Is Traditional Muzzleloading fading away?

[Fly]

Is Traditional Muzzleloading fading away year by year?I wonder as I go into
gun stores & sports places & try & buy things I use to buy almost any were.

Now yes during muzzle loading deer season many of these shops stock
up some.But I remember being able to go in & buy a rifle or pistol kit.

When was the last time you saw that?I don't think it will ever die all togther
as there will all ways be the internet stores.Inlines have taken some of the market
but thats not what has made the market fall.

What are you guy's thoughts on this?
Fly:coffeecom

[roverboy]

Yeah for the most part traditional muzzle loaders have faded out. In my area for at least 15 years its hard to sell a Hawken, Renegade or any traditional type rifle. I enjoy shooting them still but, most people don't. The average hunter don't get to hunt as much as he wants to and he wants it as easy as he can get it. I don't really blame them. But, for guys that really enjoy the older types I think you'll be able to get most of your supplies for a long time. I personally like the traditional type(even though I own a inline forgive me)because they're just plain old fun to shoot.

[Ajax]

I think alot of the decline in most stores stock is the internet. The prices you can get on the net are cheaper by far than you can get in the store. I don't like it anymore than you, its just the way it is. Lets face it the days of the men gathering at the local gunshop for coffee and chatter are long gone. I am a firm believer in using mom and pop stores. The problems is there are fewer and fewer every year. The ones that are there carry nothing i need.


Andy

[mazo kid]

Maybe in some regions the traditional muzzleloaders are diminishing, but I don't see it in my area (Wisconsin). We just got back from a local rendezvous and it was the 2nd largest camp in 22 years. I think the reason you don't see as much "stuff" stocked in sports shops is that the things can be purchased on-line. Also, the black powder regulations are keeping most shops from stocking it. You can order that on-line too, and it will be shipped right to your door at a price a lot cheaper than the shops can sell it. My 2 cents worth.

[Fly]

Andy I some what agree, but I think it more than that.The reason I say that is the
stores that had the kit guns & all the stuff I use to buy from were not Mom & pop shops.
They where national sporting good stores.

I went into a Bass Pro Shop this summer that had NO #11 precussion cap's.
Can you be leave that,Geeezzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Man I just don't get it?
Fly

[Fly]

Maybe in some regions the traditional muzzleloaders are diminishing, but I don't see it in my area (Wisconsin). We just got back from a local rendezvous and it was the 2nd largest camp in 22 years. I think the reason you don't see as much "stuff" stocked in sports shops is that the things can be purchased on-line. Also, the black powder regulations are keeping most shops from stocking it. You can order that on-line too, and it will be shipped right to your door at a price a lot cheaper than the shops can sell it. My 2 cents worth.

Well the real black powder thing I understand.It's more insurance related than
anything.The insurance reason is base on fires.Any store that has it has to
keep in in a fire proof place & even with that they still raise there rates.

My gun shop told me that why he no longer handles it.
Fly:coffee:

[slamminsammy]

I think it has in my area and its a shame because the NMLRA headquarters are right down the road!!! I dont know anybody in this area but me who still hunts and shoots the traditional muzzleloaders?

[Swede44mag]

I bought a nice NIB old stock TC 50cal Flintlock a couple of years ago on GunBroker. I looked at the same gun in the Wal-Mart catalog they had it cost about $300.00 more than I paid for mine. In the last couple of years most of the Muzzleloaders Wal-Mart USED to have is not stocked anymore. I used to go to 4Flags a lot when I was younger when the owner retired it wasn't the same and they finally closed.

Good luck finding anything local anymore.

[pietro]

When I started out shooting/hunting with muzzleloaders in the late 60's, "traditional" sidehammers was pretty much all there was to choose from; then when inlines started to become commercially available, I have to admit that I went over to the dark side for a few years & rifles (up to a T/C Omega), before I realized than I just plain got more pleasure from using a sidehammer.

Sooo, I sold the inline(s), and now have a few caplocks & a rocklock.

Not so EVERY frontstuffer hunter aged under 45 y.o., that I've run across in the last 8 years or so - who also seem to be rather caught dead than using a guns w/o a scope.

Although it's not completely true, IMO it's the rep of burdensome cleaning of a ML w/o a removeable breech plug that puts an onus on traditionals, AND, sabots are "modern"

.

[405]

Although it's not completely true, IMO it's the rep of burdensome cleaning of a ML w/o a removeable breech plug that puts an onus on traditionals, AND, sabots are "modern"

.

Agreed, sad but true. Many shooters/hunters are like any modern human- somewhat lazy with a want it now, want it easy, where's my advantage? attitude, etc., etc.. Many shooters just want to shoot a little (very little) before hunting season, go home, set the gun aside and plop in front of the tube and pop a cold one. Such a bother to spend 15 minutes cleaning a gun after shooting, be it a modern smokeless bolt gun or a BP muzzleloader. Also, it's sad the "word on the street" started this thought that an inline is easier to clean than a traditional sidelock. Mercy! Nothing could be further from the truth, especially if the traditional has a hooked breech. Inlines, to me, are a real pain to clean.

[P.K.]

Agreed, sad but true. Many shooters/hunters are like any modern human- somewhat lazy with a want it now, want it easy, where's my advantage? attitude, etc., etc.. Many shooters just want to shoot a little (very little) before hunting season, go home, set the gun aside and plop in front of the tube and pop a cold one. Such a bother to spend 15 minutes cleaning a gun after shooting, be it a modern smokeless bolt gun or a BP muzzleloader. Also, it's sad the "word on the street" started this thought that an inline is easier to clean than a traditional sidelock. Mercy! Nothing could be further from the truth, especially if the traditional has a hooked breech. Inlines, to me, are a real pain to clean.

I think you hit it right there. Inlines took all the guess work out of the smoke pole. Never will I own one and I've turned a few away too. There isn't much that is more satisfying when a kid walks down the range and asks, "Mister, what are you doing?"

[mooman76]

CVA quit making them.

[Dean D.]

I do not understand the mystique of the in-line craze myself. Of course maybe it's because our local muzzleloading season specifies you cannot use optics and your ignition source must be exposed to the weather. In-lines seem to take the "Primitive" out of primitive hunting if you ask me.

I am relatively new to muzzleloading, only started a couple years ago, but I hunt with my .54 Lancaster flintlock and really enjoy it. No phoney substitute powders for this boy either.

I'd have to say that most of the above comments are pretty spot-on. I think it is a combination of internet availability and desire for the latest, greatest new product that has affected the traditional market. To each their own.

[wgr]

most people using in,lines say they shoot better and have more range i don,t belive eather.if you take a inline and side hammer with the same barrel you,ll be hard pressed to tell much diff.and as far as range goes i don,t think anyone has any bussness shooting a muzzle loader over 150yd.. i mean do you think a rifle with a 24/28 in. barrel will burn 150 grains of powder? and 150yd. is a long way in the field. well just my dimes worth thinks bill:brokenima

[P.K.]

CVA quit making them.

What a shame it was too.

The fact that my Hunter-19 weighs less than most of my "modern" firearms is the reason why I take it along even during "modern" gun season. The double takes are worth it. ;-)

[P.K.]

I do not understand the mystique of the in-line craze myself. Of course maybe it's because our local muzzleloading season specifies you cannot use optics and your ignition source must be exposed to the weather. In-lines seem to take the "Primitive" out of primitive hunting if you ask me.

I am relatively new to muzzleloading, only started a couple years ago, but I hunt with my .54 Lancaster flintlock and really enjoy it. No phoney substitute powders for this boy either.

I'd have to say that most of the above comments are pretty spot-on. I think it is a combination of internet availability and desire for the latest, greatest new product that has affected the traditional market. To each their own.

Dean, I can think of a couple besides the internet. Sat/cable t.v. and the in-line itself. The first thanks to the outdoor/hunting networks, while I wholeheartedly support the programing much too much time is spent on the "latest and greatest" and not enough on the history behind the next best thing. As for the in-line, unlike in your area if it uses BP or it's equal it's considered a Muzzle Loader which I think needs to be standardized. If it ain't loaded at the muzzle it's a "modern" gun, Period. Also, while a no-go in your area around here mine is the only one seen w/o optics on it.

[Boz330]

I was just up at Friendship last week and it is a shame how much attendance is off compared to when I started going back in the mid 70s. The commercial row had a business in every single stall and the selection was unbelievable. I bet that it is only about 40% now. You couldn't hardly get down the alleyways there were so many folks. The primitive area looked like the encampment at Little Bighorn back in the day but it is pitiful now.
I think that the younger folks now would rather sit in front of a computer and play games than to really get outside and do what many of us enjoy doing. I have to admit that I would rather camp in a camper than a tent anymore but I still enjoy being in the woods with any firearm and especially a traditional front stuffer.
All of these sort of activities tend to run in cycles and maybe some future generation will be attacked by the living history bug and there will be an upsurge again. Assuming there are enough old timers to pass it on. I think the plethora of cheap kits back in the 70s helped start the resurgence and hooked our generation, along with the ML deer seasons that extended field time.

Bob

[P.K.]

I was just up at Friendship last week and it is a shame how much attendance is off compared to when I started going back in the mid 70s. The commercial row had a business in every single stall and the selection was unbelievable. I bet that it is only about 40% now. You couldn't hardly get down the alleyways there were so many folks. The primitive area looked like the encampment at Little Bighorn back in the day but it is pitiful now.
I think that the younger folks now would rather sit in front of a computer and play games than to really get outside and do what many of us enjoy doing. I have to admit that I would rather camp in a camper than a tent anymore but I still enjoy being in the woods with any firearm and especially a traditional front stuffer.
All of these sort of activities tend to run in cycles and maybe some future generation will be attacked by the living history bug and there will be an upsurge again. Assuming there are enough old timers to pass it on. I think the plethora of cheap kits back in the 70s helped start the resurgence and hooked our generation, along with the ML deer seasons that extended field time.

