Heavy Bullets in the 45 ACP

[War Eagle]

Has anyone played with heavier bullets in the 45 auto? I am specifically looking at 250gr to 255gr bullets. I know you run out of powder space in a hurry when you go over the ubiquitous 230gr bullets but I know Buffalo Bore has offered heavier 45acp offerings in the past (haven't checked recently). Anybody tried duplicating those? Possible loads or suggestions?

[dk17hmr]

I am running a 454424 Lyman, which casts about 260gr, in my 1911 using aa9 powder. I am averaging 870 fps its not a plinking load that's for sure.

[Matthew 25]

War Eagle, War Eagle!
I have played with heavier 45 acp for my Smith 625. So, I really have no idea if this load would be safe in a 1911, I'd guess it is NOT. I used a LaserCast 250g RNFP with 10g of bluedot and got 1106 fps, using 11g of bluedot it went to 1175 fps with a very low standard deviation. The loads were fine for accuracy, I only played with them for 1 day so I don't have any more experience with them. There were no obvious pressure signs and the cases fell out (moon clipped together). The recoil was pretty easy. I also was using Starline 45 super brass, I thought at the time that it was stronger than regular acp brass, apparently it is not.

[bigboredad]

I have used a lee 255 with 4.2gr of unique with good luck I have no idea what the velocity is

[Char-Gar]

Elmer Keith designed 452423 for the 45 Auto Rim round and it can be used in the ACP round in the autopistol. From Linotype this bullets weights 230 grains, in No. 2 about 238 and in ACWW about 242. I size them .452 and seat the wadcutter shoulder almost flush with the case mouth.

In one of the older Lyman load books there are loads given for this bullet in the 45 ACP cartridge for use in the autopistol. One of the uses Bulleye power in the 4.5 to 4.8 grain range. I have loaded many thousands round of this bullet over the years and use Bulleys power in this charge weight range.

Any time you move to heavier than nominal weight bullets in the autopistol, there are several issues to consider.

1. Reduced powder capacity in the case with what that does to pressure.
2. Potential feeding issues
3. Higher recoil/momentum with the possible issue of battering the pistols frame.


Each of these issues can be dealt with, but they should not be ignored.

[44MAG#1]

I chronoed some Buffalo Bore 45 ACP ammo with the 255 gr bullet at plus P in a Jerry Michelek (sp) and it ran 977 fps. In a 1911 I use a 22 pound spring. That or a 24 pound spring will do.
I can just about duplicate the load with 7.1 gr Power Pistol and the Magma Eng. 250 gr RNFP bullet.

[Catshooter]

Chargr gives you many good points to consider.

I run the 452424 cast from wheel weights in all of my 45s. I use Universal Clays and keep the velocity to about 750 to 800 fps. It is my favorite load and I depend upon it for self defense. Have for years but I haven't shot anyone with it yet, although the day's not over.

Welcome to the forum War Eagle.



Cat

[35remington]

I'd recommend not springing a 1911 heavily. This batters and damages the gun.

Further, there are reliability issues that rear their ugly head for many guns when a 1911 is over sprung.

It's much better to fit a small radius stop and use a reasonable spring rate. This avoids both frame battering and battering of the lower lug feet, which a heavy spring makes worse.

I've shot a great many heavy bullets in 45 ACP. After that experience I fail to see what a heavy bullet of 255 grains has over a 230 grain bullet in an autoloading pistol, especially if both have large meplats.

If, for example, the RCBS 230 Cowboy bullet won't get it done going 950 fps with Power Pistol (blasty) or Unique, a heavier bullet ain't gonna help. The higher velocity possible at safe pressures that is obtainable with a less capacity intrusive 230 offsets any imaginary gain from 25 grains more of lead.

There is little difference in penetration between a 230 and a 255.

I would suggest that a 250 that nears or exceeds 900 fps is in the Plus P range depending upon just how deeply the bullet seats compared to, say, 230 ball.

If using Unique, and since I don't know what bullet you are using, start at 5.0 grains and go from there. Make sure you bring the chronograph when undertaking any load development. Here I'm assuming you are loading for an autoloading pistol.

If for a revolver, and it is of quality make and recent vintage, like a 625, then somewhat heavier loads are acceptable due to better case support compared to an automatic. Don't use some of the overloads that are commonly seen on the internet. For example, you see many stating they use 7.5 of Unique with a Lyman 452424 or equivalent, but in my experience this is way too much powder for that bullet, even in a 625.

