Semi Custom '94's?

[Potsy]

Reading all the 94 threads lately has me missing my Trapper .45 Colt (foolishly traded). Been wanting another Trapper or something similar.
It wouldn't have to be real pretty. No Octagon barrels, big loops, vernier sights, etc. It'll be a working gun. Like my Trapper, it'll slide nicely between the back seat of my truck when the seats folded.
New Winchesters are listing over a grand (and will still have crappy chamber dimensions). Marlin just doesn't ever seem to build the rifle I want (heavy, bulky, octagon barrels, etc). I've looked at Rossi's and just can't make myself like them. Sorry, they just look cheap to me.
So I got to thinking, what would it take to re-barrell an old .30-30 to .45 Colt and make it feed? Tighter chambers, with enough length to shoot any bullet I care to.
16.5" Barrel with the tube cut down as well. Recoil pad to keep it from sliding down when leaned up in the corner, XS sight or something similar, sling swivels just so I can pitch it over my shoulder when I'm carrying something else. Made for flinging 8-9 large bullets close up in a thickett or down the hallway. In a hurry, if need be.

Not really looking for a dollar figure, just wondering if making it feed would be cost prohibitive and if anyone knew offhand who did that kind of work. If anyone has actually had it done, I'd appreciate hearing from you.

[Four Fingers of Death]

It might be easier to get a 45Colt carbine or rifle and shorten the barrel and magazine tube.

I think to convert it you would have to swap out the barrel and carrier/lifter (the mag tube and bolt face/extractor should be close to being the same, rim daimeters being .506 for the 30/30 and .512 for the 45).

Trouble is, you will spend serious dollars and end up with a rifle that is inferior to the Rossi. I'd be getting the Rossi and buying decent wood for it. The rifle wouldn't look cheap then. I have three genuine Winchester 92s and two Rossi 92s, one in stainless. There is nothing much different about them. They look the same. But then again, you said that you didn't want anything flash.

[Guesser]

I built a custom 94 in 38-55. Took me a while to get it straight in my wishful mind just what configuration I wanted, but it turned out beautifully and for about half what my estimated cost was. I agree that finding an existing Winchester 94 in 45 Colt and modifying it would be a lot faster, easier and probably cheaper. I did it that way with a Marlin 1894 in 44 and also one in 357. Whole lot faster, easier and cheaper; but I already said that!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Potsy: I have to agree with FFoD above. The 336 action is not well suited for short pistol cartridges. The main issue is the long cartridge lifter which will not accomidate a short cartridge properly, and where as it could be made to work, it kind of defeats the purpose of having an inexpensive gun, by having to put a bunch of extra money into it for the conversion.

There are plenty of 1894 45 Colt Marlin Rifles on Guns America or Gun Broker.com. You could have one for less than $500 easily. Whacking the barrel off to 16.5" is not a hard job and I can see a gunsmith doing it for less than $150 easy.

However: how about this idea? Why not just buy one of those inexpensive Marlins in .30-30 for $200 and whack the barrel off on it and leave the caliber alone. It would be just as much a "Trapper" as one in .45LC, and a helluva lot more powerful. There is nothing wrong with the .30-30 as an all around cartridge for any application that a rifle like this would ever see, and you can even cast Boolits for it. :cbpour:

If you go to Beartoothbullets.com there is a story about the Beartooth guy actually redoing one of these guns as a "survival rifle" with a compartment in the buttstock and everything. I think he had $250 in it when done.

Also the Marlins are much more compatable with modifications than the Win's are, plus that they are alot cheaper. I got my .30-30 made in 1958 for $250, and it will look real good when I get done with it. I replaced NOTHING on it but the buttpad.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

It is funny but here in Australia, second hand Marlins are always a lot dearer than used Winchesters.

[Old Goat Keeper]

I built a custom 94 in 38-55. Took me a while to get it straight in my wishful mind just what configuration I wanted, but it turned out beautifully and for about half what my estimated cost was. I agree that finding an existing Winchester 94 in 45 Colt and modifying it would be a lot faster, easier and probably cheaper. I did it that way with a Marlin 1894 in 44 and also one in 357. Whole lot faster, easier and cheaper; but I already said that!!