BobIIRC "Court Days" was this past weekend in Mount Sterling. I remember stall after stall of traditional stuff. I was going at the time for a Mauser to sporterize. As for the younger generation being interested, I had to chase my 3 y/o off a couple of times last night while I was trying to cast some REAL boolits. :bigsmyl2:

[zardoz]

I have both a TC Hawken, and a Knight LK93.

When I first hunted from a tree stand with the Hawken, well I got a slight scratch on it, and the day was rainy miserable. Tried my best to protect the powder from water intrusion, but it was no use. Later in the day, powder was wet and would not fire. So I had to use a screw jag to get the ball out. After that, never again would I take the Hawken out for hunting in the field.

That is when I got the Knight in-line. Lighter by a bunch, and easier to handle in the field and tree stand. I also like the double bolt safety on it.

So, when I want nostalgic pleasure, I fire the Hawken at the range with traditional patched balls, and real black powder.

When I want to hunt, I used the Knight, with sabot projectiles, and pyrodex.

I repaired the scratch on the Hawken, and proudly display it over the mantle at the house. Beautiful gun. I do not display the Knight, as it is just pure function.

Just my 0.02. YMMV

[Swampman]

The up side to this is that we can buy traditional guns for very reasonable prices.

Most who are interested in traditional shooting, would never attend a formal match.

[P.K.]

The up side to this is that we can buy traditional guns for very reasonable prices.

Most who are interested in traditional shooting, would never attend a formal match.

I picked a Hunter-19 up in Rupp Arena and thought I was going to get pinched on my way out the door. "Reasonable" isn't the word I would use to describe what ammounted to a gift. If folks are willing to get rid of their "old fasioned" firearms for what ammonts to be pennies on a dollar, I'll happily give each and every one I can a good home.;-)

[garbear]

I think that if Hollywierd made a movie like Jermiah Johnson or like it. I believe there would be a resurgence. I will be hunting any bull elk this year with my T/C Omega inline. The reason I want the reliablity factor becasue if it is a legal spike I am going to take it. This year is about meat and meat ony. chalk it up to one of teh toughest years we have ever had. Next year if things are better it will be tradtional ML all teh way
Garbear

[Fly]

I really don't hunt large game anymore, just rabbits & squrrels.But back when I did
I only used a traditional muzzle loader.I remember at our deer camp the guy's
calling me Jermiah Johnson.

To me hunting is nothing but sport.I never saw much sport in modern firearm in the
way of deer hunting.

Now thats just me, & I hsve no problem with the ones who hunt with modern gun &
never did.

But I agree with the old muzzle loading shows helping promote this sport.I also
love the ole westerns & Civil War movies & I guess thats were my love for the
ole tradtional stuff came from.

None of us ever lived it, but you must wounder what it must have been like
to depend on that front stuffer to keep you alive.

Thats just me guy's
Fly

[P.K.]

I really don't hunt large game anymore, just rabbits & squrrels.But back when I did
I only used a traditional muzzle loader.I remember at our deer camp the guy's
calling me Jermiah Johnson.

To me hunting is nothing but sport.I never saw much sport in modern firearm in the
way of deer hunting.

Now thats just me, & I hsve no problem with the ones who hunt with modern gun &
never did.

But I agree with the old muzzle loading shows helping promote this sport.I also
love the ole westerns & Civil War movies & I guess thats were my love for the
ole tradtional stuff came from.

None of us ever lived it, but you must wounder what it must have been like
to depend on that front stuffer to keep you alive.

Thats just me guy's
Fly

Nope, but if I did I wouldn't be the well fed Irishman I am, I'd be a good 40lbs lighter and a heak of alot more cynical. :-D

[Fly]

That's funny fat boy(wink)
Fly

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I own more muzzleloaders than my dad.. But he was not into hunting either. I think another overlooked thought is there are far fewer hunters out there now than before. Plus there are more bow hunters. With them cam twirlers many more fellers are sitting in trees for the 3 months + Illinois offers and have given up the measley few gun days offered. If it was not for shooting crows & coyotees & groundhogs on the side I would grow real bored with just sitting about shooting holes in paper. But due to the excess of varmin in east central Illinois I think I will continue to get sooty for many years to come when I am up north there.
Mike in Peru

[slamminsammy]

I think them bow hunters got it made in my area! They also get to start the season early and have a lot more days to hunt. I have always said we need a real "primitive" season. Let the real primitive long bow wooden arrow hunters and real primitive flintlock and ball shooters get out in the woods first! I bet you would see a lot more interest in it!

[Boz330]

I think them bow hunters got it made in my area! They also get to start the season early and have a lot more days to hunt. I have always said we need a real "primitive" season. Let the real primitive long bow wooden arrow hunters and real primitive flintlock and ball shooters get out in the woods first! I bet you would see a lot more interest in it!

Maybe maybe not. A lot of hunters have a limited time to hunt and want to make the most of it and fill the freezer.
I don't bow hunt but I do hunt ML and BPCR during the modern rifle season. Taking a deer with a HP Scoped rifle got pretty mundane for me about 20 years ago, that is when I switched to BPCR and iron sights for deer hunting. The first year 91' produced an outstanding 8 point that took the local Buck Pot. A 90yd moving shot (fast walk) that I was extremely proud of at the time.
Back when the gun season was 3 days the ML season gave extra time in the field and I'm sure that helped spur interest. When the inlines and scopes came along the guys that were just looking to fill their freezer went that route. Which is a good thing from the point of view that most of them don't practice enough to be good with TRUE primitive weapons. I would say that the guys that frequent this forum are better than average shots because they actually shoot.
When I was a guide it appalled me how bad of a shot the average hunter really was. I had guys run out of ammo on sight in check because they were so bad. And this was from a bench. Most of the hunters that I had get a shot missed.:groner:

Bob

[white eagle]

people tend to like it EASY
tradition m/l is not as easy as dropping in a
couple of powder balls and shoving a sabot down the barrel
and lighting it with a rifle primer
kinda like the compound bow is to archery
traditional shooters are fast becoming the minority

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

We're not fading away, we're like the guys who were riding Harleys forty years ago. We buy gorgeous flinters from people like Matt & Tony at TVM and we hunt and rondyvou with them to this day.

Rich

[Lonegun1894]

In my case at least, I love the old guns. Currently have 5 flinters, 2 cap guns, and refuse to ever buy an inline. I know they have their uses, and dont hold it against anyone who uses one as you have to start somewhere, but personally, if I am going to use something weather-proof and scoped, I will go out with my .308 or .30-06 instead. I am also working on learning to knap my own flints, so that gives y'all an idea of how I see this side of the shooting obsession. Modern has it's place, but traditional muzzle loaders are just more fun to hunt with for me and provide more of a challenge. And yes, all my MLs have fixed open (traditional) sights. Scoping one would be as bad as scoping a lever-action. Some things you just dont do and still respect yourself afterward, such as scoping a traditional muzzleloader or lever-action, or voting for Obama.

And for those of you who care due to the comments about the younger generations not using these, I'm a crusty old geezer at 31 years old.

PS:
Idaho Sharpshooter,
Matt does do great work, doesn't he? I have one he built, and will have another someday.

[Boz330]

And for those of you who care due to the comments about the younger generations not using these, I'm a crusty old geezer at 31 years old.

PS:
Idaho Sharpshooter,
Matt does do great work, doesn't he? I have one he built, and will have another someday.

When I made that comment I didn't mean that all of the younger generation was that way but many are. My Godson who is your age now took his first deer at 11 with a CVA Hawken he worked all summer to pay for. And took his next 2 after that with the same gun. He now has a wife and 2 kids of his own and his time afield is limited by that and a career.
Now days he usually hunts with something that is quick and easy and can reach out. He is in the picture on the right with a real nice buck he took at 242yds on opening day a couple years ago. He had 2 days to hunt and has to make the most of them. BTW the gun in the picture is one that I built the year he was born. I sold it and then bought it back to give to him for Christmas when he was 12.
There was no offense meant towards anyone, but the number of hunters in general are declining and from what I've seen at Friendship since the 70s has been a steady decline every year.

Bob

[Fly]

Guy's that's why I started this thread in asking you if you see what I see.I first
got into BP in the 1970's & it was dang sure bigger than today.There was alot
more factory made guns to select from then.

To day,yes there is the over $1000 customs out there,but that market is so small
compaired to the over the counter guns.You must consider also how many more
people there is now then in the 70's.

Times have changed, yes but I hope down the line we see a up serge in the muzzle
loader industry.

Fly

[slamminsammy]

I am with Lonegun! Scopes on muzzleloaders and lever guns YUCK! I took a trade on a Win.94 44mag last week, it was scoped so as soon as i got home i popped that thing off and away to the junk pile it went!

