position sensitivity.

[bigted]

unique and what other powders are completely un-affected by position in large cases?

[Baja_Traveler]

Universal Clays and 2400 also in my experience

[swheeler]

Universal Clays and 2400 also in my experience

I have never tried Universal Clays, but have tried 2400 in several large capacitry cases and it is very position sensative, always gets a dacron filler. A5744 and trailboss seem relatively insensative in large capacity cases. Unique is unique, huh wonder who came up with the name.

[bobthenailer]

Tightgroup is not powder postion & volume sentive i use it for all of my pistol rounds 32 acp / 380 / 38 / 357 / 44 mag / 45 acp and 454 casull, for velocties in some cases up to 1200 fps .
In the 9mm & 38 super i get better accuracy with med speed powders.
Ive used about 25 lbs so far and will be ordering 2 more 8 lb kegs in december.

[Hammerhead]

Titegroup, Clays, Universal.


Worst? IMR SR 7625, I got up to 200 fps velocity swings with .38 spl and 125 lead when pointing up or down before firing.

[Char-Gar]

unique and what other powders are completely un-affected by position in large cases?

If was you use of the word "completely" that caught my attention. There is no such thing as a powder that is completely unaffected by position. There are however, some powders who are not significantly affected by position.

I am not trying to split hairs, but sometimes the small differences in terms and concepts, do matter.

[Rocky Raab]

You Know, it occurred to me that I very seldom shoot at my own toes, and therefore "position sensitivity" isn't much of an issue with me.

If I ever DID shoot at my toes, I might even be glad for a squibber...

[btroj]

You Know, it occurred to me that I very seldom shoot at my own toes, and therefore "position sensitivity" isn't much of an issue with me.

If I ever DID shoot at my toes, I might even be glad for a squibber...

Likewise for me. I also don't tend to shoot at planes flying over heard.

I don't have any troubles wi 2400 at all. I haven't used a filler in years.

Like Chargar sad, there are no absolutes. I don't have trouble with 2400 but others will say they get better results with a filler. To each there own.

My suggestion would be to try both and see what works best for you and your gun.

[geargnasher]

If was you use of the word "completely" that caught my attention. There is no such thing as a powder that is completely unaffected by position. There are however, some powders who are not significantly affected by position.

I am not trying to split hairs, but sometimes the small differences in terms and concepts, do matter.

Indeed. All powders are position sensitive to some extent, although with many powders in many applications the effect of that sensitivity is so slight that many people will argue that it doesn't exist.

Like someone here says, "It only matters if it does". But don't make the assumption that some powders aren't position sensitive, because that's not correct.

Gear

[swheeler]

"I do not use a filler with the Unique, it is a unique powder(pun intended), virtually position insensative."

virtual; almost or nearly as described, but not completely taken from dictionary

That's what I get for using "big" words around you kids.

[btroj]

Thanks Gear for reminding us of what Bass liked to say " It only matters when it does". Probably the single best line I have ever heard here.

[swheeler]

Likewise for me. I also don't tend to shoot at planes flying over heard.

I don't have any troubles wi 2400 at all. I haven't used a filler in years.
Like Chargar sad, there are no absolutes. I don't have trouble with 2400 but others will say they get better results with a filler. To each there own.

My suggestion would be to try both and see what works best for you and your gun.

Have you been shooting a lot of it in the 458 Win Mag? That is the cartridge the OP is loading.

[btroj]

No 458 Win mag but I use lots of 24 gr of 2400 loads with a 420 gr cast in my 45-70. The case isn't even half full if I had to guess. It groups in the 1.5 to 2 inch rang for 5 shots off the bench at 100 so regularly that I feel very confident in that load. No filler.

OP did not specify a cartridge, it just said large case. Most here would agree that a 45-70 is a large honking case.

Best way to find out if it is a problem in a specific gun or load is to test it. What happens in your gun may be different than in mine.

[swheeler]

No 458 Win mag but I use lots of 24 gr of 2400 loads with a 420 gr cast in my 45-70. The case isn't even half full if I had to guess. It groups in the 1.5 to 2 inch rang for 5 shots off the bench at 100 so regularly that I feel very confident in that load. No filler.

OP did not specify a cartridge, it just said large case. Most here would agree that a 45-70 is a large honking case.

