the ultimate 223 cast load

[Bullshop Junior]

THE ULTIMATE CAST LOAD FOR THE 223. ;-)
DATE: 6-9-05- +85°
PRIMER: FEDERAL #205
POWDER: 18.5GN OF IMR 4895
BULLET: NEI 55GN (#4) POINTED GC @225" 6/1 - ww/MONO TYPE
CASE: MILITARY 223
LUBE: BULL SHOP SPEED GREEN
FPS: ?
OAL:2.081

I WILL TRY TO CHRONOGRAPH THE LOAD SOME TIME TO FILL IN THE *FPS* SPACE.

THIS IS THE BEST 223 CAST BULLET LOAD THAT I HAVE EVER TRIED!!!!! MY USE TO BE FAVORITE LOAD OF 11.0GN OF LONGSHOT, SHOT HALF INCH GROUPS, AND THIS LOAD SHOT THEM ALL IN ONE 30 CAL SIZE HOLE!!!!!

I WAS TRYING TO DEVELOPE A GOOD LOAD FOR THAT BULLET, AND DAD TOLD ME 20.0GN, AND I GOT THE POWDER MEASURER SET FOR 19.8GN AND LEFT IT. THAT SHOT AT 3 INCH. SO I DESIDED TO GO DOWN ONE MORE TURN WHICH WENT TO 18.9. THAT IS THE LAST ADJUSTMENT I MADE, AFTER I SAW HOW GOOD IT SHOT!;-)

DANIEL/BULL SHOP JUNIOR

CAUTION! THIS LOAD WAS DEVELOPED FOR THE REMINGTON MODEL:788. BE CAREFUL WHEN LOADING FOR OTHER BRAND AND MODEL GUNS.

[Bass Ackward]

POWDER: 18.5GN OF IMR 4895

I WAS TRYING TO DEVELOPE A GOOD LOAD FOR THAT BULLET, AND DAD TOLD ME 20.0GN, AND I GOT THE POWDER MEASURER SET FOR 19.8GN AND LEFT IT. THAT SHOT AT 3 INCH. SO I DESIDED TO GO DOWN ONE MORE TURN WHICH WENT TO 18.9. THAT IS THE LAST ADJUSTMENT I MADE, AFTER I SAW HOW GOOD IT SHOT!;-)

DANIEL/BULL SHOP JUNIOR

Young Dan,

Im jealous. I shot all day yesterday and the only one hole group I got was from one shot.

I started to write this down and now I'm starting to believe you had a little too much sugar in your Kool Aid today.

Was that 18.5 grains or 18.9?

It would be interesting to see the velocity on that because everyone knows that you can't get cast bullet accuracy above 2400 fps. :grin:

So see if we have to rewrite the accuracy rule after you clock this one.

I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts on high velocity accuracy with pointed vs flat nose designs.

[Scrounger]

POWDER: 18.5GN OF IMR 4895

I WAS TRYING TO DEVELOPE A GOOD LOAD FOR THAT BULLET, AND DAD TOLD ME 20.0GN, AND I GOT THE POWDER MEASURER SET FOR 19.8GN AND LEFT IT. THAT SHOT AT 3 INCH. SO I DESIDED TO GO DOWN ONE MORE TURN WHICH WENT TO 18.9. THAT IS THE LAST ADJUSTMENT I MADE, AFTER I SAW HOW GOOD IT SHOT!;-)

DANIEL/BULL SHOP JUNIOR

Young Dan,

Im jealous. I shot all day yesterday and the only one hole group I got was from one shot.

I started to write this down and now I'm starting to believe you had a little too much sugar in your Kool Aid today.

Was that 18.5 grains or 18.9?

It would be interesting to see the velocity on that because everyone knows that you can't get cast bullet accuracy above 2400 fps. :grin:

So see if we have to rewrite the accuracy rule after you clock this one.

I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts on high velocity accuracy with pointed vs flat nose designs.

STARMETAL JUNIOR!!!!