[idahoron]

Here in Idaho we have a rule that the cap must be exposed to the weather. As we all know there are plenty of Idaho friendly inlines. For a while we were sidelock only. When the F&G went to that side lock rule I knew I had to design a rifle that would cover me for about any hunting rule for a ML. I picked up a Green Mountain Stainless Steel 1" barrel. Then I found a donor TC Renegade. I added a Lyman 57 SML peep and a Lyman 17 AML globe front sight with Lee Shavers BPCR inserts.
The way the Lyman 57 SML works on my rifles is I use the range finder and get the distance. I set the sight for that distance. If the shot is 125, I set it for 125 and hold dead on. If the shot is 175 yards I set it for 175 and hold dead on.
I got a couple of great muledeer with this rifle

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Farspeaker.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Deer%20hunting/Bigbuck4.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Deer%20hunting/Mybuck55.jpg


My next rifle I built was another TC Renegade. This one was a .458 with a 1-18 twist 32" long barrel. I put a Lyman 57 pep on it, and a Lee Shavers globe with a level. This is another rifle that is amazing. I have not had a chance to use it on game yet.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/458bennitmountainmag25jpg.jpg

I got a great deal on another Stainless 50 cal Green Mountain barrel. I built this rifle for my son. I have shot this rifle a bunch and have killed a great muledeer and a fantastic antelope with it.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Flatlander2.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Deer%20hunting/2009buck08-A.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Antelope%202010/9-25-10Lsmall.jpg

My last rifle I built was another deal I could not pass up. This barrel was a 15/16 Green Mountain .451 with a 1-28 twist. It has a Lyman 57 SML peep that is lifted to give more range. It has a Lyman globe with a Lee Shavers BPCR insert.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Hawken1.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Hawken3.jpg

I would say that yes to a large degree traditional ML is fading away. There are a lot of guys that consider rifle like mine to be the last nail in the coffin. Some guys look at me and call me Daniel Boon. I built these rifles to be legal about anywhere a ML hunt is open. I use Paper patched bullets in them and I can shoot just as far as the inlines. If rifle companies would have designed rifles like these inlines would not be seeing quite as big of following. Lyman came close with it's Lyman Great Plains Hunter Rifle with the 1-32 twist. I have never tested one or know anyone that has one.
I still think that if a fast twist, accurate rifle with GREAT sights were offered guys would buy them. I know over the last several years I have built many guns for friends and acquaintances. Green Mountain made a fast twist 50 but it could only be bought with a scope on it, and it was VERY expensive. Hopefully some day a manufacture will see this and maybe try it again. Ron

[mooman76]

I don't think it's fading away but it is fading some. It almost faded away completely allot of years ago but made a comeback for awhile. It's also nice to here that even though allot of the younger generation are too impatient to use the old fashion MLs, there are some out there still willing to take them up and learn to use them for what they are.

[docone31]

I have found, there are two schools here. Hardcore, and ultra modern.
The Hardcores, show folks how to do it, ultra modern, we see them show up, fire a few, then go home, ne'er to be seen again.
Myself, I like the smell, feel, the cut, and the overall participation. Not a lot share that anymore.
All they want to do, is blast away. Not the hardcores, but the moderns.
I kinda regard it as an art form. A rifle is never done.

[roverboy]

Idahoron, I love the first Renegade. I've got a New Englander that needs a fast twist barrel and Lyman peep sights bad.

[Ajax]

Maybe I am a little off base here. When i think of traditional muzzleloading I think of flintlock and caplock shooting patched roundballs.


Andy

[Maven]

Although I think the allure of traditional ML (flint- or caplock, patched RB as per Ajax) varies greatly by region, I think Fly's point is essentially true. In my area, it's pretty difficult to find traditional rifles or pistols, new or used. To Fly's premise, my club will hold a ML shoot tomorrow, but we've had to open it to all ML rifles and all bullet types as long as they're Pb. Other area clubs haven't quite done that for their shoots. Also, I posted the Shoot date on a local sportsman's forum and got only 19 views as of last night. Contrast that with that no. in our Get-Togethers subforum. In sum, I do think traditional ML-ing has lost a bit of its lustre over the years.

[idahoron]

And there you have it Round ball vs Conical. It has to be a round ball shooter or it is not traditional. Ajax, Your not going to like this but here it is any way.

I feel that there is three separate classes.

1- Historically correct rifle. The person that shoots this rifle has researched and built a rifle that is exactly the same as what would have been shot , or is using an original rifle.

2- Period correct rifle. After research this rifle was made to be a close copy of a rifle in a particular time frame. This rifle could be somewhat altered to fit the shooters needs or wants (like brass tacks) but it was for the most part a copy of what would have been shot during the time frame that it is intended.

3- Traditional rifle. This category to me is rather wide. This rifle is a side lock. it bears some resemblance to the HC or PC rifles but this was NOT a copy of any rifle that was made before 1900. A TC renegade, Hawken, new englander. Or a Lyman great plains rifle, or hunter are not PC or HC. They were never intended to be. They were designed to be "traditional" in the sense that they look a little like rifles that were shot way back when

The bullets or balls that a shooter uses in a "traditional" rifle are in my opinion up to the shooter. He is not trying to be HC or PC. This shooter is following the laws set by most game departments and he uses what ever is legal with his side lock rifle.

The Whitworth, gibbs, and many other rifles that were shot prior to 1863 used conicals, and some were even paper patched. All the long range shooters were using conicals out of these rifles at long range events. Conicals CAN and ARE, HC and PC projectiles. Now here is where the HC and PC guys go ballistic. They say it was never documented that a whitworth with a conical was ever used to shoot an animal. It was never documented that a Gibbs rifle was ever used on a hunt. So the HC and PC boys say that only Patched round balls are the only "traditional" projectile but in reality they are letting their own personal opinion skew their way of thinking. They want the "traditional" hunts to be PRB ONLY so they have less competition while hunting. When a guy uses a TC hawken or a TC Renegade they will look the other way. But if that person uses a conical they go nuts because the PRB boys feel that it gives them an unfair advantage. SO that is when the PRB boys say that the only way to be " traditional is to shoot a PRB. This is an argument that comes up on every thread that involves a side lock rifle and a conical bullet.

Ajax, by your definition a rifle like mine is no different than a inline using pyrodex pellets and a sabot. Is that correct? Ron

[Geraldo]

Frankly the PC/HC argument tires me. Unless you have a rifle that has a hand forged barrel rifled with old school machinery, you're not "correct" to anything but the look. Then we could inspect whether you have Hornady RB or if you cast your own. If you cast your own, did you use a Lee Pot or a wood fire? A Lee mold or an antique?

It's a spiral that never ends, yet it divides those who imagine some sort of superiority in a long rifle that came from parts catalogs over a production gun that came off a line. To me, that sort of snobbishness is one of the problems with muzzleloading today. I've seen guys post pics of their new long rifle only to have the PC/HC crowd tell them how wrong the lock plate is. That will win converts to muzzleloading, won't it? Then there is the whole "pre-1840" BS that ignores the fact that the military was buying muzzleloaders into the 1860s, and that muzzleloaders continued to sell new longer than that. But if I'm not into correct looking pre-1840 designs, I'm not one of the cool kids.

So I offer another definition: if you shoot a sidelock, underhammer, or even a paper cartridge breechloader, whether it was hand forged by Teutonic elves or built by folks in New Hampshire or Italy, you are a friend to the sport of muzzleloading.

[Hang Fire]

I have both a TC Hawken, and a Knight LK93.

When I first hunted from a tree stand with the Hawken, well I got a slight scratch on it, and the day was rainy miserable. Tried my best to protect the powder from water intrusion, but it was no use. Later in the day, powder was wet and would not fire. So I had to use a screw jag to get the ball out. After that, never again would I take the Hawken out for hunting in the field.

That is when I got the Knight in-line. Lighter by a bunch, and easier to handle in the field and tree stand. I also like the double bolt safety on it.

So, when I want nostalgic pleasure, I fire the Hawken at the range with traditional patched balls, and real black powder.

When I want to hunt, I used the Knight, with sabot projectiles, and pyrodex.

I repaired the scratch on the Hawken, and proudly display it over the mantle at the house. Beautiful gun. I do not display the Knight, as it is just pure function.

Just my 0.02. YMMV



To keep the wet out of a trad ML, especially a flinter, use what they did back then, a cow's knee.

[Hang Fire]

Frankly the PC/HC argument tires me. Unless you have a rifle that has a hand forged barrel rifled with old school machinery, you're not "correct" to anything but the look. Then we could inspect whether you have Hornady RB or if you cast your own. If you cast your own, did you use a Lee Pot or a wood fire? A Lee mold or an antique?

It's a spiral that never ends, yet it divides those who imagine some sort of superiority in a long rifle that came from parts catalogs over a production gun that came off a line. To me, that sort of snobbishness is one of the problems with muzzleloading today. I've seen guys post pics of their new long rifle only to have the PC/HC crowd tell them how wrong the lock plate is. That will win converts to muzzleloading, won't it? Then there is the whole "pre-1840" BS that ignores the fact that the military was buying muzzleloaders into the 1860s, and that muzzleloaders continued to sell new longer than that. But if I'm not into correct looking pre-1840 designs, I'm not one of the cool kids.

So I offer another definition: if you shoot a sidelock, underhammer, or even a paper cartridge breechloader, whether it was hand forged by Teutonic elves or built by folks in New Hampshire or Italy, you are a friend to the sport of muzzleloading.

Most people who use trad ML, are also history junkies, but not purist junkies.

To each their own, I could care less how many use, or not use, trad ML, I have done it for over 50 years. It my satisfaction that matters to me, others can do as they like.


http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/Index.html

[Ajax]

The satatement i made was "When i think of traditional muzzleloading I think of flintlock and caplock shooting patched roundballs" No where in that does it state that no one should use conicals. As far the topic goes, I do agree my definition of traditional muzzleloading is dieing out. Personally I don't care if you use a piece of pipe strapped to a 2"x6". The way I see it is as long as they are shooting black powder or subs it is a good thing cause with out constant demand for those accoutrements all stores will quit carrying them.

