Is a .358 boolit too big for a .3545 bore?

[woody2]

Slugged the barrel on my SA EMP at .3545 so I tried a .356 sized boolit. Bad choice since it produced quite a bit of leading. I have a .358 sizing die that I'd like to try before buying a .357 die. But .... is .358 too big for the barrel? I'm casting a 125 gr boolit using straight wheel weights.

[PacMan]

If you sluged the barrel and it came out .3545 you most likely have a bad case of thread choke an NO bullet size will work. What did you measure the slug with.Calipers do not work very well for such measurements.

[Bret4207]

Dwight has a good point. Revolvers, especially SA clones, seem to be known for constrictions. If that's not the case then the only way to see if the gun likes that size boolit is to try. Start low and slow and see.

[btroj]

I am with Bret, try it and see. Start with a low velocity, low pressure load and work up.
This is also a situation where I find a softer rather than harder bullet works better for me.

[hAkron]

I don't think woody is talking about a revolver, SA EMP would be a Springfield Armory EMP compact 1911 pattern pistol in 9mm.

[462]

Not enough information always leads to a guessing game and only assures incorrect answers.

I don't own anything in 9 mm -- if, indeed, that is the gun's calibre -- but, if the measurements were made with a micrometer, I suspect that the boolit's diameter is not causing the leading and there are other factors involved.

A partial list of necessary information will include:
1. What dies are you using? (Especially if it happens to include Lee's carbide factory crimp die.)
2. What are you using for lube?
3. What powder and how much?
4. What type of measuring tool did you use?
5. What alloy was the slug made of?
6. Did you slug the barrel multiply times?

[woody2]

Not enough information always leads to a guessing game and only assures incorrect answers.

I don't own anything in 9 mm -- if, indeed, that is the gun's calibre -- but, if the measurements were made with a micrometer, I suspect that the boolit's diameter is not causing the leading and there are other factors involved.

A partial list of necessary information will include:
1. What dies are you using? (Especially if it happens to include Lee's carbide factory crimp die.)
2. What are you using for lube?
3. What powder and how much?
4. What type of measuring tool did you use?
5. What alloy was the slug made of?
6. Did you slug the barrel multiply times?


1. RCBS Carbide set. I'm seating the bullet to 1.25 OAL before crimping. Using only enough crimp to remove the bell.
2. Lyman hollow stick in a Lyman #45 lubrisizer
3. Bullseye 3.5 grs
4. Starrett digital Micrometer.
5. pure lead
6. slugged it twice. Same readings from each slug.

Thanks, guys. I'm trying to do this right. I've read a lot of the posts here on the 9mm and have tried to follow the advice you've given to others. Based on posts in other threads it looks like .001" to .003" over the bore diameter should be work. My first try is .0015 over and it does lead. Not extensive leading with 25 rounds, but some. I have a .358 sizing die that I'd like to try before buying a .357 die but that would put the bullet .0035 over the bore diameter. Is that too big?

I know there is a lot of expertise here and I appreciate the help. And yes, it's a 9mm compact 1911A1.

[sgabel1]

I have a S&W 5904 that slugs the same as your SA. I use a Lyman 356402 sized using a Lyman 450 and 358 die. It measures .3575 when sized. The biggest problem I have with the 9mm is the taper inside the case swages the bullet. This is particularly bad with Win case. I have pulled bullets that were swaged down to as small as .353 and caused leading and key holing at 25 ft. I use a Lyman M die in 9mm and there is still bounce back with Win cases. I have found that Federal and Speer cases have less taper and have reduced both leading and improved accuracy in my S&W. If you don't use an M die I would give it a try.

I have also found that fast powders like Bullseye seem to contribute to leading. I find that leading is reduced when I use either Power Pistol or Blue Dot, both of which are slower powders. I have tried Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique and find the slower powders work better in 9mm. Also with slower powder pressure spikes are not as severe.
All said and done I still get a small amount of leading in my S&W but it cleans up pretty easy with a bronze brush and some Eds Red. 9mm are not very forgiving when it comes to lead!

[dverna]

sgabel1 raises some good points about the 9mm case I had not considered.

I have never had great results with cast bullets in the 9mm except for a Kahr CW9 that seems to do OK with them (the bullets are sized .356). I am awaiting delivery of a Sub-2000 that will be used for a lot of plinking and hope to use cast bullets to keep costs down.

I will be curious to see how this thread develops.