[NVcurmudgeon]

Daniel, That's very good accuracy, especially from a .22 cal. Of course you had the advantage of shooting it out of a Remington 788, a rifle well-known for accuracy. How many groups? What distance? I'm too cowardly to cast boolits any smaller than 7 X 57!

[BCB]

Bullshop Junior,
I tried, without success, to get cast to shoot from my T/C Contender Super 14" in 223 Remington cartridge. No luck whatsoever!!! I tried literally 7 styles of bullets and many, many powders--2"-3" was the best I could get at 100 yards. You certainly got a shooter for sure. Good-deal...BCB

[waksupi]

I'll tweak it a bit, and see what I can get my Remington 700 to do. I hadn't tried this powder in this caliber yet.

[Bullshop Junior]

Bass Ackwards
I Could Not Get Too Much Sugar In My Koolade, Because We Have Don't Get Any Koolade.:) As For The Load, I Made A Mistake It Was 18.9 Grains Of Imr 4985 Not 18.5. Sorry!

Daniel/Bull Shop Junior

[lar45]

Hi there Daniel

Do you clean in between groups? Let it cool in between groups? how long? How many shots per group? What was the range to the target?

Sounds like good loading/ shooting to me.

I had my 06 out to the range today and the best I could do was 1.65" at 50yds with the Fat30 at 2580fps.

[Bullshop Junior]

Hi there Daniel

Do you clean in between groups? Let it cool in between groups? how long? How many shots per group? What was the range to the target?

Sounds like good loading/ shooting to me.

I had my 06 out to the range today and the best I could do was 1.65" at 50yds with the Fat30 at 2580fps.

Do you clean in between groups? :NO
Let it cool in between groups? :NO
how long? :NO
How many shots per group? :5
What was the range to the target? : 50 YARDS

note: I shot of the bench.
The idea is we just shot for fun!!!!!
DANIEL / BS JR

[andrew375]

I've been useing the NEI .224-71-gc for the past couple of years. Cast from ww and quenched from the mould I get sub moa accuracy at up to 2600 fps. Present load is 12gr. VV N110 for 2400 fps and .7 moa. This is from a Savage M12 FLVSS. I shoot over two thousand of these bullets per year. Barrel gets cleaned once every two monthes; whether it needs it or not.

[jpb]

Hi andrew375!

What lube do you use for these velocities? I know that you are also in Europe, so I wonder if I might be able to get the same lubes here in Sweden. I have been unable to get any of the commercial lubes like LBT Blue that might otherwise be suitable, but seem not to be sold outside the U.S.A. I think I will have to make some Felix lube if can't find a commercial lube to buy.

jpb (John)
PS Thanks again for your advice several years ago about geting a Lee collet sizer for my .375 Ouch & Ouch, and your other advice about cast loads in this calibre. All of your advice was bang on!

[Bullshop]

Hi andrew375!

What lube do you use for these velocities? I know that you are also in Europe, so I wonder if I might be able to get the same lubes here in Sweden. I have been unable to get any of the commercial lubes like LBT Blue that might otherwise be suitable, but seem not to be sold outside the U.S.A. I think I will have to make some Felix lube if can't find a commercial lube to buy.

jpb (John)
PS Thanks again for your advice several years ago about geting a Lee collet sizer for my .375 Ouch & Ouch, and your other advice about cast loads in this calibre. All of your advice was bang on!

I am not shure how to do an over seas shipment but am willing to try if you would like to try BS Speed Green lube. As the name says it was developed for speed. You can check my prices from the link at the bottom of the main page.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop Junior]

My dad said it!!!!! BS Speed Green was developed for Speed, and I can prove it. A couple of months ago Beagle posted on topic: "Long shot in small bores", He said that he was using 8.0gn of long shot in his 223 and getting 2201 fps. I do not know the kind of lube that he used, but I was using BS Speed Green, And 11.0gn of longshot. I never chronographed it but I am guessing it was going about 2600 fps. No leading, good accuracy, good good lube!!!!!
DANIEL / BS JR

[Finn45]

I am not shure how to do an over seas shipment but am willing to try if you would like to try BS Speed Green lube. As the name says it was developed for speed. You can check my prices from the link at the bottom of the main page.
BIC/BS

I know something about it, although I'm usually in the receiving end ;-). I just sent some info via PM.

