25 Auto meets the 22 LR

[woody1]

Continuing from a previous thread...
“I keep seeing people comment that 25 auto has a bigger punch than a .22lr, and I wonder how this could be so. How does a 35-50 grain bullet moving at 850-875 fps have more punch than a 40 grain bullet moving at 1200-1450 fps? Am I missing something here? Please clarify.”
“The .22 long rifle won't do that velocity out of a 2" barrel.”

It was a nice sunny day and the wind wasn’t screaming so ...
Chrony set up at about 6'. The *** chrome plated Raven Arms 25 Auto sent those Winchester factory FMJs screaming out at the blazing speed of 761 fps for 3 shots. The empties ejected at about the same velocity I suppose.

Just for nuisance info, my reloads with about 1.1 grain of B’eye and a #2 buckshot shoved into the case flush with the mouth went 792 fps for 3 shots.

Now for the 22 LR’s from a S&W 317 with a 1 7/8" or whatever that short barrel is:
Winchester Power Points 40 grain HP 3 shots = 888 fps
CCI Mini mags 40 grain solid 3 shots = 923 fps
Remington Vipers 36 grain tc solid 5 shots = 1030 fps (I didn't believe
the velocity at 3 so shot 2 more to confirm)
Remington 36 grain bulk HP’s 4 shots (one didn’t register) = 824 fps

There you have it. What does it prove? Prob’ly not much but provides numbers.
Regards, Woody

[carpetman]

Woody--What does that prove? Well it almost totally convinces me that I'll not hunt elephants with my .25ACP. l

[danski26]

Maybe in some peoples opinion that little bit of extra diameter on the 25 gives it extra "punch". Not my opinion but i guess you could make an argument. Plug in the data to taylor KO fomula.....if it goes that low!

[woody1]

Woody--What does that prove? Well it almost totally convinces me that I'll not hunt elephants with my .25ACP. l

Ray, I'm so glad to hear that! Mebe it makes my tests all worthwhile, but what about the 22? Might you be using it? Woody

[lar45]

I think the 22lr is a much better round than the 25. The only reason i could think of for someone claiming it's more powerful is because 25 is a bigger number than 22.
So by the same logic a 455 Webley is more powerful than a 454 Casull, and certainly much more than a 44 mag.

Even if the 25 did have any power advantage, the ammo is what, $10 a box? and 22lr ammo is $1 a box?, well not my box of 22 ammo it's $9.50 but has 550 rounds. I do like the Fed 22 copper plated HPs.

I did kill a Porcupine one day with a 25 so at least it can do something. Actually the poor ol critter was out about 85yds when I shot him. A friend of mine(long time ago) tried shooting it with a 22 rifle and gut shot it. Then couldn't connect to finish it off. All I had close was the 25 tucked in my seat cover pocket so I pulled it out, racked the slide, floated the front site just a little and squeezed off. The Porcupine dropped at the shot with one round through the shoulder and lungs.
Everybody there was dumfounded. I just pulled the mag, emptied the chamber and said that's how you do it. It took a little effort, but I did manage to keep a straight face.

[9.3X62AL]

I wasn't sure when I saw the tagline for this thread that it wasn't a parody of 1950's Japanese sci-fi films, a re-make of the Caliber Wars/Platform Wars of gunrag fame--or what.

How refreshing that we're actually seeing real numbers, many thanks for that. I'm almost prompted to drag out the little Walther TPH and see what it will do--no cylinder gap, and all that sort of advantage. It seems that ammo make can really make a difference in short rimfire barrel lengths. SIG-SAUER MOSQUITO/WALTHER TPH SHOOT-OUT.....FILM AT 11!

For comparitive purposes on live game......my RWS 45 air rifle (.177) runs an 8.3 grain Meisterkugeln target pellet at 930 FPS. The RWS 52 in 25 caliber sends out a 27 grain Crow Magnum at 780 FPS. The 177 isn't real decisive on anything larger than city pigeons, and pointed pellets improve lethality somewhat. The 25 caliber pellets make cottontails DRT to about 35 yards, same story on ground squirrels. 1 jackrabbit has been engaged so far, and a good shot anchored him about 25 yards off. Unshot-at critters are preferred when using air rifles--they are less wily and suspicious than pre-processed attempted quarry.

