Does Lube affect accuracy?

[aussie460mag]

Has anyone found they could get better accuracy from just changing the lube they use?

[btroj]

Absolutely. The key is fitting the lube to the application. I am not a lube expert but do know that viscosity plays a role.
Temperature makes a big difference too. I have found that some lubes need a few shots to warm the barrel to warm the barrel when the tmp falls below 40.

The real key is finding a lube that works in the majority of the loads you will shoot. I don't shoot over 2000 often at all so high velocity isn't an issue while others are more concerned with speed. This means we may need different lubes.

[geargnasher]

Yes. So does the number of grooves lubed.

Gear

[btroj]

Truth be told- is there anything related to cast bullets in general that doesn't have an impact on accuracy?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

During a frozen ammo test a few days back, I wondered what would happen with the lube and possible leading.

There was no indication after 10 frozen rounds fired, of any lubing problems, barrel was it's normal bright and shinny self..

The group it self was just slightly larger then the non-frozen ammo shot some minutes later, and the velocity averaged 35fps less then the non-frozen.

The 465gr Gas Checked boolits used in the test were from a Babore mold, lubed with a sample supplied by Bruce.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[stubshaft]

Yup, some lubes that have too much lubricity can cause vertical stringing.

[RobS]

Lube that comes out of the lube grooves unevenly during flight will also give some ugly groups. I switched to a homemade lube that is soft and will come out of the lube grooves at the muzzle.

[williamwaco]

Yes. So does the number of grooves lubed.

Gear


+1.

'Nuff said.

[badgeredd]

Short answer.....YES

There are a few here that say all good lubes will shoot the same. In my experience, I have found there is a definite affect on accuracy due only to a lube. Often a lube that is good for one load is not good for another, but it seems we all are on a quest for a good universal lube. My lube of choice is MML, It seems to be a great lube in 95% of my loads, but there have been a couple loads that reacted better to another lube.

One thing that limits a lot of lubes is how they perform a different ambient temperature. So far MML has done well for me here in Michigan.

Edd

[nanuk]

I pay special attention to experiences and opinions, when the talk is cold weather.

When I punch some paper, I can play around, but mostly just like to make noise.

BUT, when Hunting, the first shot from a COLD fouled barrel NEEDS to be of a KNOWN accuracy/POA

My hunting temps range from a high of 10C/50F to a low of about -20C/-4F

I am on the hunt for the one lube that may suit my needs. Asking too much?
Multiple Calibers! Multiple lubes!

[bobthenailer]

another aspect of useing a different bullet lube that i have run into is different velocity but accuracy was the same useing red rooster Zambenie vrs LBt commercial both hard lubes with the Lbt lube velocity was a avg of 63 fps less velocity, accuracy tested at 100 yards . it lubed better creating less pressure as is in moly coated j bullets Ammo was loaded with the same brass , primers & powder lots and at the same time , this is just one senairo though.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Badgeredd,

The lube in use during my frozen ammo test, was "MML".

The up-dated version where the Parafine was replaced by bee's wax.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Char-Gar]

I hold the somewhat simple opinion that there are two kinds of bullet lubes, good and bad. There are plenty of both kinds out there.

If you are using a good lube, there will be little or no difference between different good lubes.
If you switch from a bad lube to a good lube, you will see a difference.

So the trick is to choose a good lube from the start and go forward.

The issue of temperature is also a factor in play. I have always lived and shot in Texas and New Mexico. We have hot summers and mild (compared to places further North) winters. I have never had my lube roll snake eye from the heat. I have not suffered bitter cold, so I can offer no personal opinions on that.

Like many things in the cast bullet business, many folks like to delve into all kinds of theories and in the process complicate things far more that is justified by objective reality. But, I am a simple sort. All I do is cast, size, lube and shoot. I have learned what works and don't spent any time thinking about what doesn't work and the difference between them.

World peace is a greater concern to me. :-)

[Sonnypie]

I pay special attention to experiences and opinions, when the talk is cold weather.

When I punch some paper, I can play around, but mostly just like to make noise.

BUT, when Hunting, the first shot from a COLD fouled barrel NEEDS to be of a KNOWN accuracy/POA

My hunting temps range from a high of 10C/50F to a low of about -20C/-4F

I am on the hunt for the one lube that may suit my needs. Asking too much?
Multiple Calibers! Multiple lubes!


+1 Nanuk
That first, and often only, shot must go where it is aimed for success.