How did you get aroudn the length of cartridge problem? I don't think Marlin 94's will take a round that long.

T-o-m

[Four Fingers of Death]

How did you get aroudn the length of cartridge problem? I don't think Marlin 94's will take a round that long.

T-o-m

I think he meant he converted a 94 Winchester to 38/55.

[Guesser]

Yes, it was a Winchester. It was a middle 90's cross bolt safety, low end 30-30 AE. Turned out really nice at a lot less money than I had planned.

[ocelott]

You really can't beat the 45 colt as an all purpose truck gun, I recently picked up a Marlin '94 24" octagon, and it really likes the 250gr. I've talked to a few local 'smiths and they were quoting me about $200-300 to whack the barrel back.

I put Skinner peeps on mine and they work awesome.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/customshop.html
These guys should be able to do what ever you need. I've not used them yet, but I hope to soon.

[nicholst55]

However: how about this idea? Why not just buy one of those inexpensive Marlins in .30-30 for $200 and whack the barrel off on it and leave the caliber alone. It would be just as much a "Trapper" as one in .45LC, and a helluva lot more powerful. There is nothing wrong with the .30-30 as an all around cartridge for any application that a rifle like this would ever see, and you can even cast Boolits for it. :cbpour:
Randy

I like this idea; I've got a late-production Win 94AE Trapper in .44 Mag, complete with .432" groove diameter barrel - it needs a companion piece. I've been seriously considering buying a beater 94 Winchester and chopping the barrel and magazine tube to create a faux .30-30 Trapper. That sounds like a good project to add to my bucket list! :p

[TXGunNut]

You guys are making me proud I scooped a couple of very nice Trappers while they were cheap. Saw one in Cabelas last weekend for three times what I paid for either of mine, both of mine are 95% or better guns. The one in Cabelas wasn't. I think maybe they'll start showing up on used gun racks some day, maybe even come down a bit but it will take time. Hope so, I think I need a couple more.

[W.R.Buchanan]

ocelott: you be better off leaving that Marlin with the 24" barrel alone put another $100 with the $300 you want to spend and just buy one with the 20" barrel outright. West will want $600 just to chop the barrel off. The whole job of barrel chop, and takedown along with action job is $12-1300.

That gun is worth way more with the long barrel, it's not like they are building any more right now. I have one in .44 and I also have a 1894 carbine in .44. I bought the carbine for $300 specifically to make a takedown, as I would never consider chopping the barrel on my rifle that I had to look far and wide to find in the first place.

The short guns are all over the place, and not that expensive.

Randy

[ocelott]

Randy - Thank you for the insight - I had originally bought the long barrel with the intention to cut it down - but you are right - mine is a precision piece that was intended to have the longer barrel. With the 24" barrel and the Skinner peep sights it shoots about 1.5" groups using 250-255 grain cast boolits. I'm looking forward to trying it with 300 grain "slugs"... I just hope that it doesn't change my POI too much.

[NickSS]

I used to have a complete set of trappers but sold a couple of them so I only have a 30-30 and a 44 Mag left. A 30-30 trapper makes a great truck gun and the 30-30 round is so versatile that any pistol cartridge in my opinion comes up short. With proper hand loads you can have everything from a 32-20 equivalent up to a full power 30-30 round which covers a large area of shooting.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The 30/30 trapper is a great gun. I had one, lent it to a mate, he lost it when it fell from his quad bike. he ponied up with the money for another one straight away, but I couldn't find another trapper. Currently have a pre 64 carbeen (20"Bbl) and a 94 Classic with a 24 0r 26" Bbl. The 30/30 is a better choice than any of the pistol length rounds in my opinion. shoots everything from soupcan light loads to 170 Gn at serious velocity (for a levergun). The jacketed ammo available is pretty impressive as well.

UPDATE: I forgot to mention, the 357 Angle Eject Trapper I had was a great gun as well. I traded it off because I needed a 10 shot mag for cowboy shooting. I might try and get it back, my friend who I swapped with says he is too old to shoot much anymore. I sure would like it back.