Some people seem to think that the HC/PC crowd are snobs, I think most are and have forgot that its all make believe and suppose to be fun. I think most people get their fellings hurt when they show up to such events and expect everyone to change the rules to fit them. It is just like any other club or event you have to abide by the rules to play. I am getting into buckskinning to have fun. Do I think somethings are far fetched, yes I do. But to play the game I have to follow the rules.

The biggest problem i have is it is called a primitive muzzleloading season. It is not call modern inline muzzleloading season. If that hurts anyones fellings, o'well, its's my opinion so therefore neither right or wrong.


Andy

[KCSO]

In 1984 our M/L club membership jumped from 18 to 63 memberes as Nebraska had its first M/L deer season. As soon as they legalized inline rifles membership dropped back down. The average age of our club members is about 60. The younger folks want to KILL A DEER not clean a gun and are just as happy with an inline.

Me, I feel somewhat cheated having worked from 1970 to 1984 to get a MUZZLELOADING season and now I am toting a flinter competing with an inline with 100 grains of powder pellets a 3x9 scope and bullets guarenteed to be accurate at 200 yards or more.

I am headed next week to our Fall Rendevous and will spend a week living primitive and shooting traditional rifles, I feel sorry for the inline people, just a little.

[405]

In 1984 our M/L club membership jumped from 18 to 63 memberes as Nebraska had its first M/L deer season. As soon as they legalized inline rifles membership dropped back down. The average age of our club members is about 60. The younger folks want to KILL A DEER not clean a gun and are just as happy with an inline.

Me, I feel somewhat cheated having worked from 1970 to 1984 to get a MUZZLELOADING season and now I am toting a flinter competing with an inline with 100 grains of powder pellets a 3x9 scope and bullets guarenteed to be accurate at 200 yards or more.

I am headed next week to our Fall Rendevous and will spend a week living primitive and shooting traditional rifles, I feel sorry for the inline people, just a little.

Good post! I don't know if cheated is the only feeling because in some ways it is a betrayal of the original spirit and understanding for the muzzleloader season in the first place. Folks in states where deer are viewed as simple targets or vermin may not understand this. I know in many primarily mule deer western states, quality deer hunting is limited and considered somewhat of a precious resource. Back in the time frame your talking many muzzleloader clubs petitioned states to offer a separate, earlier and or longer season for muzzleloaders... since many of these states had already bowed to the pressure from the sharp stick flingers for their special, earlier and or longer season. WITHIN the spirit of the agreement and petition was the understood idea that muzzleloaders were PRIMITIVE, LIMITED WEAPONS. Many states opted for the earlier, longer or separate seasons for muzzleloaders. They based harvest rates (thus future management objectives and bag limits and season lengths, etc.) on the PRIMITIVE weapons ability to harvest at a certain rate.

Fast forward to the inline thing. Now it is a race via gadgetry and technology for the sole purpose of taking advantage of the separate, earlier and or longer season. Today it has nothing to do with the original agreement between muzzleloader hunters and state wildlife agencies nor the original premise upon which the separate muzzleloader seasons were set. In the long run it will hurt not only the muzzleloader hunters but all hunters particularly as it applies to any equitable distribution of the mule deer resourse in those states struggling to deal will ever dropping mule deer populations. I guess in those areas where the idea is to kill whitetails as vermin, it obvoiusly makes no difference from a managament stand point. Quick, easy, high tech, fancy, tricked out, mechanized, marketing, modern culture all play a role in modern hunt-speak. I'm jealous KCSO, wish I were going to a rendevous next week- I do miss those! Fresh deer liver n onions simmering in an iron skillet on the center teepee fire. Yikes what folks have missed and will never know it :(

[waksupi]

Me, I feel somewhat cheated having worked from 1970 to 1984 to get a MUZZLELOADING season and now I am toting a flinter competing with an inline with 100 grains of powder pellets a 3x9 scope and bullets guarenteed to be accurate at 200 yards or more.




Jim, that is why so may traditional muzzle loader users here in Montana came out and testified against a separate season for muzzle loaders.
We were able to defeat it, and I hope it never tries to come back again. We have a long enough season, and enough area, that a person is not handicapped at all using traditional weapons.

[P.K.]

Good post! I don't know if cheated is the only feeling because in some ways it is a betrayal of the original spirit and understanding for the muzzleloader season in the first place. Folks in states where deer are viewed as simple targets or vermin may not understand this. I know in many primarily mule deer western states, quality deer hunting is limited and considered somewhat of a precious resource. Back in the time frame your talking many muzzleloader clubs petitioned states to offer a separate, earlier and or longer season for muzzleloaders... since many of these states had already bowed to the pressure from the sharp stick flingers for their special, earlier and or longer season. WITHIN the spirit of the agreement and petition was the understood idea that muzzleloaders were PRIMITIVE, LIMITED WEAPONS. Many states opted for the earlier, longer or separate seasons for muzzleloaders. They based harvest rates (thus future management objectives and bag limits and season lengths, etc.) on the PRIMITIVE weapons ability to harvest at a certain rate.

Fast forward to the inline thing. Now it is a race via gadgetry and technology for the sole purpose of taking advantage of the separate, earlier and or longer season. Today it has nothing to do with the original agreement between muzzleloader hunters and state wildlife agencies nor the original premise upon which the separate muzzleloader seasons were set. In the long run it will hurt not only the muzzleloader hunters but all hunters particularly as it applies to any equitable distribution of the mule deer resourse in those states struggling to deal will ever dropping mule deer populations. I guess in those areas where the idea is to kill whitetails as vermin, it obvoiusly makes no difference from a managament stand point. Quick, easy, high tech, fancy, tricked out, mechanized, marketing, modern culture all play a role in modern hunt-speak. I'm jealous KCSO, wish I were going to a rendevous next week- I do miss those! Fresh deer liver n onions simmering in an iron skillet on the center teepee fire. Yikes what folks have missed and will never know it :(

Sir, I think all has been said that needs to be said in your statment. PERIOD.

I am a trditional hunter and this item needs to be adressed.

[KCSO]

Ain't it the truth! All I hear is "I,m not into muzzleloading I just want to hunt the UNCROWDED season. Being a crusty retired guy I mostly just refuse to work on inlines, take you *** somewhere I don't have to look at it.

[bob208]

this primitive is so much b.s. my state pa. we will have a primitive muzzloading seasion flintlock and round ball only. ok but then why let the bow hunters use compond bows? so after many years of falling sales the game comission opens another seasion for inlines and precussion rifles. a year later they alow crossbows.

it has nothing to do with hunting or managing the deer heard it is all about the money.

the park service just anounced they were going to kill 150 deer on the gettysburg battlefeild park. what do they do with these deer ? give the meat to the poor or homeless shelters? no they dig a hole and burry them.

[roverboy]

this primitive is so much b.s. my state pa. we will have a primitive muzzloading seasion flintlock and round ball only. ok but then why let the bow hunters use compond bows? so after many years of falling sales the game comission opens another seasion for inlines and precussion rifles. a year later they alow crossbows.

it has nothing to do with hunting or managing the deer heard it is all about the money.

the park service just anounced they were going to kill 150 deer on the gettysburg battlefeild park. what do they do with these deer ? give the meat to the poor or homeless shelters? no they dig a hole and burry them.

Yeah, most state game commissions are all about the money. What the Park service is doing at Gettysburg is wrong. They should donate the meat.

[Fly]

Well guys the meat deal is all about law suits.Lawyers are killing us.My son is a
West Point Grad.When we went up to see him years back, we got to eat with
the cadets.

I found out that all the left over food was scraped.I mean if a loaf of bread was
opened & just one slice gone, scraped.I asked to why they did not feed the homeless.

I was told LAWSUITS.That's whats wrong in this country today.Sorry for getting
on my soap box, But it's so hard to sit back & watch what's going on today in the USA.

Fly

[GrayFox]

I just finished cleaning my TC Hawken .54 after sighting it in with Maxi balls I cast. My brother sighted in his .54 Renegade that i should never have sold--except to him, of course. With our 60+ year-old eyes we both have TC aperture sights on them and were busting clay birds at 100 yards after 6 sighter shots. We're going to be able to hunt on a military base here in GA that has lots of hogs and a good number of whitetail. We can hunt hogs and deer until mid-January, and hogs until May 15th with turkey in March. We're hoping to put the TCs to good use. He also has a .50 inline that he shoot s the 330 Gould HP sized to .452 in sabots that also shoot very well, but he prefers the .54. Guess we're just a couple old guys shooting what we like.

[Fly]

Gray Fox you are a lucky man to have a place to hunt hogs.I no longer hunt deer
but hog's Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Fly

[Newtire]

I think that if Hollywierd made a movie like Jermiah Johnson or like it. I believe there would be a resurgence. Garbear


Exactly! After seeing Jeremiah Johnson, me and a friend bought a T/C "Hawken" kit from Gander Mountain. I don't shoot the rifles much anymore but still love the old double barreled shotguns. Always gathers a crowd at the range. This is my favorite shotgun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPxYqN6Y17Q&feature=feedf

[SamTexas49]

"So, when I want nostalgic pleasure, I fire the Hawken at the range with traditional patched balls, and real black powder. When I want to hunt, I used the Knight, with sabot projectiles, and pyrodex."