Once you find the right recipes for your particular firearm stick with it.

[btroj]

Like Chargar, I want one lube to do it all. I have no time for changing lubes all the time.
I was using Carnuba Red for everything but have since changed to MML. I was hoping to get away from troubles from a cold barrel. I may be out hunt in 20 degree weather, could be lower but I would likely stay home, and need to know where the bullet will go. That was a problem with CR, it seemed to like a warmer barrel.

The question was, can it change accuracy. Yes it can, and does. The key Is to find a lube that meets the needs of your shooting and then run with it.

[badgeredd]

Like Chargar, I want one lube to do it all. I have no time for changing lubes all the time.
I was using Carnuba Red for everything but have since changed to MML. I was hoping to get away from troubles from a cold barrel. I may be out hunt in 20 degree weather, could be lower but I would likely stay home, and need to know where the bullet will go. That was a problem with CR, it seemed to like a warmer barrel.

Precisely why I am a believer in MML. So far I haven't had any problem with cold barrel flyers. Of course there is one other thing that I do that will raise some argument. I do not clean my barrel! I do run a patch or two thru them after shooting, but had demonstrated to myself that a pristine barrel often is a detriment to accuracy...especially for the first cold barrel shot.




Badgeredd,

The lube in use during my frozen ammo test, was "MML".

The up-dated version where the Parafine was replaced by bee's wax.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Interesting. I know that as 357maximum made it, I have had no complaints. For low speed loads, I have also been very pleased with Recluse's 45/45/10. Quick and easy to use with reasonable accuracy at low to moderate velocities with larger calibers.

My experience has been varied for 22 and 6mm but I generally have had good results with MML also.

Edd

[btroj]

I rarely clean my barrel. I do if the load leads at all.
I must got back from bear hunting in Manitoba. I used a 460420 plain base lubed with MM. Load for my Marlin was 46 gr of H322. Clocks around 1750. Gives slight leading after 20 to 30 shots. A dry patch, a quick brushing, a dry patch and all is good. That was how the barrel was left before the hunt.
I have found the MML to be a bit "loose" in extreme heat, like 90 degrees and up. I don't shoot groups often enough to know if it was having any affect on accuracy.

[largom]

I like to experiment with all aspects of handloading and cast boolits. I have many different lubes on hand and when I read about FWFL on this forum I decided to make some. Was currently using a blue lube and when I switched to FWFL my groups did improve slightly. FWFL is my only lube now.

Larry

[afish4570]

I like to experiment with all aspects of handloading and cast boolits. I have many different lubes on hand and when I read about FWFL on this forum I decided to make some. Was currently using a blue lube and when I switched to FWFL my groups did improve slightly. FWFL is my only lube now.

Larry

Bullet lubes and the abbreviations...net help... I have been using Carn. Red in alot of pistol bullets....action pistol. Seems ok.afish4570:oops:

[btroj]

FWFL is Felixs world famous lube. MML is a lube crated by 357 Maximum of this site.

Both are easy to search for recipes, both are good lubes and easy to make.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I hear ya afish4570,

Time after time I just pass over what is probably useful info because I have not idea what is being talked about.

However, the MML lube stands for "Mike's Micro-lithi"

You may be able to find out more with a search, but Bruce from BABore the mold maker, put me onto this stuff.

As said, the sample I rec'd is made with Bee's wax and not as much of the Parafine as in the older version.

Parafine is cut about in half.

I have a bunch of other lubes on hand to try, at some point, but the MML seems good and is recommended by Bruce.

Also, as noted, it seemed to work great in the frozen ammo I shot a couple weeks back.

Today, was out testing some close in impact points for helping a friend put down a couple buffalo in the morning and while out, shot up some odds and ends, part of it using LBT Blue soft.

Barrel was much cleaner after the MML then after shooting up the old stuff.

So far, it is hard to fault the MML, other then it takes a LOOOOOONG time to get it melted to pour into the sizer/luber.

Would be good to have some in sticks with the nice hole down the middle.

If I make up some MML, will try to take care of that.

I know some folk just say to melt the lube and pour it into the sizer/luber, but I always find it to be a pain and time consuming when compaired to just putting a stick of lube in the chamber.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Larry Gibson]

I hold the somewhat simple opinion that there are two kinds of bullet lubes, good and bad. There are plenty of both kinds out there.