[KCSO]

I use to carry a 25 Browning and was right proud of it, until I shot it at a car door on a bet. The bullet came back at me just about as fast as it left the gun. I swapped it off for a 101 High Standard in 22 mag and don't regret it. I did get to do a guy once who almost killed himself with a 25. He was trying to hide it in his shorts and it went off and nicked the femoral.

[GaBoy]

If I had the coice of only a .22 rimfire or a 25 auto I'd pick the .22 anyday.....
Dont worry with hollow points in a small 22 pistol, just punch a few holes in the heart and he's done with...

[DanWalker]

Had a guy ribbing me semi- good naturedly on time about the davis 22 mag double derringer I carry. He asked me, "What do you think that puny little thing will do?"
I just replied," Well, if I put it against the badguys bellybutton and pull the trigger, it'll definately get his attention, and if that doesn't stop him, the second round will be fired with the barrel placed under his chin."
I'm a firm beleiver that shot placement trumps caliber, every time.
Heck, Ol' Wild Bill carried a pair of Navy 36's and he survived a helluva lot more scrapes than I'm ever likely to be in.

[Ranch Dog]

I'm one that favored the 25 ACP in the previous post and all I got to say is let see you pickup that 22 RF brass and reload it... bet yet, let see you cast a boolit it for it. That's what we are here on this forum for aren't we... casting and reloading, and the 25 ACP trumps the 22 RF any day of the week for that pleasurable activity.

I really doubt ANY of my firearms will ever kill a human being in my lifetime. I do carry one occasionally for the intended purpose of protecting me over the individual that weapon might be pointed at. I don't mess around with anything other than a 45 ACP.

I have killed a couple of stray dogs and a couple of skunks with my 25 ACP and they dropped very dead.

[Doughty]

DanWalker,

That reminds me of an old story. I was on a fire base in Viet Nam. A guy came around wanting to sell a "close range" gun. It was a little Italian .25 Auto. So I sez, "Let's see what it'll do." We go over to the berm and set up a piece of cardboard at about 5 feet. I pull the trigger and hear a pop. I don't see any hole in the cardboard. We look around and finally find the bullet.....protruding about 1/8 of an inch out of the end of the barrel. I declined his offer, saying it was a little too "close range" for me. I don't think it was loaded with cast bullets, so that may have been the problem.:mrgreen:

[Pepe Ray]

Dan Walker.

I just replied," Well, if I put it against the badguys bellybutton and pull the trigger, it'll definately get his attention, and if that doesn't stop him, the second round will be fired with the barrel placed under his chin."

Dan, Just what do you think he would be doing while you were "placing it against his naval"? I hope your remarks were "tongue in cheek."
Pepe Ray

[mtngunr]

"Any gun beats a sharp stick"......although I personally think the .22 has the edge due to smaller frontal area and greater weight giving increased penetration and a much better chance of getting in and getting them where they live, neither are ineffective, neither are optimal for self-defense, and both have true horror stories as to lack of effect.....the same could be said of any pistol round.....all of the teeny numbers have enough unimpeded penetration to reach in and hit something vital, and I don't think any handgun round rates below 50% in stopping aggressors with one shot......I use .22 mainly due to economy over perceived superiority, and were the prices reversed, I'd probably carry a .25ACP........I MUCH appreciate the real chrono data which pretty much confirms my own feelings.......and also appreciate the "this is a cast bullet forum" feeling, but this would not be the first divergent thread I've seen here......and that's welcome, too, in my book......although I love to shoot, do much casting and reloading, it has never even entered my mind to load .25ACP......if S&W had ever made an I-frame or J-frame snubbie in .25ACP, I might have a different take on that issue.....