Here is the reason ! He says he doesnt expect his traditional rifle to function as well hunting with a RB/patch with real BP, better then his in-line and pyro and a slug!

This is the issue, a new batch of potentil B hunters are sold on the fact eh RB and traditional wont hunt as well as Modern !

All my sidelocks and flinters show signs of wear and tear and each with a great story to go along with it. As for hunting, are folks afraid to try and get closer to the game for a well placed shot? I never found the old round pB to not do its job when placed well, and within range.

[Ajax]

"So, when I want nostalgic pleasure, I fire the Hawken at the range with traditional patched balls, and real black powder. When I want to hunt, I used the Knight, with sabot projectiles, and pyrodex."

Here is the reason ! He says he doesnt expect his traditional rifle to function as well hunting with a RB/patch with real BP, better then his in-line and pyro and a slug!

This is the issue, a new batch of potentil B hunters are sold on the fact eh RB and traditional wont hunt as well as Modern !

All my sidelocks and flinters show signs of wear and tear and each with a great story to go along with it. As for hunting, are folks afraid to try and get closer to the game for a well placed shot? I never found the old round pB to not do its job when placed well, and within range.



Thats the difference between deer hunting and deer shooting.


Andy

[Fly]

"So, when I want nostalgic pleasure, I fire the Hawken at the range with traditional patched balls, and real black powder. When I want to hunt, I used the Knight, with sabot projectiles, and pyrodex."

Here is the reason ! He says he doesnt expect his traditional rifle to function as well hunting with a RB/patch with real BP, better then his in-line and pyro and a slug!

This is the issue, a new batch of potentil B hunters are sold on the fact eh RB and traditional wont hunt as well as Modern !

All my sidelocks and flinters show signs of wear and tear and each with a great story to go along with it. As for hunting, are folks afraid to try and get closer to the game for a well placed shot? I never found the old round pB to not do its job when placed well, and within range.

Great quote!To me hunting is a sport.I guess thats why I love hunting with muzzle loaders.I have a buddy that only hunts with bow & arrows.The only thing I have
against that, is how many deer run off & die to never be found.

But to each his own.

Fly:lovebooli

[waksupi]

Great quote!To me hunting is a sport.I guess thats why I love hunting with muzzle loaders.I have a buddy that only hunts with bow & arrows.The only thing I have
against that, is how many deer run off & die to never be found.

But to each his own.

Fly:lovebooli

There was a study in the states, and in Africa, on the wound loss ratio, between bow hunting and rifle hunting. It was exactly the same. Survival rate for animals wounded with arrows was significantly higher than those wounded with firearms, due to the clean wounds.
There may be more hunters in the woods with rifles after the archery season that occasionally find a dead animal. I imagine people out after rifle season finds the same thing. I've certainly found more deer that were shot by firearms and intentionally left, than those with arrows.

[Fly]

There was a study in the states, and in Africa, on the wound loss ratio, between bow hunting and rifle hunting. It was exactly the same. Survival rate for animals wounded with arrows was significantly higher than those wounded with firearms, due to the clean wounds.
There may be more hunters in the woods with rifles after the archery season that occasionally find a dead animal. I imagine people out after rifle season finds the same thing. I've certainly found more deer that were shot by firearms and intentionally left, than those with arrows.

Well that may be but, Whats the rate of deer shot by guns to bow & arrow?

Not even close, Fly

[waksupi]

Well that may be but, Whats the rate of deer shot by guns to bow & arrow?

Not even close, Fly

Actually, that was averaged out in the studies. Many more were shot with rifles and shotguns than arrows due to there being more firearm hunters, so the archery part of the research stretched on further. So, I would have to expect for wounding and loss, firearms incidents would have to be higher.

[Fly]

Well buddy, I agree with 99% of your post.You a very smart guy, but as you
know a study is only as good as the fact,s that are put in.

I have no problem in bow hunting, so don't take me wrong.But I do beleave
there is many,many more clean kills with guns on average.JMOHOP

Fly

[reivertom]

I'll be hitting the woods Saturday deer hunting with my .54 Flinter longrifle. Not an in-line in sight! Am I totally period correct ? No, but Daniel Boone wouldn't notice anything much different other than really good boots and realtree camo.

[Boz330]

I'll be hitting the woods Saturday deer hunting with my .54 Flinter longrifle. Not an in-line in sight! Am I totally period correct ? No, but Daniel Boone wouldn't notice anything much different other than really good boots and realtree camo.

Better make that Blaze orange instead of Real Tree. Ole Daniel didn't have to worry about the game warden, although the Indians extracted a much steeper fine.
Good luck, I'll be out there myself, with a traditional.

Bob

[Boz330]

Having spent several years guiding elk hunters in NM I came to the conclusion that the average hunter isn't a marksman. I have seen more animals missed than killed. I had very few modern gun hunters, but they weren't much better.
One hunter blew an antler off of a sleeping bull at 60yds when he was supposed to be making a heart lung shot.:shock: The bull would have scored in the 370 range. The bull was so stunned that he stood long enough for the hunter to reload and make the kill, but he sure took some grief when he got back to camp.

Bob

[Geraldo]

Well buddy, I agree with 99% of your post.You a very smart guy, but as you
know a study is only as good as the fact,s that are put in.

I have no problem in bow hunting, so don't take me wrong.But I do beleave
there is many,many more clean kills with guns on average.JMOHOP

Fly

Spend some time on a public range and you'll be rethinking that. I can't count the time I've heard people say that hitting an 8" target semi-consistently OFF THE BENCH at 50-100 yards is good enough to hunt with. That is with ML and cartridge guns. If they can't hit consistently from a rock solid position, imagine how well they'll shoot standing upright.

[bart55]

I totally agree ,I have watched guys with the latest scoped super custom magnums and a few with rifles brought out of the closet for deer season ,completely miss the target at 50 yards off the bench ! then proceed to shoot a box of ammo and maybe get a hit or two . I Shoot a flinter 50 cal that is a dead on out to 100 yards and at 50 offhand I can keep most into one hole . and I am amazed that these guys actually ever kill anything .I just got back from hunting with my flintlock ,no deer today but it was a good day to be out !

[peter nap]

Exactly! After seeing Jeremiah Johnson, me and a friend bought a T/C "Hawken" kit from Gander Mountain. I don't shoot the rifles much anymore but still love the old double barreled shotguns. Always gathers a crowd at the range. This is my favorite shotgun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPxYqN6Y17Q&feature=feedf

The movie I like most is the Mountain Men with Charlton Heston and Brian Keith.

The real person behind Jeremiah Johnson...was John Johnson. His story is told in a book called The Crow Killer and was told by the real Del Gewe.

Many of Johnson's stories are used in the Mountain Men but neither tells it all....like Johnson cutting off an indian leg to use as a MRE while escaping his captors.

NO....Traditional Muzzle Loading isn't dead but the woods are full of plastic stocked, front stuffing bolt action rifles being used by people who wouldn't be interested in the season if they couldn't use them.

[ReloaderEd]

The Traditional Muzzleloaders are still good and are used by those who enjoy them. Lyman still produces some of the best percussion and flints. They are stong and will shoot fairly accurately. Using the newer Hogden Tripple Se7en 2F one can achieve 1700 to 1900 fps using round balls or a variety of conicals and I stress in newer stronger muzzleloaders. The Hogden powder is not black powder and you can buy it for around 20 dollars a pound at BiMart out here in Washington State. Traditional blackpowder will be a thing of the past soon sadly but I understand the safety issue. Also, Inline Muzzleloaders are illegal to use as muzzleloaders in some states and I have read the 209 primers are not that great at ignition. Be Safe

[451whitworth]

as to the original topic, yes it's already faded away. not totally but it will probably stay where it's at numbers wise for some time. participation in muzzleloader season is the driving force. everyone i know who used to hunt with side hammers in the '80's switched to an inline.

[mack1]

. Traditional blackpowder will be a thing of the past soon sadly but I understand the safety issue.

I do not understand how something can become a thing of the past when any above average highschool chem student can make it. I do not understand giving up any Independence for a false sense of security. I am not trying to start an argument I am just starting with flintlocks and they depend on real black to operate reliably and the thought of giving up black powder because someone might get hurt or missuse it when it has been in use for hunderds of years is beyond me what will be next horses, we must be careful in our way of thinking I have been guilty of this myself. I do not think traditional muzzle loading is fading as there are many venders of rifles and supplies.

[Newtire]

The movie I like most is the Mountain Men with Charlton Heston and Brian Keith.



Hi Peter,
Me and the missus just watched that movie. Funny how Brian Keith had such perfect teeth! Kind of like watching an Italian opera when it takes forever to die in the scene where Brian Keith is taking his last breath. I did like the movie though.

[waksupi]

I think the reason you don't see many traditional type muzzle loaders on dealers shelves, is the advancement of the sport. Todays serious shooters are more sophisticated, and demand a higher quality firearm. Off the shelf rifles just don't make it for quality and aesthetics.
Most builders are kept busy with orders for custom guns. Even in this economy, I am surprised how steady the business has been for me.
The modern custom long rifles and fowlers is an overlooked arena for gun collectors. The muzzle loaders being built today for the most part far surpass the quality of the old original guns. This is truly the second Golden Age of muzzle loaders.

[Canuck Bob]

My only BP rifle is a Lyman .54 Lefty Flinter. I will not buy an inline because it lacks any charm. For me nothing matches hurtling a big PRB down range with a powder that was formulted millenia ago and lit with a rock! We have very long seasons here still so primitive seasons aren't the lure they are elsewhere.