[44MAG#1]

First off one would not use such a heavy load for practice. I don't know anyone that recommends such a practice. If one only has a 45 ACP 1911 platform and a heavier bullet gives them confidence so be it. Whether a 255 at 950 fps will kill better than a 230 at 900 is a moot point. When the nitpicking gets to that level on power shot placement is the most vital part of killing ability.
I don't shoot loads like that on a regular basis but will from time to time. I don't even shoot that type of load in the S&W but do shoot loads on the order of 780 fps with a Mihec 270 SAA bullet and 850 or so with the Magma Eng. bullet. Tjis is chrornoed vels. I have much, much, more powerful handguns if I need the power.
The 625 launch platform is also chamber in 45 Colt and people including John Linebaugh says loads of 32000 CUP is okay in them.. Seems like the 45 ACP in the same cylinder could stand loads approaching that.
But what do i know?????

[johniv]

War Eagle, I have loaded the lyman 452423 at 245 gr with 6.0 gr unique. and got 860fps . Two out of three 1911 s that I have shot them in like them ok , but one shows some distressing primer issues (extruding back into the fp hole of the slide) Lyman manuel says 6.3 gr max with a deeper seated boolit. FWIW . Back in the 70s the American Rifleman ran an article by Ed Harris loading 250 to 300 gr slugs using Blue dot. I have the article somewhere and can send it to you snail mail if ya want. Send me a PM. I really dont shoot many of them and dont like the added recoil, but ya gotta love a big flat point 245 gr slug at 45 colt velocity.

Ps The Colt that shows primer issues with that load , also does the same thing with factory +P loads . The usual warnings apply.(Yer on yer own)
John

[BWelch47]

Lyman 452423 is an excellent boolit to use in the 1911. I had a buddy(deceased 1994) who used the boolit to hunt using 7.00 grns of Unique. He once took an Alaskan Brownie with the load(his back up gun was a 500 Nitro Express). I have shot the same boolit with 6.00 grns of Unique in my Colt Series 70 1911 without any feed problems. Another source for 45 ACP loads is to look up load data for the 45 Auto Rim. (The gun my buddy used was a WWII Remington Rand 1911 with a SW adjustable sight). The only problem with using the heaver boolits is the feed of the ammo into the chamber.

[jmsj]

War Eagle,
I have had good sucess using the Lee 452-255-RF in a Taurus 1911. It has been the only bullet that this gun seems to like so far. I have been using 5.8 grains of Unique and have not had any problems (apprx. 500 roounds). I don't have a chronograph so I don't know how fast these are moving. I do know that they have much more recoil than 230 grain hardball loads and the brass flies a lot farther. I have not noticed any battering using these loads but I have always had a recoil buffer installed in this pistol.
I did not seek these loads out to make a "hot load" for this 1911 or trying to make my 1911 into a hunting pistol. I was just trying to find a load that would shoot decent groups. The "standard" recipes just weren't working out when I found some bowling pin load data and thought I'd try them out.
I have seen pictures of the Buffalo Bore load and my Lee 452-255-RF look like a copy of that load.
Good luck, jmsj

[War Eagle]

First, thanks guys!

These won't be everyday, plinking or paper punching loads. Basically, I would like to work a load up for trail carry and possibly pig hunting.

I came into a Lee 452-255 dang cheap (it and 4 other molds for $20). So basically, I have it and would like to use it...even if it is for no other reason than to say I have done it.

A couple were guessing if it is an auto or a revolver--these will be for a Kimber 1911.

Thanks for the suggestions. It looks like I am going to start with 5.0gr of Unique and slowly work up. I will update with results after I get to playing with it.

[tek4260]

Would this be a load/situation where it is safe to sub Universal for Unique?

[44MAG#1]

The bullet Buffalo Bore uses is a 250 Magma Eng. rnfp bullet. It is not the same as the Lee 255 RNFP. I have some Lee 255 bullets and some Buffalo Bore loads.
Side by side they really aren't close.

[Big Mak]

Old thread but I thought I'd share my 255 gr load experience with a newer (2014) Colt Commander.
The purpose of making these is that my .44 magnums are all too large to carry when backpacking Glacier Nat'l Park come June.
My .45 Colt Commander carries painless along with two spare mags on the other side of my belt.
I wanted a heavy, hard hitting bullet if, God forbid, I run into a bear that won't back down.

I chrono'd these loads and intentionally started off low since I am still awaiting a 20 lb spring. (Colt commander came with an 18 lb spring)

So, I cast these hard cast bullets with a Lee 452255 RF mold (RNFP)
Light powder coating, sized to .452.
My COL was 1.60, from FP to base.
Tapered crimp as the .45ACP indexes off the brass.

They functioned flawlessly on the range yesterday, I tested 3 each, with CFE Pistol powder, in the following grains.

