Mixed feelings on .475 BFR

[subsonic]

I recently purchased a new .475 BFR. I have to say my experience with mine is different than what some others have had.

When I first took it out of the box I noticed a heavy copper streak in the bore at about 3 o'clock. This was copper was so heavy and prominent you could see it clearly without a bore light by just looking into the muzzle at an angle. I took it home and cleaned it with copper solvent until it was gone, but the rifling never looked "right" or sharp where it had been fouled.

My first time at the range I had poor accuracy (partly my fault) - I'm talking groups the size of a paper plate @ 25yds! I can hold 3" at 25yds on my worst day. And heavy leading after only 5rds. My load is/was a 400gr Lee cast of WDWW @ 22-25bnh, sized in an RCBS .476" sizer and lubed with LBT Blue Soft over either 23gr or 26gr of H110 with a CCI350 primer in new Hornady brass, loaded with Hornady dies and roll (not taper) crimped. I loaded 15 with 26gr of H110 for the first time out.

At the end of the first 15 the bore was SEVERELY leaded, so I took it home and cleaned it and looked it over. I figured maybe it still had some copper or something so I made it spotless using chore-boy on a brush followed by wipe-out and patches.

The next time out I only loaded 15 again, this time 23gr of H110, and just shot at 7yds to get a feel for the gun and see if it was going to lead up again with this lower pressure load. Sure enough, after 5 shots, leading was starting on the right side of the bore where the copper had been. By the time I was done with 15, most of the bore was heavily fouled.

I contacted Magnum Research and they suggested I check a couple of things, including the hand or pawl not carrying the cylinder all the way into time since they had some guns go out with short pawls. This was part of the problem, but once locked by hand, it was out of time the other way too! Back it went on MR's dime, and while it was there I had them do a trigger job for $85 and fix the crooked front sight that listed to the left. The report was that they replaced the barrel and re-timed it. The chambers are now slightly looser too..... but the cylinder seems to be the same one because the drag-line looks the same. Front sight is now straight. Upon receipt there was a little bit of copper fouling again, more evenly distributed this time.

The throats just barely take a .477 Minus pin, which mics .4765" and my boolits are coming out of the sizer measuring .4765" at the smallest dimension, .477" at the largest (opposite the mold parting line).

So I get it back and the timing looks much better. The bore looks better, but I can see some tool marks near the muzzle that can be felt with a q-tip also. My hopes are high and the trigger is nice, but I have felt better.

Back to the range yesterday with the last 14 of those 400gr Lee's I cast up over 23gr of H110. The gun seems to shoot pretty accurately - 2" for 5 @ 50yds with open sights, which might improve with more skill behind the gun - but here's that (many curse words I can't say on here) leading again! This time starting at 6 o'clock near the muzzle (oddly where the tool marks are!), and not quite as bad - but after 14rds it "filled out" to where it covered most of the bore from about 2 to 10 o'clock.

See the pics for the groups from yesterday and before and after pics of leading in the barrel. The first 2 bore pics are from right after the second batch of 15 right before I sent it back, and the 3rd pic is from yesterday.

I sold other guns to get this BFR because I was looking for great accuracy and headache-free cast boolit shooting.[smilie=b:

[subsonic]

Didn't have room for the leading picture from yesterday. Will clean some stuff up and throw it on this post.

[tek4260]

Dang that sucks especially after all the great things me and others have had to say about BFR. Sounds like you got a dud and BFR fixed it(or at it anyway).

So the leading now is only right at the muzzle? Those Lee molds have teeny little lube grooves and you could be running out of lube. I had Clements cut mine to 4 5/8 before shooting it, so I might would have seen the same issue as you had I shot it when it was long.

Also, 26gr should give you better accuracy than that 23gr load.

Someone here who knows the answer will chime in shortly.

[subsonic]

Leading starts after just 1 shot building up near the muzzle @ 6 o'clock. Each round "grows" from there leading back toward the cylinder and out away from 6 o'clock. Odd that it happens right where the tool marks are....

Half of me wants to fire-lap the darn thing and the other half says send it back again because fire-lapping will probably void the warranty, may not fix it, and I shouldn't have to fire-lap a gun that costs this much!

[subsonic]

And just to clarify, I think the accuracy is there - before the lead builds up...

44man sent me some of his boolits and I will try them and his load next time out - but if those lead the bore - this SOB is going back to MR!

[tek4260]

I have some Cast Performance boolits that came with a 480 trade that you are welcome to try as well, but they are GC'd so they may not tell the true tale about leading.

[subsonic]

Thanks for the offer, but I want it to shoot plainbased boolits - was one reason for purchasing it.

I'm going to clean it up and see if I can get a good pic of the tool marks on top of the lands. There is one big spot that looks like there is part of a land MISSING - has an oval piece out of the top of it.

I almost had them chop this to 5.5" while they had it...

[Whitworth]

I am sorry to hear about your problems with your new revolver. Please keep us posted.

[subsonic]

I am sorry to hear about your problems with your new revolver. Please keep us posted.

It's ok. The way my luck runs, if they have ever made a bad one, it will be the one I get! [smilie=s:

[subsonic]

I cleaned it up and took some pics from 3 different angles. It looks like they use some tool that fits in the muzzle to screw the barrel on and it doesn't fit right. 4 of the lands have the same mark in different ammounts.

I also shot some pics of my Ruger Bisley just for comparison sake. It doesn't lead with plainbases and shoots decent, but could do better. I'll throw them up in the next post.

[subsonic]

And here's the Bisley's muzzle after a few hundred rounds of different cast boolits, PB and GC:

[crabo]

I'd shoot a couple of hundred jacketed through it and see what happens, but I would be cleaning the copper out as I go so I wouldn't be just burnishing the copper in.

[dmize]

From what I have always read and experienced. Leading at forcing cone area is soft bullets bad fit, leading at the muzzle is a lube issue. The machine marks do throw a monkey wrench into the mix too.

[44man]

I would just break it in. BFR barrels are supposed to be hand lapped. My new .500 is perfect but I had a few streaks of lead that wiped out and it is now fine.
I would be a good idea to shoot some jacketed and clean the copper after each shot for a while. he gun sounds like it will come around.
Many new barrels will lead some so clean more often so boolits rub steel and not lead.

[subsonic]

After thinking on it for a while while working on honey-dos, I can't see how a tool mark could cause leading behind it, and even after the first shot there was leading behind the tool marks. And the marks are lower than the the top of the land, so the boolit should, in theory, just glide over them.

As I mentioned above, I will try 44mans boolits and load first, and go from there. That will rule out alloy, boolit design, and lube - since his boolits are a known good quantity.

If it leads with those, it's going to visit MR again. A hand lapped bore should not need a break in and I don't want to waste components, especially a couple hundred jacketed boolit$$, to find out that didn't fix it. There are too many of these that work fine out of the box and I'm not on MR's payroll.

[44man]

I cleaned mine today to see and found some leading but I shot those shotgun shells in the bases with it so It meant nothing. The lead wiped right out with Butch's triple twill patches.
Lead has not built up and seems to keep shooting out with each shot.
As long as the gun shoots, I don't worry.
I do not like to look in my barrels, I just keep shooting for as long as 2 years between cleanings. Yes, if I do look, I see some lead but just don't care. It is just nothing to get excited about. We are shooting lead after all.
I expect leading will go away after I shoot it more, it has in my other guns.
Sub, stop looking, put the camera away and go enjoy more shooting. It will be OK. Just clean more often at the start. That bore will get butter smooth in no time.

[Frank]

Relax. It's normal. Here's mine.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=4269

[subsonic]

I'll ignore what the bore looks like, but pay attention to groups.
The group on the left target above was the 3rd one with the most leading, but 3 of them are real close too.

[Frank]

Here's the 45/70. Clean powder, clean bore. You can even see the tooling marks. They don't smoothen out and they don't matter.
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=4273

[Lloyd Smale]

the leading your getting seams a bit more then normal. A little bit of lead streaks in a bore is ok as long as it doesnt get worse as you continue to shoot but if its building as your shooting its not right.Subsonic and Frank i can shoot 500 rounds out of either of my 475s and my barrel never has near the leading that your showing. Threres no a sixgun in my safe that leads like that. If it did id be looking for a cure. My first thought would be to firelap that barrel but I dont know what mr would say about waranteeing it later if you did. My experience with MR showed me that they love a way to wash there hands of you. So tread lightly. I know there not as expensive as a FA but there still considered a high end gun and you shouldnt have to deal with that kind of leading or tool marks in your barrel. I wouldnt stand for it in a cheap ruger.