I think a factor often not accounted for is how busy many of us are. With the economy and hard markets I work a lot. I'm sure not popping cold ones in front of the TV. My stress relief is visiting these forums. Money is tight for almost evey family man. In times like these a box or two of Wally World ammo and a quick range session with a deer rifle is all many guys can afford or schedule. It cuts deep into such markets as traditional muzzies.

[P.K.]

My 4 y/o stands 10 feet away as I pour a REAL and drop it. "Dad is that a Bullet?" Yes son it is, someday you'll be shooting it or pouring it.



"Not w/o you."

Don't cry in your melt......My son is a gem.

[Newtire]

My 4 y/o stands 10 feet away as I pour a REAL and drop it. "Dad is that a Bullet?" Yes son it is, someday you'll be shooting it or pouring it.



"Not w/o you."

Don't cry in your melt......My son is a gem.
And someday, when he graduates from college and brings his friends home to see his cool dad who shoots guns and makes his own boolits, you'll still remember him when he was 4 years old.

[P.K.]

And someday, when he graduates from college and brings his friends home to see his cool dad who shoots guns and makes his own boolits, you'll still remember him when he was 4 years old.

Shame on you! Me misting over my melt......

[brad925]

I find most if not all that shoot strictly in-line muzzle loaders shoot them for an increased hunting opportunity not for the the love of muzzle loading. Here in Alberta canada the seaon is for primative arms. I see nothing primative about an in-line muzzle loader. Savage pretty much ruined that with their abomination of what a muzzle loader is. But i degress and each to their own. The newer generation is all about technology. They want it faster and easier. The less skill involved the better. But again i apologise for the rant.

[Fly]

I think the reason you don't see many traditional type muzzle loaders on dealers shelves, is the advancement of the sport. Todays serious shooters are more sophisticated, and demand a higher quality firearm. Off the shelf rifles just don't make it for quality and aesthetics.
Most builders are kept busy with orders for custom guns. Even in this economy, I am surprised how steady the business has been for me.
The modern custom long rifles and fowlers is an overlooked arena for gun collectors. The muzzle loaders being built today for the most part far surpass the quality of the old original guns. This is truly the second Golden Age of muzzle loaders.

Well if not for the over the counter traditional rifles I most likly would have
never got into muzzle loaders at all.My first was a CVA mountan rifle I bought
in 1977 & still own today.

I love the custom long guns also.But let's face it, how many people will
spend $1000 or more to get into this as just a sport.I will bet over 90%
of us ole traditional guys started with a TC or CVA or kit gun of some type.

Then later moved up to the custom traditionals.I just don't think many inline owners will ever exsplore our world of shooting.

JMOHOP Fly:coffeecom

[Good Cheer]

Yup, after decades of muzzleloading I still love TC's and some Italian imports. Got one custom hand made flinter in 1981 and have no yin for another very expensive piece. The modifed TC's are just fine.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I remember being able to purchase a 1lb can of Goex blackpowder for $7 at any gunshop. The regulations got very strict and I suspect it's stealth gun control by regulatory agencies. It's very hard to find these days.

[Fly]

I remember being able to purchase a 1lb can of Goex blackpowder for $7 at any gunshop. The regulations got very strict and I suspect it's stealth gun control by regulatory agencies. It's very hard to find these days.

Well it's more about insurance than anything from what I,m told.I talked to
a gun shop owner as to why he dropped bp altogether.He said it was in case
of a fire, it had to be contained in some type of way.

Plus his insurance rates would rise to the point, it just was not worth the effert.
It is said BP get's such a bad rap.Some of you know I make my own.But larger
amounts for fire works are kept in a underground storm shelter & locked, for
ATF reasons.
Fly:holysheep

[OnHoPr]

MZLR deer season coming up for me in December. Depending on harvest, I will put the 209x50 barrel on the TC or 12/1 and start testing and sighting in. I just put all my BP stuff in two boxes and was thinking that it would take darn near two days to test and sight in for a 120 primers with using two or three cleaning patches between shots and checking targets. Then I seen the ole ball & patch in the box and thought I could shoot that many boolits in two hours having fun shooting plastic bottles and clay pigeons. The side hammer is a lot more fun IMO and at average woods ranges it is very effective.

[Fly]

(The side hammer is a lot more fun IMO and at average woods ranges it is very effective. )

You got that right!Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Fly

[Dirty30]

I agree with #16. There are a lot of people who watch outdoor programming and have to have the latest and greatest. I wish that black poweder seasons would specify side locks and front loaders. Lets be honest, if you're shooting shotgun primers, pyrodex, sabots, plastic stocks and scopes.....you're not shooting BP. These companies didn't make muzzleloading better, they made a completely different product. Forgive me for being so opinionated on the subject, but I really believe that a guy shooting an inline, and me shooting a flinter (I built myself) are not doing the same thing at any level whatsoever.

[Boerrancher]

I own an inline with a nice scope and the whole nine yards. I took it to the range once, shot it enough to zero it, tossed the rest of the pellets, and sabotted bullets and 209 primers in an ammo can and have not touched it since. It hangs on a rack in my work room. With that said, I don't consider it to be primitive in any way, any more so than a wheelie bow and carbon arrows. I bow hunt with my copperhead snake skin backed hickory self bow, with wooden arrows I made form scratch with fir sticks, stone broadheads, and turkey feathers. To me that is archery, just like side lock muzzle loaders are true muzzle loaders. Just like the wheelie bow with sights and carbon arrows takes much of the hard work out of archery, so the inline does with muzzle loading. To me hunting is the ability to get right there with the animal up close and personal. If you are not doing that you are not hunting, you are just shooting a game animal, which is fine if that is all you are capable of doing due to lack of time, skill or both. Just don't consider yourself a primitive hunter if you are using a wheelie bow and carbon arrows, or an inline with a scope, powder pellets, and sabotted bullets.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Plastikosmd]

Love the flash of a flinter

[Bullet Caster]

The only BP rifle I own is a Pedersoli .50 flintlock. I love the way this rifle shoots. I've only shot patched round balls out of it and I had one conical saved that I was going to try, but threw it into the pot with all the other lead. After talking to Waksupi and Ajax on chat I came to the conclusion that I'd never intoduce a conical to my muzzleloader. Why? I don't know but I like to think that eventhough my Pedersoli is not an historic weapon it is modled after a Pennsylvania rifle of the 1850's. I consider myself a traditionalist. Whenever I take it to the range with my buddy, I always get kidded about causing so much smoke. I only use black powder in it eventhough I acquired some pyrodex not too long ago. When I run out of FFFg pistol powder I'll use it in my cap 'n ball revolver, but only then, and when it's gone I'll go out and try to find some more BP. I used to re-enact with a bunch of Civil War buffs and I think that I should be able to find some black powder through my old association with these Civil War buffs. They always seem to be able to find enough BP to keep them going. I have not hunted with my flintlock but it will be my go to weapon ITSHTF. I've still got to get me a .490 round ball mould. So with me muzzleloading is far from dead and I've tried to get my nephew into the holy black, but he is one of the "now" generation and doesn't want to do anything that may be hard. But I keep telling him that muzzleloading is an art of shooting and takes more precision than just loading up a mag and shooting. We'll see what happens when I get to old to shoot my muzzleloader and hope his interest will wax in the sport and not wane. BC

[subsonic]

I'm on the fence. In Missouri, we have areas with WAY TOO MANY DEER! But of course they are the more urban areas where hunting is very limited or prohibited. Where hunting is allowed, most places north of where I live have PLENTY of deer for a meat hunter. Some of the guys that only want the antlers might moan, but there are plenty of legal bucks for them too. South of where I live, there are less deer. The general consensus is the it's due to the lower income areas and that "deer season" is whenever they need some meat. Dept of conservations will tell you it's due to the habitat and lack of farms. Google Earth will show you where farms are.

So "competing" with others with better equipment seems like a silly argument. There are plenty of deer if you can get a decent lease or have decent property of your own. The shots here are generally so close that equipment is not really an issue. I handgun hunt during normal rifle season and do not feel handicapped at all. If you are a terrible shot and need fast reloads, you might have an argument.

For me, M/L season is just more time to spend in the woods. I got my Encore barrel a few years back because it was a cheap way to get into ML hunting (had a frame) and at the time I actually thought there was a slight advantage. Easier to clean, more range, more accuracy, etc.

After living with the thing for a few years, I would suggest that a traditional sidelock might be easier to care for (or at least more honest about what it needs), is just as effective, has basically the same effective range when equipped with iron sights, and is probably more fun to hunt with. After thinking long and hard, the only advantage I see to the in-lines is that you can more easily mount a scope on them for lower light hunting and allowing better vision when picking a shot through brush.

And while people cringe at the thought (including me!), I strongly beleive that scopes reduce hunting accidents. Where bubba might have tossed a few rounds into the brush when he saw something move, he will now pick up his rifle and look through the scope into the brush. And while I'm definitely not crazy about having a loaded rifle pointed at me, it sure beats having a rifle fired at me!

I know a few guys that have gone from in-lines to traditional rifles for the same reasons I am contemplating it. My only hold-up is that I already own an in-line and will have to plunk down cash for a GPR. And the ease of mounting a scope on my Encore.

[mooman76]

Whether to use primitive type M/Ls or inlines for a M/L season can't really have just one right or wrong answer. It really depends on the area and state you live in. Out west you have wide open spaces and deer are limited to a degree. Back east deer are thick and are getting harder to control so what you shoot doesn't matter as much. Illinois doesn't even have a rifle season and the deer are thick there, so when M/L season comes around it doesn't matter as much there and there is less advantage than out west.