[Ziptar]

It wouldn't have to be real pretty. No Octagon barrels, big loops, vernier sights, etc. It'll be a working gun.....

Marlin just doesn't ever seem to build the rifle I want (heavy, bulky, octagon barrels, etc)......

So I got to thinking, what would it take to re-barrell an old .30-30 to .45 Colt and make it feed?....

Not really looking for a dollar figure, just wondering if making it feed would be cost prohibitive and if anyone knew offhand who did that kind of work. If anyone has actually had it done, I'd appreciate hearing from you.


I've done sort of what you are thinking, but with a Marlin and I started with a different caliber.

Like you I didn't want to pay the "Cowboy" premium for a 45 Colt Lever with an octagon barrel (I don't like the looks of them, anyway), action job, and etc. I just wanted a 45 Colt Lever plain and simple.

Back in January I picked up a Pre-Safety Marlin 1894 44 Magnum with a 20" Micro-groove barrel at a gun show for $300.00. I suppose I could have left it as is but, I really wanted a 45 Colt.

I ordered a 20" 45 Colt 1894 Barrel from Numrich (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=453900), its a NOS barrel left over from the early 90's when Marlin first produced the 1894-S in 45 Colt. It's rollmarked Marlin - North Haven, the only thing its missing is the JM stamp as it was never on an assembled rifle to receive it. It slugs out at .451 and has a 1:20 twist

I sent the new barrel along with the rifle off to Clements Custom Guns (http://www.clementscustomguns.com/), without ever firing a single round of .44 Mag.

Clements swapped the barrel and also checked its operation and found it didn't feed so well in either 44 Mag or 45 Colt so they also tweaked the Carrier a bit.

The cost breakdown:
.44 Mag 1894 Rifle Purchase $300.00
.45 Colt Barrel from Numrich $111.15
UPS Shipping to Clements $14.00
Barrel swap & Carrier Work $132.50
USPS Return Shipping $29.00
Total: $586.65

And here it is: (its the one on top.)
http://www.ziptar.com/Marlin/The_Marlins.jpg

It's as Plain Jane a working gun as you can get, there is nothing bulky or heavy about it. It's lean, light, and quick. In fact, the bottom rifle is a Marlin 39M .22 with a 20" barrel. It was a basket case when I bought it. As part of fixing it up I swapped the wood from a 44 mag 1894 onto it. There is literally almost no difference in the weight, carry, and handling between the .45 and the .22, it doesn't get much better than that. IMHO, I don't think lopping 4" off the barrel and mag tube would improve things much at all.

Clements does excellent work and after ~600 rounds I've yet to have a single jam or any problems with ejection and feeding. It simply eats whatever I feed it and then asks for more.

Based on that, I can speculate a bit about what you are thinking about doing. At least as far as the caliber and action choice.

Theres a big difference between the dimensions of the .45 Colt and .30-30 so theres allot to account for if swapping calibers. The bolt face, chamber length, carrier timing, bolt travel, and magazine tube size all have to be considered.

The Marlin action is much simpler than the Winchester, that may have some bearing on the success of a caliber conversion.

When I brought the 44 Mag Marlin home I tried it out with some 45 Colt Snap caps. I stuffed six in the tube and cycled it. The 45 Colt almost fully chambered and the Lever was ~1/2" or so from fully closing the bolt. Opening the bolt again ejected the 45 Colt snap cap sending it flying. Most of what I needed for a 45 Colt rifle was already in place.

I used to think I wanted a 16" barreled "trapper" but, after much shooting and handling, I've realized the 20" barrel is the perfect length. The weight saved by 4" less barrel a 2-3 fewer rounds just don't offset the versatility of the 20" or the cost of a "Trapper".

If you start with a .44 Mag rifle instead of a .30-30 there will be a whole lot less the needs to be worked out to get it using .45 Colt.

Numrich has some 16-1/4" Marlin 1894 45 Colt barrels for $61.75 (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=1227170) so you could use one of those for a barrel swap and make a trapper. You'll be looking at additional cost to shorten the mag tube and fit it as well as having a dovetail cut for the forearm. In addition, a while back I saw a post on the Marlin Owners Forum from someone that ordered one of the 16-1/4" barrels for a conversion, apparently it was thin enough that the roll marks on the outside were visible on the inside and the gunsmith rejected it. Another barrel was ordered but, the OP never posted a follow up of how it all turned out.

