Lets talk crimp. Help me understand

[randyrat]

Pistol rounds mainly. Does the crimp on a pistol round open up before the bullet leaves the case by blow- by and /or pressure or does the bullet open the crimp by it's exiting and forcing the crimp to open?

[Bret4207]

IMO if the crimp opened by blow by then the whole of the boolit would be erroded and you'd get leading with every round. I believe, but don't know for sure, that the boolit opens the crimp.

[cajun shooter]

I will agree with Bret on this one. If it did not open the case by it's forward movement then the law of physics would not come into play.

[44man]

I used to laugh when anyone said the case "jumps" open leaving a boolit hanging free!
It is why lead too soft in a crimped case does not do well, the crimp does not open fully and the boolit is scraped under size trying to get through what is left. I have found many cases at the range with half the crimp still on the brass.
Boolits must be hard enough to iron out the crimp.
It is funny too that some make soft boolits larger then throats but then force them through a crimp. SLUMP is what makes them seal. I like to use putty around pipe threads, not in my guns! :veryconfu

[HeavyMetal]

"Crimp" is a much abused term and, in my opinion an overused reloading step.

Crimp was originally used in the BP days to keep the powder charge from actually pushing the boolit out of the case prior to it being fired.

Like many other ideas it was smply transposed to smokeless rounds when smokeless powders hit the market by the manufacturers.

This doesn't mean I think crimp a useless tool simply that crimping rounds, any round, isn't as "required" as reloading manuals, and "experts", might have you think.

Consistant boolit "pull", as the boolit exits the case, is much more important than the amount of crimp applied to the case.

We've all seen the 9mm and 40 threads where a newbie can't figure out his leading problem!
98% of the time the rounds are either over crimped ( I hate taper crimp dies) or over crimped and shoved into Lee's pistol version of the FCD die!

In almost all case's removal of the FCD die from the loading cycle and and a severe readjustment of the taper crimp die solves the problem.

Other issues, like boolits jumping from the case under recoil, are often "cured" by adding or increasing the amount of crimp.

Sadly this is just covering up poor boolit pull in most case's.

Crimping case's still has it's place in reloading and always will. Reloaders, both new and old, need to be aware you don't have to be able to see a crimp on a case from across the room!

I'll end my rambling remarks by saying the reloading hobby has been a never ending education for me, somethings I've learned the hard way others through converation with other reloaders.

This forum has been the best source of guidance and new ideas I've ever found and hope to see it continue for a long time.

[cbrick]

This should cause the grey matter to work over time regarding crimping. I did this crimp test several years ago, since this test I only apply enough crimp to assure bullets don't pull under recoil, no more. In long range revolver if the bullets pull under recoil each shot will shoot higher than the previous shot, how much higher will depend on how much the bullet pulled which could be enough to tie up the revolver.

Crimp Tests
FA 357 Mag 9”
RCBS 180 GC Silhouette @ 192 gr. (WW +2% Sn, convection oven HT @ 18 BHN)
16.0 gr. H-110
Winchester brass
CCI 550 primer
Temp 70 - Humidity 38%
All chrono tests 10 shots

1> My normal profile crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized.
E.S. 30
A.V. 1518
S.D. 9

2> Roll crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized.
E.S. 30
A.V. 1520
S.D. 9

3> No crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, very slight bell.
E.S. 30
A.V. 1528
S.D. 9

4> Light profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only.
E.S. 26
A.V. 1532
S.D. 8

5> My normal profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only.
E.S. 26
A.V. 1536
S.D. 8

Rick

[44man]

Yes, I have tested all crimps and zero crimps in a revolver by shooting single shot. All were about the same but a crimp is needed to help hold boolits under recoil in a tube magazine or with super recoil where rounds can have bullets forced deeper in a magazine bolt gun.
The ACP needs some taper crimp because bullets slam the front of the magazine, not because it is needed at the chamber.
I have shot a lot of factory .454's with unreal crimps where the last rounds tied up the cylinder from bullet pull yet my hand loads with far less crimp did not pull any boolit. Tension first. Crimp to hold under recoil.
If anyone thinks crimp alone assists powder burn, you need a different profession.