If you are using a good lube, there will be little or no difference between different good lubes.
If you switch from a bad lube to a good lube, you will see a difference.

So the trick is to choose a good lube from the start and go forward.

:-)

+1 on the above from charger's post. My sentiments exactly. I have tested many different commercial lubes and have always found none better for accuracy and non leading than Javelina in all kinds of weather except below 0 F. In HV loads 2500+ works as well.

Larry Gibson

[BABore]

I hear ya afish4570,

Time after time I just pass over what is probably useful info because I have not idea what is being talked about.

However, the MML lube stands for "Mike's Micro-lithi"

You may be able to find out more with a search, but Bruce from BABore the mold maker, put me onto this stuff.

As said, the sample I rec'd is made with Bee's wax and not as much of the Parafine as in the older version.

Parafine is cut about in half.

I have a bunch of other lubes on hand to try, at some point, but the MML seems good and is recommended by Bruce.

Also, as noted, it seemed to work great in the frozen ammo I shot a couple weeks back.

Today, was out testing some close in impact points for helping a friend put down a couple buffalo in the morning and while out, shot up some odds and ends, part of it using LBT Blue soft.

Barrel was much cleaner after the MML then after shooting up the old stuff.

So far, it is hard to fault the MML, other then it takes a LOOOOOONG time to get it melted to pour into the sizer/luber.

Would be good to have some in sticks with the nice hole down the middle.

If I make up some MML, will try to take care of that.

I know some folk just say to melt the lube and pour it into the sizer/luber, but I always find it to be a pain and time consuming when compaired to just putting a stick of lube in the chamber.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

It was not the parafin that was cut in half, but rather the BW-430 micro-wax. The original recipe was micro-wax, MAG1 grease, and parafin as a stiffener. While the lube was semi-hard and just barely needed a heater, the 100% micro-wax did not have a very wide plastic range. It tended to flow nice with alittle heat, then turn almost liquid if you got it just a fuzz too warm. Mike and I cut the microwax with half beeswax to widen the plastic range. I don't add a whole bunch of parafin to make a real hard lube either. Just a bit more firm than 50/50 BW=Alox. I want it to fling off the boolit at the muzzle and softer lube usually shoots more accurately for me.

The goal of MML lube was to meet or exceed LBT Blue soft without its tendency to throw cold shot flyers at HV and maintain accuracy when the temps dip down. It does all of that. As soft as I run my MML, I don't even bother melting it to pour into my Saeco sizer. I unwrap my block of lube and push the edge against the fill tube like I was cutting cheese. The plunger pushes it all down into a solid mass. For cleaner handling of lube boolits, I dust them with motor mica.

[Char-Gar]

Larry... I have used Javelina as well, with the same results as you. It works as good as my home made and if I were going to buy some store bought lube, that would be it. It is also one of the most economical lubes around.

I am certain it is no better than the good lubes others use, but it works as good as any good lube.

[Bass Ackward]

Depends on what you will accept and how you shoot really.

If lube isn't your limiting factor, then lube won't generally make a difference for you if you don't ask more of lead than it can deliver. (Normal operating zones)

If your shooting asks more from your combinations than what they can be expected to deliver for the general cast shooter, then lube is a MAJOR factor for you.

[cbrick]

I did a lot of lube testing several years ago, many home made lubes, many commercial lubes.

The prime concern of the testing was the ongoing project of "the education of Rick".

I learned some very interesting things about lube during these tests. One is that lube can effect accuracy and the easiest way is to put any synthetic grease in your home made lubes. I had high hopes for the synthetics but all lubes that contained them destroyed accuracy to the point of instead of shooting groups to lucky to hit the 150m target. Strange. Disappointing.

Every single lube I tested, both commercial and home made prevented leading, even the synthetics. Testing was with my 308 of known accuracy and all tests were with the same known load and the bullet fit the rifle properly. Preventing leading is easy it seems with any decent lube as long as the bullet fits.

Accuracy testing with any of the lubes did have some variation but unless your shooting bench rest matches the differences were nearly a moot point (synthetics excepted). There was little enough difference in groups between lubes that with the exception of "the education of Rick" it would have been a waste of time.

If you are using any decent lube and have a leading problem it's very doubtful it's a lube problem. If your trying to improve accuracy and your using any decent lube there are many other areas to look first, such as fit, powder selection, load, bullet design etc.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Depends on what you will accept and how you shoot really.