Another option is the 20" round barrel 45 Colt Marlin 1894 Cabelas sells for $579.00 (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Marlin174-Model-1894-Lever-Action-Rifle/706395.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3D2817643%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=2817643)

You could always have it cut down if you wanted it shorter.

I almost went that route but, didn't for a few reasons. At the time the cost was $750.00 and they've since dropped the price. They are very recent production and are most likely Remlins so build quality is a concern, I wouldn't buy one without handling it and looking it over hard first before plunking down the dough for it. I've also got a thing for pre-safety Marlins so using the older rifle had more appeal for me.

Hope all that helps.

[G. Blessing]

You guys got me to thinkin; What about an octagon barreled trapper? Oct barrels are too heavy IMO in rifle length, bu look great. OTOH, the extra forward weight on a 16"er might handle reeeaal nice, and still look good... Gotta see whats available in Oct barrels locally now.

G.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The new Marlin 1894/357 that I almost bought was just like th eold CZ/BRNOs I used to buy. Solid steel and wood, but as rough as guts as we say here. A sound rifle that need a lot of elbow grease and finishing off. I ended up deciding that I didn't need it, my cowboy shooting learner wife can use my 44Mag Marlin with 44 Specials. It was made in 2002 and it is a nice, smooth rifle.

If you were using a Marlin 1894 hunting and wern't told if it was a 45Colt or a 44Mag, I don't think you'd be able to tell the difference.

The only thing I see wrong with the 44Mag Marlin is the slow twist.

I wouldn't mind re chambering a 45Colt Marlin to 45Cowboy. Basically a Rimmed 45ACP. Great for cowboy with black powder and it would be pretty neat for hunting with the dreaded smokyliss.

[G. Blessing]

I wouldn't mind re chambering a 45Colt Marlin to 45Cowboy. Basically a Rimmed 45ACP. Great for cowboy with black powder and it would be pretty neat for hunting with the dreaded smokyliss.

No re chamber needed the way i understand it, just need new carrier, and i think mag tube follower so they will feed right.

G.

[Four Fingers of Death]

UPDATE: I forgot to mention, the 357 Angle Eject Trapper I had was a great gun as well. I traded it off because I needed a 10 shot mag for cowboy shooting. I might try and get it back, my friend who I swapped with says he is too old to shoot much anymore. I sure would like it back.

UPDATE:

Bugger! A mutual friend has claimed it and is throwing money at my mate, he needs the money to retire, so I'll let it go and try and get by with the 11-12 lever guns that I already have :)

[W.R.Buchanan]

GBlesssing /FFOD. I would not think even a carrier would be necessary for conversion to .45 Auto Rim. That is the name of the rimmed .45ACP, and the cases are available from Starline and many others.

The relationship would be the same as the .44 mag/ Special/Russian. All of which feed perfectly in most Marlins.

The way it works is,,, The lever end feeds the cartridge onto the lifter as it is opened, at a certain point, before the cartridge is all the way on the lifter, the cam on the lever pushes up on the lifter and puts upward pressure on the new cartridge. As soon as the cartridge nose advances all the way onto the lifter, the lifter pops up and blocks the next round from feeding from the magazine.

The action doesn't really know the difference between the length of the rounds and will feed them interchangably. As soon as the nose of the cartridge passes the front of the lifter it rises to block the next round, simple as that.

This is really easy to see on a .30-30 gun as there is a big difference in diameter from the rear of the cartridge to the front. The operation of the lifter is really obvious in those guns, less so in the 1894s due to the nearly cylindrical shape of the cartridges it uses.

This is why they feed RNFP ammo and SWC ammo better than WFN style bullets. More difference in the nose dia.

I wonder if Numrich has any .38 Octagon barrels I could have rebored to .44 mag with a 1/20 twist for my 1894 carbine's takedown conversion?

Gave me an idea!

