If you carry your own loads for protection . . .

[Catshooter]

I do. I use RCBS progressives for the loading by and large. I cast my own, and almost always they are Keiths. This is the procedure I go through to load mine.

I start with the primer. After they're all sunny side up in the flipper tray I exaime each and every one to see does it have an anvil? Is there priming compound behind the anvil?

I use once-fired brass. That fact (once-fired) tells me for sure that the case has properly constructed primer pocket and there is a flash hole that leads to the powder. As I feed the case into the loader I look inside it to make sure there isn't anything in there that shouldn't be (like a .22 LR case, seen that two or three times) and I also see if it has a Boxer style flash hole or is it Berdan? Then I look at the primer to make sure it isn't the small size.

The RCBS equipment I use has clear powder drop tubes and I watch the powder fall for each and every round. If I miss seeing it then I pull the case out of station four and check prior to seating a round.

When they're assembled, I wipe off each round and then drop it nose first into a plastic 50 round ammo box. There, I run a finger over each primer to both make sure it has one and that's it's seated deeply enough.

Then I seal each primer with Geroge & Roys primer sealer. This'll really show up a badly seated primer too.

That's it. Probably takes me about twice as long to load these as it does practice ammo. Practice ammo I do at about 350 rounds an hour. I don't work hard or particularly fast, just an even pace.

I have placed samples of ammo loaded this way into a small Tupperware container full of water and left them there for 90 days. They fired fine.

I think I'm covering all the bases this way. If you can think of a way to do it better let us know, would you? This is the best way I can come up with to ensure that the round will go bang when I need it to.

Oh yea, every time I change primer tubes (100) I throw a powder charge onto the scale. Boring as all get out as the RCBS measures have never, ever missed.

How do you do yours?


Cat

[9.3X62AL]

I carry factory loads for CCW, but concoct a practice/duplicator load that matches the store-boughts' ballistics pretty closely. No real argument against carrying reloads for self-protection here, I just don't due to CCW permit regulations and agency standards.

[Lee]

Excellent post. Are there really "CCW permit regulations and agency standards" ???
Elaborate please,as many folks here can benefit from this knowledge..... Thanks ..... Lee

[tomme boy]

It's more of a Liability measure for the everyday person. A good trial lawyer is going to prove that you made some kind of extra lethal round that the everyday person is not able to get. You are going to be pertrayed as this lunitick that stays in his basement and makes all of these evil rounds. Factory rounds are not good enough for you. You had to make your own that are more deadly.

I have gone to one of the best pistol courses for CCW. Massad Ayoob Lethal Forse. He teaches to use only factory ammo because of the above. He also teaches for you to write down on the box of ammo that you use the date that you loaded your mags. This way you know how old the ammo is you are carrying. If anything happens, they can get data from the manufacturer about the ammo. Also to rotate the ammo out every year at least.

Just buy some factory ammo.

[waksupi]

It's more of a Liability measure for the everyday person. A good trial lawyer is going to prove that you made some kind of extra lethal round that the everyday person is not able to get. You are going to be pertrayed as this lunitick that stays in his basement and makes all of these evil rounds. Factory rounds are not good enough for you. You had to make your own that are more deadly.

I have gone to one of the best pistol courses for CCW. Massad Ayoob Lethal Forse. He teaches to use only factory ammo because of the above. He also teaches for you to write down on the box of ammo that you use the date that you loaded your mags. This way you know how old the ammo is you are carrying. If anything happens, they can get data from the manufacturer about the ammo. Also to rotate the ammo out every year at least.

Just buy some factory ammo.

This subject has been kicked around so much, I'm surprised it can even draw a breath.

There has NEVER been a case that hinged on the loads used.

It would be more likely to fall against the factory "self defense" rounds, than the handloads. Massad is full of ****, right up to his eyebrows.

[geargnasher]

Cat, I'm not telling what's in my carry gun, and I sincerely hope no one ever has to find out, because the only way that will happen is if I have to shoot someone. Thanks for sharing your loading techniques, though, very good tips and practices there for making ammo about as reliable as can be done.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Thank you, Ric, I managed to refrain from causing a major thread derailment myself, hopefully the rest of us can, too!

Gear

[Jim]

I'm with Waksupi.

[Heavy lead]

Good on you sharing Cat, good information.

While I do not have any kind of a written procedure I do in fact refine all the time. I may carry some factory ammunition from time to time, but the only issues I've had in the last 10 years that I can recall is from factory rounds. This of course does not include when one is working up a load.
I'm darn careful check, recheck, and check again all loads at all stages whether reloading handgun ammunition on the LNL's or single stage rifle, as one never knows when defense rounds may be needed, usually it will be when you don't expect, not when you do expect it.
I simply trust my own handloads more than factory, whether they are bullets, or boolits.

[oscarflytyer]

I load ONLY factory in my concealed carry 9 mm.

IF, OTH, I ever had to get in the cabinet, I would pull out the 45 acp, and it would be stoked with my home cast 200 LSWC handloads - because they all group into one ragged hole out to 10 yards.

When we had the real bad tornadoes here, and were without power for a week, looting was happening. I had the 35 Rem and 30-30 Marlin 336s stoked, as well as the 45 (with the cast load). The 45 went with me everywhere until the power came back on.

[Catshooter]

I should have mentioned that if someone wants to post about only a fool relies on their own loads and Massad says . . . go start your own thread I don't want to hear it here please.

Heavy lead, I don't have a written procedure this is just how I do it. I got started down this road one day years ago by finding a Winchester .44 mag round with the primer inserted upside down.

Then I read an article by Ross Seyfried where he talks about doing this sort of quality control for his loads.

I depend on the 45 auto now but I've used these procedures in any caliber I was going to depend on.

So, anybody got any tips they use that I can make mine even better yet?


Cat

[izzyjoe]

i've heard this topic come up so many times, and it's B.S. if some lawyer is gona make you out to be some kind of wack job for making hotter handloads for CCW, hell just carry a 500 S&W! :o then they can say you are Crazy! :-)

[9.3X62AL]

Lee--

My agency's regs that apply to retired deputies until recently were identical to those for citizen CCW holders--"floor" caliber (32) and no single action systems. The End.

