Looking for someone who could possibly help

[dukhnt]

Hi guys. I started the thread below in another forum that I spend a lot of time in. A guy in that forum directed me here for some possible help. Its nice to meet all of you guys, and hopefully someone can offer some guidance and help.

I will just post the link to the other thread. Thanks in advance for any help, I appreciate it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/208870_Anyone_here_a_master_reloading_gooru_.html

[leadman]

There is another website that could possibly be of help to you as many of the guys shoot wildcats and there are several gunsmiths that frequent the site.
Google Speciality Pistols

This could be a one of a kind cartridge also but without knowing the dimensions it is hard to tell. If you can find a 225 Winchester case to compare it to this may help. The JDJ rounds are based on it, but it still has the rim on it but the body is shaped similar to your cartridge. Getting the rim turned down should not be a big issue to deal with.

[XWrench3]

i read some of the posts. did you get a set of dies, and do you have even one empty (or loaded) cartridge casing?

[dukhnt]

i read some of the posts. did you get a set of dies, and do you have even one empty (or loaded) cartridge casing?

I have not ordered a set of dies....I do have about 15 loaded and 15 empty cases.

[mpmarty]

I have not ordered a set of dies....I do have about 15 loaded and 15 empty cases.

Do you by any chance own a micrometer?

If so:

Please measure and post the:

1. Rim diameter
2. Body diameter 1/4" forward of the rim
3. Shoulder diameter at the large part of the case near the neck.
4. Overall length of the fired case.

Looking at the photos I believe you are mistaken on the parent being a 30/30.

[dukhnt]

Do you by any chance own a micrometer?

If so:

Please measure and post the:

1. Rim diameter
2. Body diameter 1/4" forward of the rim
3. Shoulder diameter at the large part of the case near the neck.
4. Overall length of the fired case.

Looking at the photos I believe you are mistaken on the parent being a 30/30.

I dont have one, im sorry, but if its something I need to buy to help you guys out, Ill be happy to. I am certain the brass starts out as a 30/30. The loaded ones and the empty casings have the 30-30 Win on the bottom. A local gunsmith who was familiar with Tony and his custom caliber also confirmed they started out as a 30 30.

[XWrench3]

well, to be honest, i have not tried my hand at sizing one caliber to another. but if you are willing to take the chance, i would be as well. no matter who does it, unless you find someone who already has a set of dies, you will need to have a set. you will need forming die(s) and reloading dies (full length sizing die, and or neck sizing die, and seating / crimping die for reloading. Imperial sizing wax, and of course, brass. you should be able to get good once fired brass from gunbroker.com at a good price compared to brand new brass. of course, if you want new brass, that is up to you. you will probably also need some "Tempilaq" paint which melts @ 475 degrees for annealing the brass after forming. that should be available at welding shops, or anyone that retails hornady products. they sell a kit to do it.

[Wayne Smith]

Wow! I read your posts and thought, you are completely unprepared for this pistol. You insist that you don't want to reload yet are asking about one of the most complicated aspects of reloading available. I think you need to sit down and think hard about what you really want and what you are willing to do to accomplish it.

In the process, ask your self if you will be satisfied with ammunition that someone else made? If so there are a couple of custom cartridge makers out there who will find this child's play. If not, you really don't want our answers unless you are willing to learn a couple of new skills. This is really your question, do I want to buy ammo or do I want to make ammo?

[Iron Mike Golf]

I have never heard or read of converting a rimmed cartridge to a rimless one. Even if that what was done, I gotta think .30 Rem is a better starting point than 30-30.

[leftiye]

Rechamber it to a 30-30 headsize. Or anything else that will fit your bolt face if anything does. That rimless design has to be cut on a lathe (reduce rim size and cut groove) - waste of time. Open up the bolt face, or rechamber it or rebarrel it to something that works. 6mms are overrated, I've been messing with them since I designed a wildcat that turned out to be the same as the 244 Ackley improved - about thirty five years ago. Nice cartridge you've got, just hafta be insane to go that route. 22/30-30 or 6mm/30-30 wouldn't be too bad (full length, shoulder blown way forward).