[2571]

Bought a used TC New Englander this Fall for $41. Nothing wrong with it.

Can you imagine doing that in 1970's?

[Fly]

I'm on the fence. In Missouri, we have areas with WAY TOO MANY DEER! But of course they are the more urban areas where hunting is very limited or prohibited. Where hunting is allowed, most places north of where I live have PLENTY of deer for a meat hunter. Some of the guys that only want the antlers might moan, but there are plenty of legal bucks for them too. South of where I live, there are less deer. The general consensus is the it's due to the lower income areas and that "deer season" is whenever they need some meat. Dept of conservations will tell you it's due to the habitat and lack of farms. Google Earth will show you where farms are.

So "competing" with others with better equipment seems like a silly argument. There are plenty of deer if you can get a decent lease or have decent property of your own. The shots here are generally so close that equipment is not really an issue. I handgun hunt during normal rifle season and do not feel handicapped at all. If you are a terrible shot and need fast reloads, you might have an argument.

For me, M/L season is just more time to spend in the woods. I got my Encore barrel a few years back because it was a cheap way to get into ML hunting (had a frame) and at the time I actually thought there was a slight advantage. Easier to clean, more range, more accuracy, etc.

After living with the thing for a few years, I would suggest that a traditional sidelock might be easier to care for (or at least more honest about what it needs), is just as effective, has basically the same effective range when equipped with iron sights, and is probably more fun to hunt with. After thinking long and hard, the only advantage I see to the in-lines is that you can more easily mount a scope on them for lower light hunting and allowing better vision when picking a shot through brush.

And while people cringe at the thought (including me!), I strongly beleive that scopes reduce hunting accidents. Where bubba might have tossed a few rounds into the brush when he saw something move, he will now pick up his rifle and look through the scope into the brush. And while I'm definitely not crazy about having a loaded rifle pointed at me, it sure beats having a rifle fired at me!

I know a few guys that have gone from in-lines to traditional rifles for the same reasons I am contemplating it. My only hold-up is that I already own an in-line and will have to plunk down cash for a GPR. And the ease of mounting a scope on my Encore.

Man I hear you BUT!I say to you this.You have Muzzle Loading season to just
harvest more deer.You already justifided that by your own report.

But You don't understand what this post is even about.Don't take this wrong.
But we traditional guys are more about the hunt than the meat.We want
Muzzle loading season to be what it was meant to be.( You really know what
I'm talking about) Do You? That's OK too.There's room for all.

But this may blow you away, but I have always hunted modern season
with a muzzle loader.

To each there own Fly:coffee:

[subsonic]

Doesn't blow me away. I know some folks that do the same during regular gun season, and as I said, I hunt with a handgun when I could have a rifle, so I also know what you mean about it being about the hunt.

As long as we can do what we want, and it's not causing problems, what's the difference?

I should have taken a couple of pics at my stepson's YHEC meeting yesterday. 11 kids shooting MLs. 2 in-lines, 1 flint, the rest caplocks.

If they made in-lines with roundball rifling things might be different though.
Rules state max powder charge 60gr by volume and boolit weight max 385gr. Max caliber .54 Shots at 25,50, and 75yds. No scopes. I have never seen a .36 show up, but it seems like the way to "game" it.

[grullaguy]

One thing I find interesting is that on a gun trading site I frequent, inline rifles often stay up for weeks and months. However, anything of the same value, with a side lock or an octagonal barrel, usually gets snapped up in the first day.

People that frequent that site obviously prefer the traditional styling. I know I do.

[Dirty30]

I think to a certain degree that traditional muzzleloading is incumbent on those of us who do it, to sell it to others. My uncle got me into it when I was about 14. This summer I built a halfstock .50 cal for a good friend of mine and he fell in love with it after the first shot. He killed an antelope with it and now it's an obscesion. I'd like to get a prety good crew of guys together who hunt with smoke poles, I just need converts first. I wish it was as easy to turn people on to the Holy Bible as it is holy black. The world would be a better place if there were more of both.

[Boerrancher]

I wish it was as easy to turn people on to the Holy Bible as it is holy black. The world would be a better place if there were more of both.

You have that right. I am not a Bible Thumper but I have no doubt the world would be a much better place if more people took what was in it's pages to heart. The same with the Holy Black. I Fell in love with black powder when I was a kid, even made and shot my own in everything from front stuffers to cartridges. I am a traditionalist as I have stated before, I don't mind the inline hunters during ML season. Here in MO there is no real advantage except for the scope. My complaint is the people using the inline and calling it "primitive" hunting. When your primer, be it a cap or 4fg is exposed to the elements, and you carry your powder loose in a horn or flask, and shoot cast or swedged lead, then you are primitive. As I keep proving with my stone knives and stone hunting points, Primitive does not mean ineffective, it only means the first. Heck If I could afford one I would make a match or wheel lock to hunt with, just for the fun of it.

Best wishes,

Joe

[DODGEM250]

I will certainly agree that "traditional" MLing is not popular as it used to be, BUT then again, we didn't have "inlines" 15 years ago that we could afford. The traditional hammer / flint guns are hard to sell these days obviously, but, it's not due to price or accuracy, I feel its simply due to "dependability", which I am experienced with, meaning, I shot my hammer 15 times in a row to sight in the new scope with not a single misfire and when the time came to pull the trigger on a Doe, it failed when I needed it most. My inlines have never failed, BUT, I also respect the challenges of hunting with a traditional rifle much more than a modern inline. I will NEVER give up my hammers for any inline.

I do shoot my inlines during Deer seasons, but, that's like shooting a shotgun to me. I prefer the traditional challenges. If you succeed with a traditional ML, you have then, and only then, done something to be proud of.

[marwin95]

I don't want to be a pessimist but traditional every thing id fading away. Have you walked into a regular sporting or shooting stote and asked for their traditional archery or traditional muzzleloading or traditional anything section? It is sometimes difficult to locate more than one operating web site on some traditional "whatevers".

BUT I've got mine---so who cares what they think!

[Fly]

I don't want to be a pessimist but traditional every thing id fading away. Have you walked into a regular sporting or shooting stote and asked for their traditional archery or traditional muzzleloading or traditional anything section? It is sometimes difficult to locate more than one operating web site on some traditional "whatevers".

BUT I've got mine---so who cares what they think!

Yea your so right about that.I think subsonic took my post the way
I wanted him to.Like he said, he is not breaking any laws & each
should enjoy the hunt as they see fit, as long as it hurts no one.

I got into black powder not to hunt with, but to live shooting the
way it was in the 1700,s & 1800,s.There is just something about it
that draws me to it.

But that just me & I say to each there own.But remember what
this tread is about & that's the future of our ole smokepoles.

Fly:lovebooli

[Sixgun Symphony]

Most hunters are not into guns, they only show up at the gunrange maybe a week before opening day to sight in their rifles and they're done. A 20rd box of cartridges will last them a few years.

They want to hunt in our season set aside for muzzle loading firearms. But they don't want to shoot a muzzle loading rifle. Tony Knight really knows his market when he designed the first modern inline rifle. It's as modern as possible, then Remington went further by making the first muzzle loading rifle with a faux bolt-action. It's a panacea for the hunters that really don't want to shoot a muzzle loader. Sort of like Linus and his blanket in the Charlie Brown cartoon.

[451 Pete]

Gentlemen,
I have been reading this thread for a while now and have been wrestling with the best way to put my thoughts into words.

I don't think that traditional muzzle loading is dying out, but rather that it has become buried under a mass of in-lines. You have to just dig a bit more to find it.

In-lines could be a subject for a study in a marketing class. You had the muzzle loading seasons set up in a lot of the states, you had the insurance company's wanting to thin out or eliminate the deer herds and you had a lot of hunters that wanted to extend thier hunting seasons. Everything was set in place. Along comes the in-line rifle with the manufacturers promise's, sounding a lot like a new politician campaigning for office.
" It's easier to clean. " It has a stainless steel barrel so it will not rust." " This rifle has the power of a 7mm Reminton Magnun." " It will always go off with this hotter priming system. " ......and it go's on and on. It worked, they sold them by the million.

I think the problem is that we see so many guy's going into muzzle loading but yet we forget that they are hunters only. They do not have an interest in the history or in what was traditional, they just want it made ( or perceived ) as being as simple as possible and want a muzzle loading rifle to extend thier hunting season.
They also want a muzzle loader made as much the same as the modern rifle that they are more familiar with. That appeals to them. If it is a bolt action and has a side safety instead of a half cock notch they understand it.

I also think that most of these fellows are not going to be showing up on a message board like this one. Most want it all done for them, rather than doing it for themselves.

Again most of these guys don't shoot thier in-lines a lot either. Pelletized powders and saboted bullets are expensive to buy and the rifles are so light that it makes the recoil severe. The in-lines are more expensive to shoot and not as much fun to shoot.

Now if you have read all of this you might think I am knocking the in-lines or the hunters, but I am really not. When a guy shows up at my local range with his in-line and if he shows any interest in the side hammer rifle that I am shooting, I will take the time to explain it to him, load it for him, and give him a few shots. I have managed to get a few to convert over to the dark side by doing this , but it is tough. Most of the local gun shops don't even carry side hammer rifles or the supplies needed to shoot them anymore, so it is not just a simple transition in going from one to the other. You first have to get past all of the manufacturers hype, not an easy thing to do.
I think the traditional muzzle loader may have faded just a little bit but it will not be going away any time soon so long as those of us that shoot the side hammers take the time to educate those that don't.