Best way to find out if it is a problem in a specific gun or load is to test it. What happens in your gun may be different than in mine.

Yep, that measly little .400 " can and does make a difference, imagine that only four tenths of and inch at .458 dia, hum not much volume, huh.

[btroj]

Like I said- the OP said a large volume case. The 45-70 fits that bill.

[leadman]

I use 20grs of 2400 in the 43 Mauser with no problems. Also use SR4759 in many cartridges of large capacity without issues. Have used 5744 until the price went so high.

[Larry Gibson]

All powders are "position sensitive" in large volume cases. How much depends on the size of the flash hole, loading, density, strength of the primer, how your gun handling affects the powder position in the case and the angle you are shooting at. Also the type of action that is used and the rapidity of loading.

The fast burning, easy to ignite powders are less sensitive than others all things considered.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

All powders are "position sensitive" in large volume cases. How much depends on the size of the flash hole, loading, density, strength of the primer, how your gun handling affects the powder position in the case and the angle you are shooting at. Also the type of action that is used and the rapidity of loading.

The fast burning, easy to ignite powders are less sensitive than others all things considered.

Larry Gibson

Agree completely Larry, I was just passing along FIRST HAND experience with 2400 in the 458WM. I figured Ted would like his groups as small as possible, so I recommended dacron with his 2400 loads, makes mine 1/2 as large with as without in this cartridge at 100 yds. And I will stand by my statement about UNIQUE, VIRTUALLY POSITION INSENSATIVE Now I can understand some of the novices whom have commented here not understanding the meaning of the word"virtually", talking about shooting their toes off or jets from the sky, but I expect more from you. I will say that these "50 yard wonders" may not see much difference, but NOT EVERYBODY is a 50 yard wonder.

[geargnasher]

True, Scott, some of us have a hard time understanding the meaning of the word "vitually" :kidding:

Gear

[swheeler]

True, Scott, some of us have a hard time understanding the meaning of the word "vitually" :kidding:

Gear

It's spelled SCOT

[btroj]

Not a 50 yard wonder at all. In my 45-70 I find 2400 to be virtually position insensitive. My Marlin will shoot 2 inch 5 shot groups using that load at 100 yards all the time. For a stock lever action I think that is pretty darn good. I have never tried it with Dacron as I don't see a point to it.
I can't speak for Unique as I don't use it for rifle loads very often. For whatever reason I use 2400 for pretty much all of my reduced load cast bullet shooting. It works well for me so is tick with it.
I just have not found a need for filler with 2400. My FIL uses a filler with it all the time. We have pretty well decided that we each have loads that work for us even though we use a different approach. Isn't that what reloading is all about?

[swheeler]

Not a 50 yard wonder at all. In my 45-70 I find 2400 to be virtually position insensitive. My Marlin will shoot 2 inch 5 shot groups using that load at 100 yards all the time. For a stock lever action I think that is pretty darn good. I have never tried it with Dacron as I don't see a point to it.
I can't speak for Unique as I don't use it for rifle loads very often. For whatever reason I use 2400 for pretty much all of my reduced load cast bullet shooting. It works well for me so is tick with it.
I just have not found a need for filler with 2400. My FIL uses a filler with it all the time. We have pretty well decided that we each have loads that work for us even though we use a different approach. Isn't that what reloading is all about?

Your father in law sounds like a smart man.[smilie=s:

[btroj]

Different strokes for different folks. He taught me to reload. I learned lots but have gone my own way.
I will agree that fillers have a place, I just don't use loads that call for them. I prefer to keep things simple and avoid the extra steps.
I find it interesting that so many get such good results from such a varied set of loading methods/styles. How one can get great results with a certain lune, bullet, whatever when others have failure always amazes me. Just goes to show that Bassakward was right when he said "It only matters when it does".

[Three44s]

You Know, it occurred to me that I very seldom shoot at my own toes, and therefore "position sensitivity" isn't much of an issue with me.

If I ever DID shoot at my toes, I might even be glad for a squibber...


Elmer Keith had to shoot where his toes had just departed when he stepped on a rattler (he jumped straight up and fired into the snake).


Also, I can think of hunting cougars and shooting pretty vertical in the up postition if they are treed or bayed up.

Best regards

Three 44s

[btroj]

Elmer Keith had to shoot where his toes had just departed when he stepped on a rattler (he jumped straight up and fired into the snake).