[9.3X62AL]

Topic drift? HERE--at CAST BOOLITS? Unheard of..........not in a zillion years! :-)

One flaw in the 25 ACP situation has been a relative lack of good-quality firearms chambering the caliber since GCA '68 in the USA. Before that time, Colt and Browning sold some pretty decent variants in 25 ACP. These days, many of the pistols now available are of low to moderate quality. Beretta makes some good ones, and the Walther made a few TPH's in 25. The Bauer is VERY good, but out of print for quite some time. This goes around the question of 'how good does a 25 caliber pistol NEED to be?', and that's question we all need to answer for ourselves in light of how we'll be using it. Let's not forget that John Browning designed the cartridge, and a pistol to house it. I would be reluctant to call anything from that source "junk".

[DanWalker]

Dan, Just what do you think he would be doing while you were "placing it against his naval"? I hope your remarks were "tongue in cheek."
Pepe Ray
What will he be doing? Probably regretting his stupidity for attacking someone who had hand to hand and close quarters combat training almost every friday morning for 10 years while on active duty in USMC.
Please understand, I'm not trying to come off as some macho Rambo type.
I just feel no fear of that kind of scum. From what I've been told, those types of scumbag are used to instant fearful compliance from their "Victims." Attack him, and you've taken the intitiative away, garnering yourself a few seconds to inflict damage,while his stunned mind tries to comprehend what went wrong with his plan.
Maybe when I get old and feeble I'll need to change tactics, but for now I think my plan is a good one.
When that day comes, I'll probably just buy a rascal scooter and mount a holster for a Desert Eagle on it.

[monadnock#5]

Every day of his life as a civilian, my father in law carried a S&W .22 revolver in his back pocket. He told me that he had fired .45 ACPs in the Marine Corp, but didn't care for the recoil, and the lack of accuracy therefrom. With a .22, he was of the opinion that he could put every round into what he shot at. While I have no doubt that lots bigger is lots better in these matters, there is something to be said for being able to keeping them all in the black.

Ken

[charlie / sw mo]

i once took a 25 cal bullet in the chest --third butten down and one inch to the right . it went through me to the lower right rib (didnt penetrate the rib). it didnt put me down . iv been shot in the hand with a 22 lr . based on my experience i believe anyone who carrys anything less than a 38 cal is fooling himself. my carry is a bond 45 colt which i carry loaded with 410 buckshot loads. my feeling being that if you shoot sombody-- make sure you send enough to finish the job.

charlie in sw mo

[onceabull]

Charlie/ ---I'm going to run this exper. by the Mrs.,but doubt it will change her mind...Once we were gifted the pristine FN Browning 25 acp, she said no more lugging the old model Det.Sp.around with her..It still rests on the nightstand.. told her to try to put the bullet square on the end of the party's nose,Starting AT ONCE and staying on program..That's not different than with the 38 snubbie,where the first one up is a shot cartridge,on the assumption that shots 2-6 thereafter,if necessary,can be taken at leisure...Myself,having had the opportunity up close and personal to view a cadaver where the "gent" had intercepted a 12 ga.trap load of 7 1/2s pretty much dead center of his crotch at about 15 ft.,choose the same for serious purposes inside 25 ft. Recommended for realists !!! :twisted: Onceabull :twisted:

[Bret4207]

While I sometimes carry my Beretta 25 or my S+W 22 Kit Gun, I have no illusions about their "stopping power". They both work about the same on small game and pests, OK.

Now, should I once again be so unlucky as to wind up on the bottom of the pile again in a hand to hand event (NO FUN!!!) and should the other party manage to get my gun or otherwise be involved in an attempt to end my wretched existence, I will be more than happy to see how well the 22 or 25 work. BTW- you screw it into his ear or eye socket. A belly shot isn't something that would disable the other party right there and now.

I happened upon one of those S+W J frame jobs with the hammer shroud the other day. Verrrry interesting!