Welcome jpb and andrew375!

[andrew375]

Hi. John I wodered if that was you as I read the post. I occasionaly get to Sweden, though not as often as I would like. Last time I went to a gunshop in Uppsala and just went "WOW"! :grin:

The lube I use is Lyman Super moly stick lube. I will be available in Sweden but if not you can get it from www.lockstock.com.

If you are still at the University check out the cleaner's cupboard sometime and look for the liquid floor polish, the one you want has a milky appearence and will have something on the label about it containing 25% - 40% solids. Try coating your bullets in this; use the same as liquid alox. I tried it with the Lee .22 Bator and went up to 2700fps without a problem! BTW, a litre of this stuff will last you several decades. I use it with pistol bullets as I can lube 500-600 at a time.

[jpb]

Hi andrew375

Good to hear from you again!

Yes, I still have my faculty position at the university, and I will indeed look for the floor polish you mention. In fact, they waxed the hall outside my office just two weeks ago. However, never in a million years would I have thought of the polish as bullet lube! Neat idea.

I'm way in the north of Sweden (Umeå) and I'm a bit jealous of folks living in Gothenberg, Uppsala and Stockholm regarding their many upscale gunstores!

jpb (John)

[jpb]

I am not shure how to do an over seas shipment but am willing to try if you would like to try BS Speed Green lube. As the name says it was developed for speed. You can check my prices from the link at the bottom of the main page.
BIC/BS

Hi Bullshop!

The prices for your lube seem very reasonable, and even with some extra shipping to get them here in Sweden I'm interested.

Can BS Speed Green lube be remelted and used for pan lubing? I don't have a sizer-lubricator so this (or hand lubing) are my only options.

jpb (John)

[Bullshop]

Hi Bullshop!

The prices for your lube seem very reasonable, and even with some extra shipping to get them here in Sweden I'm interested.

Can BS Speed Green lube be remelted and used for pan lubing? I don't have a sizer-lubricator so this (or hand lubing) are my only options.

jpb (John)
John
Yes BS Speed Green can be remelted and will not seperate. I can send it in cake form and give you a bit of a break on the price. How does $25.00 per LB sound. You can break that down to whatever ammount you want for that price rate, like 12.50 per 1/2 lb or 6.25 per 1/4 or $2500. per 100 if you want.
But if you want that much I may have to float it over myself. I could call it a working vacation, pass the shark repellent.
BIC/BS

[lar45]

Hey Bull Shop, the post office has a Global Flat Rate Envelope the same size as the priority envelpes. It runs about $7-8. I can fit 20 sticks of lube in one. You'll have to check on which countries it is good for, but I've sent some to Germany, Canada and Russia without any problems. I just put wax sticks on the customs labels as anything with Bullet on it would probably raise suspitions.

[PatMarlin]

I've been useing the NEI .224-71-gc for the past couple of years. Cast from ww and quenched from the mould I get sub moa accuracy at up to 2600 fps. Present load is 12gr. VV N110 for 2400 fps and .7 moa. This is from a Savage M12 FLVSS. I shoot over two thousand of these bullets per year. Barrel gets cleaned once every two monthes; whether it needs it or not.


This is just what I've been looking for. I just bought a Savage Model 12BVSS in .223, and I was wondering what I could do with cast boolits? I hate buying condom copper, but I need to kill coyotes.

They're killing all of our dear around here, and quail etc. I got one of those Foxpro E-callers on order.

So what range and trajectory do you think these WW .224 boolits may be capable of?

[Bullshop]

This is just what I've been looking for. I just bought a Savage Model 12BVSS in .223, and I was wondering what I could do with cast boolits? I hate buying condom copper, but I need to kill coyotes.

They're killing all of our dear around here, and quail etc. I got one of those Foxpro E-callers on order.