A number of things changed when H.R. 218 came online a few years back--mandatory quals every year, and retired folks now have to carry the same approved sideiron and ammunition as active duty folks. There's not a whole lot out there in sidearms my agency DOESN'T approve, and has now brought 1911A1s on board too. I don't make the rules, and try not to break them either.

I did not mean to imply ANY disapproval of use of handloads for self-defense. Total non-issue for me, and for the District Attorney's Office I worked alongside while doing shooting & homicide investigations. The question of "handload vs. factory load" never came up. At all. Period. I don't know how Massad Ayoob's ammo drivel ever got the currency and traction it now enjoys, but New Hampshire might be more tolerant of dilettantes and posers than other areas of the country.

If someone is all worried about some lawyer dreaming up Chainsaw Massacre Courtroom Dramatics.......just carry the same ammo your local agencies use for service. Right now, my old shop (and much of the rest of the State of California) issues the plain-wrap WWB JHP, which is in all respects IDENTICAL to the Ranger SXT ammo that WW sells for twice as much coin in the pretty multi-colored packaging and uber-cool cartridge trays. My old shop test-fires samples from every lot received, it's the same stuff. W-W ad people talk more s--t than a Mexicali radio station--or Massad Ayoob.

[Duckiller]

Al, you obviously have been to New Hampshire! They are definitely different.

[armoredman]

I carry 9mm 115 gr JHP, the Remington load. I haven't gotten my hollow point mold done yet, but I would likely still carry factory ammo. That's just me.
NMow I would like to work up a load with a home cast HP that expands reliably and works well, we'll see when we get there.

[Adam10mm]

I don't do any different than any other ammunition. My range ammunition is loaded the same as carry ammunition.

BTW, unless you're planning on carrying your gun in 30 feet of water, primer sealant is a waste.

[9.3X62AL]

Yo, Freek! LTNS.

[Catshooter]

Al,

What's LTNS mean? And tell us now, do you really run with scissors? :)


Cat

[ss40_70]

ltns ='s long time no see

[Catshooter]

Thanks ss40.

freak,

Al's right, I haven't seen you post in a while either.

On the primer sealant subject, if I could predict that for sure it would be a waste and I would never, ever need it's help then I wouldn't use it. 'Course, if I was that good I wouldn't need to ever be armed either.

You're probably right, but it's my time to waste.


Cat

[tomme boy]

Sorry, but the ? was asked about Dept. protocal. I don't see ANY Dept using reloads for duty guns other than practice. I suppose no one here has an umbrella insurance policy either. I am going to protect me an my family with the best tools and information I can find and use.

[Adam10mm]

Yo, Freek! LTNS.

Thanks ss40.

freak,

Al's right, I haven't seen you post in a while either.
Been busy lately. Don't get much time to come over here anymore.


On the primer sealant subject, if I could predict that for sure it would be a waste and I would never, ever need it's help then I wouldn't use it. 'Course, if I was that good I wouldn't need to ever be armed either.

You're probably right, but it's my time to waste.


Cat
Exactly right. If it gives you piece of mind, I'm all for it then. Practically it makes no difference. At practical every day environments, no water will seep between the primer cup and the pocket wall. BTW, use clear nail polish rather than commercial sealant. Does the same thing and costs a fraction.

[troy_mclure]

I don't do any different than any other ammunition. My range ammunition is loaded the same as carry ammunition.

BTW, unless you're planning on carrying your gun in 30 feet of water, primer sealant is a waste.

or you live in a hot, humid, rainy environment.

[Adam10mm]

Still isn't going to happen over a short period of time.

[beex215]

you guys are lucky. i carry around an empty gun hoping to scare the robbers and would be's away.

[Wayne Smith]

Cat, I have now, three separate times, accidentally, had BP loaded 44-40 rounds in the water and soap and ceramic media in my vibatory massager for a couple of hours. I had one go through the clothes washer in a pocket. All have fired. No primer sealer, no bullet sealer. I have gained immense confidence in normal reloading practices!

[Geraldo]

Sorry, but the ? was asked about Dept. protocal. I don't see ANY Dept using reloads for duty guns other than practice. I suppose no one here has an umbrella insurance policy either. I am going to protect me an my family with the best tools and information I can find and use.

As J.B. Books said, "carry whatever makes you feel comfortable". Without bashing any instructor, I will tell you this: don't buy into any one guy or his system. I've been to a number of schools, and in the end shooting is about sight picture and trigger control.

Also, don't buy into "what the department uses" unless you're required to. The main consideration on department issued ammo might have nothing to do with statistics, the design of the bullet, or the cool picture on the box and everything to do with how much it costs. There are some exceptions, but "lowest bidder" on all things municiple is pretty common.

I live in a hot, humid, rainy envoronment, and I don't have any problems with ammo that hasn't had its primers sealed. I've run so many rounds through the washer after range days that I lost count, and they always go 'bang'. Not that I recommend the practice, just saying that milspec probably isn't necessary unless you're a combat swimmer or SEAL.

[largom]

Have'nt bought any factory ammo for 40 yrs.

Larry

[Jim]

As J.B. Books said, "carry whatever makes you feel comfortable". Without bashing any instructor, I will tell you this: don't buy into any one guy or his system. I've been to a number of schools, and in the end shooting is about sight picture and trigger control. ....

Amen, brother, Amen!!

[10 ga]

Sight picture and trigger control = hit your target! That is #1 and the single most important thing. After that there are lots of variables and that = choices. My CCW is a "wheel gun", NEVER had a function problem shut that down. 10 ga

[Adam10mm]

Sorry, but the ? was asked about Dept. protocal. I don't see ANY Dept using reloads for duty guns other than practice.
The topic is "your own loads". This can be reloaded brass or new brass. The OP states he uses fired brass. Some think that's some second rate brass, but the point is it's been fired once and has proven itself reliable. Can't say that for new brass.


I suppose no one here has an umbrella insurance policy either.
I don't have one. In my state, self defense shooting does not allow anyone to sue the shooter for damages caused to criminals.

[pdawg_shooter]

It would be more likely to fall against the factory "self defense" rounds, than the handloads. Massad is full of ****, right up to his eyebrows.