[mdi]

Interesting question that I have often thought of myself. I posed this same question on other forums and didn't get a definative answer. I've always read that a heavy roll crimp is needed to insure complete ignition of some powders, but wondered how much of my bullet was being scraped off by the crimp. 90% of my reloading had been .44 Magnum and lately all reloads have been with lead boolits, and I believe proper neck tension is needed also. I haven't tried any reloads w/o crimping.

So, from what I read in the above posts, yes the boolit pushes the crimp out of the way, and no the crimp does not open from case pressure. Is this correct?

[cbrick]

Tension first. Crimp to hold under recoil. If anyone thinks crimp alone assists powder burn, you need a different profession.

Precisely, look at the results of test 3 and compare with the other four tests all with various crimps. I think it's safe to say that crimp had nothing to do with powder burn in these tests but crimp is still important to prevent bullet pull.

I did these tests to see for myself how much crimp would effect the burn and uniformity. Surprise!

Rick

[44man]

Interesting question that I have often thought of myself. I posed this same question on other forums and didn't get a definative answer. I've always read that a heavy roll crimp is needed to insure complete ignition of some powders, but wondered how much of my bullet was being scraped off by the crimp. 90% of my reloading had been .44 Magnum and lately all reloads have been with lead boolits, and I believe proper neck tension is needed also. I haven't tried any reloads w/o crimping.

So, from what I read in the above posts, yes the boolit pushes the crimp out of the way, and no the crimp does not open from case pressure. Is this correct?
Correct, listen to Cbrick also. Both of us have done a large amount of testing. Nothing is from book reading.

[fecmech]

Heck, the primer alone pushes the bullet out of the case. Some years back I did a similar test to Cbricks with 2400 in the .357 between a heavy roll crimp and light taper crimp on 358429 in the .357 mag. Essentially same ballistics, SD and ES.

[geargnasher]

Good test, Rick, I think that should about settle it.

Randyrat, I tend to subscribe to Pascal's law and the Noble Gas laws. The pressure within a static system will be equal in all directions, although in a dynamic system pressure waves, eddies, and the Venturi effect can and do take place. What this means inside a cartridge case during a firing event is that pressure probably, and excluding pressure wave phenomena is about equal on the sides of the case and boolit base, so the case expands to the confines of the chamber at the same rate that the boolit moves. The brass expansion follows along the boolit base. Now if the resistance of the boolit to motion exceeded the elastic yeild point of the brass, there is a chance that the brass could expand before the boolit moves, and form a leak around the base band or gas check, which might continue to expand the brass away from the boolit before the boolit moves significantly. Dynamic pressure is at play here also, because the sudden rise in pressure as the powder ignites is more than any possible leak could vent in time; we usually don't see gas-cut boolits stuck in a revolver's throat, even with a squib load, so any gas leakage around the boolit is minimal at best, and if the boolit is a tight fit in the throats, the gas leakage stops as soon as the boolit moves enough fo the first driving surface to obturate the throat.

We've all seen smutty cases from undercharged loads, so we know the boolit can and does break the crimp, overcome static inertia, and static friction without the case expanding enough to seal the mouth to the chamber walls. That also supports my belief that it takes less pressure to move the boolit out of the case than it does to expand the case to the walls of the chamber, at least in many instances.

Throat leading still baffles me a bit, makes me think there is some gas-cutting going on before the boolit moves much, but it might just be abrasion. I've only had throat leading on a few occasions, and larger boolits or boolits that fit the ball seats better seemed to help eliminate it.

Gear

[randyrat]

Very big thanks for all the replies. Very interesting!

I did have a suspicion about how much crimp and all this talk about a heavy crimp. I myself believe( after ready all the replies) it is brass grip on the boolit all the way to the base is the key, not just a crimp "that you can see from across the room":-) I like that quote from "HeavyMetal" I find it a balancing act that I have to learn for each load/gun/boolit. Too much grip with a soft boolit is a misfit also, I agree.



geargnasher wrote= (We've all seen smutty cases from undercharged loads, so we know the boolit can and does break the crimp, overcome static inertia, and static friction without the case expanding enough to seal the mouth to the chamber walls. That also supports my belief that it takes less pressure to move the boolit out of the case than it does to expand the case to the walls of the chamber, at least in many instances.)
This used to puzzle me to all get out when it happed to me..then it would clear up with heavier loads.

