Polyogonal Barrels & Cast Boolits

[metweezer]

Since cast boolits shouldn't be used in polygonal handguns can y'all tell me if the following guns on my wish list are not suitable for cast boolits?
Beretta PX4 Storm ~ CZ 75 ~ Springfield Armory XD9 ~ Ruger GP100 & a Ruger P95? All are 9s except the GP100.
Thanks, Steve
P.S. You are going to break my heart if any of the above have polygonal barrels.

[fecmech]

It's a myth. I have personally run over 3000 cast bullets through a Khar 9MM with the polygonal Lothar barrel. No problems and excellent accuracy. See http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=33855

[Springfield]

YEARS before I ever came here I regularly ran cast bullets through my Jericho with no adverse affects. In both 9mm and 41 AE. And I wouldn't hesitate to do so again.

[HammerMTB]

I use cast boolits in my Glocks, my son's XD .45, and others. They work fine if they fit properly. :)

[milprileb]

As to the question, I do believe the menu of pistols you listed do not have poly barrels and you can shoot lead through them safely.

One can see the immediate reaction on this thread is to deny there is a problem at all and to this I suggest each shooter does his own risk management on this subject. Make your own mind up about what is "Opinion" and what is "Fact".

Now, if the choice of pistol is one that manufacturer states is unsafe for lead, you have an option: get a after market replacement barrel so you can shoot lead. This would be ideal if the pistol you chose fits your hand the best.

From the pictures of KABOOM's on internet, there is no way one can be sure the reason for this accident is what the poster states. Lots of things can cause such a accident, a squib load for instance followed by another round fired to burst barrel. Neither has anything to do with cast bullets.

In closing: If you choose to fire lead in a poly barrel, do look at the KABOOM pictures and ask yourself if a polymer frame is a safe as a all steel framed pistol. Any accident that blows a barrel in a plastic frame has the potential for serious hand injury. Be advised though, many manufacturers flatly state hand loads should not be used in their hand guns and their lawyers
have that put in to cover liability issues with non factory made ammo. Does it really mean the pistol is unsafe shooting hand loads ? Lawyers will say yes, most of us will say baloney. I can lean into this and agree its baloney from 40 plus years of hand loads with lead bullets but I can't say your loads will or won't be safe. So you can take that line of thinking about poly barrels as well.

Great angst on this subject. Make your own call on what you feel is prudent.

[LUBEDUDE]

This comes up from time to time on various boards. All manufacturers put this statement in to cover themselves because they can not control how well you clean your gun.

With polygonal rifling, after every shot with a lead bullet, even a properly sized one, micro slices of lead are left behind in the lands and on the grooves. Much like how your arteries clog up slowly over time. This happens the same way, shot after shot.

It you never cleaned the barrel the barrel, a 45 cal would shrink down to 9mm. That is exaggerated just to make an illustrated point.

You can't put a number on it, each barrel is different, but maybe after 300, or 472 rounds there might be just enough lead build up to "narrow" the bore. Then when shot # 473 comes and pressures spike -- kaboom goes the barrel!

Now, the trick is, don't go ape when you shoot lead bullets with your polygonal barreled gun. Shoot moderately and and CLEAN IT very well aferwards and inspect it very closely for leading and amount. Then that way you get a good reading on how much lead you can shoot throught it.

I have put thousands of rounds of lead through my Glock 19, 20, and 21 without issues. I usually do not shoot more than 300 rounds per session and I have just a little bit of lead.

I also have a half dozen original Bren Tens which were maybe (?) one of the first to have polygonal rifling, if not HK maybe. Anyway, I have put many thousands of rounds of lead bullets down those barrels over the years with no ill effect. Just use some common sense.

The trick is don't go ape, and inspect closely, and Clean it good!

[MtGun44]

Too many folks have put too many lead rounds downrange through all manner of polygonal
barrels for me to believe for one second that there is anything bad about the BARREL.

AFAIK (and I have never owned a Glock) the Glock issue is a chamber size issue and a matter
of having large amounts of the case unsupported. I doubt if the bore has any input in the matter.