Also, I can think of hunting cougars and shooting pretty vertical in the up postition if they are treed or bayed up.

Best regards

Three 44s

This is true. However, I don't hunt cougars and don't often go into places where rattlers are an issue.
I also don't think Elmer worried about position sensitivity with hand gun loads- he loaded them to the gills!

If I was going to shoot treed animals I might take this into account, however, most of my shooting is on a pretty lever range so this isn't a factor.

[Larry Gibson]

Alliant and the older Hercules 2400 are far from being position insensitive. In cases where loading density is high it is but in those cases where the loading density is less it is position sensitive. Just today I conducted a test of Alliant 2400 in my Contender 21” Carbine. The bullet used was the GB C312-150-FN. My mould drops the bullets, cast of WWs + 2% tin, and fully dressed with a Hornady GC and Javelina lube at 155 gr. The bullets were sized to .311 for use in the 30-30.

The Contender barrel has a strain gauge attached so psi was measured along with velocity. Load work up was from 14 gr to 18 gr 2400 in 1 gr increments with no filler.
The 14 gr load gave a uniform 1651 fps, 16 fps SD, 48 fps ES with a psi of 21,900 psi(M43). The 100 yard 10 shot group was 2.75” with some vertical string. That was probably me as I was getting used to the light Contender. The 15 gr load was better at 1.5” group for 10 shots at 1728 fps, 14 fps SD, 45 fps ES.

Now I’ve shot lots of 16 gr loads of old Hercules 2400 and the newer Alliant under the RCBS 150 gr cast bullets and it pretty much was my standard 30-30 load for that bullets. However, I had not pressure tested it before. I expected the same load with the GB bullet to do as well. However, even though the accuracy was the same 1.5 moa I expect out of this barrel with K4X Weaver scope I found some surprises with the psi. The velocity was 1815 fps, 25 fps SD, 79 fps ES and the psi was 28,600 psi(M43) with an ES of 9,300 psi. That is quite a spread. I had changed my technique of closing the action and knew on some shots the barrel had been elevated. I happened to have another 10 shots of the 16 gr load so I decided to run 5 shot strings with the barrel tipped down for 5 shots and tipped up for 5 shots.

The barrel tipped down velocity was 1781 fps, 12 fps SD, 28 fps ES with a psi of 26,000 psi(M43) and a psi ES of 1,900 psi(M43). The 5 shot group was 1” lower than the level fired 16 gr load.

The barrel tipped up velocity was 1861 fps, 16 fps SD, 38 fps ES, with a psi of 33,800 psi(M43) and a psi ES of 3,000 psi(M43). The 5 shot group was 1.5” higher than the level fired 16 gr load.

What we see here is a velocity ES of 114 fps and a psi ES of 11,200 psi. That is quite an extreme of both velocity and psi based on powder position. The group size for those 10 shots was a vertical string of 4.9”.

I do think my previous experience and advice to use a Dacron filler with lighter than 170 gr cast bullets in .30/.31cal rifles with 4227, 4198, 5744 and 4957 shall now include 2400 as well. However, before actually recommending such I shall test this combination (probably test 12 – 17 gr in 1 gr increments) again with a Dacron filler included.

BTW; the 17 gr load at 1893 fps began exceeding the RPM threshold for that alloy in this bullet with 2400 in this 10” twist barrel. The group opened up with 3 distinct flyers. The psi was 31,600 psi(M43).

The 18 gr load really was past the RPM threshold as the 10 shot group went to 4.8”. The psi was 33,000 psi(M43).

As we see here in some instances 2400 can indeed be position sensitive, as can all powders under certain conditions.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Larry; thanks for that information, 11,200PSI , wow quite a spread!!! Viva la Dacron!

[swheeler]

Larry; since VERY few of us here have pressure test equipment, I am sure MANY would love to see a similar test with Unique in the old thutty-thutty, just for grins. Kenny O and his PBL has opened many eyes, wish I had one!