[tek4260]

I still think it has something to do with that Lee boolit and long barrels. You could try tumbling some in Alox before you load the next batch. Also, I used Super Moly as a lube on mine, rather than a harder lube. I have wondered why Lee uses such shallow grease grooves. Seems to me bigger grooves would be better, and would remove my only hesitation about them.

[44man]

I expect a little in a new barrel, any barrel and it is rare to have one that doesn't start out with some.
BFR and Ruger barrels are hard and I found a harder boolit will smooth them faster. Maybe better then jacketed.
My SBH does not lead at all with my boolits but it is right close to having 62,000 heavy loads and uncounted light loads. I slugged it when new at .430" and slugged it recently and still get .430".
I just can't get bent out of shape over some leading, things will improve.
Only one thing counts and that is group size. If they open, just clean the gun and start again. The more you run boolits over clean steel, the better it gets.
Yes, I have seen that stuff in muzzles and said "NUTS" but accuracy was not changed enough. It seems the next boolit pushes out what you see and then leaves it's own deposit. A good lube will keep the process going. A poor lube can burn in the bore, leave dry ash and pick up MORE lead. Other lube can rub away in a few inches and there will be none left for the boolit or fouling in the rest of the bore.
Fouling must be kept soft because dry fouling is abrasive as is burnt lube. You want to shoot fouling out, not run it over. It will abrade the boolit, not the bore because a lead layer is in it.
Here is one muzzle and another with some wash in it. Neither has been cleaned in a year and both still shoot lights out. I refuse to clean either.

[buck1]

For years now I have made a patch of 0000# steel wool and with a little oil made about 10ish passes through a new bbl.
Lots of jacketed bullets will do the same thing but cost much more . It has worked for me for 25-30 years now on lots of guns....Buck

[tek4260]

For years now I have made a patch of 0000# steel wool and with a little oil made about 10ish passes through a new bbl.
Lots of jacketed bullets will do the same thing but cost much more . It has worked for me for 25-30 years now on lots of guns....Buck

That sounds like a good idea to me considering 0000 is gentle enough to scrub and not remove bluing. Just curious if it would smooth enough to be worthwhile rather than being a feel good move(which probably helps more than we think).

[44man]

That sounds like a good idea to me considering 0000 is gentle enough to scrub and not remove bluing. Just curious if it would smooth enough to be worthwhile rather than being a feel good move(which probably helps more than we think).
oooo steel wool will not hurt anything but DON'T use it on stainless. Stainless guns are NOT rustproof and any that might load will rust and transfer to the bore. Since we don't clean and oil stainless guns as much, it can become a problem.
Never clean the outside of stainless guns with steel wool.
Use Scotch Brite to remove scratches. Brass brushes and solvent are best for stainless.

[Frank]

On the .475, a few wet patches, bore brush and then dry patch and it's as good as new! But I shoot hard boolits though. So your results may vary.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=4276

[subsonic]

I am shooting hard boolits too. 22-25bnh to be exact.
My bore took a few passes with chore boy on a brush before the lead was cleaned up, with extra scrubbing near the muzzle. I had a pile of lead on my table when I was done. It's not as bad as it was, but it's still not right. Also it should not just accumulate lead in one spot.

I know you guys don't beleive that it's leading bad, but it is. It's not just normal fouling and if you look at the pics, you can see it clearly. The Bisley is just fouled, not leaded. The leading in the BFR is not shooting out with each shot, it's building up with successive shots.

[subsonic]

I still think it has something to do with that Lee boolit and long barrels. You could try tumbling some in Alox before you load the next batch. Also, I used Super Moly as a lube on mine, rather than a harder lube. I have wondered why Lee uses such shallow grease grooves. Seems to me bigger grooves would be better, and would remove my only hesitation about them.

It could be the boolit or the lube. I will try Jim (44man)'s boolits and see.

[44man]

It could be the boolit or the lube. I will try Jim (44man)'s boolits and see.
Let us know how they work.
I think it will get better in time.
Don't wipe my boolits clean, leave them sloppy. Good Felix on them.

[subsonic]

I will load them as i received them. My seater die may take some off, but I will only wipe the brass clean.

Since I only have H110 and not 296, I will go with 25gr. I may be leaving some accuracy on the table, but at this point I'm just testing for leading and any reduction of accuracy from it. I think I may stick the Ultra-Dot on before next time too. Just want to pick up some Warne rings first.

I do still like the gun and think it will work out in the end one way or another. It has already tied with the most accurate revolver I own with no load workup or anything special... I can only see things improving from here.

[Lloyd Smale]

why not just firelap it? Ive done a few guns and have never seen them shoot worse afterward and many do much better.

[44man]

why not just firelap it? Ive done a few guns and have never seen them shoot worse afterward and many do much better.
That would work.
I need to fire lap my body this morning! :veryconfu
Got an arrow stuck in wood at my target and was pounding a screwdriver next to it. I was hit 5 times by some kind of hornet. Pain went fast but today the spots itch so bad I can't stand it. [smilie=s:

[frank505]

your bullets are too small, sized to .476 and the throats are .4765. it is gas cutting, make ypur size die .477 plus.

[subsonic]

your bullets are too small, sized to .476 and the throats are .4765. it is gas cutting, make ypur size die .477 plus.

They come out of the sizer at .4765" by .477"

[44man]

They come out of the sizer at .4765" by .477"
Not that important, I size .476" and if I let boolits sit a long time before loading, they expand to .478" and are very hard to chamber unless I size them again. Those I fired that large were no different then .476" boolits.
My throats are .4765" and the bore is .475". I have found no use for a force fit to throats. There is no sense going over throat size at anytime. It is just a size die then.
I have shot less then 1" groups at 50 with my .44 using .430" boolits in a .430" bore and .4324" throats.
Over size is over blown, it is not needed. If a boolit can be pushed through the throats with your thumb, more is not better.
Why does any boolit need to be larger then the throats????

[subsonic]

Why does any boolit need to be larger then the throats????

The only answer I can come up with would be a thread choke or undersize throat where the boolit "sprang back" because it was so oversize.

[RobS]

The only answer I can come up with would be a thread choke or undersize throat where the boolit "sprang back" because it was so oversize.

If you think it could be the barrel/frame thread simply take a really tight wrapped jag and run it down the barrel; you'll feel the constriction if it's significant enough to matter. This is a common Ruger issue but I haven't heard too many issues with BFR's.

[subsonic]

That was just my answer to why you might ever want a boolit larger than the throats. I don't feel thread crush when cleaning like I do on almost all of my other guns.

I looked at a used .500 s&w BFR and it does not have the big tool marks in the muzzle. There are marks like little railroad tracks on top of the lands, but no big gouges. I wonder if the crowning fixture they use on the .475s is getting some wear.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with you there. Way to much store is put in making sure your bullets are right at throat size or is some cases people want them bigger. I actually own a 44 mag that does its best with 429 bullets and it has 431 throats. You never know with a handgun what it will really like unless you try about everything. that is an odd gun though. For the most part if my throats are within .001 of the bullet size i dont get to excited. Now if your trying to shoot 429 bullets out of a gun that has .434 throats or a bore thats smaller then your bullet you are going to have problems. one thing i will never do is shoot bullets through a throat that is smaller then then the bullet. Its allways better to have the bullets a bit smaller then the throat then bigger. A good example is my two 500 linebaughs and ill throw my buddys 3 500s into the mix too. the throats are between .511 and 5115 in all 5 of those guns. Shoot 511 bullets through those 5 guns and then switch to 512 and group sizes about double. another problem that can be run into and it happened to me is when your shooting bullets real close to throat size in a gun that gets a bit dirty it sometimes can cause problems with chambering rounds. Not what you want when your trying to reload fast during a hunt. When hunting as in self defense the #1 priority in you loads should be reliability. It doesnt do you a pinch of good to have a gun that shoots 1/2 groups if you cant get the ammo into without pounding. My hunting ammo must drop into the chamber of even a somewhat dirty gun without pushing it home or i fix the reason why.
Not that important, I size .476" and if I let boolits sit a long time before loading, they expand to .478" and are very hard to chamber unless I size them again. Those I fired that large were no different then .476" boolits.
My throats are .4765" and the bore is .475". I have found no use for a force fit to throats. There is no sense going over throat size at anytime. It is just a size die then.
I have shot less then 1" groups at 50 with my .44 using .430" boolits in a .430" bore and .4324" throats.
Over size is over blown, it is not needed. If a boolit can be pushed through the throats with your thumb, more is not better.
Why does any boolit need to be larger then the throats????