All the guns on your list will work just fine with cast - IF YOU DO YOUR PART and load them
correctly with good FITTING boolits, of a good design, with a good lube and assembled into
a normal pressure cartridge.

Bill

[MikeS]

...
With polygonal rifling, after every shot with a lead bullet, even a properly sized one, micro slices of lead are left behind in the lands and on the grooves. Much like how your arteries clog up slowly over time. This happens the same way, shot after shot. ...


Lubedude: You state this as if it's a fact. If it is, show me the evidence. What would make a polygonal rifled barrel leave slices of lead anywhere? If anything a normally rifled barrel has more chance of leaving slices of lead in the barrel than an polygonally rifled one, after all a standard barrel's rifling has 4 sharp edges to cut into the boolit, and a polygonal doesn't.

It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) polygonal rifling has the same problem as Marlin's micro-groove rifling does with cast lead, and that is it's easier for a boolit to not engrave in the rifling, and because of that leading starts happening. If proper steps are taken, casting the boolits harder, not trying to push them at max speeds, making sure the fit is right, etc. then there should be much less chance of leading.

I have a Jericho 941 chambered in 45ACP, and it has polygonal rifling in it. I have yet to shoot cast lead boolits in it, but as soon as I get my 200gr hollow point group buy mould, I plan on shooting cast out of it. That gun is strictly a personal defense weapon, and because of that, and listening to other advice that's also just an old wives tale as well (or should I say an old lawyers tale) about only using factory ammo for personal defense for legal reasons (a defense lawyer for the person you shot trying to paint you as a killer looking for prey because you make your own ammo). I'm planning on using harder cast boolits for practice, but loading fairly soft boolits for carry ammo, as if I need to use it to save my life, I'll be shooting at most 20 rounds (2 clips), and at that time leading will be the last of my concerns! (after all, what good is a HP boolit if you cast it too hard to expand?)

I've strayed a little bit off the topic I was bringing up, that is making statements of fact without showing where those 'facts' come from. I will usually try and say something like "as I understand it..." or "many people here..." or some other type of qualifier when I make statements, or I'll quote the original source of the info "according to Skeeter Skelton..." etc.

If there's evidence that polygonal rifling cuts micro slices of lead off of boolits (and standard rifling doesn't) I would love to see it. And just because a manufacturer says not to shoot cast does not make it a statement of fact, it's a statement of lawyers doing their best at cover their clients rears.

[milprileb]

Personally, I am not an advocate of recommending shooting lead out of a poly barrel due to pure caution on my part but let me caveat that. The reason I know about lead in H&K barrels is after 1500 rds fired of commercial lead bullets fired (cleaning every session and shooting 200 rds per session) is because I did it when I was unaware of H&K's caution on this subject. When I read of this off limits issue, I stopped doing it flat out. Did I ever have lead build up? I never saw it but then I was cleaning the pistol always. I was concerned if such a Kaboom happened, what a polymer frame might do and that caution can translate to any ammo accident by the way. I own two H&K USP so I am not against these kinds of pistols but I shoot my lead bullets (up to 800 rds now per week) through a all steel 1911 and worry not... but I clean it religiously as I did in military. Now, with my son having five different H&K poly pistols (for some reason he is enamored to that brand), I got the fear of death instilled in him to shoot only FMJ bullets in those. Yes, its do as I say and not do as I did in this case but I don't shoot lead in poly barrels anymore out of pure caution. I know I can do it and probably be just fine as stated by others on the boards who shoot with a good preventative maintenance program. I sure as heck am not going to let my son do it, he can buy after market barrels, feel that $$ replacement barrel pain if he wants to shoot my cast bullets (which he gets for free).

Having said that, I wonder if the Lewis lead Remover would be the ideal tool to use as the final check after bore brushing and cleaning a poly barrel that has shot lead? Does anyone know if it takes it all out and brings you down to lead clean ?