[Larry Gibson]

swheeler

I can certainly do that and have considered running the test in either the 30-30 or the 308W with 311041 (170 gr), C312-150-FN (155 gr) and 313631 (105 gr) GC'ed bullets. I was going to use the standard 12 gr load of Unique for the 2 heavier bullets and 8 gr with the 313361 bullet. So much to test.....so little time........:grin:

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

I do not have the equipment to devise a test like that Larry. All I have is a gun, some ammo, and a target. Until I see a significant reason to use a filler with my 2400 load in the 45-70 I will continue to use no filler. The target keeps telling me the load is meeting my expectations so I keep ignoring the need for a filler.
Those of you who chose to use one can continue, I for one will keep going along on my ignorant little way and just shoot.

[williamwaco]

About a year ago I tried an experiment with Unique in the .38-55.
The load was 9.0 grains with a Lyman 375449 250 grain bullet.
Primer CCI LR.

I fired 10 shots with the powder unarranged, just picked them up and stuffed them in the chamber.
I fired ten shots with the powder settled to the primer by tapping it on the bency three times.
I fired ten shots with the powder settled to the front by tapping the bullet nose on the bench three times.

The rifle was a Winchester 1885 high wall so maintaining the powder orientation was easy.

After firing I was not surprised that the results were very similar but I was shocked at the fact that there was NO detectable difference.

The average of 30 shots was 1224fps. The minimum of the 30 was 1214 and the maximum of the 30 was 1245. That is significantly less variation than I expected in any one of the strings, let alone all three.

You be the judge.

[swheeler]

swheeler

I can certainly do that and have considered running the test in either the 30-30 or the 308W with 311041 (170 gr), C312-150-FN (155 gr) and 313631 (105 gr) GC'ed bullets. I was going to use the standard 12 gr load of Unique for the 2 heavier bullets and 8 gr with the 313361 bullet. So much to test.....so little time........:grin:

Larry Gibson

Larry; I will be waiting and am sure many others here will also. A .250 BC 45 cal bullet(Lees 450 FN PB) at 1300 fps and 100 yard zero, strikes about 9 inches lower than same at 1400 fps, when both are fired at a 300 yd target, significant to me!
:veryconfu

[Larry Gibson]

I do not have the equipment to devise a test like that Larry. All I have is a gun, some ammo, and a target. Until I see a significant reason to use a filler with my 2400 load in the 45-70 I will continue to use no filler. The target keeps telling me the load is meeting my expectations so I keep ignoring the need for a filler.
Those of you who chose to use one can continue, I for one will keep going along on my ignorant little way and just shoot.

Seems you going into a nut roll for nothing. I never said that a filler was or would be necessary, especially in some 45-70 loads. What i said was; "In cases where loading density is high it is but in those cases where the loading density is less it is position sensitive." Note also that I was getting the same accuracy with all but the last test load that you get yet "accuracy as such did not tell the whole story. You don't need to pressure test, a chronograph will tell you the same thing whether the powder used is position sensitive. Simply run the same test I did; shoot a string level, then a string after tipping the barrel down and finally a string after tipping the barrel up. A large change in the average velocity tells the tale.

I also used to shoot a lot of 2400 in my 45-70s with out a filler. I don't any more because my own tests have shown erratic psi and large velocity variations with the low density TD loads I was using. I switched to 4759 with a filler. Were i to use 2400 again for those loads I would test with a dacron filler simply to be safe and avaiod the problem. Your choice whether you want to do that or not, no one says you have to use a filler.

Be advised though, the only documented SEE with a light load of 2400 in a 45-70 was with a Contender in 45-70 using 300 gr bullets. The Contender was loaded muzzle down and then raised into the firing position. Worked fine for 2 shots but on the 3rd shot the SEE occured. Classic ingrediants; large capacity case, low density load of relative slow burning (harder to ignite) powder, lighter weight bullet and a fouled leade. The force of the primer pushed the bullet into the fouled leade where it stuck before the powder was burning efficiently enough to keep it moving. With the bullet stuck the powder continued to burn and it blew.

Not saying it's going to happen if you always keep the rifle level when loading and firing. However, if you carry the rifle and might shoot at different angles or raise the rifle to shoot from a muzzle down position yo might remember the 45-70 does have a documented track record of SEE with 2400 and light loads.

Contrary to opinion, the target doesn't tell you everything.

Just food for thought.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

What do you consider a light load of 2400 with a 300 gr bullet? Just curious. I don't shoot anything much lighter than the 450420 because that bullet shoots so darn good.
I understand that the target doesn't tell me everything but it tells me what I need to know. As long as the bullets strike where I want them to I don't care how case they are going or what the extreme spread of velocities is. I shoot this mostly for hunting practice or plinking.