If lube isn't your limiting factor, then lube won't generally make a difference for you if you don't ask more of lead than it can deliver. (Normal operating zones)

If your shooting asks more from your combinations than what they can be expected to deliver for the general cast shooter, then lube is a MAJOR factor for you.

This has been my exactly my experience as well, and why I'm in the "lube can make a big difference in accuracy" camp.

Borrow Rick's quip, the education of Geargnasher has involved a tremendous amount of exploration of these limiting factors, and often lube comes up as being one, but mostly beyond a certain point where everything else is on the ragged edge of accuracy failure.

For "normal" rifle loads, where I like to be most of the time, coasting along at mild pressures and working within the velocity and pressure window that seems to give the best results, it's true that pretty much any good lube of approximately the correct lubricity and viscosity for the application will work fine.

For pistol stuff, just about anything will work, and I've found only a couple of bad ones that made accuracy noticeably worse.

Gear

[aussie460mag]

Thanks for all the info.
The reason for the question is that I am still not getting good accuracy out of my 460 mag.
I am using a lee 300gr with aluminum gas check over 36gr adi2205 doing 1600fps, this load tightens the groups up, but still not as good as jacketed.
I am using a lithibee home made lube, boolits sized to chamber throats and I am not getting any leading using WDWW.
Kinda running out ideas of what to tweak, lube, maybe try copper gas checks? or perhaps a new boolit design

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks for jumping in Bruce!

Just going by my print out which compares the "original" and the "we changed it to;" version which indicates the "BW-430 microcrystalline wax" was cut from 2lbs to 1 lb., then "1lb of Yellow Beeswax" was added AND THEN, the Parafine was cut from 1lb. to 1/2lb.

If I have the wrong info for the improved MML lube, now would be the time to catch it, before I try making some.

ALSO, thanks for the tip of, "like cutting cheese" way of filling the luber!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Char-Gar]

To each their own, but I would not use paraffin as a component in bullet lube.

[ColColt]

I've been using BAC for months now and don't see the need for change as it works for me. In 44 Magnum it's particularly good as groups (for me) don't get any better...easy flowing without heat and gives great accuracy with the 429421 and 260 gr Accurate mold #43-260. I can't shoot any better.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Misc%20Stuff/_DEF4156a.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

Larry... I have used Javelina as well, with the same results as you. It works as good as my home made and if I were going to buy some store bought lube, that would be it. It is also one of the most economical lubes around.

I am certain it is no better than the good lubes others use, but it works as good as any good lube.

Yes, there are other lubes that work as well most of the time. However, I've found Javelina to work consistently well from minimal velocities to very high velocities. I'm sure you're aware of the HV tests I've conducted during the RPM threshold tests with the .308W and .223 cartridges. Part of that extensive testing was with different lubes. Above 2400 fps I found only 2 that provided consistent accuracy and results; Javelina and 2500+. I tested the top recommended commercial lubes with 8 different lubes in the .308W and 5 in the .223. Over the years i also tried a myrid of other lubes, commercial and home made, I keep coming back to Javelina.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

Regarding the use of Parafin in bullet lubes, one very sucessful lube is Darr Lube. 50/50 BW/Parafin (in 1lb increments) with 2oz of either old RCBS case lube or STP. With PB bullets under 1500 fps and under 85 deg, you won't find a better lube. It has probably won more ASSRA matches than any other bullet lube.

I've used it at over 90 deg but, I keep my bullets in a iced 6 pack cooler.

It's also a good pistol lube in the same tep range.

Frank

[Jerry11826]

No - not really! That is my experience with low speed pistol bullets. The purpose of the lube is to prevent leading the barel. I've applied many of the most popular commercial lubes availabe using using three of the most popular lubing systems, Lyman, Star and Lee. They all produce the same results.

Am currently using 32 oz Xlox cut with 21 oz mineral spirits. This will give you approximately a 60% Xlox mixture. I don't use this concoction because it is better than the other methods I have tried, but it is cheap and relatively fast to apply.

Yea I know, someone is going to respond they have a combination of JPW, orange blossom honey, STP and a fresh "cow patty" that will produce one hole ten shot groups at 1,000 yards. The groups were fired by his blind 95 year old father with a 2" J-frame S&W. Yea, right!

Make it easy on yourself! If your bullet / barrel combination are producing your desired level of accuracy and you are not getting lead in the barrel, don't worry about bullet lube.

Life is too short!

Jerry