[beex215]

p95 is not poly. ive shot about 2000 cast through mine. xdm isnt poly. xd is most likely not.

[Bwana]

"Now, with my son having five different H&K poly pistols (for some reason he is enamored to that brand), I got the fear of death instilled in him to shoot only FMJ bullets in those. Yes, its do as I say and not do as I did in this case but I don't shoot lead in poly barrels anymore out of pure caution. I know I can do it and probably be just fine as stated by others on the boards who shoot with a good preventative maintenance program. I sure as heck am not going to let my son do it, he can buy after market barrels, feel that $$ replacement barrel pain if he wants to shoot my cast bullets (which he gets for free)."

I just found that statement very interesting.

[22Short]

:coffeecom

Here we go again!

[milprileb]

[B]No, lets not do it again. Let it die. Lots of opinions and let it be that way./B]

[blue45colt]

Another gun that has polygonal rifleing is the S&W 696.
For some insight to what works and doesn't and the possible "why" as it relates to the use of cast bullets see Glen Fryxell's write up "The 44 Special Revisited".
I use cast bullets in my own 696, but like Glen found out, bullet weights of around 180 to 220 gr. with sufficient driving band width seem to work best.

[BAGTIC]

Most manufacturers instruct to not shoot any handloads out of ther guns. How many take that as gospel. The manufacturer's lawyers are just protecting their clients by denouncing any act that might be the subject of legal controversy.

Years ago an oldtimer told me that the first thing to do if accused of anything is to deny, deny, deny. And look for someone else to blame. Wonder if he had been a lawyer in his youth?

[LUBEDUDE]

Howdy MikeS , I sent you a PM, my answer here took too long and auto logged me off, thus erasing my post.

[fecmech]

From the H&K website:

What kind of ammunition should I use in my HK weapon?

Use only commercially manufactured ammunition with internal ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI). Be certain all ammunition you use complies with the SAAMI specifications. If you are uncertain, contact your ammunition supplier for verification. If you would like any further information on specific ammunition, you may contact one of the major ammunition manufacturers.

See here for USP owners manual: http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/shared/USP_Operators_Manual_060809.pdf

I did not see lead bullets mentioned anywhere but I did see the prohibition of reloaded ammunition.

[MikeS]

The choice of using cast boolits in a polygonally rifled barrel is up to the shooter of the gun, and like everything else in this world, done properly won't be a problem, but done wrong can be a big problem. I think anyone considering shooting cast lead boolits from ANY gun should do lots of research, and decide for themselves if it's something they want to do, feel confident that they CAN do it, and learn the proper ways to do it.

[scarry scarney]

I was overseas in the military, and picked up an HK P9S in 45acp back in 1978. The P9S had a polygon barrel. As our Rod and Gun didnt sell bullets for reloading, and shipping overseas was too expensive, cast bullets was all everyone shot at our club. I dont know how many thousands of 45 acp cast bullets I shot threw that P9S from 1978 - 1982, but it was a lot! Never had any problems. I never shot more than a 800 rounds without cleaning it first, but....

On the flip side, I have had a Kaboom with both a Glock and a Sig. (Glock had a ploygon barrel, Sig had a normal riffled barrel). Yes, it was cast bullets (same ammo, 40 S&W). Still haven't figured out why, but I pulled all the ammo apart, and went with the concept of too hot of a load. I follow published reloading data! Was it the brass was previously fired in an unsupported chamber Glock? Did the weak brass align with the ramp on the barrel? Did the stars and planets align? Did Murphy decide to visit. I dont know. And I dont care. I bought a new barrel for the Glock, and after pulling the bullets and reloading it, no other problems.

Bottom line, I never had a problem with the Polygon barrel in the P9S, and dont understand the big issue with shooting lead in a Polygon barrel. But, in the end, you are responsible for your own mistakes. It is best to learn from others, but sometimes, you have to learn it from Murphy himself. Just remember, that if you do use the lead in polygon barrel, and something happens, dont complain to the company that told you not to. Sorry for the long rant.