As for the difference in elevation at 300 yards, not an issue. I am not shooting at 300 yard with this gun. If I was going to I would brush up on my BP load technique and use black powder for that. Then extreme spread does matter.

I suppose that in the end it comes down to the application. I am looking for a good 100 yard hunting load. 24 gr of 2400 with the 420 gr bullet fits that bill for me. If I were looking for the absolute smallest groups I might try a filler, I just don't see where it will make enough difference to be worth the extra step.

[swheeler]

What do you consider a light load of 2400 with a 300 gr bullet? Just curious. I don't shoot anything much lighter than the 450420 because that bullet shoots so darn good.
I understand that the target doesn't tell me everything but it tells me what I need to know. As long as the bullets strike where I want them to I don't care how case they are going or what the extreme spread of velocities is. I shoot this mostly for hunting practice or plinking.

As for the difference in elevation at 300 yards, not an issue. I am not shooting at 300 yard with this gun. If I was going to I would brush up on my BP load technique and use black powder for that. Then extreme spread does matter.

I suppose that in the end it comes down to the application. I am looking for a good 100 yard hunting load. 24 gr of 2400 with the 420 gr bullet fits that bill for me. If I were looking for the absolute smallest groups I might try a filler, I just don't see where it will make enough difference to be worth the extra step.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=128781:popcorn:

[swheeler]

What do you consider a light load of 2400 with a 300 gr bullet? Just curious. I don't shoot anything much lighter than the 450420 because that bullet shoots so darn good.
I understand that the target doesn't tell me everything but it tells me what I need to know. As long as the bullets strike where I want them to I don't care how case they are going or what the extreme spread of velocities is. I shoot this mostly for hunting practice or plinking.

As for the difference in elevation at 300 yards, not an issue. I am not shooting at 300 yard with this gun. If I was going to I would brush up on my BP load technique and use black powder for that. Then extreme spread does matter.

I suppose that in the end it comes down to the application. I am looking for a good 100 yard hunting load. 24 gr of 2400 with the 420 gr bullet fits that bill for me. If I were looking for the absolute smallest groups I might try a filler, I just don't see where it will make enough difference to be worth the extra step.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/kaboom.jpg

[btroj]

So you are saying I am in danger of blowing up my rifle? Come on, I don't buy that for a minute.

[swheeler]

So you are saying I am in danger of blowing up my rifle? Come on, I don't buy that for a minute.

Not at all! Just remember to carry your rifle level at all times while hunting, never cradle it under one arm muzzle down, never rest it on your shoulder muzzle up, and above all never take a shot at game unless it is level to you. Do this and you will be just fine:bigsmyl2:

[btroj]

Hmmmmm, how firmly is your tongue in your cheek?
Actually, I tend to sit on a boat cushion on the ground when hunting. My ammo is kept perfectly level- I keep a level for the purpose, it was tough finding a camp one- so it is ok.
I hired a dozer to level the fields where I hunt. Accurate to within a few inches per 100 yards.
Otherwise, I just keep shooting the same old ammo.

I do fully understand that powder can be sensitive to position in the case. I just haven't found it to be an issue in this one case. I don't consider 24 gr in a 45-70 to be a light load. If I was shooting 16 gr or so I would probably use a filler. Then again, I wouldn't use that light a load of 2400. For low velocities like that would give I would use a different powder- most likely Trailboss.

Should I mention I don't use a filler with 17 gr of 2400 in my 30-30 either? Again, no problems, not a light load. Worked well enough on lever action silhouettes at 200 yards.

Face it- fillers are a tough topic. People have strong feelings one way or the other. I am just too lazy to use em. I tend to avoid loads where I think they might be needed, hence my lack of use of Unique in rifle cartridges.