[williamwaco]

Gearnasher
=================================================
We've all seen smutty cases from undercharged loads, so we know the boolit can and does break the crimp, overcome static inertia, and static friction without the case expanding enough to seal the mouth to the chamber walls. That also supports my belief that it takes less pressure to move the boolit out of the case than it does to expand the case to the walls of the chamber, at least in many instances.
=================================================


I shoot a lot of mild .38 special loads. Most of which produce this carbon smudging. This is not just carbon. It is a greasy mixture of bullet lube and powder residue. It it is black and thick and stickey and sometimes extends half way back to the case rim. It requires a solvent to remove effectively.

The point is that even with these low pressure loads that clearly do not expand the case enough to prevent gasses from escaping around the mouth of the case ( the crimp if you will ), the crimp is completely ironed out. No hint will remain that the mouth was crimped before firing.

That would seem to indicate to me that it is something other than gas pressure that removes the crimp. However, I don't see any evidence on recovered bullets or on the case mouth that the crimp has scraped any lead from the bullet. If the bullet was ironing out the crimp, I would expect to find some evidence on either the case mouth or the recovered bullets of the case scraping the sides of the bullet. If lead was scraped off the bullet and onto the case mouth, It is quite likely it would be blown away out the cylinder gap but that still doesn't explain the lack of scraping on the sides of the bullet - unless that scraping is erased by the passage through the bore. ( quite likely )

I wish I had a revolver with no barrel to fire a light load and recover the bullet which had not been through the bore and check it for evidence of ironing out the crimp.

Oh well. so many ideas and so little time.

[462]

Williamwaco, your post got me to thinking:
Why is it a pulled boolit, that was loaded using any kind of crimp, measures the same diameter as before it was loaded? (Given that the case mouth was properly expanded and the case or die was not down sizing the boolit.)

I've measured pulled boolits from revolver cartridges that had light and heavy roll crimps, and .45 ACP with just enough taper crimp to allow the cartridge to chamber. I don't recall the boolits measuring any smaller, nor the case mouths showing any signs of lead shavings.

Boolit alloys were no harder than straight wheel weights nor softer than 50/50 wheel weight/lead.

[geargnasher]

The boolit didn't shave lead when you seated it, why would it shave lead going out? Get your inertial puller, crimp some dummy rounds and start playing with pull. pay close attention to the point where the boolit just starts to break the crimp, do you see any metal "scraped" away? I doubt it, especially if you debur your cases. I know that the image is of the first band inside the case getting scraped off by the sharp edge of the crimp, but with decent boolit hardness it just doesn't work that way or we'd have far more trouble shooting cast boolits in revolvers than we do. The boolit irons out the crimp, not chamber pressure. If you want to do further testing, cast some pure lead slugs and stuff them in some cases, crimp, and observe what happens when they are pulled.

Gear

[williamwaco]

My entire life, it seems that every time I find an answer to a question, the answer poses two new questions.

I have considered always the theory that the bullet "irons out" the crimp but I thought if that is it, and there is not enough gas pressure to keep gas from leaking back past the crimp into the chamber, why doesn't the crimp spring back?

Taking Gear's advice, I tried it. Here is the result:
( You can zoom the photo by holding down the control key and rolling your mouse wheel forward.)


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_160664e7f728a28be7.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2225)

The crimp did spring back.

When loaded, the bullet measured .3565-.3567 After beng pulled, it measured .3563-.3565.

I know one pullet bullet doesn't prove anything. I am going to try a few more and get some more photos and measurements.

[Sonnypie]

I've set my dies to mimic the factory crimp, on my reloaded ammo.
So far it has proven to be consistent as I have progressed over to Cast Boolit loads.
I've been finding that my varying powder charges have had much more effect on my groupings.
Still working towards that "new" pet load for my cast boolits.
(But I am very pleased with my consistencies I am getting so far.)

How the crimp gets pressed back out I don't really ponder much. I don't see any signs of peeled lead, and the cases are always fire formed to my chambers.
To me, a light crimp is assurance the rounds will be consistent. The OAL holds the same even on rounds that have been in the magazine during firing, but removed.
Before I duplicated that slight factory crimp I found I could actually move the bullets in some of my cases.
So I adjusted the crimp.
All military ammo I have seen had a crimp on it.

