What is on/in these ingots?

[bld451]

Hi Fellers,

You guys have given me a lot of good info over the years. I figured I'd better join in the fray. First experience was a great one. Did a trade with Geargnasher, and got my stuff (which was first rate) sooner than expected. I'll have to figure out where to give feedback.

At any rate, I have some ingots that were cast a few years ago. I went to stamp ID them the other day and noticed they didn't look that good. I assume the white powder I saw growing on them is lead oxide? The troubling thing is the nasty scale on the top of a few ingots. It looks like dross of some kind formed by pouring with a dirty ladle. Some of the ingots look silvery and very pretty, but some look awful. I'll try to include some photos. I tried the 20% baume muriatic acid test on both a zinc weight and the ingots with this "dross" stuff. When I tested the lead, it was not either end of the spectrum of reactions. The zinc fizzled and hissed with fast gas production, while the ingots didn't do much of anything when I applied the acid to the cleaner portion of the lead. When I put the acid on the dirty part of the ingots, it kind of sat there, but there were some small pinhead size bubbles produced at a slow to moderate rate in the acid puddle. I'm trying to figure wht this stuff could be. I assume other organic materials will outgas when exposed to muriatic acid.

My smelting procedure was to use a turkey fryer and 16 qt dutch oven. I load the pot over the top with WW, and it seems to settle down to quite a bit less than a full pot. Then I skim clips when it is melted, and flux with Frankford Arsenal Cleancast. I haven't been letting the stuff get charred and crunchy before I skim. Seems to be a mess of wet flux sometimes. (sticks to the ladle) Then I ladle into ingots.

Is there a risk of the top (unmelted) weights pushing a zinc weight down into an overtemp puddle, or do the unmelted weights effectively regulate the temp? Sometimes I have to push pretty hard on the top of the pile to get the unmelties down through the clips into the pool. Is it bad practice to just load up the pot all at once? Should I let the flux burn up more? (I think I intend to use sawdust in the future, but should I still use the FA stuff?)

I guess this is all to say that I suspect it may be leftover Cleancast flux on top, but are the little bubbles in the test anything to worry about?

Thanks all, I'll sit back and try to absorb some wisdom.

BLD451

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_204334e7c099981b67.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2196)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_204334e7c09f9e21b0.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2197)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_204334e7c0a29ad996.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2198)

Ok, how do I load pics that we can SEE in the post? :o)

[bld451]

OK, noob check. I can see them now.

[fryboy]

zinc can melt with the smelt if the temp is hot enough, ibelow 700 F no worries , above 700F and it's possible
have no idea how "cleancast" reacts to the test , it does tend to draw moisture tho and that could cause oxidization , nor do i know if you got it all off/out , sawdust,wax,motor oil etc is more along the lines of what i use for flux , next time you smelt make sure you warm your ladle etc up before sticking it in the smelt ( that retaining/draw moisture thing )

[bld451]

Hi Wayne,

Yeah, I got a pretty good spray the first time I tried to just stick the ladle in the melt. Won't be doing THAT again. Thanks for the info!

Brent

[badbob454]

:coffeecomwelcome ... no worries mine look that way, and cast fine the grey stuff will skim off when pouring into boolit molds if it dont cast well ,after the mold warms up, add a little tin ,.. 2 if you keep your melt down to @ 650 degrees , the zinc will not melt into the lead mix, if you have the time add a little bit of wheelweights at a time to easily see the floating zinc make sure they are dry and add slowly or they may pop lead at you ... , i hand sort all my wheelweights before the melt , keep the melt at 650 , and add alot at a time using a 3 lb spoon (ladel) to slowly!! add the new clips. and then, skim off the old clips and the occaisonal fe or zn clip that slips by my eyes ... keep up the good work .. ask questions .. before long you will be helping other noobs

[geargnasher]

Difficult to tell from the pics, did you flux your smelt with anything? Bubbly stuff like in the second pic looks like zinc to me, it will float on top like Badbobgerman pointed out, and when the ingots solidify, it will make a mess on top. Can't say for sure, but if you have some hydrochloric acid you could put a drop on the topside and see if it reacts (bubbles). If it does, you might review the sticky on removing zink with sulfur.

Easiest thing to do, though, is throw some of the ugliest ones in your casting pot, flux it good, observe the surface behavior (does it look like one metal puddling on top of the other like a small spoonful of oil floating around on top of water?), and try casting some boolits. If it casts good boolits that shoot straight, it doesn't matter what's in it.

Gear

[lwknight]

I would say to melt and recast them. I have seen pure lead totally corroded into some kind of red dust that will not reduce. The funk growing is probably just various stages of oxidation and possibly reactions with whatever in in the atmosphere and what they were sitting on.

[Springfield]

That is mostly just some oxidized lead floating on the top when you poured the ingots. I get that all the time if I let the melted lead sit too long between pours and it gets hotter than normal, but the ingots make fine bullets anyway.