Don

[Catshooter]

Pure lead? That could be a problem. I push a .456 boolit (wheel weights) down a .451 bore with zero leading.

Welcome to the forum.


Cat

[garym1a2]

WSF is a slow powder and I get good results with it in my Glock.
In my brothers XDM I had to slow its velocity down a bit to get it to shoot clean.

[MtGun44]

I think pure lead was just the slug. What is the boolit alloy? ACooled
or water dropped?

Load a boolit, then pull it and see if the case is sizing it down.

If the gun will chamber a .358 diam, give it a try.

"Lyman hollow stick" ??? what lube. Lyman has made a lot of different
ones over the years. NRA 50-50 is a good place to start. LBT soft blue is
also excellent. Heated lube or soft lube?

Bill

[Doble Troble]

If the gun will chamber a .358 diam, give it a try.

I agree. I've never had a 9 that would shoot 0.356 bullets without significant leading. I've never had 0.358 bullets lead much in any (but a little leading always seems to happen - but it's not the soldered-on PITA to remove kind with 0.358s).

[357shooter]

What size are the cast boolits before sizing? Maybe I missed it, but a sizing die only makes them smaller.

[woody2]

Thanks for the suggestions. I hadn't thought about the case swaging the bullet so I'll look at that tomorrow. I'll also see if a .358 will chamber and if it does I'll load up a few. Can't get to the range until the end of the week though so the shooting trial will have to wait a few days.

The pure lead was used to slug the barrel. I'm using wheel weights for the shooting stock.

[Cherokee]

Don't know about your gun, but my 9mm & 38 Supers are .355 barrels. I shoot .356 sized cast bullets in both from mild to hot loads. I get trace leading and it does not build up in 2-300 rounds. Cleans up real nice with a bore brush. Works for me.

[mroliver77]

You did not say how you came up with the over all length. I set up autos by seating the boolit to just touch the rifling or meet resistance, that is if it will still feed at that length. If it wont feed I usually go the longest that it will handle.

I have had the situation where Bulls Eye would lead and going to Blue Dot with no other changes completely cured the leading problem.

Yep, check for case swaging.

My 9 will swallow .358 boolits.
J

[G__Fred]

All, I have reviewed the thread and some GREAT information! I have a SR9 and cast as well. I learned on a loaned friends Star (lucky or unlucky me). I now have a Star but the smallest Sizing Die is .358. From this thread, I will try the .358 on my next round of sizing. THANKS!

[918v]

In theory, the bullet must fit the freebore else it either won't chamber or you'll get gas cutting. Gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly. Gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move. But not if the bullet is big enough to seal the freebore before ignition. You'll need to figure out the freebore, size your bullet .001" under (so it will chamber reliably), and hope it is soft enough to obturate.

[turbo1889]

So long as it will freely chamber 0.358" isn't too big even for a 9mm with a true tight bore that is on spec for a 9mm (yours seems to be one that is).

Believe it or not, the most extreme case of an oversize boolit I have encountered was a 303-brit. where the barrel measured 0.315"/0.304" but the chamber, chamber neck, and throat were so loose that we found out that using an as cast 8mm boolit from the Lee mold measuring about 0.325" diameter produced the best accuracy we where able to obtain with that gun and cast boolits which was about 5" groups at 100 yards.

:veryconfu :holysheep [smilie=b:

Long story short, lead squeezes down pretty easily and having a boolit that is big enough to fill the neck and throat of the gun is more important then the boolits diameter compared to the barrel groove and land dimensions.

[G__Fred]

Thanks Trubo1889!

As I am learning it would make since to me that a good initial seal is a tad more important than the fit in the barrel (as the bullet cross the area from case (no-rotation) to the barrel, (mandatory rotation)). I do realize that both will affect accuracy but a "solid start" seems to be a foundation item to the fit and glide down the lands.

[357shooter]

Gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly. Gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move.
If that were the case, we would get gas cutting and leading all the time. Which in fact doesn't happen. There was another thread discussing if gas or the bullet opened the crimp, the consensus was it's the bullet. The gas may overtake the bullet later in the process, that usually does produce leading. But not before it begins to move. IHMO

[918v]

Physics disagrees with your position. So does Paul Matthews.