But then... I am a simple man. ;)

[44man]

I never seen any peeled lead but once lead got too soft, the boolit would just be a little smaller. The case mouth just becomes a size die and if iron out, it should not "spring back." Various amounts of crimp might be seen depending on boolit and chamber diameter as long as the case opened enough for the boolit to fit through it. That will be small in any case.
If a lot of crimp is left and the chambers are snug, the entire boolit can be sized, not just the front drive band. A harder boolit is better then.

[fredj338]

The bullet does certainly remove the crimp, not the gas pressure. IMO, all handgun round need some crimp. The semiauto to remove any bell & insure reliable funcitoning in tight chambers, in rev to help prevent bullets creeping out of the cyl, especially heavy for caliber bullets & higher vel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Come on guys this is not that diffcult:

Crimps are used for several reasons. The main one is to hold the bullet in place during handling, and being banged around in the magazine. All military ammo is crimped. All factory ammo is crimped. It holds the bullet in place.

In Tubular Magazined rifles they prevent the bullet from being jammed into the case from magazine spring pressure or recoil. They also prevent bullets from being pulled by heavy recoil to some degree, called "jumping crimp" in big revolvers. IE big boomers or ones with snappy recoil. Note the direction of the crimp grooves on all our favorite pistol bullets. Kind of like a ratchet? allows movement one way but not the other.

IN the case of some black powder rounds the powder charge stopped the bullet from being pushed in, and the crimp on the ogive prevented the bullets from being pulled out, and there is no crimp groove at all. .44-40 is an example there.

When you fire a round the first thing that happens when the bullet starts to move is the crimp gets ironed out to the diameter of the bullet. This is a simple mechanical thing. You have a driving band that is full caliber directly behind the crimp groove which is usually tapered and must go past the crimp immediately as there is no other place for it to go, and the brass isn't strong enough to "skive" lead off a bullet especially when the sharp edge is in the direction away from the direction of travel.

It's not like the bullet just sits there for a while and doesn't move, as soon as the pressure builds up enough to overcome the case's tension on the bullet, It's gone, period. And it is gone in front of the majority of the gas. It's not like the case blows out and the bullet just sits there waiting for the "flow of the gas" to drag it along for the ride. Thats more like how a toilet works while flushing a turd!

People tend to forget that the bullet is still actually sealed in the throat of the cylinder, while the front half is in the barrel. Under ideal conditions there is no gas loss until the base of the bullet moves forward into the forcing cone. Even then the gas loss is minimal as the path of least resistance favors the path of the bullet which is nearing its highest velocity as it reaches the end of the barrel. IN short the hole in the barrel is bigger than the cylinder gap so the vast majority of the gas goes that way. It kind of works like a cork in a champagne bottle. The cork is long gone before the brew starts spewing forth.

The crimp on an auto loader holds the bullet in place as it's primary function. In this case, case grip is more about the interference fit between the bullet and case than the crimp. Auto pistol bullets generally don't have crimp grooves. The case is squished into the bullet making it's own crimp groove. Obviously it gets sized by the bullet as it leaves as there is no other palce for the crimp to go.

Roll crimps do increase the "pull" on the bullet, and as a result they do require that the charge develope more pressure before the bullet starts to move. All powders have specific pressure ranges that they burn most efficiently in. Holding onto the bullet a little tighter helps higher pressure powders function better. H110/296 is a good example of a powder that does better with a good crimp.

There is a specific SAAMI case mouth diameter for the taper crimp on all autoloader cartridges. This case mouth diameter is a compromise between bullet/ case mouth tension and having enough rim exoposed to pick up the front of the chamber. If you have too much taper crimp the round will not fire because it will be forced too far into the chamber for the firing pin to reach.

For the .45 ACP it is .470, and for the .40S&W it is .418. this is the correct amount of crimp for those two cartridges. I only know these becasue I load them and I check these numbers frequently.

Many people donot crimp rifle cartridges, the reasoning is that it is not required to hold the bullet in place. Fine, unless it is a Garand or something that beats the rounds in the magazine severly then you need a crimp, once again, to keep the bullet in place.

Bench rest guys never crimp. their bullets are held in the cases with very light neck tensions. They don't need to crimp because they are handling thier ammuntion very carefully. Also Single shot rifles can get away without a crimp.

So in closing, the crimp is used mainly to prevent the bullet from becoming dislodged. It can have a positive effect of the burning of certain powders. Case crimps are ironed out immediately upon the movement of the bullet, and that's just about all there is too it.