[DLCTEX]

Looks like some really old lead nose bullets that have oxidized.

[Suo Gan]

Normal, not a big deal. You have good lead now go castem good boolits!

[mongo]

I smelted a bunch of indoor range scrap in the spring and the inguits looked similar. Cast 1200 .357 a couple days ago and they all looked good. I was thinking some kind of mold or oxidation from being in the shed.

[Sonnypie]

If it bothers you too much, you can send it to me. ;-)

Then it won't bother you anymore. :kidding:

[bld451]

Sonnypie,

Thanks for the offer, but it doesn't bother me too much. I'd hate to saddle you with all that hazardous metal anyway. :)

As usual, very good info. Thanks everybody. I'll keep watching this thread as I fab my propane tank pot. Never too much to learn. Soaking overnite full of H2O as we speak. No fireworks yet. Slow, small drills, lots o' coolant. Can't wait till it gets cold so I can stink up the neighborhood. I think I'll use sawdust this time. Gonna keep the top half as a lid/ clip catch pan. Hopefully I won't have any requests to show off the new "smoker".

By the way, what is it with the group buys? Anyone else end up hoping they don't all hit at once? Man, it's like a disease.

Thanks again.

B

[evan price]

The white stuff on the bottom is just lead oxides. Nothing to worry about. The stuff on top might be dirt inclusion, or the last dribbles of lead that hardened differently in that ingot. Melt it again, flux the heck out of it, and see what happens.

[bld451]

I don't know why I feel the need to update whoever may be on this thread. Maybe it's that I did it without blowing myself up. I am reminded of a Churchill quote.....something about "nothing quite so exhilarating as being shot at and missed." :)

I now have a two-piece propane tank and all my hair. (what little I had to start anyway) Thanks to this community for helping me find a proper way to do it. I eliminated all the risk I could and just did it. 3 overnight soaks and rinses with water, drill starter hole for saw, 1/2 pound of dry ice into the hole, wait until the CO flows, then cut slowly with the sawzall. Had a little apprehension when I started cutting, but was done pretty quickly. One tip if anyone is contemplating this.....Seems obvious, but when you turn the valve to see if it is empty, be sure it is hooked up to an appliance, and the appliance gas is turned on. I couldn't feel or hear any LP when I shook it, and didn't hear/smell any propane when I opened the valve while it was not attached to anything, but on my turkey fryer, I got about 5 minutes of gas on full blast. Would have been a bad thing to take the valve off before testing it hooked up. Maybe should have used it preheating or something, but I was ready to get this done. Some welding to do, but will be ready when the air gets cold. I need to reclaim some buckets for foraging.

Slow but steady.

[evan price]

I've shot them before when empty, and it's not a problem. The last one I cut I filled with water- once it is full of water there is no flammable vapor in there. Then you can dump the water and weld or cut as much as you want. It's not like gasoline or oil where there is a residue.

[Sonnypie]

Never the less, I would still welcome the snowy lead. :razz:

Now then, off to play. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1412948#post1412948)

I played hard....

[a.squibload]

...Gonna keep the top half as a lid/ clip catch pan...

I welded a few steel stick-on WWs to my top part around the outside edge
to locate it on the bottom part as a lid.

[bld451]

??

You mean the clips from the clip ons?

[Sonnypie]

No.
I think he means like locator tabs to home the lid in on his pot. Good idea!

I didn't think to keep any of the steel WW I sorted out the other day from my very first WW score. They all went out in the trash yesterday. [smilie=1:

BTW, That white stuff is Boolit fart dust. :-o [smilie=l:

[bld451]

My bad. I had lead stickies on my brain. Don't mind me.

Good one. BFD for short.

[Sonnypie]

If you ever accidentally try to melt a steel one, you'll never forget it. :evil:

I found that by taking a pair of diagonal cutters (we electrical guys call them dikes) and pinching the various doo-dads, you can very quickly sort the trash from the treasures.
Even the Zinc ones were easily separated. (They are kinda hard as well.) [smilie=s:

[a.squibload]

I just couldn't help seeing them as raw materials.
I welded 3 of 'em on the lid, maybe should have used 4,
sticking out so the lid doesn't slide off the pot.
Maybe post a pic tomorrow if it will help.

I guess the clip-on clips would work too, now I'll have to save some of them
just in case! Can never have too much junk...


Aaargh! BFD, get it off me!!!

[bld451]

Yeah, I fabbed some tabs for mine out of hurricane clips. The tab idea works well as long as there is a flare, so it's not so hard to get it centered. I wish I'd seen your post before. Would've saved me some time and prob'ly been a better choice. Story of my life. Took the sorted steel and zinc to the scrap yard today. .10/lb. Not too bad for something I was going to toss anyway. Donut money to keep the tire shop guys happy. Wanted $4.00/lb for 60/40 scrap. seemed a little high for scrap. Am I off base?