SO, I want to build a Rifle

[greywuuf]

or more accurately I want to build my very first muzzle loader. Being that I am a bit eccentric, and I come from the rocky mountain states and reside in Alaska I have a very particular type of Rifle in mind.

I want a Hawken and I want Flinter. I don't mind wood butchering and I like metal finishing but I dont really know anything about the real mechanics of a ML. I really want to do this, only I dont know where to start. Can I order a barrel and a lock and then a stock blank ? do I need to get it all from one place ?

Some one point me in the correct direction Please ?

[LUCKYDAWG13]

DIXIE GUN WORKS
would be the first place that i would look

[troy_mclure]

i looked into it. there are many levels of "kits" you can buy.

from all white metal parts, and rough finished stock, to an assemble and shoot kit.

it just depends on how much you are comfortable doing.

another good place is track of the wolf .com

[greywuuf]

Excellent site both, thank you.

Ok if I wanted to say piece one together on my own ... how do I decide things like which action, and hooked breach ? whats that and why,
I kinda need a crash course on the history and state of Muzzle loading, I mean I HATE being interested in something and not knowing anything about it. I read the adds and say uh huh, uh huh uh huh , but none of the "bullet points' and features mean anything to me yet .

Can a guy buy a barrel from a Muzzle loader equivalent of say Shillen and mate it to a breach plug ( is that a word .. are they part of the barrel) and who are the players are their different "vent" style types and locations, how does one match them to the Lock ? are locks and breaches matched ?

sheesh why do I get so ate up about new projects so easily ?

[waksupi]

I have built a couple hundred muzzle loaders over the years. I can tell you that the Hawken type rifle is by far the hardest you will attempt to put together. I have avoided them as much as possible. You would be better off starting with a flint Pennsylvania type, if building from scratch. If you can find one of the Lyman Great Plains kits, I would recommend that one to try. You should be able to do that fairly easy, but doing a scratch build takes some experience.

[greywuuf]

but , but , but , oh heck I truly HATE the looks of a full stock , always have, even (especially?) on cartridge guns. bleh I can honestly say that were I to attempt to build a back east mouse gun I would likely Never finish it as I have less than zero desire to own one.

I appreciate your advice and can well understand it but I just have to NOT take it .
Actually I kinda DON'T understand it how can the forestock actually affect the build difficulty of a rifle ? I would think it would be just that much more in letting that you would have to do? I am not doubting you, I have seen that same admonishment in print other places, but can you tell me why ? is it simply the ram rod ferrules and fidly fitting like that that is the hard part ? I am WAY more afraid of stock work and inletting than I am of metal work.

Confused

[waksupi]

It has nothing to do with the fore stock, under rib, and ferrules. The hard part is getting the tang, trigger bar and guard, lock, and vent in proper relation to each other. Bugger one up, and they are all buggered out of position. Look at one close, you will see what I mean.

In my opinion, a flint Hawken should be a full stock, too, as that was what the originals were. The first deer I shot in Montana years back was with an original Hawken full stock, that had been converted from flint to cap.


but , but , but , oh heck I truly HATE the looks of a full stock , always have, even (especially?) on cartridge guns. bleh I can honestly say that were I to attempt to build a back east mouse gun I would likely Never finish it as I have less than zero desire to own one.

I appreciate your advice and can well understand it but I just have to NOT take it .
Actually I kinda DON'T understand it how can the forestock actually affect the build difficulty of a rifle ? I would think it would be just that much more in letting that you would have to do? I am not doubting you, I have seen that same admonishment in print other places, but can you tell me why ? is it simply the ram rod ferrules and fidly fitting like that that is the hard part ? I am WAY more afraid of stock work and inletting than I am of metal work.

Confused

[greywuuf]

ok....
but why is getting all of that right easier on one style than another.?

I am assuming that all guns will have a lock and a vent and a trigger bar and guard ?
So i know I sound like an idiot but I just don't get what I am missing. and I will completely understand if you just tell me to go do my homework or don't feel like explaining it.