+1 on this!

[ss40_70]

along with most people here i do not buy hardly any factory ammunition , and i have never bought any of the very expensive premium ammo , but i question reliability , what is most likely to be more reliable , ammunition that you carefully craft by hand ,double and triple checking to make sure everything is just right and exactly how you want it , or ammuntition thats mass produced on a machine , over the years i can think of just 1-2 rounds ive made that have failed to fire , i cant say that about factory ammo ..... and as another note i also feel that any person who does reload and still thinks that factory ammo is more reliable needs to question thier loading methods and likely quit doing it altogether as they are doing something very wrong

[ole 5 hole group]

catshooter - Looks to me you've pretty well covered the bases. Since you choose to seal the cartridge, maybe you'll want to look into a product called A1062 Permabond (bullet & primer). The only drawback is you need to order at least one (1) liter and I don't know the self life but one liter should last a couple lifetimes for the average reloader.

[Catshooter]

Mmmm. Permabond, eh? I'll check it out, thanks ole 5.


Cat

[Blammer]

I'd run the loaded ammo through a cartridge headspace gauge too.

[Catshooter]

Oh yea Blammer, I forgot to mention that step. I drop them into a pistol barrel individually to make sure of chambering. Duh Cat.


Cat

[firefly1957]

I not only use my concealed carry pistols for my self defense but also for pest control around the property it gives good practice. My reloading procedure is always the same I use cast bullets a lot in 1911 for around the property and some times in town. I also shoot same loads in Sig p-245 but use Corbon for carry. I also have a P-220 (Browning BDA) that will not shoot cast is has a bore dia. of .453 it does shoot jacketed bullets well. All these are 45acp caliber I also have a sometimes carry other calibers especially while hunting. I also have been swaging bullets but have not been happy with the results yet. Mostly because of inconsistent accuracy if I get that worked out I will carry them for self defense. ( some of these have compressed shot cores)

[Catshooter]

firefly,

With a bore of .453 I would want a .454 boolit. I've a Smith revolver with a .455 bore and it loves .456 boolit. I bought an older Lyman mold, a 454424 and it drops wheel weight boolits at .457. I shoot them as cast.


Cat

[9.3X62AL]

This subject can generate a little heat, though I didn't intend to do so with my remarks. I'm limited by the documents I sign at time of qualification, and abide by that "promise". I suspect most citizen CCW regulations are not as restrictive. One limitation affecting me is the requirement to carry that (expletives deleted) 9mm 147 grain sub-sonic ammunition. I don't trust its ability to stop determined assailants--so I don't carry a 9mm any more.

[Catshooter]

Don't worry Al, I don't think you generated any heat. It was already there!

My CCW regs are bit more relaxed, from the sounds of it than yours. I can't carry past a metal detector (and I think you can), into a bar or a couple of other places that I never go to.

I can't carry a full auto or a supressor. That's about it. I can carry any caliber handgun and any knife I want and I have an excellent Castle Doctrine to back me up.

I understand your position perfectly. It's a pity that California has changed so much around guys like you over the years.

Please never hesitate to post in any thread of mine.


Cat

[firefly1957]

Catshooter I have tried larger bullets in the .453 bore of my BDA and it has a tight camber to boot so as I start getting good accuracy I also start getting cartridges that will not chamber!!! It really does not matter as I do not shoot that pistol very often it is mostly a "house" gun for protecting the home and family.

9.3X62 I feel for you guys in Kali. Here we are limited to concealed carry of a "pistol" other than that it is pretty much our choice. I think muzzle loaders are even legal now they were not when the law first allowed shall issue carry permits.

[9.3X62AL]

Is that "BDA" the SIG-Sauer P-220? Most of the SIGs I've slugged were right on the dot @ .451". Sounds like an aftermarket barrel for castings might make life easier. Bar-Sto should have one.

Yeah, you learn to work around a lot of the silliness that California erects in the paths of free people. Not quite a Berlin Wall, yet. A wall along the southern border might be in order, but that's a whole 'nuther thread. :)

[pdawg_shooter]

I dont have a CCW permit, never have had one. When I feel the need to carry, I do so. Paying a fee and needing a permit to exercise my second amendment rights is just wrong.

[bobthenailer]

I recently switched to the barnes tac self defence bullets , this bullets are loaded by Corbon & Wilson in factory ammo . $35.00 + for 20 rounds. i use corbon once fired casings , which i clean & size first and then polish, then i load them with the barnes tac bullets and no one is the wiser looks just like factory ammo , I have also done this with speer gold dots useing once fired speer casings. now with the barnes bullets i can have 40 rounds for less than 20 rounds of factory costs , and in the case of the gold dots i can 100 for almost the same price of 20 rounds of factory ammo.
at one time for liability/ lawyer concequences only factory was recomended ! but of late this has changed . as almost no one was convicted because they used reloaded ammo. in a self defense seniaro .

[ole 5 hole group]

Mmmm. Permabond, eh? I'll check it out, thanks ole 5. Cat


It's pretty spendy stuff and this particular chemical is manufactured in Europe I believe to their standards, much like their standards for Castrol oil synthetic.

I stand corrected as to the minimum order – it’s 500ML and the cost is $94.00 and it will take approximately one month to receive your order, as there’s no USA distributor that I’m aware of that stocks this particular product.

This company will order it for you: Concept Chemicals TX# 267-684-1038.

http://www.permabond.com/pdf/MKT_Munitions_rev2.pdf

[Catshooter]

Tight chamber and big bore, bad combo. Oh well. Not all problems are easily fixable.


Cat

[firefly1957]

9.3X62 yes it is a early Sig p-220 Imported as a Browning BDA it shoots fine with JACKETED BULLETS just will not shoot soft lead bullets. I have never tried hard cast in it I did try Speer swaged and soft cast with very poor luck it is factory stock and I have read articles that .453 bore was common for that time (1981). The gun also has the magazine release on the bottom of the clip/frame not on the frame like current Sig P-220's. I do not shoot the gun much it is mainly a "house gun" all things considered right now I could use the Mini-14 in .223 rem. just as well or even a 30-06 or 12 ga. I am isolated and am as likely to use the house gun on a wild animal more than anything else.