[Frank]

Frank posted:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=4269

Lloyd Smale:

Subsonic and Frank i can shoot 500 rounds out of either of my 475s and my barrel never has near the leading that your showing. Threres no a sixgun in my safe that leads like that. If it did id be looking for a cure.

Lloyd, are you sure it's lead? How come it cleaned up so easily? The other barrel shoots the same lead at higher velocity and it is immaculate. So that throws out the idea that there is a problem with the BFR. They both have the same bore finish and tooling marks. Both shoot the same alloy w/ GC.

Perhaps it's a lube issue or powder residue. Or if it's leading, maybe it's due to a faster powder causing more immediate force into the rifling, leading to some slippage, a gap then opens and the gas shoots through, streaking the bore with lead, lube and powder residue. Not enough to hurt accuracy, but there is some failure.

[Lloyd Smale]

frank ive got a bunch of handguns. None of them lead like that no matter what powder and bullet combos i use. Some will lead if i push a softer cast to fast or a plain based bullet at over 1200fps but still none leave that much lead in my gun. The fact it cleaned out easily is possibly because low antimony alloys will clean up much easier then high antimony content leading. If you want a bear to clean try to clean a gun that was leaded by linotype. The grey wash in the barrel is real tough to get out. Also if another gun is shooting that same bullet at the same speed and not leading its surely showing you that theres a problem with that gun. I would at least consider firelapping that gun. Ive done many and have never seen it hurt accuracy. Ive had them that stayed about the same but most will become more accurate and it will decrease leading. Now im looking at just the end of that barrel. IF the leading was just at the end it could be lube failure but if its through the whole lenght of your gun or at least the in various spots the whole lenght of the gun its one of a few things. Either your shooting to small diameter of a bullet. Your bullet is to soft. Your bore is to rough or your chamber and forcing cone arent aligned right and your bullet is slamming into the forcing cone tipped. This can also be caused by to big of throats. My first guess is a rough bore because you did say theres tool marks. One more thing to check and i dont know if bfrs suffer from this much but rugers sure do is a constriction in the barrel where the barrel is threaded into the frame of the gun. Firelapping will cure that too. Bottom line is if any gun is leading to the point you have to clean the lead out of the barrel theres a problem.

[Frank]

Lloyd, I don't know how much Sb is in there. But they were very hard, 27 and so big they barely chamber. I don't feel any constriction either. But I'll check everything you suggested. It would be nice if the bore was clean like the 45/70, but then again, with a pistol cartridge, everything is dirty, cases, cylinder. Firelapping sounds good, but I'm afraid to mess with it. It shoots so good.

[44man]

I have 3 BFR's and among my friends there are 6 or 7 more. I have not found any constrictions in them.
A few gather a little lead and my new JRH does. My other 2 have smoothed up nicely.
Now my SBH, who knows what it did when new because I shot jacketed for IHMSA until I got or made molds for good boolits. I kept track of primers for years and it must have over 62,000 heavy loads through it plus thousands of light loads I never kept track of. The gun shows no wear, the bore is still .430" and the only thing I see is some sand blasting on the cone edge. Ball powder will do that. It will do 3/4" at 50 and 1-1/4" at 100 with the RD 265 gr.
I still think the use of STP on the cylinder pin and ratchet prevented wear, it is like a cushion of lube. I have no end play beyond what was there when made.
I have sheared grip frame screws when they got loose, wore out a hundred elevation screws, changed mainsprings every year until I went to Wolff over power. I destroyed scopes and cheap red dots when I went to hunting with it. I shoot my 330 gr for deer and it takes them down right quick.
The bore is dead smooth but if I shoot some silly boolit alloy with poor lube, it will lead up. Someone sent me test boolits with some coating on them, about filled all the grooves. It took me a week to clean it. :shock: Store bought bulk boolits have been junk but good boolits like LBT, Double Tap and most others are great. Hard lube is not good.
I got samples of Laser Cast and they leaded the bore. No accuracy either.
A good lube will prevent leading or keep it from sticking but remember when I took some brass and all kinds of lubes, a soldering iron and solder. ALL lubes made super soldering flux! [smilie=l: If you run out of flux when plumbing, just grab some boolit lube. No, we don't solder in our guns but it shows things can work 2 ways. Some lead can be shot and other alloys can't. Steel can be cut smooth or polished but tool marks can be there. Even a rough bore will work if marks are made to align with the bore.
The round ball muzzle loader would wear smooth from the cloth patch and lose accuracy. Old timers filled the bore with Urine to etch the surface and I have used vinegar. It really works.
Dead smooth is not needed, just wear off high spots or marks that cross the bore. Power lapping can do good things as can some hand lapping.

[subsonic]

I talked to the customer service guy at MR. I sent him the pictures and he said "Send it back",
and agreed that they would either lap out the marks if they were light enough (not likely) or replace the barrel. He said that the marks are from when the barrel is manufactured and they are supposed to be lapped out.

I would guess maybe they (Badger) drill these blanks, then chuck them from the inside and turn the outside true to the bore so the barrel goes on straight. Just a guess. My original thought was that they used some sort of crowning tool that had an arbor that fit the bore or that there was a tool that fit into the rifling for installation the way some S&Ws are put together.

I can definitely vouch for customer service at MR as being top notch. They are paying shipping for the 2nd time and have given me no trouble at all.

[Heavy lead]

I talked to the customer service guy at MR. I sent him the pictures and he said "Send it back",
and agreed that they would either lap out the marks if they were light enough (not likely) or replace the barrel. He said that the marks are from when the barrel is manufactured and they are supposed to be lapped out.

I would guess maybe they (Badger) drill these blanks, then chuck them from the inside and turn the outside true to the bore so the barrel goes on straight. Just a guess. My original thought was that they used some sort of crowning tool that had an arbor that fit the bore or that there was a tool that fit into the rifling for installation the way some S&Ws are put together.

I can definitely vouch for customer service at MR as being top notch. They are paying shipping for the 2nd time and have given me no trouble at all.

I bought a used BFR last year that I didn't inspect close enough, it had a land that was as rough as the grand canyon, no amount of firelapping would take it out. It shot wonderful with jacketed, but lousy with lead, after the first shot, it's gone now.
Luckily my .475 is good. Hope it all works out for you.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im glad there treating you right. My one experience with them wasnt good. Just goes to show you that ANY manufacture at any price range will occasionaly ship a gun that isnt perfect. Ive even sent back custom sixguns that had flaws. I think ive gotten bad guns from every manufacture in the business at one time or another. I had one custom single action that i paid over 1500 bucks for that the first day i shot it the back sight which was a drift adj sight could be pushed back and forth by hand. The gun was suppose to be linebored and it spit lead like there was no tommarow because the cyl was so out of align with the bore. The front sight was tipped to the side so much it was obvious. I sent it back and it was corrected but the gun still never shot any better then 2 inch at 25 yards and it took work to get that. It was a cool little gun and i wanted it to be a good gun but after all that i lost any interst in it and it went down the line. I wont mention the gunsmith but needless to say i wouldnt give him another plugged nickle. I hope they make it right for you.
I talked to the customer service guy at MR. I sent him the pictures and he said "Send it back",
and agreed that they would either lap out the marks if they were light enough (not likely) or replace the barrel. He said that the marks are from when the barrel is manufactured and they are supposed to be lapped out.

I would guess maybe they (Badger) drill these blanks, then chuck them from the inside and turn the outside true to the bore so the barrel goes on straight. Just a guess. My original thought was that they used some sort of crowning tool that had an arbor that fit the bore or that there was a tool that fit into the rifling for installation the way some S&Ws are put together.

I can definitely vouch for customer service at MR as being top notch. They are paying shipping for the 2nd time and have given me no trouble at all.