I am still of the mind that there is ONLY one style I am interested in and I am not looking to become a builder, and I am not going to build two or three for practice I just Want one... but I am too cheap to buy one outright. So if I am to have one it will be kit form, or piece at a time. most likely the latter as I don't usually drop that much all at once on projects to buy a kit.

EDIT for ignorance,

I see now that the Hawken type has through bolts if you will, the upper tang and the lower trigger guard are held with common hardware and I also see mention that the lock plates need to be fitted to the breach plug, and further they are not Parallel, but rather taper from front to back interesting. Track of the wolf has what I am looking for and it looks as though I can do it piecemeal, i think it is worth investing in some of the literature. As I seem to have committed all of my current funding to group buy molds... I guess a book or two for research sounds like about the right thing to do.

thanks for the hints leads and info
Dan

[C.F.Plinker]

The easiest kit is probably the Lyman Great Plains rifle. It comes in either .50 or .54 caliber and either percussion or flint in both calibers. they are Hawken style half stock rifles and a lit of the stock shaping and inletting has already been done. You have to do the final fitting shaping sanding etc.

For your reading start or at least include "Recreating the American Longrifle" by Buchele, Shumway, and Alexander. While the designs are for rifles of an earlier period than you are interested in, there is a wealth of infromation about the nuts, bolts, locks, triggers, sights, and the other pieces and parts you will be working with and how to assemble them into your finished rifle. Muzzleloadingforum.com has a builders subforum that you may want to browse through if you haven't already done so.

[StrawHat]

After being disappointed with DGW, I found these folks not too far from me, (but a long ways from you.)

http://www.logcabinshop.com/index-2.html

The Kindigs know there stuff and keep many builders supplied with parts. I would echo Waksupi's comments about the Hawken and add that the hook breech is a pain to do properly. A fixed breech is a bit easier but the Hawken tang is still going to be a problem, the stock geometry needs to be correct or it doesn't look right. Also, a fixed breech rifle will be a bit more accurate. Unless you plan on removing the barrel from the stock frequently, you would be better served with a fixed breech.

My personal favorite rifle is a flint halfstock, made in West Virginia, but certainly not a back east mouse gun as you seem to think of eastern rifles. Mine is a Harpers Ferry 1803 rifled musket in the incorrect 58 caliber. It hits with authority and is fairly easy to carry. All the Hawkens I have built or handled seem clunky by comparison (which is possibly why I don't build them anymore.)

But, it is your choice and your money. The Great Plains rifle is a good kit and a good rifle. There are a few others out there but that is certainly the most commonly available. Good luck and keep us posted on your build.

[flounderman]

you would be better off getting a roughly formed blank than cutting one from a plank. same goes for any stock job if you are not experienced at it.

[docone31]

I very much wanted to make an Hawken Rifle. I got all the books, tools, etc. I figuired, if I went slow enough, I could make everything fit.
Well, it never worked well. Everything was a little off.
I got an Italian Hawken, and then I got a steel furniture kit from the Hawken shop. I inletted the parts. It worked well! I got some experience. I started adding furniture. Little enletting jobs. It worked, and made the rifle look a little better than it did. I then made a toeplate. I got an actual trigger guard and set triggers. I made it work. It looked a little better
I then got another "kit". Even inlayed, they have alignment issues. I have wondered if it would be better to just get a piece of wood then start making chips. I am sure the wood was not warped when they cut it, but it sure was warped when I got it.
Lots of little things like that.
It takes a touch, and the tough comes with experience. My hat is off to a person who has acquired the skill. They are works of art!
I am still at it. One day....
I do enjoy it though.

[Czech_too]

Right now I'm in somewhat of a similar position, in that I want to do my first build, but it will hopefully be a English saw handle target pistol.

I'm currently reading, and trying to absorb, "Custom Muzzleloading Rifles" by Troy Bridges and "How" by Cowher, Hunley & Johnston. Both of these books are a worthwhile read IMO.