[9.3X62AL]

Those BDAs are some of SIG-Sauer's best work. I know of one owned by a friend in 30 Luger. He never shoots it, and can't be talked out of it to date. Another of those "collector value" addicts. Poor soul. I would give the pistol a much better life--as it is now, the sitch is like keeping a fine thoroughbred in a stable on hobbles.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I use once fired nickel plated brass. I order it sorted so that they are all the same headstamp. I tumble, size/de-prime then clean the primer pockets out. For the .40 S+W I will use a little case lube and run them through the bulge buster then back through the tumbler. I will also check the powder charge every 50 rounds. Everything else is pretty much my standard loading routine.

I recently bought a Glock 27 (40 S+W). I bought a couple boxes of factory defense rounds to check function and give me a benchmark to work up some loads. Those will probably be the last boxes that I buy.

[garym1a2]

I use my standard Glock 9mm load of a 120TC boolit at 1180 fps. It has shown good reliability in USPA events and pratice. It may not be the most powerful round but the gun goes bang everytime and most rounds hit the target. Plus the gun carries 17 of them.
If I find a bad guy wanting to kill me the last thing I worry about is being sued or jailed.

[Catshooter]

If I find a bad guy wanting to kill me the last thing I worry about is being sued or jailed.

Especially here in Florida!


Cat

[Bret4207]

at one time for liability/ lawyer concequences only factory was recomended ! but of late this has changed . as almost no one was convicted because they used reloaded ammo. in a self defense seniaro .

With respect Bob, it's not "almost no one", it's NO ONE. There has never been a documented case that I have been able to find involving a scenario like Massad Ayoob laid out, that a prosecutor would argue you used reloaded ammo that was more deadly than factory. It's pure, unadulterated hogwash that Ayood invented out of some idea he had. With all due respect to those that worship at the feet of Ayoob, keep in mind the guy is a writer and professional witness and part time rent a cop. If you feel obligated to follow his advice, that's great, do as you please. But please don't expect those of us that have dealt with him to fall all over ourselves in fawning worship of his ill considered statement on this subject.

[square butte]

Morning Bret and everyone. Have always wondered about this senario. Using ammo such as Winchester Ranger T series or Federal HST - Both of which are marked LE on the box Usually sold to Law enforcement agencies - But currently sold to civilians and legal to be sold to civillians. According the Ammo sales folks ,the manufacturers just prefer it to be sold to LE. What are your thoughts on it's use for personel defense and the ramifications of such use.

[Catshooter]

Bret,

It is also well to keep in mind that Ayoob was (maybe still is, I don't know) very financally connected to the Cor Bon ammo company.

My opinion is that money is what is behind all the hype for the "high tech" ammo. Maybe not everyone, some just jump on the band wagon 'cause it's rolling by and they can't stand alone. Sort of like prescription drugs and Doctors. The whole clan benifits if they all drink the same koolaid, so they do.


Cat

[Bret4207]

Morning Bret and everyone. Have always wondered about this senario. Using ammo such as Winchester Ranger T series or Federal HST - Both of which are marked LE on the box Usually sold to Law enforcement agencies - But currently sold to civilians and legal to be sold to civillians. According the Ammo sales folks ,the manufacturers just prefer it to be sold to LE. What are your thoughts on it's use for personel defense and the ramifications of such use.

I have no idea if there is any more potential problem with that ammo than using standard RN or reloads or home cast. I haven't been able to find any criminal or civil case where the type of ammo resulted in an argument by the prosecution that there was additional malice, or whatever term you might use, involved int he shooting. If it was a reasonable and supportable case to make, then every police shooting would result in a similar type of case being made, that the police used "extra deadly" ammo or some such thing. If it's not used against the deep pockets of a public agency, then whats to think it would be used against an individual? The only case I can see being made is by the loudmouth idiot that is stupid enough to be recorded or otherwise be documented claiming he is using or loading "ultra deadly" ammo and that he wants to use it. If you're dumb enough to do that , you deserve whatever you get.

[EMC45]

I have always said Ayoob is a shill for the ammo companies. It is sounding like I was right all these years....I carry handloads in my defense guns. I carry cast in my .32 S&W-Ls and my .38s. I am always super careful (check, check, check) all my handloads.

[Catshooter]

Almost all of the writers are shills. They may not start out that way but they sure end up there.

Of course there are a couple of exceptions, a couple.


Cat

[pdawg_shooter]

I have read Ayoob off and on for years and I have found very little I agree with him on. Self defense ammo is not the only thing he is full of shineolla on. IMHO.

[Buddy]

I only keep 500rnds of self defense ammo. If I need more than that in a handgun I let someone get way too close. All are new resized nickle brass. I go thru all the precautionary steps when assembling my loads. Last but not least, I pull the barrel from my Colt 1911A1 and do the "plunk" test. Everyone of them had better fall into the chamber flush. Then I store them in plastic ammo boxes marked "self defense loads". 80rnds go into magazines just in case. By the way my gun shoots fantastic and runs like the proverbial Singer sewing machine with Speer Gold Dots.

[9.3X62AL]

I'll stifle my commentary on the gunscribe under discussion here. I already got tossed from another board for daring to not genuflect properly in The Presence. He was all right with me back-and-forth, but the acolytes and choir members exiled me to the hinterlands.

There are no "magic bullets". While matters have come some distance from the 1960s, the plain truth remains that while internal and external ballistics are hard sciences--terminal ballistics is still little more than guesswork and a poorly-understood art form. Expansion, penetration, disabling effects.......you pays your money and takes your chances. This flies in the face of the ammo gurus' ads and propaganda, but I was among those folks in the E.R.s and the autopsy rooms that saw actual bullet performance--and ANYONE predicting bullet performance with any reliability is talking out their derriere. There are too many variables in the equation to even start quantifying outcomes in this venue. The mountain men of the 1830s knew largely the same data we know--when it comes to bullets/round balls--bigger is better--faster is better--and heavier is better. The End. Laws of physics get no plea bargains. There is no free lunch--45 ACPs recoil more than 9mms. Expansion is less of a pipe dream than it was 50 years ago, but I wouldn't take it to the bank. FWIW, my most common carry calibers are the 40 S&W/180 SXT and 357 Magnum/158 JHP.