I crimp every round I load, it's a good thing.

Randy

[randyrat]

I meant the question to be a little bit provocative in nature to stir up a good conversation.

I do understand what it is and why to have a crimp, but do we really know what opens up that crimp. The pressure curve inside a fired case is at a speed that is incomprehensible to me. The initial peak of explosion or expansion of gasses are quicker than a bullet, so it made me think.
I agree, forward motion is most likely how the crimp is opened. I should quite thinking out loud, but that's no fun.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Randy: the whole event occurs in "Milliseconds" but that doesn't mean it can't be reduced to slow motion. The bullet only goes one way, the rest is just simple mechanics. Nothing magic about it.

This type of discussion is how people learn stuff, and not only about technical things, they also learn to interact and to extract information from more knowledgeable individuals that used take their knowledge and life experience to the grave.

Do you have any idea how far we would be technologically if there was a usable encyclopedia of every person's experiences for the last 2000 years? Hell the destruction of the Library at Alexandria by fire probably put us back 500-1000 years alone.

That's exactly what these forums accumulate and catalog. Vast stores of knowledge and wisdom, and they make it easy enough so that many can contribute.

I have learned more about casting boolits , (something I thought I had figured out pretty well), in the last 6 months than in my preceeding 60+ years.

All from this one source!

Randy

[cbrick]

Roll crimps do increase the "pull" on the bullet, and as a result they do require that the charge develope more pressure before the bullet starts to move. All powders have specific pressure ranges that they burn most efficiently in. Holding onto the bullet a little tighter helps higher pressure powders function better. H110/296 is a good example of a powder that does better with a good crimp. Randy

Perhaps but that sure makes it difficult to explain test #3 below. Compare the velocities, extreme spreads and SD of 5 different crimps including NO crimp at all using H-110.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet is bullet weight, the heavier the bullet the more resistance to help get the powder buring. In these tests the crimp didn't make a lick of difference regarding the burn and probably no small part of the reason is bullet weight.




Crimp Tests
FA 357 Mag 9”
RCBS 180 GC Silhouette @ 192 gr. (WW +2% Sn, convection oven HT @ 18 BHN)
16.0 gr. H-110
Winchester brass
CCI 550 primer
Temp 70 - Humidity 38%
All chrono tests 10 shots

1> My normal profile crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized.
E.S. 30
A.V. 1518
S.D. 9

2> Roll crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized.
E.S. 30
A.V. 1520
S.D. 9

3> No crimp, second firing of WW brass, Carbide die sized, very slight bell.
E.S. 30
A.V. 1528
S.D. 9

4> Light profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only.
E.S. 26
A.V. 1532
S.D. 8

5> My normal profile crimp, virgin WW brass, not sized, not expanded, slight bell only.
E.S. 26
A.V. 1536
S.D. 8

Rick


Precisely, look at the results of test 3 and compare with the other four tests all with various crimps. I think it's safe to say that crimp had nothing to do with powder burn in these tests but crimp is still important to prevent bullet pull.

I did these tests to see for myself how much crimp would effect the burn and uniformity. Surprise!

Rick

[fecmech]

Roll crimps do increase the "pull" on the bullet, and as a result they do require that the charge develope more pressure before the bullet starts to move. All powders have specific pressure ranges that they burn most efficiently in.

I would respectfully disagree, bullet pull due to sizing and expansion diameter is where it's at. Along with Cbricks posts here is the data from a 2400 load I did some time back with 12.5/2400/358429/Federal case and prime. Loads were fired out of a Rossi 20" carbine in 10 shot strings.

Light taper crimp-1662 FPS average,51 fps extreme spread,14 fps standard deviation

Heavy roll crimp-1657 FPS average,54 fps extreme spread,15 fps S.D.

As you can see there is no difference in the ballistics of the two loads

[W.R.Buchanan]

Rick: It has always seemed there was less unburned powder kernals with a crimp. But that's pretty subjective.

You know as well that when the round fires the pressure generated miliseconds after ingition will easily overcome any crimp instantly, and bullet tension in the case may require more force to overcome than the crimp, in which case the crimps effects would be inconsiquential. So the difference may not even be measurable. It may show up some where else.