Good Luck on the build

[greywuuf]

Hmm I did say stock blank, to me that is one of them Almost finished needs some sanding and fitting deals, no way this wood butcher could start with a board. not my thing and I have no delusions of being able to do that.

Not saying that Gunsmithing is easy or Like anything else, but I have done some ( not professionally) and I know guns well ( in general) I have been a professional engine builder and I used to build a LOT of stroker Aircooled motors. I am well familiar with all manner of hand fitting, metal removal clearancing alignment and other issues.

I am seriously considering Going with track of the wolf and building either a bridge (more likely ) or a Carson Hawken. I would still rather have a flinter ( yeah i know half stocked hawken flinters are a myth) but honestly this little town has ONE store that carries percusion caps ... some times. special order takes 4 forevers as any "Hazmat" can't come truck freight through or foreign country so it ends up going BARGE and then truck once it gets in state ( two haz mat fee's)

anyway, thank you all for the insight and heads up.

PS Strawhat, I was looking at a couple of Harpers Ferry half stocks on some Museum pages last night, interesting option....

One last point though, is not building a custom rifle a labor of love ? ( lust obsession what have you ) and if you start with one that does not "trip your trigger" so to speak is it really some thing you want to be doing ?

I am pretty sure I have Found what I want, time will tell if I am up to the task.

[Dean D.]

I would add my recommendation on the Lyman Great Plains kit. It sounds very much like what you are looking for Graywuuf. I bought mine finished, a .54 flinter, and it shoots well. For the price it is a nice gun. At the time I bought mine MidwayUSA had the best price but that was 2 years ago.

I built my .54 Lancaster from a TOW kit, it was my first build. I can tell you that from that experience I would shy away from a Hawken build as my first try. Hooked breach if nothing else will present challenges.

Good luck on whatever route you decide to take!

[greywuuf]

Benz, Thank you for the pictures,
I have made my decision, I get some cash this week and I am going to go ahead with TOW and I am going to go ahead with a half stock Hawk. I can at least get all of the parts that are designed to go together, it will just be up to me to make them be in the right relation to one another.

You would not happen to have a line on anymore Benz Diesel's would you? I seriously need a 5 banger for my 404 MoG.

[docone31]

Go slow, take time, and JB Weld can fix a variety of oopsies. Looks ok when it is sanded in also.
Good luck.
What caliber?

[waksupi]

Go slow, take time, and JB Weld can fix a variety of oopsies. Looks ok when it is sanded in also.
Good luck.
What caliber?

Fishhawk recommends Bondo! :)

[greywuuf]

Meh as far as JB weld, I always figure in for a penny in for a pound. When I screw up metal I reach for the TIG welder and REALLY mess stuff up then. And Bondo? I won't even use that on my cars, I am a soldered seam kinda guy. I have had to use bondo on my composite boats and model aircraft.

Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk

[docone31]

I never liked using Bondo. Polyester and cold weather does not mix well. JB Weld has iron in the mix. To fill SMALL divots in the inletting, JB does the trick.
I also use my wife's lipstick for inletting Red. I just remove the red dot each time.
In time, it all comes together.
Good luck on your rifle. Personally, I like full stocks. I like the way they handle.

[greywuuf]

As far as Caliber, hmmm
More is better right ? well ok I am not sure, I was thinking I might go 50 thinking I could PP projectiles from other 50 centerfires i have, but if a 50 ML is like the small 50 ( .500 - .502) then that wont work. and if it wont share projectiles with anything else I might as well go big right ?
Any suggestions on caliber ?

I am likely not going to hunt with it, but if I do end up liking that much, it will most likely be Moose ( big 1000 pound plus ones ) that I hunt with it, so I am guessing something largish is going to be the final answer. 54 58 ? 62 ?

[docone31]

Sounds like you are .54 candidate.
A little larger then a .50.
Waaaay back when, they were .52 caliber. They got "freshed" out to .54 or larger. Molds were made to fit the rifle.
Good luck.