[Catshooter]

I agree 100% Al.

I followed the 'more beans will make up for less caliber' mantra myself for about 12 years. No more though I'm back to where I started: .45 ACP.

I've taken advantage of the improvements in firearms technology. My home defense pistol has a flashlight, holds fifteen 45s and weighs one ounce more than the 1911, but it is loaded with home cast Keiths.

Makes me happy! :)


Cat

[Bret4207]

To be clear, I enjoy much of Ayoobs writing. I just object to some of the claims he has made. We've been down this road before and i certainly don't begrudge the man making a living. It's just that one blurb he made that has caused so much ruckus that gets me.

[bob208]

after skelton,keth and cooper. ayoobs is a wantabe.

i carry skelton loads in my pistols and don't worry about it.

[9.3X62AL]

To be clear, I enjoy much of Ayoobs writing. I just object to some of the claims he has made. We've been down this road before and i certainly don't begrudge the man making a living. It's just that one blurb he made that has caused so much ruckus that gets me.

That could be considered "Massad Ayoob's Zumbo Moment".

[Recluse]

That could be considered "Massad Ayoob's Zumbo Moment".

You know what? I'll go with that.

Probably about ten years or go, maybe less, I had some go arounds with him on another board that is/was extremely popular with a staggering number of members.

I dared make the mistake of calling into question a scenario in which Ayoob testified on behalf of a diminutive female FBI agent (gender discrimination case) and the result was a lowering of the standards.

It got heated and I got booted from the board when I began stating names of other (federal) agents I had personally worked with or trained with who testified against the diminutive agent. The FBI actually lost the case and there is little to no love loss for Ayoob with the agents of that era.

Getting booted from the board was no big deal. Moderators were kool-aid drinkers and keyboard cops.

BUT, Ayoob went through the trouble to get my e-mail address from one of the moderators, contacted me and we actually had several telephone conversations in which he presented me "the other side of the story" and why he testified the way he did.

While I still didn't necessarily agree with him, the man was forthright and honest and even though I emphasized that I had been out of the badge & gun business for a long time and had zero desire to ever even get near it again, he went to gentlemanly lengths to make sure that I knew why he had chosen the course he had.

Regardless of what anyone may think of the man, THAT impressed me and I told him so.

He stood to gain absolutely nothing by talking with me, but his conviction and passion for HIS beliefs were strong enough that he wanted to make sure another avid pro-gunner understood where he was coming from during that trial.

For those of us who shoot regularly and who grew up around guns and especially those of us with military and/or LE backgrounds, Ayoob really doesn't offer us that much.

But for folks who are either new to guns, lifelong city-dwellers, etc., what Ayoob teaches (self-defense awareness and tactics) really can't be honestly criticized.

My mantra is that it's the result that counts more so than the method. Lot of shooting methods out there and they are always changing and evolving and morphing. At the end of the day, there are a lot of ways to get the bullet onto or into the target. Ayoob has his own methods of teaching folks to get to that point.

So while I adamantly disagree with his stance on handloads, I'll absolute state that at least from my dealing with the man, he is a gentleman of honor and integrity and he is definitely good for the Second Amendment.

:coffee:

[Catshooter]

[QUOTE

So while I adamantly disagree with his stance on handloads, I'll absolute state that at least from my dealing with the man, he is a gentleman of honor and integrity and he is definitely good for the Second Amendment.

:coffee:[/QUOTE]


I'll agree with you there too young man, err, mostly anyway. I could be wrong (no, don't laugh, it has happened before) but I still think his stance on handloads is the shill in him coming out. Maybe that's all the shill he's got in him. Maybe he doesn't personnaly have anything financially to do with Cor Bon any longer and maybe he's just agreed with the party line of 'you must carry hollowpoints, and the more expensive, the better'.


Cat

[Rangefinder]

I've been in this discussion more times than I can count--and I can count pretty high when I'm bored... If a judge and jury are going to pay more attention to the manufacture of the round I hypothetically use to put some waste of flesh enacting life-threatening danger on me/my family/anyone than the act that caused me to put him down or the potential outcome had I not... Well, then the system and the people involved are already a lost cause and I'm not too worried about what they have to say at that point anyway.

Someone please find a precedence where the use of hand-loaded ammo in self-defense has been used against the defender successfully.

All things considered, most of our local "barneys" here are lucky to know the thing that does the damage comes out of the hole in the front and the investigators would have difficulty finding their own **** with both hands and a good map. The chances they'd ever even realize what I used was a reload is next to nil--god help them if I'm carrying swagged 9mm case 40S&W JHP's. They'd probably tell me someone else must have shot the guy since they found 9mms in him--case and all--and I carry a .40 S&W...

[cajun shooter]

First allow me to say for those who don't know is that I was a long time Police Officer/Firearms Instructor and Sniper. I testified in trials that concerned Police shootings as a expert witness.
Not One TIME WAS THE AMMO USED BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE JURY BY THE PROSECUTION!!
I'm sorry but at the age of 64 I have meet a few of the speakers who make their living telling other cops how to do the job and go home safe. Massad Ayoob has caused me to utter profane words more than once over my lifetime. I thought by now that he would have went to some small town where he could spread his BS around the local coffee shop.
For the most part he reminds me of a saying about when you see a man wearing cowboy boots which I have worn most of my life. I have raised cows and horses and milked in the morning. "The saying is that a real cowboy has the horse **** on the outside of his boots"
I would at times use some of his printing as a class subject on what is wrong with his suggestions.
In the 70's and early 80's the police writers were every where and the one I most respected after getting to talk with him was Bill Jordan. Skeeter never got around to my location but he was another.
They had two idiots who wrote a book that was full of advise from Ayoob, at least that was in the foreword. If in the dark and entering a dark room take your flashlight and roll it into the room across the floor to expose any hidden felon's. That was a gut buster. Now you are with out a light and to get it back you have to expose yourself.
On the ammo, my department issued fresh ammo twice a year at each training session. There are plenty of men that I would rather have by my side in a firefight than Mr. Ayoob!!