Randy

[G. Blessing]

Yeah, my bad Randy. The carrier for the shorter stuff is needed on toggle link guns, '60, '66, and '73 action guns... I was for some reason remembering that the marlin '94s needed work for it to feed as well.

Edit; just re-read your post, and you said .45 auto rim.... Isn't the rim dia bigger on those than .45colt? would they go into a .45colt extractor, or mag tube?

I was thinking of cowboy .45 rounds, which is a custom case, made as a .45colt case at .45acp length. According to the designer/maker of the .45 cowboy even the marlins need a carrier changed to feed them;

"" * Will Cowboy .45 Special work in my lever action rifle?
* Cowboy .45 Special was initially designed to overcome the problems associated with
CAS and target use of .45 Colt in revolvers, derringers, and single shot arms. Cowboy .
45 Special cases will NOT cycle in lever actions chambered for .45 Colt unless the rifle is
modified to feed the short round. At present the Cowboy .45 Special is in use in
specially prepared Marlin rifles, as well as in toggle link with specially modified carriers.


* To get the Cowboy .45 Special feed in MARLIN rifles, the rifle is custom-fitted with a new
carrier, short stroked,
""
http://www.cowboy45special.com/FAQ.html


Man, you would mention a take down done octagon.... (SWEET! idea) What all is involved in converting a '94 to takedown anyway?

Hmmm.



G.

[W.R.Buchanan]

gBlessing: first I am no authority on the .45 Cowboy but if it is just a short .45LC which it appears to be, then I don't believe for a minute the gun wouldn't feed them. It would be the exact same relationship as .44 mag and .44 spec, and those guns can't tell the difference.

Lots of times I find people who 'invent' things like to have the monopoly on them. After reading the blurb in the link above it kind of reinforces that . Any time people say things like special parts or custom fitted or other "esoteric " words, and my Favorite "retiming the action", that don't tell you anything about what they are doing, I get suspicious. Notice there was no good picture of a .45 Cowboy cartridge so you can't see what it is, and the only up side to using it was the reduction in powder usuage. [smilie=p: If it is only a shortened .45LC case then it seems pretty easy to use a case trimmer and make the brass, for probably a lot less than they are selling it for. Notice only one source for the brass?

They are trying to sell rifle mods, and if they've got a way to reduce the lever stroke on a Marlin and still take full length cartridges, then they might have something to look at. But IMHO the cartridge itself is a snooze,a dn only good for one thing.

A Marlin bolt goes way past where it needs to go to cock the hammer and pick up the new cartridge. If they are just limiting the rearward travel of the bolt to shorten the stroke and then using the shorter cartridge, then a longer one won't fit into the gun because the bolt doesn't open far enough to accept one any longer. This would take a carrier with the step moved farther forward. They have at that point, isolated that gun to that cartridge, and it won't swallow .45 LC's any more, Obviously it is useless for anything but Cowboy shooting and plinking. I guess you could shoot rats a little faster? It essentially a full race gun at that point. Also you could do the exact same thing to relagate a .44 cal rifle to just shooting .44 Russians or even .44 Americans which are ever shorter. No need for a new cartridge. HUH?

I just can't get behind something like that, I want my guns to do many things and that's why I buy the calibers I buy. They are versitile. This of course is MY OPINION only, and others are free to differ.

I had a subscription to Outdoor Life Magazine from the time I was 8 years old to well into my 20's. My grandmother bought it for me every year for Christmas. I remember and article by Jack O'Connor entitled "New Cartridges are like new Jokes"[I]. This one definately falls into that category. It's more about catching fishermen than catching fish!

IN answer to your other question.

The take down is done by facing the step off the front of the receiver. Turning a register forward of the threads on the barrel, and pressing on a plate that interfaces with the receiver and is timed to stop as the barrel coming into alignment. Then the mag tube is pushed in and that holds the whole thing together. This is only the basics. There is plenty more to fitting the whole mess up and getting it all to work right.

I have been researching this for a couple of years, and there are several "systems" out there and different outfits that do the work. I don't like most of them and the one I do like is done by someone you can't get ahold of.