[44man]

Im glad there treating you right. My one experience with them wasnt good. Just goes to show you that ANY manufacture at any price range will occasionaly ship a gun that isnt perfect. Ive even sent back custom sixguns that had flaws. I think ive gotten bad guns from every manufacture in the business at one time or another. I had one custom single action that i paid over 1500 bucks for that the first day i shot it the back sight which was a drift adj sight could be pushed back and forth by hand. The gun was suppose to be linebored and it spit lead like there was no tommarow because the cyl was so out of align with the bore. The front sight was tipped to the side so much it was obvious. I sent it back and it was corrected but the gun still never shot any better then 2 inch at 25 yards and it took work to get that. It was a cool little gun and i wanted it to be a good gun but after all that i lost any interst in it and it went down the line. I wont mention the gunsmith but needless to say i wouldnt give him another plugged nickle. I hope they make it right for you.
My experience exactly and since I was a part time gunsmith forever I seen a LOT of bad stuff from factories. Rifles and revolvers with barrels pointing to the left so bad the rear sight had to be on a rail 1" to the right.
I do not like line bored guns, they are hit and miss, too many steps that must be perfection.
I seen custom revolvers that out of box Rugers shot circles around too. No one is immune.
I have to caution you to never mention one maker! :mrgreen:

[Whitworth]

And virtually all of the top shelf custom gunsmiths line bore.......

[Lloyd Smale]

A linebored gun if its done right will usually be a better shooter. Theres two problems with it though. Its not majic it still requires the gunsmith to fit the gun up right. If its linebored and the cylinder isnt fitted up right it does more harm then good. Thats why sometimes a sloppy gun like a ruger will do better. Another thing that must be kept in mind with a linebored gun is wear. Every gun gets a bit looser with time and loose that perfect alignment. Bottom line though is you do have a better chance of getting good accuracy with a line bored gun then you do with an out of the box ruger. A major factor in handgun accuracy is that the bullet does the exact same thing each time and if a cylinder doesnt line up the exact same way each shoot the bullet gets slightly deformed differntly each time and that does effect accuracy. I remember a while back John linebaugh took some flak because he didnt linebore. He spent hours of hand fitting parts to insure alignment. He kind of though lineboring was just an easy way out. Some thought that they were getting ripped off because the big buzz word in the day was lineboring and they thought for what they were paying it should be done. Fact is his guns were probably better then the results you would get line boring. I dont know if he linebores now or not but ive owned and shot many of his guns and all were exceptionaly accurate.

[44man]

Lloyd, that is true. A jig is fit in the frame, no barrel. Holes are started in the cylinder. Now the frame MUST be perfect and the threads PERFECT to the bore line.
Now think of this, the cylinder is removed and chambered in another jig, NOT IN THE GUN! That jig must be perfect, not .0005" out of line.
All looks good, then a barrel made out of house is screwed in the frame. Just how perfect are the threads? Is the bore in the exact center of the barrel. .0005" might be too much out so you need to add any variance of the cylinder and any variance of the frame.
Now lock the cylinder so tight it can't align itself to the bore that is not perfect. DISASTER with a capital "D"! :veryconfu
Leave some play in the cylinder and all will work out and the gun will shoot better and last longer.
Guys love the solid lockup but that is not what makes a revolver work. If a gun is line bored, the cylinder MUST lock tight but it should be relieved at the end.
Side play in a cylinder is there for a reason, not to make a guy feel good.
Fitting a super tight cylinder pin can also remove accuracy if the cylinder can not align itself but it is another touchy-feely thing to show friends how tight the gun is.
Perfection can not be maintained with anything on earth. Tools wear, people are not perfect, no gun maker has ever made all guns perfect.

[Lloyd Smale]

Your right 44man but ill add that if a gun is rock solid tight and is aligned properly you will usually have an exceptional shooting gun. My linebaugh built 475 is a good example of it. Its even tighter then my two FA guns and it is the flat out best shooting revolver ive ever owned or shot. Alot of accuracy in a gun is just plain luck. John told me once he can build two identical guns at the same time and using the exact same material and methods and one will be a tack driver and the other an average shooting gun. He called it being possesed by gun gremlins. theres just to many things that come into play with a revolver to gurantee accuracy. thats why you will never see a custom gunsmith guarantee any kind of an accuracy standard

[frank505]

Amen Lloyd, my 500 Linebaugh is a very accurate sixgun and it is made of parts from John's big flood. In fact Oaks and I put the thing together and it still shoots well........................

[44man]

You see the big picture Lloyd, unlike others.
I did a lot of locksmith work too and had to open locks called "Can't pix". I made keys to change pins so I could get locks open. All of these holes in the bushings were HAND DRILLED. Many bushings stacked for the right length.
Find me a revolver cylinder cut with this precision! I DID IT BY HAND!
The very best job I had was when a lady locked herself out with a young child in her home. She was frantic but I got her door open.
I look at guys posts and have to ask "just what do you know for sure?"

[44man]

I designed the first lighted bow sights. Look at these 6-32 screws. I drilled them all the way through by hand, holding the screw in one hand and the drill in another, 1/16" hole. Fiber optic and a lens at the end. Yes, the little things on the end of the wires are bulbs that went in the holes. The top one has a diode.
I made all of the battery holders by hand.
There is not a single person here that can do what I did by hand. They would be hard pressed to do this with a lathe.
Could I line bore a gun to perfection? NO, it can't be duplicated every time. I can't get my stinking lathe to do the same thing twice.

[subsonic]

I am not even brave enough to try drilling that! I would only do a great job of drilling my hand.

[Bass Ackward]

I read a lot of this over and over again but it always fails the common sense test. And you still don't have a clue.

The line bored method of handgun development came about because not all sloppy or conventionally built handguns shoot equally well. Your statements are true if a handgun can be bagged or made to weigh far in excess of the term "hand" gun to minimize physics.(equal reaction to every action) That's why Ransom rests show improvement over most people.

Thus line boring enables a less trained (or weaker) hand to shoot better with less practice or to shoot a larger caliber than they other wise would be able to do. OR .... for lack of a better phrase, to better shoot a handgun like a handgun.

What's my proof? Lined bore rules the matches even though they probably wouldn't group.

And the wear argument doesn't hold water either. Just for the simple reason that frame battering occurs from cylinder impact, the tighter something is, the less momentum it can have, thus the longer it will last mechanically. Why you use STP huh? Slop is only going to make you a better piece, right?

So until 99% of people actually want to quit shooting handguns like handguns, or a handgun group becomes more important than actually hitting what you shoot at, the line bore will rule.

[subsonic]

Bass, I think I know what you're talking about.

How long did it take for you to encrypt it?:bigsmyl2:

[W.R.Buchanan]

44man My hats off to you.. I have been machining for 30 years now and I have never drilled a 6-32 screw with 1/16 drill thru what appears to be 1" in a lathe. let alone by hand. The question not that you did it, it is why you did it?

That is, a pretty good trick!, But holding it by hand,,, seems like it would get real hot?

I worked at a place called Gaiser Tool Company. We made the tools that stick wires onto computer chips. We did Small, real well!

I have personally drilled a hole .0004 in dia. (thats 4/10,000 ths) thru .025 of Aluminum Oxide. That's a depth of 100 times the diameter of the drill! We normally call that "gun drilling" It was done by using a piece of tungsten wire .0004 in dia. coated with diamond compound, and it took nearly 8 hours to accomplish. I used a Schaublin Lathe with a Microscope mounted to it though. I did it once! My boss did one that was .0002 thru .015 of Solid Carbide the same way.

The number one rule in a machine shop is. "the less a part is touched by human hands the better off it will be."

The farther we get with technology, the less human hands contact the gun while it's being made. These advances in gunmaking usually occur during wars. However, in the last 25 years the advances in gun making have been as a result of CNC machining, not wars and not hand work.

The accuracy of new CNC machines today is easily one order of magnatude better than 10 years ago.

Revolvers made on new/current machinery should be very close to nominal in both dimensions and tolerances. Thus requiring very little hand fitting of the few parts that need it. Within a few years 99.9% of the hand fitting will be a thing of the past.

In a revolver the only points of inaccuracy can be,,, The relationship between the chambers and the locking slots in the cylinder, versus the the base pin hole/ barrel centerline/ locking lug position in the frame. these are the relationships that affect the alignment of the bore to the chambers. Line boring is a way to achieve this when these factors cannot be controlled. It is the same exact principle as match drilling and reaming for a dowel pin.

The cylinder can be made almost completely in one chucking on a horizontal machining center. Only the front of the cylinder needs second operations, and all of the critical relationships are set by the machine tool in the first chucking, thus eliminating any error incurred by moving the part in and out of the machine.

That leaves the frame, which can have all of the holes for, barrel, basepin, and slot for the locking lug as well as virtually every other hole, also done in one chucking.

A chucking is a holding of a part. Every time you move the part you loose accuracy. Period! It is nearly impossible to get it back after you have released the part,,, It is lost for good. You can get close but it is very hard to get exact repeatability. Sometimes it doesn't matter, so we do it.