[Bret4207]

Al, as usual you hit the nail on the head! Good observation friend.

Recluse, my opinion wasn't as high as yours. When you ask a guy just how much time he actually has as a street cop and he wants to send you his educational records...well, it's kinda like Cajun noted about just which side of the boots the manure is on. I have no doubt he's a great guy, but anyone in the business of self inflation is going to stick their toe into the wrong bucket from time to time.

[alamogunr]

This is somewhat off topic, and I'm not former law enforcement, so I can't offer advice based on experience.

Sometime back I bought a GB mold produced by Old West. It was a full wadcutter, 250 gr. It just looked mean and I thought it would be a good carry boolet for my S&W 696. I would be substituting weight and frontal area for velocity. The flat front would already be half-way to an expanded hollow point from a lesser caliber.

I never gave much thought to how a court would look on a handload using this boolet. If I had to use it locally, I doubt there would be any problem. By locally I mean in Tennessee. I don't think there are that many politically ambitious prosecutors in this state. I stay out of the big cities as much as possible anyway.

[Char-Gar]

I am always surprised when this topic surfaces, again and again. Somebody need to drive a stake through the heart of the notion that the use of handloads for self defense places one at jeopardy of criminal or civil liability.

The whole notion was without foundation when it was first uttered decades ago, and still has no legal foundation today. How does this nonsense hang on so long?

[Bret4207]

This is somewhat off topic, and I'm not former law enforcement, so I can't offer advice based on experience.

Sometime back I bought a GB mold produced by Old West. It was a full wadcutter, 250 gr. It just looked mean and I thought it would be a good carry boolet for my S&W 696. I would be substituting weight and frontal area for velocity. The flat front would already be half-way to an expanded hollow point from a lesser caliber.

I never gave much thought to how a court would look on a handload using this boolet. If I had to use it locally, I doubt there would be any problem. By locally I mean in Tennessee. I don't think there are that many politically ambitious prosecutors in this state. I stay out of the big cities as much as possible anyway.

Wadcutters are target boolits designed for punching holes in paper targets unlike hollow points that are designed to expand and kill. What's your worry?

[Catshooter]

Char-Gar,

It refuses to die because an "authority" (Ayoob) has uttered the words. Most people would rather die than think so they love words from an "authority". No thinking required thereafter.

Don't blame me for it, I didn't say the "words" and it's thread drift anyway. :)


Cat

[alamogunr]

Wadcutters are target boolits designed for punching holes in paper targets unlike hollow points that are designed to expand and kill. What's your worry?

Didn't really have a worry. Just passing on my thoughts.

[Char-Gar]

Cat... There are millions and millions of folks who swallow the hook on various religious authority figures, many of whom are charlatans.

You are correct, there is something in human nature that dislikes the hard work of thinking and deciding, so it is easier to let others do that for you. Sometimes this is harmless, but often it is disastrous.

I don't begrudge any man the right to make a living and develop a business. I do begrudge a man the right to do that putting out false information and misleading people in order to profit. That is never right and always wrong. Caveat Emptor is an indictment on the bad side of human nature.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I look at it this way there are lots of things i would tell people to do that help prevent error in both my work and other things, that i may not do myself.

yes i work circuits hot some times, do i recommend any one else do it no , but it is my choice and i am more than educated enough to know the risks i take and the consequences

if you were buying your first gun , and going to carry it for the first time i would absolutely tell you to carry a well known brand of SD ammo and mark the date on the box for rotation.

when your much more experienced , experienced enough to say why shouldn't i use my reloads i am 5k without a failure and i can hardly go 1k without a failure of factory rounds then you have the experience to take on that liability your self.

we do all sorts of things in life were , we accept risk , that we might otherwise tell someone else not to take. It is up to us to know the risk and the consequences of our actions.

[9.3X62AL]

Mr. Ayoob was quite gracious with me during our discussion as well. He is a gentleman, and an articulate one at that. But based on my experience, his stance on handloaded ammo for SD is not borne out by real-world results.

This subject DOES come up quite frequently. Clearly, a lot of folks are concerned about a comprehensive answer. Horror stories on either side of the issue serve no good purpose. But to echo Cajun Shooter's text--not once at any point during the investigation--staffing--charging--or prosecution of a shooting matter of any kind--fatal or non-fatal--did the subject of "reload vs. factory ammo" or bullet/ammo type come into question. I was often the expert witness called upon for ballistics/trajectory/nomenclature questions--so it would have been me handling such issues. They were non-events, just did not happen.

On the civil side, citizen- and officer-involved shootings seldom went past initial hearings, unless EGREGIOUS wrong-doing was part of the picture. If so, a Federal civil rights violation was alleged, and that was outside my experience as an expert witness. The assailant's homeboys and baby-mama got between $5-$15K to go away, and they snapped that up like kids on cookies at a day-care center.

[BruceB]

Personally, I've tilted at this windmill too many times already.

I've loaded hundreds of thousands of cartridges.

I trust my ammunition implicitly.

By choice, I carry factory-loaded ammunition for self-defense (CCW) purposes (handloads in the boonies, though, for critters).

I have given up arguing with friends and correspondents about the issue, and about the bona fides of Mr. Ayoob. I respect his accomplishments, and have seen radical improvement in my own performance from following advice from the gentleman.

No one here is going to change anyone else's mind by flapping gums at each other....we all have hard-and-fast opinions.

[Bret4207]

Didn't really have a worry. Just passing on my thoughts.

I was just trying to point out that in the particular issue mentioned, that of loading ammo "deadlier" than "normal", your wadcutters would fall into the target load category, not the SD or hunting category to 99% of people out there, even though we know better.

[alamogunr]

I guess my next question has to be, is the only boolet that qualifies for self defense a hollow point or a Keith?

This is the wadcutter I was referring to:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=35783&highlight=full+wadcutter

[Charley]

This subject has been beaten, and beaten, and beaten somemore. Nobody is ever going to agree. Here's my .02, take it for what it's worth to you.

First, my quailifications, or disqualifications. I'm not now, and have never been an LEO. I'm not an attorney, and try to have as little contact with then as is practical in today's society. I HAVE been involved in several civil actions as a defendant, due to my work and a vehicle accident. I've also pulled jury duty several times over the years.