[tommygirlMT]

918v --- I know you --- you were banned from the Glock Talk forum --- and you were banned from the handloads.com forum which is a forum that I am also a member of and I remember you --- and they havn't even threatened to ban me over there for speaking my mind and saying exactly what I mean --- I have been warned on this forum --- you and your trollish fight picking behavior will not last long on this forum where even I have to be extra careful in order to survive and although many would say I like to pick a fight and cause a ruckus I am nothing compared to you

As for physics --- you should know that almost nothing happens "instantly" in physics --- nothing at all on the Newtonian level --- You have to get down to quantums and strings before "instantly" is an honest fact of the matter not an exaduration of a high speed event

Secondly --- engineering dynamics and strengths and properties of materials is the practical application of physics to the question at hand and discussing it in those terms instead of pure Newtonian physics provides a higher quality discussion where time proven equations and stress yeild charts can be brought into the discussion allowing the greater wealth of accumulated industrial and scientific engineering to be brought into the discussion --- the situation under discussion is effectively that of a piston in a sleave within a stepped bore where the sleave serves to seal the rear of the bore under pressure expansion which propegates at sificiantly high enough speed that hydrostatic shock wave analysis best suits the problem for a good fit solution

If you are not willing to discuss the question on that level and simply choose to throw a profanity and personal attack laden temper tantrom then I will be unable to discuss this with you since as I stated I cannot engage you on a lower level or I risk problems with the moderators myself on this forum --- If you are willing to discuss the situation at that level I am willing to debate you

Next move is yours --- 918v

[357shooter]

Physics disagrees with your position. So does Paul Matthews.
This thread is about a 9mm pistol, which uses smokeless powder. Are you talking Black Powder?

[BAGTIC]

If a loaded round will chamber then try it. Start slowly.

A .308 rifle barrel will normally take a ..311 bullet. That is .003 oversize, in the same range you are discussing.

I commonly shoot .315+ bullets in my .32 Magnum revolver. They work great with no leading. Just work up your load using the OS bullets from the get go.

[mpmarty]

If it chambers it isn't too large. In a pistol like yours the barrel will "size" the boolit to the correct diameter.

[918v]

This thread is about a 9mm pistol, which uses smokeless powder. Are you talking Black Powder?

I'm talking about smokeless powder.

[918v]

918v --- I know you --- you were banned from the Glock Talk forum --- and you were banned from the handloads.com forum which is a forum that I am also a member of and I remember you --- and they havn't even threatened to ban me over there for speaking my mind and saying exactly what I mean --- I have been warned on this forum --- you and your trollish fight picking behavior will not last long on this forum where even I have to be extra careful in order to survive and although many would say I like to pick a fight and cause a ruckus I am nothing compared to you

As for physics --- you should know that almost nothing happens "instantly" in physics --- nothing at all on the Newtonian level --- You have to get down to quantums and strings before "instantly" is an honest fact of the matter not an exaduration of a high speed event

Secondly --- engineering dynamics and strengths and properties of materials is the practical application of physics to the question at hand and discussing it in those terms instead of pure Newtonian physics provides a higher quality discussion where time proven equations and stress yeild charts can be brought into the discussion allowing the greater wealth of accumulated industrial and scientific engineering to be brought into the discussion --- the situation under discussion is effectively that of a piston in a sleave within a stepped bore where the sleave serves to seal the rear of the bore under pressure expansion which propegates at sificiantly high enough speed that hydrostatic shock wave analysis best suits the problem for a good fit solution

If you are not willing to discuss the question on that level and simply choose to throw a profanity and personal attack laden temper tantrom then I will be unable to discuss this with you since as I stated I cannot engage you on a lower level or I risk problems with the moderators myself on this forum --- If you are willing to discuss the situation at that level I am willing to debate you

Next move is yours --- 918v

Your post is off topic. I have not thrown a temper tantrum, or uttered profanity, or anything of the sort. You have mischaracterized my responses in this thread. I suggest you stick to lead and gas, instead of psychology.

Simply stated, gas travels faster than lead. If the lead slug is large enough to seal the system from the outset, no gas cutting will occurr. If the slug is undersize, then you are ballancing the acceleration of the slug, obturation of the slug, and the speed of the gas. Gas is more likely to win if the slug is grossly undersized or too hard.

[canyon-ghost]

If the lead slug is large enough to seal the system from the outset, no gas cutting will occurr.

...at normal velocities, yes. There are some experiments at top end loads that prove even with proper bullet fit, it is possible to push a powder charge fast enough to get gas cutting within the barrel. Of course, accuracy goes out the window so, the top end loads prove almost nothing except that there is extreme velocity gas cutting.