[jhalcott]

I once shot a camel hair overcoat with a 25 auto Baby browning. I hit the left lapel ,going thru it and STOPPING in the next layer of the coat. The distance was only about 12 feet. The bullet was a pretty mushroom though! Maybe it was old ammo or a tight weave in that case, but I'll take the .22lr. My fat fingers can't reload the .25 anyway! BTW the 22 has more energy at the muzzle than the .25

[doc25]

"Any gun beats a sharp stick"......although I personally think the .22 has the edge due to smaller frontal area and greater weight giving increased penetration and a much better chance of getting in and getting them where they live, neither are ineffective, neither are optimal for self-defense, and both have true horror stories as to lack of effect.....the same could be said of any pistol round.....all of the teeny numbers have enough unimpeded penetration to reach in and hit something vital, and I don't think any handgun round rates below 50% in stopping aggressors with one shot......I use .22 mainly due to economy over perceived superiority, and were the prices reversed, I'd probably carry a .25ACP........I MUCH appreciate the real chrono data which pretty much confirms my own feelings.......and also appreciate the "this is a cast bullet forum" feeling, but this would not be the first divergent thread I've seen here......and that's welcome, too, in my book......although I love to shoot, do much casting and reloading, it has never even entered my mind to load .25ACP......if S&W had ever made an I-frame or J-frame snubbie in .25ACP, I might have a different take on that issue.....


I seem to recall reading years ago that the .357 mag w/rem 125gr jhp were in the 80-90% range. This test was a compilation of actual shootings. The test was based on one shot stops with whatever caliber. Not based on bullet placement or skill of the shooter.

[Ranch Dog]

I have big fingers and consider my grip to be all thumbs but I just haven't found handling the 25 ACP boolits or brass a problem...

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Firearms/JA25/Onthepress.jpg

It might be cheap, but my little JA25 has proved to me to be a awesome firearm. I've used it to introduce family and friends to the enjoyment of shooting a semi-automatic pistol. In the past I've found adult males, let alone females or young people, reluctant to pickup and shoot a 45 ACP on my range. No one seems to hesitate with the 25 ACP. The only problem is that they tend to shoot every cartridge so I've learned not to take more than 100 out at a time.

My new bride came from a non-gun (vs. an anti-gun) family and was a victim of gun violence in her adult life. She was held hostage with a 44 Mag at her head. The trigger was pulled but the gun misfired. That's all she remembers, didn't pass out, she just remembers the the hammer striking home and that is it. The police don't know why it didn't discharge. Full cylinder with factory ammo. God was really good to her that day. Anyway... firearms was a big "thing" for us when we decided to be a couple. I started with rimfire rifles (staying away from handguns) but eventually put a Raven in her hand. She WAS intimidated by it but within the hour she had shot hundreds of rounds through it. Her weapon of choice now... a 45 ACP in your face and she WILL not hesitated to pull the trigger as the gun comes up. Her comments about life, death, and firearms... "I WILL NEVER BE A VICTIM AGAIN!"

I don't consider the 25 ACP a self defense weapon. It would be very effective as a "selective" death weapon but that isn't a self defense role. It is very effective as a training tool to teach the handgun disciplines. It is also just a lot of fun to shoot!

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Firearms/JA25/JA25.jpg

My JA25 is very accurate, my dad's Raven isn't. I don't consider this a statement about either firearm, just simply luck of the draw? This is target shot with my JA25 at 25-yards. There are various holes in it from a "group" shoot with my wife and others but the big ragged hole is my shooting from one clip of ammo. The sights are fixed on the JA25 so it is just a point and shoot deal but that's okay too. For reference, the target has a 4" square. The load is 1.6-grains of Unique, the CCI 500 SP primer, UMC brass, and my Lee 252-50-RF boolit at 846 FPS.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Firearms/JA25/JA25Target.jpg

I still don't think it is a bad deal for a pistol you can purchase for two-digits. Of course they make a JA22 but I can't reload the ammo it shoots.