Linebaugh is making new guns out of other guns. IE: he starts with your Bisley.

He is fitting a new cylinder and barrel into an existing frame. His cylinders are probably made on a CNC machine and have the chambers left small so they can be "ADAPTED" by line boring in YOUR existing frame if he chooses.

Or,,, he is just making them net to print and relying on YOUR frame to be what it is supposed to be, and only needing to fit the OAL of the cylinder to the frame opening, and the cylinder/barrel gap.

I have talked to this man on the phone a couple of times and I am completely sure he knows exactly what he is doing. I also know for a fact he is no dummy, and is constantly looking for better ways to do what he does.

Everyone in business knows that the cost of labor is the biggest drain on profits. This is the reason that ALL gunmakers, and for that matter all manufacturers period are seeking ways to automate all of their processes.

I happen to know for a fact that Haas Machinery sells 50% of its product to CHINA! Before the recession hit that was 500+ machines a month going to our friends over there, who now own our asses outright.

Now, even though China has the largest unskilled labor force in the world, they know that human hands can't compete with machines when it comes to production quantity, and quality of manufactured goods.

Just go to Harbor Freight and look at the increase in quality of the socket wrenches they sell as compared to the **** they were selling 5 years ago. The new stuff is as good as Sears stuff, and 1/3 the cost.

Go to Walmart and see how many things you can find that AREN'T made in China. That's an eye opener.

There is a reason for this. It's called Machinery. And machines not only make things cheaper they make them better.

The role of hand work in guns diminishes every day. I don't think it will ever be completely gone, but you won't get paid more than minimum wage to do the paltry jobs they need done in the end, and you damn sure won't need a College education. Unless you're the boss.

But the quality of the guns being made the new way will be better than the old ones ever were.

And I could drill that 1/16" hole on a lathe with no problems whatsoever and probably make 10-15 in a half hour. But I'm pretty good, and I wouldn't burn my fingers either. :bigsmyl2: :kidding:.

Randy

[Lloyd Smale]

bass i dont understand how it could allow a guy to shoot a bigger handgun but i do agree that if parts are tight and in perfect alignment that they will take alot more shooting before they show wear. I also dont know what matches are shot with linebored guns? The only place i know of that single actions are shot in comp is cowboy action shooting and theres not much consern about guilt edged accuracy in that.
I read a lot of this over and over again but it always fails the common sense test. And you still don't have a clue.

The line bored method of handgun development came about because not all sloppy or conventionally built handguns shoot equally well. Your statements are true if a handgun can be bagged or made to weigh far in excess of the term "hand" gun to minimize physics.(equal reaction to every action) That's why Ransom rests show improvement over most people.

Thus line boring enables a less trained (or weaker) hand to shoot better with less practice or to shoot a larger caliber than they other wise would be able to do. OR .... for lack of a better phrase, to better shoot a handgun like a handgun.

What's my proof? Lined bore rules the matches even though they probably wouldn't group.

And the wear argument doesn't hold water either. Just for the simple reason that frame battering occurs from cylinder impact, the tighter something is, the less momentum it can have, thus the longer it will last mechanically. Why you use STP huh? Slop is only going to make you a better piece, right?

So until 99% of people actually want to quit shooting handguns like handguns, or a handgun group becomes more important than actually hitting what you shoot at, the line bore will rule.

[Bass Ackward]

bass i dont understand how it could allow a guy to shoot a bigger handgun but i do agree that if parts are tight and in perfect alignment that they will take alot more shooting before they show wear. I also dont know what matches are shot with linebored guns? The only place i know of that single actions are shot in comp is cowboy action shooting and theres not much consern about guilt edged accuracy in that.



Lloyd,

Jim says that S&Ws have grip sensitivity. What he is really saying is that if your hand doesn't exactly fit the grip, you will have a tougher time of controlling the shot under recoil. Most double actions have about .004 slop in the cylinder stop to either side. This is not to alter the feel of the gun but to allow time for the stop to enter the notch during fast operation. So of any revolver action type, the double action will be the hardest to control under recoil and appear grip sensitive.

A Ruger SA has .002 slop to the side and is noticeably less difficult to control "IF" aligned properly. This is confused by the hand position change, but makes my point. Cylinder stops are cheap, so you can get a new one for a SA and file a little off both sides and just see how much difference it makes in the way the gun reacts at the shot or how well you can shoot it free hand. Or you can get an over sized one for a S&W and see the other way, but you might have to fit it up.

Now to come to a properly aligned gun with zero slop. Who cares how you manufacture to get to this point, you can take a Ruger and put in an over size stop to lock it up if you want. If you load consistent ammunition, the gun will react the same to each shot, all you have to do is hold it. Even if it is off a little, you simply move the sights and let it do it's own thing. You DON't have to have rock hard bullets. And the gun will eventually loosen and wear the cone as the bullet will do what needs to be done to get out of there. What movement does a Ransom control and what motion doesn't it? So you can simply roll with the recoil. Or you can build a lighter, shorter barreled gun, or shoot a more powerful caliber. Or shoot heavier loads and bullets. Many ways to say this that amounts to the same thing.

Just realize that I am going on an assumption that most folks are like me. I can NOT control recoil free hand as well as I can on a bench. I have guns that group well, that I can't shoot. I have guns that do perform well, but won't win any benchrest matches. A 38 SP can be difficult to control in a gun that is light enough, so the term "powerful" is relative to weight. I proved to myself that the biggest reason optics improve accuracy (82% for me) is the added weight, not the vision improvement. The Taylor throat is supposed to let the bullet exit the mass of the cylinder and align in the cone of the bore where it is only the bullets weight moving the gun as opposed to the bullets weight and cylinder mass. All tricks to try and avert the real problem of a lack of mass because they don't have alignment.

SA Comps? Google IHMSA results and see what comes up. Last time I did, they usually told you what was used. The Internal results I viewed were 8 of 10 were FA and one Ruger. That's kinda telling if you ask me.

It's not the brand, it's not the manufacturing method, it's the left to right movement that must be controlled.

[subsonic]

Common sense stuff.

I think what Bass is saying, (but I'm not 100% sure), is that recoil forces will twist the gun and slam the cylinder to the opposite side as the gun torques - if there is any play there.

Two holes in that. The torque comes from the rifling turning the bullet - equal and opposite reaction. For that to happen, the boolit has to be at least STARTED into the rifling. Recovered boolits should have dammage from this if it's happening early enough to matter.

The other big hole is all of the ultrslow motion footage of revolvers on the internet that show that the boolit has left the buliding before 90% of the recoil motion happens. Lighter objects tend to get into motion quicker than heavier ones.

Here's two extremes:

J-Frame:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ultraslo?feature=pyv&ad=3690616695&kw=revolver%20slow%20motion#p/u/0/4b07otXKERA

X-Frame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s37ZTy4hLUU

And another just because it looks cool. Remington 1875 I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW93WQ98s-I

And why not an NAA mini?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll47zP1rKT4

Also unrelated, but notice what beats the bullet out of the barrel on any footage of firearms you will see. Puts a hole in the old "gas cutting" myth.

[subsonic]

If you have poor trigger control, it's much easier to yank a light gun off target with a trigger mash.

Get a high magnification (8x or more) scope and slap it on a handgun. As you start to add pressure on the trigger (assuming normal trigger weight of 3-10lb), what happens to the crosshairs? Add weight to the gun and what happens?

If the trigger is 5lb, and the gun is 3lb, which is easier to move?

[44man]

I do agree with much said here except we still run into problems with about any gun. Seen a few sad S&W's lately. Then the next is like a Swiss watch. Hearing about some BFR's with problems. Then the very expensive gun with throats, cone and rifling worn away on one side. The forcing cone looked like an egg from around 300 rounds.
There is still the human element and machines still have to be set up.
I watch that program "How it's made" and what they make does not impress me that much, it is the machines and the geniuses that develop them.
But Bass, play does not mean END PLAY and only enough must be there to prevent binding from heat. Cylinder expansion must be allowed for and even a gap too tight can bind a revolver.
I use STP to prevent wear, not to take up play. But it has a cushioning effect too. It also prevents a lot of gunk from getting in the pin hole. It works wonders in a cap and ball allowing a lot of shots.
Yes, line boring can and does work but I will always contend that some side play and some pin play is needed.
You have been a proponent of "wearing in" a gun but to wear off center does no good.
To have the boolit exit from the throats center the chamber when it hits the cone is always best even if it is only .001".
A gun with a tad of play will always outlast a gun fit too tight if it is out a little. It will also be more accurate so unless a line bored gun is perfect, leave some play.
Look at the success of the Freedom .22 revolver, the hardest caliber to make in a revolver. There is zero room for error with a .22 and the boolit can't pull a cylinder into line, it is far too small and soft.
Larger calibers need the same precision if fit tight.
I have done a lot of shooting with a Jack Huntington SRH conversion to a 5 shot .500 Linebaugh. It has more side and up and down play then a Ruger yet with the short barrel, it is a tack driver to 100 yards. Why wasn't the gun made to lock like a vault? Maybe Jack is smart.