I do not now believe that using handloads for defense will make it more likely you will be targeted for prosecution. Most DAs and their staffs are way to busy to even consider such a minor piece of the overall picture in a self defense situation. That's the good news.

The bad news begins with a question. How many of you have been a defendant in a civil action? If you haven't, I'd suggest you look at the idea of handloads a bit differently. A DA/Prosecuter isn't going to care one way or another. An ambulance chasing personal injury bottomfeeder is going to look closely at EVERYTHING he can use to influence the jury that his client was wrongfully harmed by ANY selfdefense action you took, even if it was a lawful action. ( Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I know the defendant was within the law when he hit my client, but he hit him too hard!). Most folks on juries aren't very well versed in firearms, or handloading, or selfdefense issues. They can be easily swayed.

If your state has immunity from civil action for bodily injury done in self defense (mine does), you most likely have nothing to worry about....you can use anything from an icepick to a .50 caliber Browning and not have a problem. On the other hand, if your state doesn't have immunity from civil action stemming from self defense (often part of the so called "castle doctrine), you might want to reconsider your choices of ammunition and statements about certain people being full of s**t. The US isn't homogenous. What is not an issue in one location in the country can get you hammered in another.

Mrs Charley and I haven't worked our collective butts off for 40 years to give our estate to a slimeball we end up shooting so he won't assualt or rob us, or his attorney.
Just some thoughts, but might be something to consider.

[DLCTEX]

If your state doesn't have the castle doctrine, it's time to push for it. Get involved in passing this common sense law.

[cajun shooter]

This is a point that I meant to include in my first posting and I got on to Ayoob.
The first and biggest thing you have to worry about is did you have probable cause to use deadly force at the shooting.
I have been sued in so many civil cases in the courts of Louisiana concerning the act of shooting and killing a felon, unlawful arrest, unlawful use of deadly force and several other smaller cases. In fact that is one of the largest reasons that I walked away from being a LEO after 15 years.
This is off subject but was brought up. I was at home and off duty when I had a knock at my door. It was a neighbor who stated that he saw 4 Iranians dragging a deer into the apartment they lived in. This being March and deer season being closed for months, I went to see. I had my ID and advised the man who came to the door that I was a cop. I asked him if he or his buddies had dragged a deer into the apartment after fully advising them of the game laws and the penalties for such actions. They took me by my arm and led me to the deer.They had it in the bathtub as it was still bleeding and had no head. They cut the head off because it was a doe but failed to take care of the other identifying end as to what sex she was.
I placed them under arrest and called for a Wildlife and Fisheries Agent to come to the scene. Long story short none were available and I had to handle the entire case. This also included finding a charity for the meat.
When the case was to go to trial I found out that one of my hunters was some type of Shaw in Iran going to LSU on a student Visa. The DA dropped the charges saying that I had failed to properly advise them of the Miranda Warning and after doing so making sure that they understood them. They were all 3rd year students in this country.
This is were it really gets sad as they sued me and my department for $50,000 for illegal detainment and were paid!! Don't understand why some cops have a bad attitude?

[John Ross]

On another board I once posted this:

I believe the main issue with handloads is that with no factory-spec ammo to test, the forensic boffins will not be able to give a proper estimate of HOW FAR AWAY the shooter was from the shootee when he pulled the trigger. If that question is a key element of the police investigation, handloads will cause you serious problems. Most SD shootings occur at five to seven FEET. If the shooter is a cashier at a liquor store, and the dead guy is lying on the floor six inches from the counter that the register is sitting on, no sane person is going to claim the cashier somehow shot him from 50 feet away.

The goal in a SD shooting is not to have the attacker die at some point, but to INSTANTLY INCAPACITATE the attacker, so he CANNOT continue his attack. Plenty of cops have been killed by BGs who had fatal wounds but were NOT incapacitated for the short time needed to squeeze the trigger and kill the cop. May, 1986 with the FBI in Miami, anyone?

In 1964 in St. Louis, there was an incident that we would now call a carjacking/kidnapping, where a BG with a knife forced a woman parked at a supermarket to drive him around in her car while he rifled her purse and looked for other ways to steal money to buy drugs. The woman tried to alert others to her predicament, but for over an hour no one noticed, including the attendant when she stopped for gas.

Finally, a police officer saw the car being driven erratically, and pulled the car over. The woman jumped out of the car and ran. The officer drew his gun on the guy in the passenger seat, and ordered him out of the car. The man complied, then lunged at the officer, and the officer shot him. The wounded BG grabbed the officer's .38 revolver with both hands and took it away from him. The officer ran to his patrol car to radio for help, and the BG fired two shots at him. The officer radioed for help, then collapsed in the street.

The station sent out a call that said "police officer in need of aid, supposedly shot."

Two officers close by responded to the call. One began to aid the fallen officer and the other chased the wounded BG into the area of the Pruitt Igoe housing project, exchanging shots with said BG.

Then another officer, from the canine unit, arrives at the housing project. He and the cop giving chase decide to circle the building from opposite sides to get the BG. The first cop giving chase hears a shot, and then rounds the corner and comes face to face with the BG. Officer and BG fire at the same time. Officer's bullet hits BG in the chest, BG's shot penetrates cop's left forearm, ricochets off the badge on his chest, and hits his right hand, causing him to drop his gun. The twice-wounded BG staggers off.

Yet another cop sees this exchange of gunfire and fires 6 shots at the BG. TWO MORE cops (one of them a Project policeman) join in the shooting and BG falls down from his wounds and is arrested.

More officers arrive and find the canine officer on the other side of the building, DOA of a gunshot to the head. BG survives.

A BG with a knife gets shot, THEN takes the .38 away from the officer that shot him, and wounds two officers and kills one more with the remaining 5 rounds in the gun.

The dead canine officer leaves a widow and four children, one of them a 12-year-old boy.

The boy grows up and goes to work for the government. He is strongly anti-gun and spoke out often, both in print and on television, against Concealed Carry in Missouri during the twelve years it took us to get it passed. What is his position in the government, you ask?

He's our Prosecuting Attorney.