This leaves me to do my own. But I do have the facilities and skills to do the work, and it is not something that just anyone can do. There is a lot of very precision fit up required. MOst outfits get at least $600 to do the work, and most want to do a complete "action job" on top of that that they can add another $500 to the price.

Believe me and action job on one of these guns is worth about $125. There just isn't that much to it. Paying more is "catching fishermen".

These guns are all about deburring the parts in the action and reducing the drag points per the instructions. A couple of hours and a $10 spring kit will get you 98 % on the way to complete Nirvana, and will not compromise reliability one bit. That extra 2% is for racers, and 98% of them will never be good enough to actually use it or know the difference.

I call it [I]"Hoopla and Oink"

Randy

[G. Blessing]

They say the only difference in ..45 cowboy is that the lower area of the cartridge doesn't taper as much inside as a .45 colt case. Soposedly giving more space for powder. I highly doubt its an applicable capacity difference over a cut down long colt case. I can't see any reason they wouldn't feed either, and will find out soon, I ordered some to try in my Win94AE.


Its funny, I don't know why I've never researched takedown conversions before, I've always wanted one. I can imagine the touchy fine fitting involved; I've done a lot of machine work, but know this would be over my head. Good luck to you!

I'll have to look into the different styles, maybe I could find one i like, and have my trapper done.

Yes, I've noticed that everybody and his brother offers an over priced action job... so much money for so little actual work. I learned to do my own; like you say, some smoothing and springs and you save a fortune.

G.

[excess650]

I have a Marlin 1894CP. Its the 16-1/4" .357mag that was made with cut rifling and ported barrel. I saw several last year at a gunshow that were NEW in 45 Colt.

To be honest, I don't find any advantage of the 16-1/4" barrel vs the 18-1/2" barrel of the 1894C. I have both, and (1894C 18-1/2") with microgroove and cut rifing.

I thought it might be nice to have one of the 1894CBs in 357 24" back when they were available, and then I handled one. It was too heavy! I've since handled the 20" octagon variation but didn't think it worth the extra $ vs the 1894C.

I had previously owned a couple of 1894s in 44mag, but didn't appreciate the recoil. Too they seemed particularly fussy about loads, and that was likely related to their slow rifling twist. Marlin's web site lists the same slow twist for the 45 Colt. The 357 comes alive in a carbine length barrel without noticeable recoil. My standard load is the 185gr Saeco #354 over a stiff load of H110.

I also have a Browning lowall in 357. I could have bought in 44mag or 45Colt, but prefer the 357 in lightweight rifles.

[W.R.Buchanan]

excess: the .44's with hot loads definately will smart. My 1894 Rifle has a substantial Pachmayr recoil pad that I installed after the first time I shot it. There is a picture of it on my .45-70 Refinishing thread near here.

People don't realize they are launching some pretty big boolits. A 250 gr bullet at 18-1900 fps is nearly into .45-70 territory. A 300+ gr bullet at 1600 fps is midway up .45-70 ballistics. Garrett Ammo loads 340gr bullets in .44 mag. and that's alot of lead to sling around either from a pistol or a rifle.

Those same sized bullets are launched from a .375H&H at 23-2500 fps and they are approved for anything on earth. But when you consider that .44 Pistols have taken everything on earth at 13-1500 fps why not a Rifle?

One way or another you are going to get slapped. The idea is the round is so versitile with hand loading that you can practice alot with light rounds and then only have to get hit hard the few times you shoot at meat.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

GBlessing: You have to dig deep because there is very little info on take down conversions out there. That's why it took me 2 years to find what I needed, and some of it I just plain had to figure out myself as nobody was offering specifics.

Being a toolmaker helped, and I am not about to do a conversion that relies totally on "workmanship" to make it work. I want adjustment as virtually all of the successful takedowns have some way to take up the slack.

I looked at how the browning .22 auto rifle works and the M12 Winchester shotgun. Both use iinterupted threads, however I wanted a full thread for strength, so I looked at the original Marlin system and it was weak. Winchester rifles use a system similar to the M12 shotguns but with no interupted thread and no adjustment.

What I'm doing is similar, but with a way to adjust.