[greywuuf]

Well we all know that the name of the caliber and what the bores and or grooves measured were sometimes two different things. So what did an original "50" measure in at ( I mean generally) and the 52/54 was that a bore or a groove and what about now ? what bore is a 50 and also a 54 ? are you saying I can patch a 50 projectile ( .512) up to fit a 54 ?

Man this is just twisting my brain.

I have also been thinking maybe instead of spending the money on a rifle as a first go.. I might Do a big hawken horse pistol, this would at least be correct as a Flinter

here is one I think is kinda pretty http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/gunKit.aspx?catId=13&subId=77&styleId=300&partNum=HAWKEN-PISTOL-FULLSTOCK-FLINT-PARTS-LIST

Less money to get into, still would be used to learn to shoot a ML and almost all of the issues of building a full length Hawken

[docone31]

Well, a .50 is a .490, or .495 ball, with ticking. A .54 is corresponding in ratio.
A .52, was what they called a .50. It was a good .52 though. When they "freshed" the barrel, they reamed them out, then recut rifleing. I had a chance to see an original rifleing machine. The family still had it. They would have given it to me, but I was on my motorcycle. There was little if any interest back then.
When the bore got shot out, they recut the rifleing. Seems simple enough.
Smokepoling ain't like carrying a pocket full of cartridges and slamming the bolt home. It in itself is an art form.
Seems, folks either hang them over a mantle, or take them out. They are either hands on, or
"what is that on your mantle?"
Enjoy the ride. It lasts a lifetime.

[Dean D.]

Call Track on those parts, to make sure there in stock, or you could be waiting for awhile ...

EXTREMELY good advice. Ask me how I know :popcorn: :veryconfu

[pulaski]

Greywuuf .
If the hooked breech is your route , there is an easier way to align the breech and hook .
You'll need a jig to set this up . Sweat weld the hook and breech together and fit as if it were a one piece tang and breech .
You will have to unsweat these later , but not all that difficult .
This is not the easiest build to start with (as stated by others ) but I would give it a go .
Steve

[Swede44mag]

Find a good DVD on building a Black Powder Rifle I bought a couple online.
It will keep you from making some mistakes.

Good luck

[greywuuf]

SO was "Bubba" around in the mid 1800's?
I am thinking "sporterized" full stock flinter....... Cut down to a half stock

[greywuuf]

one more thing, lock quality seems to be one of the magor factors in ones enjoyment of a flinter .....
how are the large Silers? would that be a quality piece to start with. Anything anyone else would prefer ?

[KCSO]

I built my first Hawken in 1973 and made just about every mistake I could make on it, but I learned from expirience. I built my first muzzleloader in 1960 from the steering rod of a 1940 Ford and a chunk of walnut wood from the woodpile. Since them I have built a good number of guns and worked on and rebuilt a good many more. IF you want to start with a Hawken first read Bairds books so you know what they should look like and get a feel for the form and function. If you can still find any of the book of buckskinning seriese they have good articles
for the first time builder. I have to go along with Waksupi on this one as getting a hawken RIGHT is a tough job. It's kinda like you posted I want to build a car, where do I start?

Now if I were in your shoes I would be looking at a 90% inletted kit from Track or Pecatonica or such. This is going to put you in it at about $500 for the parts and I would also get the blueprints with the kit. Then when you have the kit all together in the white you can start worrying about sanding staiining and metal finish. Just keep asking as you go along.

As I write I have a barrel in the browning cabinet and I have a flint pistol on the bench under the knife.

[greywuuf]

I am looking at a 90% kit from track, and it is more like $6-700 and i still would not be getting what I want.
I dont intend to build an action on my anvil from sheets of wrought iron, nor do I plan on bulding a rifling table and turning out my own barrel, and I am not going to wax cast or hammer out all of the fittings. I am looking more at taking a group of demonstrated good quality parts and then hand fitting them into a workable representation of a rifle.