[44man]

How about barrels? Take a hunk of steel, deep drill it and ream. Then rifle it. How about stress in the steel? Does every barrel vibrate the same, is every one accurate?
Make the rifled hole and then turn the outside to configuration, did stress change? Remember the company that took barrels to near absolute zero to relieve the steel?
Barrels are spit from a machine, do they all shoot the same? Or are they like our boolits that some shoot and others fail because of the alloys.
Old hand rifled barrels for muzzle loaders were better and most makers hand lapped them. Then made a mold by hand to fit the bore.
Did you know a man made a wood rifling machine run with a water wheel that would rifle a groove, index and make the next so when he got up in the morning he had a finished barrel?
How he got the cutter to extend for each cut, then retract for the next groove should make all of us look pretty stupid. How did the machine stop when the barrel was finished?
How many of you heard about the smallest drill bit ever made in this country? It was sent to Germany to brag. It was returned with a hole drilled through it. :bigsmyl2:
How did they build the pyramids?

[white eagle]

How did they build the pyramids?
slave labor .......

[subsonic]

The pyramids were already there. They just had to take away everything that wasn't a pyramid.

[W.R.Buchanan]

44man: That drill bit was then sent to the Swiss and they cut it in two and threaded it back together.

THEN,,, it was sent to Gaiser Tool Company and we drilled two new holes thru the flutes for coolant flow.

I'm not kidding!

Currently the smallest "generic" drill you can buy is a #97 which is .0059 and they are made by just about every drill maker. Under a micro scope they look just like a 1/2" split point drill yet are twice the diameter of the average hair.

Another company called "Microcut" makes both square and ball nosed endmills down to .002,,, in solid carbide. You can drill a hole with a ballnosed endmill, so .002 is now doable. However it will take a CNC machine to actually drill the hole as no one could control the feed by hand. Although both Levin anmd Schaublin do make counter rotating drilling attachments for their lathes that have micrometer stops which allow you to "peck drill" a part with as little as a .0001 peck at a time. However this will get old real fast. Better to let the automated machine peck away during lunch!

Randy

[44man]

The pyramids were already there. They just had to take away everything that wasn't a pyramid.
I like that! The latest is they were built with INSIDE ramps with corners left open to turn the blocks.

[44man]

44man: That drill bit was then sent to the Swiss and they cut it in two and threaded it back together.

THEN,,, it was sent to Gaiser Tool Company and we drilled two new holes thru the flutes for coolant flow.

I'm not kidding!

Currently the smallest "generic" drill you can buy is a #97 which is .0059 and they are made by just about every drill maker. Under a micro scope they look just like a 1/2" split point drill yet are twice the diameter of the average hair.

Another company called "Microcut" makes both square and ball nosed endmills down to .002,,, in solid carbide. You can drill a hole with a ballnosed endmill, so .002 is now doable. However it will take a CNC machine to actually drill the hole as no one could control the feed by hand. Although both Levin anmd Schaublin do make counter rotating drilling attachments for their lathes that have micrometer stops which allow you to "peck drill" a part with as little as a .0001 peck at a time. However this will get old real fast. Better to let the automated machine peck away during lunch!

Randy
My story was old, a long time ago so I can see the advances today.
Precision is why car engines never wear much any more.
Just maybe drilling and chambering a cylinder all at once outside the gun can be done with that precision too.
Most CNC machines finish all operations before the part is removed.
Starting in the gun, then moving to a machine to do one chamber at a time is 100% different. So is fitting a perfect barrel made somewhere else.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah I know about the old story part, so was mine, and the older I get the better I was! Car engines are good example of the effects modern machinery have had on our lives. If you remember back in the 60's if you got 60K out of a Chevy engine you were doing really good. Now if you don't get 260K out of a Chevy engine is was a ***. That zero and 5 weight oil you see on sale a walmart is all about the really tight tolerances those engines are put together. Used to be a piston was fitted to about .0015 for a long living car motor. Now they are .0005! and the parts are assembled from boxes on an assembly no fitting required. They are right when they come off the machine. It all about beter machiery better process engineering and better QC. We reap the rewards even if it does cost us 5 years wages to buy a car.

I agree totally, with the custom fitting parts statement except where guns made recently are concerned. With the processes that are being used parts are made in batches and only mated to specific partners before final finish, muc the smae as the car engines above. The amount of fitting on each gun is very minimal.

I was told that the average assembly smith a Ruger is fitting 100 guns per shift. That's 12 guns per hour or 5 minutes per gun! You can't do very much to anything in 5 minutes so the parts gotta be right, off the machines.

I'd be willing to bet that there are problems with certain runs of parts, but I would also bet their in process QC is pretty rigorous. They can't afford to make bad parts, especially big parts like frames cylinders or barrels.

With respect to the custom gun.

If you line bore and match ream one chamber undersized to the barrel You establish the centerline of the barrel with respect to the indexed location of the cylinder. You can then remove the cylinder, chuck it in a CNC mill and drill and bore all six chambers based on the location of the base pin hole and the one cyl you established.

You would also need a fixture you could install the cylinder into that had a base pin and a locking lug to index the cylinder and some way to clamp it all together so it didn't move.

zero/zero would be the base pin hole, and the first position would be the chamber you line reamed. At that point the 5 or 6 hole pattern would be executed by the machine to rough drill, single point bore undersized to establish the position of the chambers and then finsih ream the chamber which will follow the bored holes exactly.

This would yeild a perfect cylinder, problems with tooling not withstanding.

No need to line bore every hole, and the process of line boring only one hole just establishes it's position relative to the barrel centerline. All the rest are defined by the machine, and in all but the most ametuerish fixtures on the most worn out machines will result in True Position of the chambers to less than .002.

True position is a deceiving term as it sounds much worse than it actually is . True position to .002 actually is a deviation of about .0003-4 in both directions. This is close enough for any revolver.

The point of single boring the pilot hole for the chambering reamer is that by single point boring using a boring head you eliminate any problems with the drill that might cause it to wander out of position. When the location matters you single point bore the hole, as this establishes a hole that is perfectly concentric to the spindle centerline. And in this case you follow it with the appropriate chambering reamer which follows the established hole exactly. Same as drilling and reaming a dowel pin hole.

This could all be done in one setup in about 2 minutes run time.

I guess we totally hijacked this thread huh? oh well, maybe someone will benefit from the machine shop lesson. I think they were pretty much done with whining about BFR's anyway. What exactly is a BFR ? :holysheep

Randy

[44man]

Randy, a BFR is a revolver made by Magnum Research. It is a larger Ruger made for the calibers Ruger does not make but the custom shop will make what you want.
I believe Pine Tree makes all the castings and all internal parts are Ruger. Barrels are Badger.
What I like is the twist rates are faster, they like heavy boolits but will shoot a wide range of weights.
They are on the average, put together with more precision then a Ruger and they can shoot 1" or less at 100 out of box if all is right.
Yet, there have been problems with a few just like any gun. As much as I like them I have to accept the fact that not all are perfect.
Yes I have said things about Freedom guns because not all are perfect either. That raises much hatred and I don't know why. It is to be expected just like any other gun.
I have had custom revolvers here from the very best that would make a good jack handle too.
I don't trust every Ruger and if it does not do right, I sell it fast, same as any other gun.
No matter how much precision machinery is used, things can go wrong even if it is the next gun while the next again is perfect.
.0001" wear on a cutter can be too much so if it is kept in use for a hundred thousand more parts, it gets to a tolerance where it is changed.
Just how long does a gun maker use the same tools? How long does a mold maker using a cherry keep using it? I don't think a new cherry is used for each mold and they re-sharpen them.
A new tool is not used for each barrel or frame either.
The answer is tolerance! Not allowed in the space industry or critical parts but that expense comes from taxpayers. That is why cars cost so much today. Tooling changes added to cost. It is why airplanes cost so much because tolerance has a cost. Not so with a gun that a guy can never shoot good enough to know the difference. Yes, there are many that guaranty a group size, but cost is more then a hunter can afford.
What flipped my lid was a scope that cost $4000! :groner:

[subsonic]

MR received the gun Friday. It's on it's way back today! They replaced the barrel.