If he ever prosecutes ME for using ammo that is "too powerful" in a self-defense shooting, my lawyer is going to put him on the stand, make him read aloud the official police report of his father's death, and then ask him what would have happened if the officer who first shot his father's killer had been using a more powerful gun/ammo combo...

================================================== ============

The very next post in the thread was from Massad Ayoob. He had this to say:

"In one case, NJ v. Danial Bias, the attorneys who defended him through three trials both told me they felt he would not have been convicted if he hadn't had handloads in the death weapon. It was one of those forensic issues that John Ross just mentioned.

"In several years of such debates, no one has ever been able to show me a case where the court DID take the handloader's word for what was in the gun at the time of the shooting, when gunshot residue testing to determine distance became a pivotal issue in the case.

"That's the main reason I wouldn't want handloads in my defense guns. None of us can predict the circumstances of a shooting before it happens, nor the issues that will arise from it in court. I agree with John Ross that the power issue is an easy one for the defense to handle."

[Ed K]

So John I guess your point is use a 500S&W with factory ammo?

Still probably wise to avoid Black Talons though ;)

[John Ross]

So John I guess your point is use a 500S&W with factory ammo?



Yes on the .500, no on the factory ammo, unless it's the MagSafe frangible round. Far too likely risk of shoot-through with anything else. If the .500 Alley Cleaner bullet in the Active Group Buys performs as I think it will, I'm going to try to get one of the ammo companies to load it.

Seriously.

[Char-Gar]

Prosecutors, Judges, Juries and everybody else comes into the Court Room with their life experiences, politics, prejudices, and agendas. These all intermix and will color the final results. Until we have trial by computer, this will be the case.

When it is all over, folks are left to guess why things fell they way they did. It is all guess work and most often folks guess in ways that leave themselves blameless.

In the New Jersey case cited by Ayoob, the guessing, reflection and ruminations of the defense attorney have zero value in determining anything of substance. It certainly does not prove Ayoob's point nor provide any kind of foundation for not using handloads for self defense.

My gut tells me Ayoob is grasping at straws to fine some very flimsy support for his much beleaguered and challenged assertion that the use of handloads exposes people of criminal and civil liability. Heck, the mere ownership of a firearm, exposes folks to criminal and civil liability, if they use it, or have it stolen and uses or whatever. If a person wants to avoid exposure the will have to go in a cave and pull the mountain down across the entrance.

[Catshooter]

You know, five pages ago I posted a thread asking for ideas/thoughts on how to make sure my handloads as close to 100% reliable as I could. Got a couple of good responses, too. :)

I've engaged in thread drift before, I'm as guilty as the next guy . . . but sheesh!

Since you've chimed in Reverend Ross, can you add anything to my reciepe? Besides throwing away my bottom feeder and buying a .500, I mean? :)


Cat

[John Ross]

You know, five pages ago I posted a thread asking for ideas/thoughts on how to make sure my handloads as close to 100% reliable as I could. Got a couple of good responses, too. :)

Since you've chimed in Reverend Ross, can you add anything to my recipe? Besides throwing away my bottom feeder and buying a .500, I mean? :)
Cat

Reading your initial post, my first thought was "How many people does this guy shoot at per week?"

The only time I ever have any issues with handloaded ammo is when I'm trying something new. A new design bullet with a different type crimp groove (or none at all) may have bullet pull issues. A new powder may give problems with temperature extremes or a new charge or primer may have ignition issues. I get those kinks worked out before I set up to crank out ammo in volume. Thus, I never carry a handload in a gun unless it is a proven load.

With a proven load, carry ammo is grabbed out of the 5 gallon bucket that has 3000 rounds in it and put in the gun. I look at them as I'm loading the gun to make sure nothing is obviously wrong, such as an upside down primer, split neck, etc. but this never happens. With the equipment I have and the loading techniques I use, there are never high primers, double charges, etc. Those would get caught instantly during the loading process.

So I don't do anything at all that's special regarding my carry ammo. It's exactly the same as the regular ammo that I load and shoot in quantity.

[Char-Gar]

Handloads can be as reliable as factory loads for defense as well as any other use. When loading social ammunition I take particular care to inspect the case, primed case, powder charge, bullet seating depth, crimp, over all length and cleanliness every step of the process. For me this precludes the use of a progressive press.

I only load about one hundred defense loads per year, so the extra steps and time are not an issue. At the end of the year, I load another 100 rounds, and fire the others for practice.

Regular practice ammo, which can be the same load, can be loaded in bulk without all the various inspection steps, because a misfeed or whatever won't get me killed. I keep the serious social ammo separate from the practice and clearly marked.

I would trust my social ammo MORE than factory ammo as I know what is inside the case. I have known factory ammo to be duds and some without powder.

[Catshooter]

Reading your initial post, my first thought was "How many people does this guy shoot at per week?"

Whadda ya mean shoot at? [smilie=1:

With a proven load, carry ammo is grabbed out of the 5 gallon bucket that has 3000 rounds in it and put in the gun. I look at them as I'm loading the gun to make sure nothing is obviously wrong, such as an upside down primer, split neck, etc. but this never happens. With the equipment I have and the loading techniques I use, there are never high primers, double charges, etc. Those would get caught instantly during the loading process. That's what I'm asking about, loading techniques to avoid problems.

Sound's like you and I actually are on the same page. I haven't had to shoot at anybody for quite a while, don't mind if it stays that way either. But you never know.


Cat

[gandydancer]

MASSAD AYOOB translate-- is that your camel dung? all kidding aside massad is right if you carry reloads for PD the liers ah lawyers are going to say that you went out looking for trouble. and that's a fact.

[Recluse]

MASSAD AYOOB translate-- xx xxxx xxxx xxxxx xxxx?

With all due respect, you're out of line.

If you want to attack Ayoob's opinions, they are fair game.

But maligning his surname--something he did not choose--on a pro-gun forum is well beneath this forum's high standards.

:coffee:

[45nut]

well there seems to be plenty of info here for people to draw their own conclusions on where they should stand so I am closing this thread.

[Catshooter]

So is the reference to his Arabic-sounding name. We're supposed to be adults here, ya know.


Cat