[XWrench3]

i guess i should have looked all the way thru the posts until i got to the picture one. i would have no way of converting a rimmed case to a rimless, so i will not be able to help after all. sorry.

[cbrick]

I agree completely with Wayne Smith. You bought a pistol that cannot be fired without a solid knowledge of handloading, NOT reloading . . . handloading. Yes there is a big difference.

Looking for someone to do this and handload for you on the internet is a recipe for disaster. There would be no way for you to determine before hand if they had a clue what they were doing and you wouldn't know until you pulled the trigger. At that time it's a bit late to find out they didn't. Next, you will have to trust a complete stranger, I have worked with many wildcats and there is no way to do what you ask without sending them the gun to properly fit brass to. I wouldn't even take the time to consider such a project without the fiream in hand to work with. Do you want to ship off your firearm to a total stranger you found on the internet?

My suggestions are, if the firearm has sentimental value make a safe queen out of it, if not sell it. For resale value you should send a couple of fired cases to RCBS and have a set of dies made, a considerable expense. Without the dies the firearm has far less value even to someone that does know how to make brass and handload for it.

Or, learn handloading, a learning curve that comes with several years of reloading experience.

Or, rechamber it to a caliber that you can buy factory ammo for.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear but it is reality and you did ask for guidance and help.

Rick

[HORNET]

Depending on final case length, you might be able to use 6.8 SPC brass. .30/.32 Rem cases are a little longer but MUCH harder to find. 6 MM Wasp dies MIGHT work but I wouldn't buy dies based on guesswork. You need somebody close enough to work directly with that has substantial experience to pass along.

[Wayne Smith]

Bob Hayley apparetly is a friend of Terry Wieland who writes for Handloader. He's been featured in several articles, including one in this issue. He's the kind of person I was thinking of when I suggested a professional reloader. I know my bro gets 43 Spanish BP loads from someone I think in Wisconsin, again a professional reloader.

From what I've read about Bob he would probably require the gun to consider the project. Fired and unfired cases might be enough, but I doubt it.

[35isit]

I went to the other site and seen the picture of the gun. Although not the same cartridge I had the privilege of shooting one of these fine guns. There are very few of them. They were built one at a time. The gunsmith that built it at Herrets is now passed on I believe. I know I wouldn't rechamber or rebarrel this gun. If I wanted to shoot it I would either get the equipment necessary to load for it or contact a custom reloader to load me some. Those guns are truly works of art.

[Jailer]

Not trying to send you on a wild goose chase, but go to the link below and look up a guy that goes by the name of Wilcatter, Tim LeGendre. I bet if anyone can tell you a bit about that gun and cartridge he can.

http://450bushmaster.net/index.php?sid=f0d3c92ff85586684992667922b72081

[cbrick]

If I wanted to shoot it I would either get the equipment necessary to load for it or contact a custom reloader to load me some.

I wouldn't recommend someone that doesn't have even basic reloading knowledge/experience to get the equipment needed and take on this project.

It appears to be a mute point however, it seems that dukhnt didn't hear what he wanted to hear and has moved on, it's been a week since he posted.

He will probably go from forum to forum until he does hear what he wants to hear. I hope this doesn't cause him grief, I wish him the best but I hope he doesn't attempt this project himself, it would be a shame to turn a fine firearm into a hand grenade.

Rick

[35isit]

Cbrick, Your post is well taken. My comment was to say don't alter the gun. If he wants to shoot it he has to make some hard choices. In my opinion it would be like taking a good 1st generation Colt SA in one caliber and changing the cylinder and barrel to another.

[dverna]

Wayne and cbrick have it nailed down pretty good.

Even if he finds someone to load whatever he has, he will be looking at $2-3 per round. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

See if the gun can be re-barreled to a standard round and keep the current barrel for the day he goes to heaven to meet its makers.

Don

[redneckdan]

I replied to your thread over on Arfcom. What you have there is a rimless version of the 6mm-30/30 ackley improved. Like I said on arfcom, shoot me a PM if you want more info.


-Dan

[Tatume]

While the disappearance of the OP may make this a moot point, I would be most concerned about the conversion from a rifle action to a pistol. Even if it was done legally, if he doesn't have the paperwork it is no longer legal.