I asked what it would cost to number the chambers 1-5 where they can be read with the loading gate open, since they had it. The original answer was $35, but they are going to take care of it gratis since I had to send it twice! I didn't ask for it for free, they just took care of it on their own accord.

Every company can make errors, but if they are willing to take care of the customer, it's not that big of a deal to me. I never had to pay shipping and the turn around is about as fast as you could ever expect. I should have it back on Wednesday.

[tek4260]

Now there is nothing to do but burn some H110! :)

[W.R.Buchanan]

44 man: In answer to one of your statements: I have been in contact with RCBS concerning their mould specifications lately. It seems that someone decided that they would just use the shrink rate for linotype for ALL of their moulds.

This is obviously not right as nobody is going to use linotype in a pistol mould.

Well the GM got ahold of my scathing letter back to Customer Service and called and we talked about mould design and machining processes.

It seems that they only get about 40-45 moulds out of a single cherry. They are made out of solid Carbide.

They make all their tooling in house so it was not much of a trick to make a new Cherry for the .45-300FN mould .002 bigger so it will throw Boolits out of WW at .461-2 instead of .458-9.

As far as the .0001 of wear goes. yes it does affect tolerances howeer the newest machines automatically compensate for cutter wear.

Mind you, nothing lasts very long in Cro-moly steel. So those tools get changed as soon as a given dimension starts to drift.

On a machine with an automatic tool changer(every machining center made has an auto tool changer.) it is an easy set up to run a roughing tool that takes the majority of the material off the part and then a finishing tool to bring it to the required dimension. By doing this you get much longer service from your set up before you have to tweek it. You also get better finishes, When that matters.

The problem I see most with bottomline driven companies is an obsession with cycle times and how long it takes to finish a product. This must be balanced with quality.

There are varying degrees of quality and just because something is dimensionally perfect doesn't mean It can"t look like Ship.

This is where I see Marlin right now. Obsesed with bottom line to the point that they aren't looking at what is coming out of the pipe..

There is two ways to sell manufactured stuff. you can make it fast and cheap or you can make it better take a little longer and sell it for a little more. When you are talking about a plastic cup it doesn't matter and people are going to buy the cheap one because it fills the bill. ON guns it's a different story. Most people will gladly pay a little more for a nicer gun than less for a ***. Even though they may both shoot the same, the cosmetics matter to most people.

Incidentially Pine Tree Castings is one of, if not the, most sophisticated investment casting firms in the world! Gun parts for Ruger are just a fraction of what they do. I wonder if Ruger still owns them?

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

44 man: In answer to one of your statements: I have been in contact with RCBS concerning their mould specifications lately. It seems that someone decided that they would just use the shrink rate for linotype for ALL of their moulds.

This is obviously not right as nobody is going to use linotype in a pistol mould.

Well the GM got ahold of my scathing letter back to Customer Service and called and we talked about mould design and machining processes.

It seems that they only get about 40-45 moulds out of a single cherry. They are made out of solid Carbide.

They make all their tooling in house so it was not much of a trick to make a new Cherry for the .45-300FN mould .002 bigger so it will throw Boolits out of WW at .461-2 instead of .458-9.

As far as the .0001 of wear goes. yes it does affect tolerances howeer the newest machines automatically compensate for cutter wear.

Mind you, nothing lasts very long in Cro-moly steel. So those tools get changed as soon as a given dimension starts to drift.

On a machine with an automatic tool changer(every machining center made has an auto tool changer.) it is an easy set up to run a roughing tool that takes the majority of the material off the part and then a finishing tool to bring it to the required dimension. By doing this you get much longer service from your set up before you have to tweek it. You also get better finishes, When that matters.

The problem I see most with bottomline driven companies is an obsession with cycle times and how long it takes to finish a product. This must be balanced with quality.

There are varying degrees of quality and just because something is dimensionally perfect doesn't mean It can"t look like Ship.

This is where I see Marlin right now. Obsesed with bottom line to the point that they aren't looking at what is coming out of the pipe..

There is two ways to sell manufactured stuff. you can make it fast and cheap or you can make it better take a little longer and sell it for a little more. When you are talking about a plastic cup it doesn't matter and people are going to buy the cheap one because it fills the bill. ON guns it's a different story. Most people will gladly pay a little more for a nicer gun than less for a ***. Even though they may both shoot the same, the cosmetics matter to most people.

Incidentially Pine Tree Castings is one of, if not the, most sophisticated investment casting firms in the world! Gun parts for Ruger are just a fraction of what they do. I wonder if Ruger still owns them?

Randy

[44man]

Yes, I am pretty sure Ruger owns the company. It would be interesting to tour and see all they make. Must be hot as all get out though! :veryconfu

[Whitworth]

Yup, Ruger still owns Pine Tree.

[W.R.Buchanan]

We have investment foundry near me in Port Hueneme and during the summer it is unbearable in the place. The pour guys have to wear flame suits and the radiated heat coming off the crucibles gets to you even at 20 feet away.

On another note you would be surprised at all of the stuff you've actually seen elsewhere. This place makes the kick stands for Harleys that are shaped like dragons legs and eagle claws.

I got a bunch of parts made for the Navy there, and they did a damn good job. It would surprise most people just how much detail they can mould into a part. The place specializes in casting 17-4 Stainless. The Dragon legs had an enormous amount of scales and toenails cast right in.

Gun parts are actually pretty easy compared to some of the stuff they do.

Randy

[44man]

The lost wax process is amazing but the wax form has to be perfect.
Then I always wondered how they hold the casting for final machining.
I still remember the DW revolvers when they could not hold them right and barrel holes were crooked. The insides looked like sand castings, so rough some parts did not work.
I agree about the RCBS molds, I never bought one that cast the right diameter and actually my Lyman's lack proper diameters. I can't afford custom on SS so I make my own molds from scrap.
Then RCBS made dies for years with the wrong expanders, made for dead soft lead and I could not even get jacketed to shoot. No case tension. Then a gun writer had them tighten things for the .45 Colt but they never did it to the other calibers. I had BR collar dies made for the .44 for IHMSA. A respected BR die maker understood what was needed for consistent boolit pull and worked with me. I have found Hornady dies are almost as good.
Now you see CA dies but I refuse to buy any, just what boolits are they made for? I think they use larger expanders.
The "M" die is a waste if you want accuracy. Better suited to a BPCR and BP.
We are still faced with what a company considers good for all.
Some say dies made for jacketed are wrong for cast but that is not right. Make the boolit act like jacketed and you will see accuracy take a huge leap forward.
Using proper dies this is what you get. The cherries for my molds are hand made mostly, no CNC machine. Mold blocks are a challenge to mill. The BFR is right and the Ultra Dot is deadly.
These are sight adjustment groups at 50 yards, went a little too much left but you can see how good proper loading will do. It is a .475 Linebaugh, 420 gr boolit at 1350 fps. Plain old water dropped WW boolits. Yep, the one group is 1/4".

[44man]

No, I don't shoot 20 yards and count the best 3 out of 6. I don't use a ransom rest, I use a couple of sandbags or shoot from the side of my leg.
We have super machinists here that make me look like I am in the dark ages, mold makers supreme. I would love to buy a bunch.
I cut my cherries by look, never from a drawing expected to be a shooter. I never think of drive band width or GG position, I just want more then one GG. Cherries are UGLY! Hardened with a torch, drawn in the kitchen oven.
Yet my boolits shoot. My loads shoot. My guns shoot.
Many molds are lathe turned today but just how many are right and how many need sent back? Some are CNC cut but are still wrong.
Can you compare my hand made junk to a million dollar machine?
There is always a human there and the worst is the CEO that wants more, faster. More money as fast as it can me made.
The popularity of the Ultra Dot and the BFR's has seen them raise prices and make more, faster. I am worried about it. Can barrel makers keep up? Orders need filled fast. Quality is sure to go down.

[Whiterabbit]

hi subsonic,

how did you get it shipped on MR's dime? They told me I had to ship mine out so they could inspect i before they concluded warranty or paid problems.