Just my thoughts ...... Pete:coffee:

[Fly]

Pete you nailed it very well.The only thing I differ with you is the size of
ole muzzle loaders today.The attendendense at Friendship tell's alot.Not
what it was years back.

Fewer Muzzle loading clubs,& fewer side hammers sold.The reasons you give
are right on.I don't think it will ever die out all together, but no question it
is shinking.It's helps the custom gun builders, but I wonder how long T/C
keeps making the ole guy's.

More money to be made with inlines.Plastic stocks don't require the fitting
& finish the wood ones do.Time will tell, but unless something spurs it
I see nothing bringing it back to the ole times.
Fly

[Boz330]

The problem as I see it is there aren't that many younguns being exposed to it. If you just look at the overweight problem among the current generation you can see that they sit in front of computers playing those games instead of getting out and doing anything outside. I think that the shooting sports in general are declining and that limits the number of folks that get exposed to it to start with.
As Fly pointed out the number of venders and participants at Friendship is very telling. I can remember almost every booth having someone in them back in the 70s and you couldn't carry enough money for the possibilities.
I don't think that it will ever disappear, just that it has peaked and it is sad to see the decline from the hay day.

Bob

[451 Pete]

Fly and Boz,
I think that a portion of what you are seeing in the number of shooters declining at Friendship can also be blamed on the NMLRA. Times have changed, the world has changed and we haven't. I think we need to update our magazine publication and do a bit more advertising to let folks know we even exist. The magazine needs more things of historical content and more " How to ... " articles and maybe a bit of color. It is said that we are the best kept secret .... How many times have you heard that? We need to get our name out more in front of the public, I think that would help out too. This has been a topic of discussion of the board of directors there. I think that some changes are needed and are coming.

Boz , I think you are right on too. Kids do spend more time indoors today. It is not like when we were kids. My dad worked , mom stayed at home ... one persons wage could support a family. Both parents work today, they come home tired and use the TV and computor for a baby sitter.

The computor has also hurt us at Friendship with internet sales. A guy can sit at home and drink a coffee while he does his shopping so the vendors don't get the sales and don't stay at the shoot all week. People come looking for bargains and tell the vendors I can buy it cheaper from so and so on the internet.

There are also a lot more events going on today than what there used to be when Friendship and the shoot was the only game in town. And to all of this you can throw in an economy that has been in the tank in some areas for 8 years of more.

The bottom line is that there is no one thing I can point to and say that this is definitely what caused a decline in the participation at Friendship or in the decline in the traditional muzzle loading rifle and I don't think that any one single thing will be a fix. Maybe the Tri-Centenial Celebration of our country's birth.... but unfortunately I am old enough that I will not be able to attend.

Take care .... Pete :coffeecom

( We actually were up by about 40 registered shooters at last years fall match. This being with one of the main roads going into Friendship being closed because of a wash out so maybe we are doing something right. )

[Fly]

Well I agree.But I think something that would really help, is movie makers.The old
mountain men movies.More civil war movies & so on.I know that spurred me as a
kid.

Don't know how old you guys are, but I did have a Davey Crockett hat.Mmmmmmmmmmm

Fly

[Ajax]

i am only 37 but i did too fly.


Andy

[DODGEM250]

Gentlemen,
I have been reading this thread for a while now and have been wrestling with the best way to put my thoughts into words.

I don't think that traditional muzzle loading is dying out, but rather that it has become buried under a mass of in-lines. You have to just dig a bit more to find it.

In-lines could be a subject for a study in a marketing class. You had the muzzle loading seasons set up in a lot of the states, you had the insurance company's wanting to thin out or eliminate the deer herds and you had a lot of hunters that wanted to extend thier hunting seasons. Everything was set in place. Along comes the in-line rifle with the manufacturers promise's, sounding a lot like a new politician campaigning for office.
" It's easier to clean. " It has a stainless steel barrel so it will not rust." " This rifle has the power of a 7mm Reminton Magnun." " It will always go off with this hotter priming system. " ......and it go's on and on. It worked, they sold them by the million.

I think the problem is that we see so many guy's going into muzzle loading but yet we forget that they are hunters only. They do not have an interest in the history or in what was traditional, they just want it made ( or perceived ) as being as simple as possible and want a muzzle loading rifle to extend thier hunting season.
They also want a muzzle loader made as much the same as the modern rifle that they are more familiar with. That appeals to them. If it is a bolt action and has a side safety instead of a half cock notch they understand it.

I also think that most of these fellows are not going to be showing up on a message board like this one. Most want it all done for them, rather than doing it for themselves.

Again most of these guys don't shoot thier in-lines a lot either. Pelletized powders and saboted bullets are expensive to buy and the rifles are so light that it makes the recoil severe. The in-lines are more expensive to shoot and not as much fun to shoot.

Now if you have read all of this you might think I am knocking the in-lines or the hunters, but I am really not. When a guy shows up at my local range with his in-line and if he shows any interest in the side hammer rifle that I am shooting, I will take the time to explain it to him, load it for him, and give him a few shots. I have managed to get a few to convert over to the dark side by doing this , but it is tough. Most of the local gun shops don't even carry side hammer rifles or the supplies needed to shoot them anymore, so it is not just a simple transition in going from one to the other. You first have to get past all of the manufacturers hype, not an easy thing to do.
I think the traditional muzzle loader may have faded just a little bit but it will not be going away any time soon so long as those of us that shoot the side hammers take the time to educate those that don't.

Just my thoughts ...... Pete:coffee:

This is called "dying out". :mrgreen:

[DODGEM250]

Man I hear you BUT!I say to you this.You have Muzzle Loading season to just
harvest more deer.You already justifided that by your own report.

But You don't understand what this post is even about.Don't take this wrong.
But we traditional guys are more about the hunt than the meat.We want
Muzzle loading season to be what it was meant to be.( You really know what
I'm talking about) Do You? That's OK too.There's room for all.

But this may blow you away, but I have always hunted modern season
with a muzzle loader.

To each there own Fly:coffee:

I can agree here. I hunt modern with a ML too. I own a shotgun, but, that's for rainy days so I don't lose time from meat harvesting. Inlines are great and all, but, it's just a front loaded shotgun in my opinion and I only use mine... well, for fun I guess you'd say.

[DODGEM250]

Fly and Boz,
I think that a portion of what you are seeing in the number of shooters declining at Friendship can also be blamed on the NMLRA. Times have changed, the world has changed and we haven't. I think we need to update our magazine publication and do a bit more advertising to let folks know we even exist. The magazine needs more things of historical content and more " How to ... " articles and maybe a bit of color. It is said that we are the best kept secret .... How many times have you heard that? We need to get our name out more in front of the public, I think that would help out too. This has been a topic of discussion of the board of directors there. I think that some changes are needed and are coming.

Boz , I think you are right on too. Kids do spend more time indoors today. It is not like when we were kids. My dad worked , mom stayed at home ... one persons wage could support a family. Both parents work today, they come home tired and use the TV and computor for a baby sitter.

The computor has also hurt us at Friendship with internet sales. A guy can sit at home and drink a coffee while he does his shopping so the vendors don't get the sales and don't stay at the shoot all week. People come looking for bargains and tell the vendors I can buy it cheaper from so and so on the internet.

There are also a lot more events going on today than what there used to be when Friendship and the shoot was the only game in town. And to all of this you can throw in an economy that has been in the tank in some areas for 8 years of more.

The bottom line is that there is no one thing I can point to and say that this is definitely what caused a decline in the participation at Friendship or in the decline in the traditional muzzle loading rifle and I don't think that any one single thing will be a fix. Maybe the Tri-Centenial Celebration of our country's birth.... but unfortunately I am old enough that I will not be able to attend.

Take care .... Pete :coffeecom

( We actually were up by about 40 registered shooters at last years fall match. This being with one of the main roads going into Friendship being closed because of a wash out so maybe we are doing something right. )

Which is now causing today's kids to be tomorrows losers and fat ones at that. Sorry for the off topic facts, but, it's one of my favorite subjects of today's world.

[Fly]

Yea It is call LAZY & SPOILED!Don't get me started on that PLEASE!

Fly

[Boz330]

Well I agree.But I think something that would really help, is movie makers.The old
mountain men movies.More civil war movies & so on.I know that spurred me as a
kid.

Don't know how old you guys are, but I did have a Davey Crockett hat.Mmmmmmmmmmm

Fly

I remember the original Disney program as well as Andy Burnett about the mountain men. I imagine Pete and I are about the same age. I just applied for SSI at full retirement age.
I started deer hunting with a T/C Renegade but as we actually started seeing deer I went to a HP rifle, really makes it pretty easy. For the last 15 years I have used a BPCR and ML for the challenge. Yeh I could try a bow but my field time is some what limited and I do like to have meat in the freezer. This year I used my homemade BP and still managed fill the freezer.:drinks:

Bob

[Boerrancher]

I would love to see more mountain man movies, and TV shows set in the frontier period of America, but they will never be made. The Liberal Hollywood types will never make movies and TV shows that demonstrate the strong independent peoples who braved the wilds to settle this country. I take that back AMC has the show Hell on Wheels that is about the trans continental railroad, and they are doing a good job depicting the various struggles of people from the recently freed slaves to the interactions of former Union and Reb soldiers having to work together, and the encounters with the Natives, but I digress. Yes, more mountain man shows.

Best wishes,

Joe