[Larry Gibson]

btroj

Not much to say as you are set in your ways and swheeler has pointed out the obvious. Not tryyng to change your ways at all. Also not saying 16 or 17 gr of 2400 in the 30-30 with the lighter weight 155 gr cast bullet is bad either. Just pointin out that 2400 is position sensitive, as the test concluded, in some situations as is all powder. I also mentioned I'll probably revisit a dacron filler with 2400 in the 30-30 as I'm not too lazy for that step if it improves accuracy and performance of the load. Note in my target at 100 yards all the shots level, tipped up or tipped down would have killed a deer or a tin can....probably. Myself, I would prefer all the shots, regardless of the angle of the shot or how the rifle was shouldered, go into the 1.5 moa group though. Also none of the psi's exceeded the SAAMI MAP for the 30-30. Is that load unsafe? no indication of that but it did cause a lot of vertical stringing of the group. So, if you find that acceptable then that is fine with me. On the other hand, I do not find it acceptable and perhaps that should also be fine with you, eh?

To answer your question; I consider the low end TD loads of 16 -24 gr 2400 with 300 gr bullets to be light loads. You use more 2400 than that with a heavier bullet so you may be ok. We won't know how position sensitive your load is if we don't test but so far it appears ok with you. Again, that's ok with me.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

I do think 24 gr with a 420 grain bullet, seated to cycle thru my Marlin so it is deep, leaves little empty space. I can't say for certain but I bet 1/2 the available space is filled with powder or close to it.
I get 2 inch groups from my Marlin at 100 yards often enough to be comfortable with it.
I will admit that were I shooting for groups I would look at a filler. I am shooting this in a hunting rifle so I look for hunting accuracy.

I would never hunk of going as low as 16 gr of 2400 with a 300 gr bullet for 45-70 with 2400. To me so many other powders could be used for similar velocity so why use 2400.

My 30-30 load was with the RD 165 bullet. Again, not lots of empty space in the case. This is also fired in a Marlin, this one with irons, so it would be tough to run a good accuracy comparison with my eyes.

I suppose that in the end I will admit that 2400 is position sensitive and filler makes it more consistent but does it matter on paper? Not enough for me. Not for the guns I am shooting or e range I am using them at.

[Larry Gibson]

btroj

:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[badbob454]

wc 820 seems to be, not position sensitive i have used it without a dacron filler in 45/70 gov light loads
i however listen to the sound i have no chronometer

[bigted]

as always i get a kick outta some of the wonderings in a thread. no road seems off limits and all makes an interesting read. i for one am more confused then ever as to which powders are the position sensitive and which are not? i use the lyman book and also an old rcbs pamflet i have for loads and an older lyman book and these also differ as to which loads "need" filler for the "down-loads" . one book says to use fill for a specific load then the same book a few years later lists the same "load" without the need for fill.......all vewwy wacky ?

[btroj]

It is interesting that the older Lyman manuals listed loads with a filler and the newer ones don't mention a filler with the same loads. My take on this is that the decision was more likely made by a lawyer than by a ballistics guy.
Try a load in your gun both with and without a filler. See what works best for you in the that gun with that load. If a filler makes a difference then use it, if not, then don't.
Like someone else here likes to say- it only matters when it does.

[Char-Gar]

The problem with fillers is you have to know what you are doing. Way to many folks who reload don't take the time to educated themselves BEFORE they start cranking out ammo.

[Char-Gar]

as always i get a kick outta some of the wonderings in a thread. no road seems off limits and all makes an interesting read. i for one am more confused then ever as to which powders are the position sensitive and which are not? i use the lyman book and also an old rcbs pamflet i have for loads and an older lyman book and these also differ as to which loads "need" filler for the "down-loads" . one book says to use fill for a specific load then the same book a few years later lists the same "load" without the need for fill.......all vewwy wacky ?

Isn't this stuff fun!!!! Fast burning powders like Unique, 2400, 4227 and 4759 don't require fillers to get good accuracy and a clean burn. This I know for sure and for certain. All the thread drift and shades of opinion and so forth won't change my mind on this. I have fired too many thousand cast bullet loads in rifles to be convinced otherwise.

Your original question was a little off center for a dead on answer. There is no such things as a completely non-position sensitive powder. but there are powders that do the job well without fillers. You have to ask the right question to get the right answer.

[btroj]

I am just happy to see that I am not the only one using 2400 without a filler.

[bigted]

all i know is that i like my 14 grain unique loads with 400 ish boolits and i also like my rcbs load of 4227 with their 530 ish boolit... all in 45-70 cases....just thought id ask a question that i keep coming back to...recon i could have asked a bit more carefully tho...who knew?