I am pretty sure Bubba is going to hit the history channel, because I AM going to have a half stock flinter in Hawken Style. I am just trying to decide wheather to retro fit a caplock to a flint or retrofit a half stock to a full stock flinter.

thinking seriously about sporterizing a 42" full stock .. though it seems a shame to waste that much hardwood this day in age.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Yes, the Siler is a good lock, not sure if it goes with a Hawkin, I'm no expert, call Jim Chambers at the website in my first post with the pictures, the one of the "mouse gun"! he makes some of the best locks ...

[waksupi]

Siler is good, but no way will it fit the lock inlet for a pre-inlet Hawken.

[StrawHat]

Here is a Hawken I built years ago, possibly in the 70s. Lots wrong with it and easily seen if you know what to look for.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/50Hawken001.jpg

The wrist is the wrong geometry, the buttplate is the same. The triggerguard is poorly let because of the wrist geometry. Heck, the more I look, the more I see.

Here is the Harpers Ferry. When I got it, the wrist was broken so I carved a new stock for it and refinished the parts.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/1803HarpersFerry001.jpg

As for caliber, a lot will depend on the rifling twist. If you get a barrel with a slow twist, you will be shooting round balls and the bigger the better. I like 54, 58 and 62 caliber rifled roundball guns. The smaller balls lack the weight I like for penetration.

[greywuuf]

Thank you all for the info. Enough links and facts were given to point me. towards my continued learning.
Later this week or maybe next week when parts begin arriving I will post a new thread with my project. I would tell you here what I had decided to do, but I don't know yet, some of it will depend on the in stock situation when I push the add to cart button.

Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk

[odis]

You might consider the Lehman flint from TOW for a first build, I did the Bivins 1770 for my first build far easier than a hawken and it took me a year to do and it does'nt look all that good but it shoots very good. The Siler is not a correct lock for a Hawken.

[excess650]

I see that you're pretty intent upon the Hawken style, but there are some other things to consider. The crescent buttplate isn't very shoulder friendly and combined with a large bore wouldn't be much fun. With a halfstock you have the under ribs to deal with, and the Hawkens have the long tangs to reinforce the wrist. The barrels are usually pretty heavy because of being straight rather than tapered or swamped.

Most MLer barrels are cut with twist for shooting patched round balls. 1-48" for 50 or 58 cal was a compromise twist that would shoot PRBs or conicals, but conicals work probably should have even faster twist. Large game can be taken with PRBs, but larger game really should have larger calibers. I have .45, .50, .58 and .62. I've shot a .69cal Jaeger and the guy who owns it loves it. IMO, .45 is pretty light for all but small deer. I would want at least my .58 for ventilating a moose with a PRB.

My first MLer was a CVA Mountain Rifle kit gun when I was a teenager. It was OK and I really preferred it to the TC Hawkens. I've since had a variety of MLers, and handled many contemporary and original. My opinion is that the early flinters had the best architecture. That is to say not much drop in the stock, wide, almost flat buttplates, and longish barrels that were "swamped" to lessen their weight. This combination makes for a lightweight rifle that minimizes recoil for large calibers and points and carries like a dream. Early Lancaster, early Virginia, Christian Springs, etc are of this variety. If you don't want a longrifle (37"+ barrel) you might want to consider its predecessor, the Jaeger. TOW or Petaconica will generally list these with 31" swamped barrels in up to 62cal. The tapered and flared octagon to round barrels offer another option in building an early style rifle.

You need to be aware that not all stock patterns will have lock panels large enough to accept locks like Chamber's round face English or Virginia, or the Jaeger. Too, smaller locks will look out of place on largish stocks.

I think $$ spent for a Petaconica kit or TOW kit will give you your best chance of building a good serviceable rifle since they supply the parts for each style. If you were to handle an early Lancaster, Transitional (Christian Springs) or Jaeger I think you would be enlightened as to what a flinter should be.