So what range and trajectory do you think these WW .224 boolits may be capable of?
I am pretty shure your Savage will have a 1/9" twist so you will likely find it to prefer longish boolits.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

The 1 in 9 twist was a compromise between the 1 in 7 and the 1 in 12 twist to handle all weights of bullets except those super heavy long ones. Just read an article from a gunrag where the author said he doesn't believe you can over stabilize a bullet. I might agree with him, so far I haven't seen any fast twist that were handicapped in the accuracy department with the lighter bullets.

Joe

[Bullshop]

The 1 in 9 twist was a compromise between the 1 in 7 and the 1 in 12 twist to handle all weights of bullets except those super heavy long ones. Just read an article from a gunrag where the author said he doesn't believe you can over stabilize a bullet. I might agree with him, so far I haven't seen any fast twist that were handicapped in the accuracy department with the lighter bullets.

Joe
Joe
That might be true of jacketed bullets but anyone building a cast rifle will generaly use the most gentle twist that will stabilise the boolit they will shoot at the longest range thay will shoot it. That is why I think he may find his best accuracy with a longer boolit such as the 70ish gn NEI's I sent you as a sample. The old timey shootzen fellows wanted thier boolits to be stable only to the target and not much beyond, and you must agree they did some good shooting. Just try to challenge the Roland/Pope group sometime with any rifle boolit/bullet you want and my guess is you cant beat it. If I am remembering correctly it was 20 shots at 40 rods(220 yards) into roughly .750" with plain base boolits and black powder.
BIC/BS

[andrew375]

This is just what I've been looking for. I just bought a Savage Model 12BVSS in .223, and I was wondering what I could do with cast boolits? I hate buying condom copper, but I need to kill coyotes.

They're killing all of our dear around here, and quail etc. I got one of those Foxpro E-callers on order.

So what range and trajectory do you think these WW .224 boolits may be capable of?

I've used the NEI bullet at ranges out to 500 yards. With an m.v. of 2400 fps I get good results to 200 yards; 300 yards is a bit iffy and anything more a waste of time. The bullet goes subsonic at around 300 yards and the range table indicates a rapid drop in velocity, so I don't use these bullets anymore at over 200 yards. Now I only use the rifle at 50 & 100 yards and 600 - 1000 yards; the gap is due to switching over to the 75gr. Hornady A-Max for long range work. The accuracy of this rifle with the A-Max and the 69gr. MK makes target shooting at 200, 300 and 500 yards a bit boring; so I use the .375 or a .577 Enfield for those distances.

I the field I would limit these bullets to 200 yards due to problems with range estimation and elevation settings. Of course if you are calling the predator to bait you can sight in precisely before hand.

So far I haven't played with the Lee Bator bullet enough to get a handle on it. The main issue at the moment is seating depth. The throat on my Savage is very long but even so I have found differences in group shape and size from various seating depths. Best load so far is 13r. of VV N110 for 2400fps and seated so the case mouth just covers the case mouth. This is also an issue with the 72gr. NEI, the bullet has to be seated long for any sort of accuracy at high velocity; with my rifle this means seating the bullet with the lube groove exposed.

For what it is worth (speaking as an engineer), I don't think rifling twist has as much of a negative impact on cast bullets as many believe, so long as it generates the required gyroscopic stability. I say this because the difference in angular acceleration that a bullet is subjected to between 1 in 12 and 1 in 8 is quite small compared with it being accelerated by a 1 in 12 twist. One of my friends is employed designing gun systems and he put the figure at about 9000G or 88 290 Metres per second per second (288,000 fps per second).

I belive the real problem to be the fact that barrels intended to shoot longer bullets are throated longer and, in the case of barrels chambered to Mil Spec., larger than those intended to shoot commercial light bullet ammo. I shot a Swedish (M38) mauser for some time and never had any problems that could be attributed to the 1 in 7.5 inch twist rate. Of course having a fast twist barrel thoated for short bullets would be pointless as longer bullets would have to be seated a lot deeper; seriously reducing case volume.

[PatMarlin]

Well the longest shot I'll prolly get on a yote will be under 200 yrds for the most part, so that will be fun using cast.