In your tests there was a difference in average of 8 FPS. If the crimp was holding onto the bullet only enough to make an 8 fps difference Then it's effects are pretty minimal with respect to velocity. That's about .5%. Have you ever noticed that with a heavy roll crimp the case can bulge out a little just below the crimp? This would decrease bullet tension.

The reasoning on the overall effects of crimp may be flawed in the general mindset. Maybe the only issue that matters is holding the bullet in place. Since I haven't done tests like yours, and I must say you did a great job conducting them, my only reference previous to this discussion is the volumns I've read by those that do alot of this.

Believe me. I don't take EVERYTHING they say as gospel as I have found inconsistancies in their writings over periods of time.

A friend gave me 30 years of gun mags, 8 legal sized boxes worth!, and I have read virtually everything several of our contempary authorities have written over the years. Only two,,,Mike Venturino and Brian Pearce, have been consistant throughout .

I don't know either one has ever done a comparison test on this subject similar to what you did, and the reason may be that with the rounds tested you would never use them without a crimp in virtually any circumstance. So maybe they never looked at it from this perspective.

Maybe they just took what the ammo and powder manufactures did or said as the gospel reasons for needing the crimp, and thus never did their own tests to confirm.

I do know both have written about crimp many times. In fact I just received my back issues #236 and 237 Aug and Oct 05 of Handloader mag and have been devouring them.

#237 has an article by B Pearce on Bullet Seating and Crimping pg 18 He states that (and I paraphrase) "magnum pistol cartridges using slow burning powders (H110)are best served by a heavy crimp, and give more consistant pressures and lower extreme spreads compared to bullets seated with light crimps. and on and on.

The majority of the article discusses bullet pull which appears to be much more significant an factor than crimp

This guy's opinions have been formed behind "Hundreds of Empirical tests" he has conducted, and literally hundreds of thousands of rounds fired over many years. He also has direct access to manufacturers, and many ballistic labs. My point is he can be very thourough.

Virtually everything I have ever read has concurred with this mindset.

If you don't have these copies, and I got them specifically for the indepth articles on loading .44 Spec. and mid range .44 mag. articles by Mr Pearce, I would suggest you take the plunge and order them. This guy is very thourough to say the least, and I would extend my praise to include the statement that if you only had his loading data for whatever cartridge you loaded for, you would probably be able to do just about anything you ever wanted.

Maybe on a different day your tests would have revealed something completely different , I know that tests I've done have not always repeated the next day. Maybe there were other hidden variables that affected the tests.

Over years of accumulating data you can formulate a much broader picture of that which you seek to understand, mainly because your knowledge of the possible variables expands with experience.

Randy

[cbrick]

No need to sell Handloader to me, I have every issue ever published in paper up until about 10 years ago when I started collecting them on DVD. Also every issue right from 1966 on DVD.

Most things I test are repeated several times. A one time test of anything ballistics is much like a one shot chrono test, at best a very vague idea of what could be.

Rick

[W.R.Buchanan]

Rick: My all time favorite issue is Aug 07 the issue with the desertation on loading the .45-70. There is more useful info on loading that cartridge than in all of my other reloading manuals combined. there is also a bunch on loading pistol rounds for rifles and some other stuff as well.

My new back issues of #236&#237 have essentially the same depth of coverage for the .44 spc and midrange .44 mag.

The articles on loading for service rifles and cast loading of same by Venturino pretty much cover every aspect of what I load.

I'm probably going to buy a Handloader binder and a Rifle binder specifically to put my most relavant issues of each into. The rest are relagated to the bathroom. where they get read over and over.

I don't feel you can totally grasp the information in a technical article in one reading. I have commented on this point many times here. You must read and re-read many times to extract all of the meaning, and really those that don't, miss out on half of what is written.

I think they call this studying?

I will ask for the DVD of the Complete Works for Christmas!

Randy

[357shooter]

This thread would make a great sticky.

[cbrick]

I will ask for the DVD of the Complete Works for Christmas! Randy

That's what I did, got a couple hundred off at the SHOT Show a few years ago. After you get the full set they send out a notice for a sale price on the previous years DVD in about November.

Rick

[Sonnypie]

The trigger removes the crimp.
If you don't move the trigger, nothing happens. :bigsmyl2:

> > > Turns and runs for the parking lot > > > > > [smilie=p:

I scored my first WW's today! Got 4.5 pounds smelted out. 136.95 Boolits worth.

