the Swage Punch.
15. Place the 3/16 ID Fender Washer on top of the Stripper Cup and over the Swage Punch.

Note: I found that Shipping Tape wrapped around the Stripper Cup and folded over the edge of the Fender washer will hold the washer in place nicely.

16. Wipe the outside of a Expanded Hornet case with the Saturated Cleaning Patch.
17. Place the Lubed Case on the the tip of the Swage punch.
18. With a Smooth continuous motion force the case into the sizing die until the case rim touches the bottom of the die.
19. Lower the Ram.
20. insert the Pin Punch into the top of the Die and insure its tip enters the case mouth and seats on the inside base of the Case.
21. Strike the pin Punch with the Hammer to drive the Case out of the Die.

NOTE: This will take several strikes with the Hammer.

22. Set the Resized case aside for further operations.
23. Repeat steps 16 through 22 for each case to be sized.

NOTE: There will be a roll of displaced Brass just above the Rim on each case processed to this point. This 'roll' needs to be removed before further work on the cases can be performed. It is best and easiest to use a lathe to trim the 'roll' off but it can be done in a Drill Press Chuck with a File. I will presume you will find a suitable means of trimming the 'roll' and have completed all the cases formed to this point, and continue with the method steps.

24. Trim Cases to 1.125"+/-.002" for Stevens Long replacements.

NOTE: This gives a .25 Stevens Long CF replacement case similar to the ".25-10 Halstead" Except it is suitable for .250" diameter bullets instead of .257" diameter bullets.

NOTE: if you wish to make Adapter Cases to use .22 Rim fire blanks and balls or bullets, then the Following steps will work.

25. Set up Drill Press and vise so as to center a Case held base up in the "V" groove under the Chuck.
26. Insert the #8 Machine Screw combination Drill/Counterbore in the Chuck.
27. Drill the Primer Pocket out and 'kiss' the rim with the counter bore (if wishing to have a 'Tight 22 RF rim rebate) or to a depth of .040" (if wishing a 'loose' 22 RF rim Rebate).
28. Set case aside for further operations.

29. Replace Combination Drill/counterbore in the chuck with the #2 Drill(or 7/32" Drill).
30. Install a pilot drilled case in the Vise.
31. Drill/ream the Base of the cartridge to .221"(#2 Drill size)(or .2185", the 7/32 Drill size).
32. Remove and set aside the drilled base case for further operations.
33. Repeat steps 30 through 32 until all cases are processed.

34. Replace the #2 Drill in the chuck with the .22LR "Freeland" Match Grade Finish Chamber Reamer.
35. Insert a Drilled base case in the Vise.
36. Ream, at SLOW Speed/Hand Turning the Chuck, the Case base to the proper depth (for "Loose Rebate", until reamer 'rebate edge' is just at the counterbore face and For "Tight Rebate", until the reamer 'rebate edge' has cut a .040" deep rebate in the base of the case).
37. Remove the finished Adapter Case from the Vise and set aside for further operations.

38. Remove Reamer from chuck and return it to its protective package.

39. Check all CF cases for internal burrs and reduced size flash hole (use the Decapping Punch to check flash hole diameter).
39A. Check all Adapter cases for Burrs in inside of case base.
40. I recommend tumbling the Completed cases in Crushed Walnut Shell medium to remove the lubricant.

This should give you a good basis for your own conversion process.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Abert Rim]

Chev., is there an epilogue to this fascinating thread?

[Chev. William]

Yes there is. I went further on trying various combinations of Tooling and Parent cases and did find another Case that can be reformed to yield CF replacement cases for the .25 Stevens Cartridge.
The Search and results are chronicled in the Following Threads on this Forum web site (all are locate-able by searching for ".25 Stevens" in all areas with 'Exact Words" disabled and arranged by "date").

.250/.257 Cartridges to .25ACP/.25 Stevens (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?283914-250-257-Cartridges-to-25ACP-25-Stevens-Diameters-from-5-7x28mm-once-fired-brass&highlight=.25+Stevens)
The 6.35x32mmSR STEWART "Mildcat", a potential Cheap (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?286203-The-6-35x32mmSR-STEWART-quot-Mildcat-quot-a-potential-Cheap-Cartridge-to-shoot&highlight=.25+Stevens)
6.35x28.6mmSR Stewart, a Viable Modern Cartridge (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?293045-6-35x28-6mmSR-Stewart-a-Viable-Modern-Cartridge-conversion-for-25-Stevens-Firearms&highlight=.25+Stevens)and on a further Project under way to use These cartridges:

Converting a Ruger .22WMR 'Single Six' to (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?293042-Converting-a-Ruger-22WMR-Single-Six-to-25ACP-6-35x28-6mmSR-Cartridges&highlight=.25+Stevens)Due to my Computer screen not displaying the FULL titles of each thread, the above truncated titles are the first few words of each thread's title.

As a Summary:
I discovered the 5.7x28mm cartridge is reformeable to Proper diameters with a multiple step diameter reduction process.
The first completed formed Case comes out 'short but usable as a equivalent of the ".250ALRM" 1.250" long Case.
It is now Published as the "6.35x32mmSR Stewart" Cartridge.
The Second completed formed and trimmed Case, made from the 'shortest' of the Above results, are equivalent to the ".250ALS" 1.125" Long case.
It is now Published as the "6.35x28.6mmSR Stewart" cartridge.
I have Acquired a Ruger .22 Caliber 'Single Six' Revolver that is in the Process of being fitted with a 10-5/8 inch Lothar Walther '.25ACP/6.35 browning Barrel and three Interchangeable 8-shot reproduction cylinders cut for:
A.) .25ACP Cartridge (as a baseline for Testing using Commercial Cartridges).
B.) .250ALS/6.35x28.6mmSR Stewart (limited to 1.400" overall cartridge length).
C.) .250ALRM/6.35x32mmSR Stewart (limited to 1.400" overall Cartridge length).
This Revolver was verified as suitable for .22WMR use by my Gun Shop by a call to Ruger with the Serial Number before Purchase. The reproduction cylinders were Purchased from 'Numerich Arms' along with replacement 'hand' for my gunsmith to trim so the 8-shot cylinders properly index in the Frame. He is also converting the Revolver from RF to CF use.