I wound up changing my mind on the Savage, when I saw a Howa yesterday. Just the standard M1500 in .223 stainless w/22" barrel was far lighter and well ballanced and better suited for my needs, since I'll be hunting more than bench shooting with this rifle. I don't know what twist it has though?

I understand the Howa's can shoot sub moa, specially after some tuning. The bolts are alot heavier duty looking, and the overall solid quality feel is better than the Savage I beleive. Savages are dam good rifle also though.

[StarMetal]

In 223 the Howa twist is 1 in 12

Joe

[PatMarlin]

Uh oh.. :shock:

Joe... I've got an Ideal 225 462 - GC Loverin design, cast out to 58gr w/wws'.

Howya think this may work with the Howa 1 in 12?

=or am I scaroooooooed.. :sad:

My brain is only half -or maybe a quarter on shootin' cause salmon season's still open, and my legs wobble from the swells.. :shock:

[StarMetal]

Hey don't worry alot about bullet weight with slower twist with cast bullets. They seem to work out with the slow twist. Example: My Mod 70 Win varminter in 223 with the 1 in 12 twist will stabilize a 70 gr cast bullet. They don't keyhole, but they're not real accurate out of this rifle either. Just go ahead and try it and see what you get. If you bought that Howa brand new have you fired some jacketed out of it to smooth up the bore and rifling some? Might be a good idea to break her in. Then clean the jacket fouling out real good before going to lead.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I understand the Howa's can shoot sub moa, specially after some tuning. The bolts are alot heavier duty looking, and the overall solid quality feel is better than the Savage I beleive. Savages are dam good rifle also though.

Pat,

Oooops. Too late. I was going to try and talk you out of getting that Howa because those leave a few things to be desired. Mine does anyway. Took about 50 jacketed before I could get it up to 300 fps with cast.

That sub MOA line is a bunch of crap though. You have to drop below 3000 fps if you want sub MOA with cast. Best you can get over that is about 4" unless you want to go to jacketed. Hold 27-2800 fps though and it will make you smile.

[PatMarlin]

I just bought it BA-John...

-and I won't get it for another 10 days. I was meaning sub-moa with copper. Cast would be a great plus, but I bought it for shootin' condom copper at coyotes.

I plan on breakin' her in well before I even try lead, so we'll see.

You have problems with your Howa just using lead, or other problems?

I can tell you one thing I've learned bout' these varmit rifles- from make to make, people either love em' or hate em'. Most all brands have troubled lemons.

At least on the Howa, I can get a good solid trigger job done to it, if it needs one. It's a good bolt, and I can glass bed and tune it up from there.. :wink:

[Bullshop Junior]

I did a velocity test on the load of 18.9gn of 4895, and it was going at 2390 fps! At this vellosity the barrel was completely clean with no leading. This load is a good cast bullet varmint load!;-)
DANIEL / BS JR

[PatMarlin]

WTG B-Shop JR!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't wait til my .223 gets here so can start shootin'... ;-)

[Four Fingers of Death]

Hi. John I wodered if that was you as I read the post. I occasionaly get to Sweden, though not as often as I would like. Last time I went to a gunshop in Uppsala and just went "WOW"! :grin:

The lube I use is Lyman Super moly stick lube. I will be available in Sweden but if not you can get it from www.lockstock.com.

If you are still at the University check out the cleaner's cupboard sometime and look for the liquid floor polish, the one you want has a milky appearence and will have something on the label about it containing 25% - 40% solids. Try coating your bullets in this; use the same as liquid alox. I tried it with the Lee .22 Bator and went up to 2700fps without a problem! BTW, a litre of this stuff will last you several decades. I use it with pistol bullets as I can lube 500-600 at a time.

I'm off for a couple of days and when I get back, I'm gonna check out the cleaner's locker.
Mick.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Uh oh.. :shock:

Joe... I've got an Ideal 225 462 - GC Loverin design, cast out to 58gr w/wws'.

Howya think this may work with the Howa 1 in 12?