[cbrick]

While the disappearance of the OP may make this a moot point, I would be most concerned about the conversion from a rifle action to a pistol. Even if it was done legally, if he doesn't have the paperwork it is no longer legal.

Nothing illegal about it, even here in Commiefornia.

I have a Sako short action in 6.5mm Ugalde (the original 7 TCU) built by gunsmith Wes Ugalde in the late 70's or early 80's. I have custom XP-100's in custom/widcat calibers and have had several others. They were all built as pistols, where you run foul of the law is when you take a rifle and shorten the barrel shorter than 16", that's a federal no-no.

Ugalde bought the short actions directly from Sako back when they were still available and built them as pistols, none of them where ever rifles. The XP-100 while built on the Rem 700 action came directly from the factory as pistols and none were ever rifles. Perfectly legal!

Rick

[Tatume]

While I have no doubt about your facts, the BATFE sometimes takes a different view. If you have the paperwork to demonstrate that the action was never a rifle action they will accept it. If you do not have the paperwork, they may or may not take your word for it.

The OP wrote in another forum:


Our gunsmith was an amazing guy who built a custom pistol out of a Sako A1 action.

He makes no mention of the source of the action. There are pistols out there that have been converted from rifles (I've seen them offered for sale at gun shows), and they are indistinguishable from pistols that were built legally. Without the paperwork I wouldn’t have it in my possession.

[cbrick]

There are pistols out there that have been converted from rifles (I've seen them offered for sale at gun shows), and they are indistinguishable from pistols that were built legally. Without the paperwork I wouldn’t have it in my possession.

Suit yourself. The vast majority of such pistols are XP-100's though there are other brand names producing their own actions and building single shot hunting/silhouette pistols. Given there has never been an XP-100 factory rifle and XP-100 is stamped on the action what paper work would you be looking for?

A perfect example would be the interchangeable barrel T/C Contender, there is no paper work required that says it was never a rifle. There is also a T/C Carbine (exact same action) and neither are illegal or require paper work. If you buy a Contender pistol or if you buy the Carbine all that is required to make a rifle out of the Contender or a handgun out of the rifle is to change the stocks & swap barrels. To do so is illegal and your serial number is your paper work. If you are caught with a serial number registered by the mfg as a T/C Carbine and you have a barrel under 16" on it your in trouble (in California). In America you can swap back and forth at will but in CA you can have both the Contender and the Carbine but you have to buy two guns (actions) to do it, one serial number registered as a handgun and one as a rifle. Now this is a "common sense" gun law that should make all Californians feel safe and give them a warm fuzzy feeling.

Any way, there is no such paper work, the serial number is the paper work. If you are ever interested in such a pistol all you need to do to cover your hieny is get the serial number and contact the BATF, tell them your interested in purchasing the firearm and ask them if this action has ever been a rifle and/or is it properly registered as a handgun.

By the way, what state are you in?

Rick

[Tatume]

Suit yourself. The vast majority of such pistols are XP-100's though there are other brand names producing their own actions and building single shot hunting/silhouette pistols. Given there has never been an XP-100 factory rifle and XP-100 is stamped on the action what paper work would you be looking for?

A perfect example would be the interchangeable barrel T/C Contender, there is no paper work required that says it was never a rifle.

Hi Rick,

Perhaps I've been unclear, as we're talking about two different things. You speak of factory pistols, and I specified pistols custom-built from rifle actions. As you point out, the XP-100 was not a rifle (although some rifles have been built from XP-100 actions, and the conversion back to a pistol would be illegal without BATFE approval). Therefore, there is no need for paperwork with the XP-100 pistol.

The T/C Contender is a settled case, and the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that it is legal to convert a Contender back and forth. Again, no paperwork needed.

The Sako A1 action is primarily a rifle action, and pistols built from this action could easily have been built from an action that had never been barreled as a rifle, or one from which the rifle barrel had been removed. The custom-built pistol based on the Sako A1 action could be legal or not, and the only way to tell is by the paperwork.

Take care, Tom (in Virginia)