Most of the rifles use the magazine tube to lock the barrel in place, so there has to be a way to slide it out of the receiver far enough to clear the receiver, so additionally there has to be some kind of Quick Release on he mag tube at the muzzle end. Some use opposing spring loaded buttons, some use a knurled knob, there is a variety of solutions to that problem. Picking one that is not UGLY is the only issue.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

Those same sized bullets are launched from a .375H&H at 23-2500 fps and they are approved for anything on earth. But when you consider that .44 Pistols have taken everything on earth at 13-1500 fps why not a Rifle? Randy

More to do with bullet integrity and a bit shy in velocity than anything else. They could, under ideal circumstanses take most anything, but the 458WM barely achieves the 2200FPS that has been seen as the necessary velocity for many years, with a steel Jacketed 500Gn bullet and most professional hunters and experienced dangerous game hunters woul prefer a Lott. A 44Mag isn't even in the same ballpark. I love the 44Mag, have two pistols and two rifles in it, but no way would I be squaring off against dangerous (read African dangerous) game with one. Heck, I'd be reluctant to use my 375H&H, but my 416Rigby would be ok. Heck, they been shooting dangerous game over there for many, many years, I have no wish to risk my life trying to re- invent the wheel. I would like to have my 44Mag (or my Ruger45Colt convertible strapped to my belt at teh same time though.

[W.R.Buchanan]

FFOD: a .44 rifle wouldn't be my first choice either, but with 300gr solid brass bullets pushed up to 18-1900fps I would at least be able to stand there like a man if there was no place to go...

There have been some tests (and I don't recall exactly where I saw this test), but the over all jist was .45-70 with .500gr cast at 1600fps doing 48" in wet news print and .458wm with 500gr FMJ at 2150 only doing 44" in the same stack of newsprint.

The point was the slower bullet did not set up as big a shock wave in front of the bullet as the .458 did and as a result there was less resistance to the slower bullet and thus deeper penetration. These bullets kill by penetration, and leaving a 1/2 hole behind.

I don't know if I'd be willing to test this out for real on a 4 ton Elwephump myself but I have conferred with them that knows on this subject and they assure me that the gun will definately do the job. And like you said under "Ideal circumstances", so I guess it would be up to you to produce the ideal circumstances real quick when your back is against the wall! That would definately be the 'moment of truth'! If all you have is a .44 rifle and there is no place to run you best be stickin' out your chest and takin' care of business.

I do know that my back would probably give out under the strain of supporting such a big set of Cajones after being involved in this situation and living to tell about it.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

The elephant is hard to stop with anything other than brain shots with steel jacketed bullets apparently. This is becayseof the honeycomb of bone that the brain is encased in. Traditional hunting saw most elephants taken at under 30-50 yards. Muff the shot and let it live long enough to get your scent and it was trampling you in it's death throes. Shooting from somewhere it can't get to you (eg, from a cliff above or from range using modern guns capable of accuracy from a distance, it probably doesn't matter if it takes a while for the elephant to die.


I can't see the point in hunting dangerous game when the odds are all in your favour (it is not dangerous game if it can't get to you if you screw up). If I was being charged and a 44 pistol or rifle was all I had, I'd have a go, not able to run anyway). If I was going out to hunt elephant, the 416Rigby would be my minimum, the 470 my preferred choice, both with top quality steel jacketed bullets. The 375H&H I love, but that's a buffalo rifle.

The only time I would use cast in Africa would be for pot shooting and small cats with a 45/70, I don't include lion in that, 416 Rigby, jacketed soft points would be my choice there.

[Canuck Bob]

I haven't read all the posts but it seems a nice 92 action would suit your needs well. Instead of spending a ton on barrel swaps why not consider an early Browning B-92 in 44 Mag and cut the barrel? You can get pre-tang safety Brownings and I personally own a tang safety Winchester 92 without complaint.

I sure like the handling of my 92 compared to my 94 but there is no EA option with a 92.

I also think a 30-30 or preferably a 32 Special Trapper model would be a great rifle. However my go to gun is a 444 Marlin so I sure like big heavy FN bullets for serious work.