What Prompted the further investigations, and the Investment in added tooling to accomplish the Projects was the general 5 percent loss in forming the Hornet cases down in diameter.
Forming down the 5.7x28mm cases now Yields 100% usable formed cases with NO forming losses.

5.7x28mm "once fired" cases are available presently at about $80/1000 cases compared to about $32/100 cases for New PPU Hornet ones.

Being Retired and having limited "discretionary spending" funds made this more Interesting.

Have a Safe and Very Merry Christmas Holiday Season and Enjoy a Wonderful New Year.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Amartin]

any body now where I can get a few of these old rimfire rounds[smilie=b:

If people want ammo y’all going to have to request it from ammo makers I did and they said that they haven’t heard of that request and it needs to be requested more and then they might make it if they get enough request if people request it is the only way there will be new ammo made go to Aguila Ammunition website and go to contact then where it said message and tell them that they should make 25 Rimfire

[Chev. William]

Thanks for that Hint. I will try following it myself.

Further on my .25 'Stevens' CF Wildcatting:

- 1. A published .25ALRM of nominal 1.250 Case Length made from once fired 5.7x28mm brass.
- 2. A published .25ALS of nominal 1.125" Case length also made from once fired 5.7x28mm brass (similar to .25 Stevens RF Case length).
- 3. A published .25MACP of nominal 1.024"-1.055" Case length made from once fired 5.7x28mm brass (similar to .22WMR case length).
- 4. A published .25ALS of nominal 0.960" Case length made from once fired 5.7x28mm Brass (similar to .22WRF case length).
- 5. A wildcat based upon swaging down the .25ACP case to .250" diameter is similar to the .22 Winchester Automatic RF cartridge or the .221 Askins CF cartridge depending on the Trim length.
- 6. A wildcat based upon swaging down the .25ACP case to .246" diameter is similar to the .22 Remington Auto RF cartridge.
- 7. A wildcat based upon swaging down the .25ACP case to .226" diameter is similar to the .22 Lonmg/Long Rifle except it is CF.

I now have Two Custom Ruger handguns converted to .25ACP or similar Cartridges:
First; a Ruger Convertible .22 CAL Single Six modified to CF, and fitted with a 10-5/8" barrel along with Eight Shot cylinders for .25ACP, .25ALR, .25MACP, .25ALS, and .25ALRM used for Load development.
Second; a Ruger Standard .22LR Auto MKII Pistol converted to CF and fitted with a 8-1/8" long .25ACP barrel.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Sadly, at this time I can only drool over That Offer.
Chev. William

[m3russ]

I found a way to make primed .25 rimfire cases. I bought a box of .17 Winchester Super Magnum. Pulled the bullets and dumped the powder. Cut the cases as close to the shoulder as I could with a tubing cutter (a lathe would probably work better). Inside reamed the folded inside rim the tubing cutter leaves. Then trimmed to the length of the shortest case. It longer than a .25RF short but shorter than a .25RF long. The cases fit perfectly in my Stevens .25RF pistol. Loaded with pyrodex and .25ACP 50 gr bullets. About 700 fps. Don't know about accuracy. If you "refine" this process let me know. Thanks

[uscra112]

The idea of converting .17 WSM has been around for a while. I finally worked out a way to anneal the case mouths without setting off the primer, so they can be expanded without 90% of them splitting, but then discovered that the .17 WSM rim is too thick/hard for any of my boys' rifles to fire. Bought a Model 44 which has a much stronger hammer blow, but health ain't doing me any favors of late, so despite having 50+ full length cases ready to load way back in March, I haven't done it.

I've never understood why there ever was a .25 RF Short. Nobody ever chambered a gun for them, and the unsupported leap through the chamber from case mouth to rifling leade in a standard gun cannot have done anything good for accuracy. Stevens did not approve of their use in any of their guns.

Meanwhile I'm doing a little experimenting with breech-seating a bullet and using .27 Ramset loads as the propellant. My boys' rifles will fire those, but getting them into the Favorite without having them slip behind the extractor is a PITA, because they're so short. The experimenting is focused on tools to get them into (and out of) the gun with a minimum of cussing.

[Chev. William]

.27 PTL body length is definitely short compared to .25 Stevens cases, somewhat like a Short it seems.

perhaps partially closing the action so the extractor/ejector is against the breech instead of out away from it would ease getting the PTL in position properly.

I wonder if the simple extractor would be easier to use with PTL than the snap acting Combination Extractor/Ejector?

Alternatively, perhaps a custom tool to hold the rim/head of the PTL while slipping the body into the breech would be useful.
perhaps a section of rectangular cross section brass tubing could be found to fit the rim, then one long side cut away enough to allow the body to enter the end sideways, so the rim and base is held with slight tension.
Another Idea is a pair of needle nose small pliers with a semicircular groove dut across both jaw tips so a case could be easily held without slipping?
Chev. William