[beemer]

I have carried both .22 & .25 pistols.Never had to use one and hope I never will.Sometimes it is just to hard to carry anything else and I'm to old to run very fast. There are a few things I have learned about these little guns over the years.
Ammo for the .25 is more reliable than the .22.Carry a .22 in your hip pocket in a humid climate and it will draw moisture,it will be weak or will not fire. The .25 will feed more reliably than a .22, especially in a small pocket pistol.Realiability is everything in a defence pistol. Use good ammo and a good proven gun. I realize these little guns are small, but they have their place. I have carried a Beretta 950 for 20 years ,it has worked perfectly when clean or full of pocket lint.
beemer

[mtngunr]

I have carried both .22 & .25 pistols.Never had to use one and hope I never will.Sometimes it is just to hard to carry anything else and I'm to old to run very fast. There are a few things I have learned about these little guns over the years.
Ammo for the .25 is more reliable than the .22.Carry a .22 in your hip pocket in a humid climate and it will draw moisture,it will be weak or will not fire. The .25 will feed more reliably than a .22, especially in a small pocket pistol.Realiability is everything in a defence pistol. Use good ammo and a good proven gun. I realize these little guns are small, but they have their place. I have carried a Beretta 950 for 20 years ,it has worked perfectly when clean or full of pocket lint.
beemer

I grew up and live in a humid climate (SEUS coastal), and have NEVER had a .22LR fail to fire for any reason that I could not trace to it being a faulty round from the factory or from obvious terrible storage.....even soaking wet in the rain, my .22's have always worked with known good ammo. The .22LR is a poor choice for many automatic designs, for sure, but being a sucker for teeny .25ACP pocket auto pistols, I have spent a small fortune on them, and successes have not come close in number to the failures....a short list would include JP Sauer & Sohn, Browning, Bauer, PSP, Beretta, Colt and Taurus.....doesn't keep me from wanting another Baby one day, but I know how bad they all CAN be.....for a small caliber little pocket pistol, I have a beater H&R Sidekick 2.5"bbl 9-shooter that is tin can accurate at 50yds, and a Smith 34-1 1 7/8ths"bbl that shoots even better.....personal choices based on pocket auto history....if someone has a reliable .25ACP, that's just great, but I'll argue until the earth stands still when someone says a .25ACP is more reliable than a .22...no, not argue.....I'll get either the 929 or the 34, and just fire it SxS with a .25ACP little pocket auto, and we just fire until one of them chokes......both are great little rounds, and both can be great shooters in the right gun, and just terrible in the wrong gun.....

[mtngunr]

I seem to recall reading years ago that the .357 mag w/rem 125gr jhp were in the 80-90% range. This test was a compilation of actual shootings. The test was based on one shot stops with whatever caliber. Not based on bullet placement or skill of the shooter.

Same guys.....not really science, or bad science.....and they've taken some ethics licks of late with bogus data they helped put out.....but I believe they rated the Federal 125grJHP at over 95%....and NO handgun came out much less than 50%......it seems most folk don't care to have a hole poked in them, and ceased and desisted immediately....suprise.....that "one shot stop" thing was defined by the shootee ceasing whatever got him shot, or fleeing no more than x-number of feet, something like that

[Catshooter]

Excellent post RanchDog.

I also do not look down on the .25. It's just another tool in the tool box and all of them are only as good as what you're using them for. Fit the tool to the task.


Cat

[mtngunr]

Excellent post RanchDog.

I also do not look down on the .25. It's just another tool in the tool box and all of them are only as good as what you're using them for. Fit the tool to the task.


Cat

Yep, it's like man told me when I was kid asking one of those stupid, "but which one is better?" questions.....he said, "That's like asking a carpenter which one is better, the hammer or the saw."

[mtngunr]

.25ACP fans will enjoy this site/resource.....hit the archive link and then thumbnails for close-ups of assembled, field-stripped, and detail stripped guns....the RH margin of each gun column also has a linked history in either English or German.... http://www.vestpockets.bauli.at/