[918v]

...at normal velocities, yes. There are some experiments at top end loads that prove even with proper bullet fit, it is possible to push a powder charge fast enough to get gas cutting within the barrel. Of course, accuracy goes out the window so, the top end loads prove almost nothing except that there is extreme velocity gas cutting.

Would that be in the case of pushing too soft of an alloy at too high of a pressure thereby causing the alloy to fail?

I can see someone running a soft 115gr bullet at 1400 FPS out of their 9, but why?

[tommygirlMT]

Your post is off topic. <snip>

You made the false claim that “Gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly” --- When you were called on this false claim you made the second mistake of claiming that “physics” backed up your false claim and in so doing added another false claim to back yourself up when caught in your first false claim --- It is analogous to using a bigger lie to cover yourself when you get caught in a smaller lie --- NOTE --- I said analogous to a lie not that you lied --- a lie is a false claim that the claimant knows to be false at the time of making the false claim --- I cannot prove that you knew that your claim was false at the time you made it so I cannot claim you lied --- but you did make a false claim and when you got called on that false claim you tried to cover with an even bigger and more ludicrous false claim --- For you to expect not to be called on the even bigger and more ludicrous false claim was wishful thinking at best


<snip> I have not thrown a temper tantrum, or uttered profanity, or anything of the sort. You have mischaracterized my responses in this thread. I suggest you stick to lead and gas, instead of psychology. <snip>

You are correct that so far you have not done so as of yet on this thread --- You do --- however --- have a past reputation that I am personally aware of in several cases and I wanted to make the conditions under which I was willing to debate you utterly and completely clear including under which conditions I would not engage you --- On another forum with looser rules I would have no problem getting “down in the mud” if necessary --- I cannot do that on this forum --- they wont allow it --- thus I must maintain the language and tone of a debate


<snip> Simply stated, gas travels faster than lead. If the lead slug is large enough to seal the system from the outset, no gas cutting will occurr. If the slug is undersize, then you are ballancing the acceleration of the slug, obturation of the slug, and the speed of the gas. Gas is more likely to win if the slug is grossly undersized or too hard.

Now I can and do agree with that statement --- and to my knowledge it is consistent with “physics” --- it is not the same statement as you originally made --- and that you tried to cover up with a false and even more ludicrous “physics backs this up” claim --- along with “name dropping” to deflect to someone else rather then putting forth solid scientific “physics” information to back up your position yourself


<snip> Gas travels at 7000 FPS instantly. Gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move. But not if the bullet is big enough to seal the freebore before ignition. <snip>

*(color coding added and not in your original post)

Instantly --- This claim is absolutely false and absolutely ludicrous --- as I previously stated:


<snip> As for physics --- you should know that almost nothing happens "instantly" in physics --- nothing at all on the Newtonian level --- You have to get down to quantums and strings before "instantly" is an honest fact of the matter not an exaggeration of a high speed event <snip>

7000 FPS --- I would like to see the data that proves that --- or at least indicates it is so --- not saying it is a false claim but I dont accept it at face value

Overtake & Seal --- it is clear from your two choices of words and how they are used that you are talking about the gas traveling around the boolit --- commonly know as gas cutting --- Im “binding down” the meanings before proceeding to tackling the larger statement in which they are used

Gas will overtake the bullet before it even begins to move. But not if the bullet is big enough to seal the freebore before ignition. --- Before it even begins to move? --- Really? --- Some proof of this claimed fact is necessary --- and what is this about freebore? --- If this is taking place “before the boolit even begins to move” as you claim then unless you are breach seating your boolits in the bore and loading the case separately afterwards at least the bottom few drive bands of the boolit are still inside the case neck and the gas has to “overtake” that “seal” between the boolit and the case neck before whether or not the boolit fits the freebore or throat of the gun and seals it is even involved in the discussion

Again I emphasis that I wish to debate you on these points and conduct myself accordingly and if you wish to engage at a lower level I will be forced to abandon the discussion since I will not be able to reply in kind and maintain myself on this forum --- I await your rebuttal/redirect --- I step down --- The podium is open for you now if you wish to take it

[turbo1889]

Ouch !!!


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/29574eadeb7b9562d.jpg

[918v]

tommygirl,

You are making a big deal out of nothing, dredging up ancient history, assasinating my character because you don't have an argument.

You are trolling.