So I'm feeling pretty frisky! I thought you guys had them all sown up.

[303Guy]

I used to shoot a 22 Hornet a lot. What's that got to do with crimping? Well, it's that crazy powder, Lil'Gun. With lighter bullets the powder doesn't burn consistently so shooters would crimp the necks and use small pistol primers. The idea is to prevent the bullet moving during firing of the primer, thus giving the powder to begin its pressure rise before the bullet moves, thus maintaining a consistent ignition environment. (I took a different approach and used a heavier bullet with no tension at all. That and more powder).

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes Rick Maybe I'll do that at the Shot Show in Jan. I thought about it last year and they did have adeal but I bought Venturinos book on Leverguns, and Propellant Proflies instead.

The book on Leverguns is a pretty good read , the Propellant Porfiles book is pretty dry reading and gets old pretty fast. You have to really want to know about a specific powder to suffer thru several articles about the same powder. It's a good reference book. I kind of felt obligated as Scoville spent 40 minutes explaining "pressure burn ratio" to me.

Randy

[cbrick]

:hijack:

Propellant Profiles is a great reference volume but I can't imagine anyone reading it through like a regular book. Have that as a paper book and on DVD also.

I'll probably be at the SHOT Show in January also, was going last year but managed to break my knee in December and by the show in January it was tough just getting to the toilet much less the show.

A few years ago at the show I was supposed to meet up with Rocky Raab for breakfast but got tied up with friends and didn't make it. I'll try to set that up with him this time.

Back to the "crimp".

Rick

[randyrat]

W.R. Buchanan: I figured i was an idiot for the longest time:-D because I re read articles over and over and find new things about them. Thank god I'm not the only one to read articles more than once.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Randy" No,,, you are one of the ones who realizes that he needs to read and re-read to get the full load of info contained in most technical articles.

Thinking that you got all of the intended meaning out of any written work longer than one paragraph on one read thru, is downright arrogant. I know no one personally who can duplicate written material 100%, and very few that can even assimilate 50%.

My typing is abismal so I have to read and re-read things I write on here many times, mainly for typos. I also end up doing it just to make sure that my meaning is fully articulated, and that I fully cover all my thoughts on the topic. I also restructure sentences that don't read very well with different verbage specifically so that my meaning can be understood more easily and by more readers.

You have a responsibility to try to convey your ideas in as clear and concise a terms that are available to you when you write something. This doesn't mean you have to get out the dictionary and comb thru it for the right words for every circumstance. It means you should be talking to people thru your words like you would talk to them in person. How many times have you had to correct people who didin't understand what you said, and wanted to kick your **** instead.

One problem with writing is that you have to do this so MANY people can understand what you say. This makes choosing your words a little more critical.

The whole Idea is to transfer and idea or phrase to the other person, and have them duplicate exactly what you said , your exact meaning, and your exact context. Only then have you succeeded at communicating.

Politicians are really big on exploiting these factors of speech, and use them to cornfuse people buy saying they didn't say this or that, or saying someone else said such and such, thus reassigning the context to suit their cause. You have an excelent opportunity to watch this in action just about every night on TV! Learning to call BS! when someone lies, is the key to the Intelligent vote! They all do it.

Here is the best "HOT TIP" I can give you. If you get to the end of a paragraph and you don't have any idea what you just read. You need to go back to where you did know what you were reading, and find the word you didn't understand. Only then, can you proceed and understand further ideas being put forth.

When you are talking about something that can blow you up like reloading ammunition, understanding all the words is kind of important. [smilie=w:

Randy

[josper]

There you guys go giving me something else to worry about,LOL. I have been putting a good factory crimp on all my 45-70 loads but don't seem to see a negitive result from it. I was lead to believe that a good crimp on a 45-70 round was needed to get uniform results.Also to keep heavy recoil from driving the boolit back in the case? I also crimp my 40 s&w rounds for the same reason and I havn't noticed an increase in leading.I'm not disputing anything you guys are saying just that I am not having any issues .My main worry with the 40 is I have read that if the boolit creaps back deeper in the case you might be running the risk of a kaboom.Thats my reason for the crimp.

[armoredman]

I guess I am the odd man out. Been using the Lee FCD on all bullets for years, and when I started casting, I just naturally used it there, too. No issues.
I go for a moderate to light crimp on all rounds loaded, rifle or handgun.