5.0 gr-Avg FPS 621.33
5.3 gr-Avg FPS 719.33
5.6 gr-Avg FPS 755.67

Today I'm loading up 50 of them at 5.9 gr expecting close to 800 FPS, which in a 4 1/4 " barrel is quite peppy but just shy of +P with a heavy bullet.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Casting/i-L9T8gkg/0/4f7fdc74/M/20180504_170932-M.jpg

[Char-Gar]

Addendum: Since making the above post about 452423 in the 1911 pistol, I had a barrel throated by DougGuy. This enables me to seat the bullet out farther. This reduces the pressure and gives 100% positive feeding. I used 4.5/Bulleye for this load. It hits with authority.

[StrawHat]

Addendum: Since making the above post about 452423 in the 1911 pistol, I had a barrel throated by DougGuy. This enables me to seat the bullet out farther. This reduces the pressure and gives 100% positive feeding. I used 4.5/Bulleye for this load. It hits with authority.

Charles,

Thank you for posting this. I have considered having a barrel throated but I was unsure if it would help.

Kevin

[scattershot]

Here’s another great design. LBT 230 grain, feeds well in my pistols without alteration, and has a slap-em- down-and-stomp-em profile. Not a heavy bullet, per se, but worthy of consideration.

[lar45]

I’ve been playing with loading some heavy 45acp bullets off and on again for awhile and finally got back around to it again. The latest bullet is the 45-275 from Hunter’s Supply. I’ve tried it in commercial brass and have gotten them up to 1035fps with 8.7gns of BlueDot.

220039

Today I tried some TZZ Israeli Military Surplus brass and BlueDot again. I backed off the commercial brass charge by 15% and worked back up to 8.4gns which gave 947fps. I have a heavy spring in my AMT 7″ LongSlide HardBaller and the spent cases only ejected about 2′ away.
220040
This was the 25yard target.
220041

[Bigslug]

War Eagle,

I had a pretty lengthy Odyssey learning about what you CAN run in a .45 Auto, and what a .45 Auto WANTS.

I tinkered very extensively with the 452423, which you can read about here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?237958-Reliably-Feeding-the-452423-A-Science-Project

But if you look at my bold-faced edit-in addition on the first post, you can also link to the thread which outlines how I abandoned that bullet in favor of the LBT 230 grain LFN. I've since moved on to the NOE/Ranch Dog TL-230; not because I had any grief with the LBT - I just wanted something close to the same profile with the mass-production benefits of tumble lube grooves (that the design ended up with a crimp groove allowing me to run it in my .45 Colt didn't hurt either)

Your mileage may vary, but look at what I was managing for terminal performance out of 230 grains just by manipulating the alloy. Penetration is NOT a problem, even at hardball speed. The thing with cast as opposed to soft-core jacketed is that it tends to alter your notions of what "enough" metal is. I've concluded that there's enough mass in the round as Messrs. Browning and Thompson finalized it. Probably more sensible to ramp up the velocity of that a smidge than to crowd the case capacity.

[Outpost75]

^^^^^What BigSlug said!!!^^^^^

230-grain flatnosed lead at +P velocity also shoots flatter and makes it easier to score hits beyond 50 yards.

Optimum Trajectory .45 ACP +P 230-grain Flat Nose

.45 Auto (.45 ACP), Black Hills Jacketed Hollow Point + P, 230gr

Yds__Path_____Vel__Energy
0___-0.4717___950__461...Safely attainable with lubricated lead bullets in 1911 pistol without tearing up gun!
5___0.3259____945__456
10__1.0262____940__451
15__1.6281____935__446
20__2.1305____930__442
25__2.5324____925__437
30__2.8328____921__433
35__3.0307____916__428
40__3.1249____911__424
45__3.1145____907__420
50__2.9985____903__416
55__2.7758____898__412
60__2.4454____894__408
65__2.0062____890__404
70__1.4573____886__401
75__0.7975____882__397
80__0.0259____878__394...80 yard zero for ~3" maximum bullet rise over trajectory
85_-0.8585____874__390
90_-1.8569____870__386
95_-2.9703____866__383...95 yards "point blank" range at which drop doesn't exceed max. bullet rise.
100_-4.1996___862__379...+P has same energy at 100 yards that ordinary hardball does at muzzle!

[Catshooter]

When I went the 250+ route with the .45 it was because there wasn't much option (in the '70s) if you wanted a large meplat. Now I'd stick with exactly what Big Slug and Outpost are saying.


Cat

[35remington]

I find the RCBS 230 Cowboy bullet all that is needed. Nice blunt profile yet feeds well in my autoloaders. If that will not offer enough penetration I would suggest a 44 magnum revolver to offer a meaningful upgrade.