=or am I scaroooooooed.. :sad:

My brain is only half -or maybe a quarter on shootin' cause salmon season's still open, and my legs wobble from the swells.. :shock:

I have a Lyman mould tucked away and it is a Loverin style. I just dusted my Sako 223 off the other day. It is a 1985 vintage Hunter with a No3 profile MAB (Aussie company, I think they sell in the US now) Bbl with a 1 in 12" twist. I've never shot cast in it. Boy it's getting to the stage where I don't have enough time to go to work.
Mick.

PS almost forgot, It is on it's 5th Bbl, It was originally a 222, but the last two Bbls have been in 223. How sweet it is. If I get it percolating on cast this Bbl might see me out!

[Bullshop Junior]

I just got done doing a velocity test with my other favorite cast load of 11.0 of long shot. I am impressed that it is going 2739 fps with no leading and half inch groups at 50 yards and 2 inch at 200-250 yards.
The reason is bull shop speed green lube
DANIEL / BS JR

[PatMarlin]

I just got done doing a velocity test with my other favorite cast load of 11.0 of long shot. I am impressed that it is going 2739 fps with no leading and half inch groups at 50 yards and 2 inch at 200-250 yards.
The reason is bull shop speed green lube
DANIEL / BS JR

You haven't just been promoted up the ladder to sales manager have you JR?... [smilie=l:

Hey- what grain as cast boolit are you using again?, and what twist is your barrel?


Mick- that Sako sounds like a beaut!

[PatMarlin]

I'm not trying to compare Bull Shops vs LBT lube here, but Veral Smith had a cool tip on casting the .223 for coyotes. I asked Veral Smith a question bout' the .223 a while back, and he just got back to me:

Hello Veral,

Hey- I just bought a Varmiter bolt in .223 Rem, and I'm wondering what the possibilities/limits are using a 58gr Ideal loverin mold I picked up long ago- gaschecked, with Blue Soft in this rifle?

I've got yotes to hunt up here, cause they're killin' off the deers. But being a cast bullet fanatic, it's hard to buy copper- even for this rifle.

Thanks,

Pat


Pat,

You won't get leading at very near full power, but accuracy may fall off more than you can stand when you get speeds over 2400 fps with air cooled WW alloy, which is what is needed to get expansion for good kills.

Or cast them real hard, and with split noses.

Use standard weight kitchen foil strips about 1/4 inch wide laid across the nose part of the cavities, close the mold on it and cast.

When they hit, the bullet becomes three pieces instantly, which get the attention of those dogs!

No other lube will get you closer than 200 fps to the speed you'll get with our Blue soft. Use the slowest BALL powders in the manuals and you get best results.

Veral

[Bullshop Junior]

Patmarlin
No, I have been head of sales since I was a baby. I have grown up in a gun shop, and I teethed on the rubber butt plate of my dad's favorite gun. and I am using 55gn bullets in the 18.9 of 4895 and the 11.0 of long shot.
__________________________________________________ _______________
To everybody
I tried 11.0gn of long shot on the 1/4 inch steal, and it went through it and the steal and the piece of ply wood holding it up.

I also tried 18.9gn of 4895 with a 45gn fn bullet and it shot just as good as the 55gn bullet.
DANIEL / BS JR

[David R]

So you are gettin 2" at 200 - 250 yards with a 45 grain FN too? WooW!

:wink:

[Bullshop Junior]

Load:
Primer: federal #205
Powder:18.9gn of IMR 4895
Bullet:nei 55gn pointed @225
Case:misc.
Lube:bullshop speed green
FPS:2290
Group size at 35 yrd:1/2"
Group size at 100 yard: 1"

Load:
Primer:federal #205
Powder:27.0gn of ww 748 ball
Bullet:winchester 50gn soft point
Case: Federal
Lube:
FPS:3100
Group size at 35 yrd:3/4
Group size at 100 yard:2.1/2

I like that bullet!!!!!!!!!!(the cast, not the jacketed)

I put a new scope on the rifle a few days ago.
I got a leapers 3-9x42 mil dot, and am still trying new stuff.
DANIEL / BS JR.