I might have argued the point had I known what it was going to cost to ship. Fedex told me I could only ship priority overnight and charged me 1/5th of what I paid for the gun to begin with. (actually a little more.)

I'm not very happy about this, and all MR has to do is say nothing on a 7 month brand new gun is warranty work to just make my day. I don't know what I would do if they told me that. The amount I would have to pay to fix everything up combined with shipping would have bought me a freedom arms.

I'm assuming even if it's all warranty work I'm eating those shipping costs?

What did I do wrong here?

[subsonic]

What's wrong with yours?

They offered to send a call tag for mine. Maybe the three trips mine has taken on MR's dime has changed their policy?

[Whiterabbit]

Cylinder lockup is loose both front to back and side to side, the pawl sticks in the down position when the loading gate is opened, several screws loosened under recoil, one of which was not caught, fell out and was lost, and the extractor rod housing screw sheared, sending the assembly flying under recoil. The bottom of the screw is still in the barrel.

They said send it in, if they determine it's a warranty fix (for a 7 month old gun purchased brand new) they'll take care of it.

I hope so. The shipping cost was astronomical.

[Whiterabbit]

Stupid question for you about the pawl marks on the cylinder that develop over use. Are yours uniform between the cylinder hardstops? mine have a single indent, about 2/3rds of the way between the hard stops. It doesn't seem to affect performance, but you can feel it if you run your finger over it, and will catch fibrous cleaning cloths. Should I mention something to MR about this too?

[white eagle]

they aren't as golden as
one was lead to believe
but I suppose all makers have bad products

[44man]

Cylinder lockup is loose both front to back and side to side, the pawl sticks in the down position when the loading gate is opened, several screws loosened under recoil, one of which was not caught, fell out and was lost, and the extractor rod housing screw sheared, sending the assembly flying under recoil. The bottom of the screw is still in the barrel.

They said send it in, if they determine it's a warranty fix (for a 7 month old gun purchased brand new) they'll take care of it.

I hope so. The shipping cost was astronomical.
You NEED side to side cylinder play and the average measured at the locking notch will be about .060". Front to rear should be just enough to allow for heat expansion. No lube and shooting a dry gun can wear it.
When the gate is open, all parts will be free so the cylinder turns, the BFR has a hand that allows turning the cylinder both directions.
It is up to you to keeps screws tight. Loose ones will shear, that is your fault. There is not much that will hold screws short of epoxy under the recoil. You need to own screwdrivers and Allen wrenches and know how to use them. Do not blame a gun maker for loose screws.
This sounds like an owner malfunction.
All Ruger configurations, including the BFR's have the cylinder latch pop up before the locking notch is reached and will leave a line on the cylinders. Nature of the beast, forget it, there is no way to time the latch.
I see no problems at all with your gun except normal maintenance, lube and tight screws.
Only one screw is a problem with BFR's and that is the front grip frame screw. It is too short and I have been back and forth with MR about it. I have had to make my own, long enough to reach the top of the frame. The factory screw only grabs about 2 threads.

[subsonic]

Well, the EJRH coming off is common to all single actions that have heavy recoil. There are fixes, but they are all complicated. I tighten all of mine religiously and use Loctite Red. I go over the screws on most of my guns from time to time and have found loose screws the most on S&Ws, but on Rugers too from time to time. Loctite is your friend.

They have pawl problems and that's what initiated my first return. My pawl was too short. I think it's actually too long the last time I checked.

I'll check it again when it comes back, but I'm not sending it again unless there's something I can't fix or is obviously messed up.

[Whiterabbit]

The front grip frame screw was the one missed and lost.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear on the pawl. I understand it's a free-spin pawl. My point was that it sticks down when the loading gate is closed. So I close the gate, and the cylinder continues to spin.

The cylinder mark I understand too, nature of the beast. What I was trying to say is that every cylinder mark I've seen is a smooth line, mine has a pock mark in the same spot all around the cylinder. This didn't seem normal compared to used single action pistols I see in shops.

I do appreciate the correction for the cylinder play. My understanding was a little side to side was OK, but have read that play front to back was not. Though room for thermal expension makes perfect sense. If this all works out well from MR I'll definitely check the play when hot. I DO remember front to back play when hot though.

The extractor screw was tightened every few rounds. Do they really loosen up that fast? That makes me more nervous than anything else with regards to shear. Having customers (me in this case) touch anything increases risk of failure IMO more than anything else.

But honestly, a pawl that sticks down no matter what? Is that really operator error?

[Whiterabbit]

What would be a complicated fix example for the ejector rod housing? I prefer shooting single action pistols and would rather give up pistol shooting altogether than own any other type. Anything to prevent loosening every cylinder would be a reasonable solution compared to tightening a screw every 5 rounds.

[subsonic]

http://www.reedercustomguns.net/forum/index.php?id=6859

Or you can install a barrel band (machine a band into the barrel) that supports the end of the housing. See the Bowen Nimrod conversion.

On octagon barrels they sometimes machine a step.

I just remembered that I have also seen an oversize allen-head screw used too. Basically anything is better than what Ruger puts on them. I think the MR screw is more "hefty" to start with.

[subsonic]

Rabbit, what caliber is yours? A big boomer?

[Whiterabbit]

460 s&w.

A quick google search revealed I was not the only person to bring a screwdriver to the range to tighten known screws that loosened, and to check frequently. Is this pretty common for the big bore revolvers?

[subsonic]

Yes. My .45 Colt Ruger Bisley needs it all the time. I can usually tell by looking where the EJRH goes into the frame. IF there's a slight gap - time to tighten.

[Whiterabbit]

I'd wiggle the housing, if it moved, time to tighten. At the last range trip, I found that even if the housing was tight I could move the screw 1/8th of a turn or a smidge less. And it didn't take many rounds to get there.

Do you think MR has an option I can pay for? Or do you think this is custom shop or revolversmith only kind of thing?

[subsonic]

My best advice is to call them and ask. They may have already incorporated some sort of fix as a running change and you may already be getting it?

Have you tried loctite red?

[Frank]

My BFR has glue between the ejector rod housing and the barrel. If the screw does back out, the housing stays on. Put some red loctite on the screw and glue the housing. What's the big deal?

[Whiterabbit]

I tried a special locktite for (stainless steel) automation screws designed for vibration resistance for industrial applications without being a permanent fix. A search on google will reveal just as many who swear by high strength locktite as forbid its use with no clear indication over who is a trustworthy source (or not).

If they changed something for the screw, they implemented it within the past 6 months. I ordered this in March.

[subsonic]

My BFR has glue between the ejector rod housing and the barrel. If the screw does back out, the housing stays on. Put some red loctite on the screw and glue the housing. What's the big deal?

Elmers? :bigsmyl2:

[tek4260]

Mine (475) was glued from the factory as well. It is simple enough to make your own pin.

Take an extra erh(Ruger one will work) and drill thru it with a 1/8 or #2 drill bit about 1/2" behind the factory screw hole. Mount it on the barrel and use it as a guide to drill into the barrel. Then line it up with your erh using the screw hole as a guide(a drill bit that is the same od as the hole for the factory screw for a guide) and drill thru the barrel side of the erh. Now you have perfectly aligned holes for the pin. Take the same drill bit you used to drill and cut a short piece off the back of it. Epoxy it in the barrel and remount your erh.

Ta da :)

[Whiterabbit]

yes, my housing was glued on as well. There was approximately 1" of glue near the cylinder, residue on the barrel. It had the consistency of rubber cement. And wiped right off with solvent.

[subsonic]

A person could probably buy a barrel-band sling swivel and put it in front of the EJRH to help support it, but I also have thrown those over my head with my Contender, so YMMV, take it FWIW, and wear protection.

[subsonic]

Mine (475) was glued from the factory as well. It is simple enough to make your own pin.

Take an extra erh(Ruger one will work) and drill thru it with a 1/8 or #2 drill bit about 1/2" behind the factory screw hole. Mount it on the barrel and use it as a guide to drill into the barrel. Then line it up with your erh using the screw hole as a guide(a drill bit that is the same od as the hole for the factory screw for a guide) and drill thru the barrel side of the erh. Now you have perfectly aligned holes for the pin. Take the same drill bit you used to drill and cut a short piece off the back of it. Epoxy it in the barrel and remount your erh.

Ta da :)

Says the guy that's not afraid to drill into the side of his barrel and probably has a pile of EJRHs....:-P

[tek4260]

Says the guy that's not afraid to drill into the side of his barrel and probably has a pile of EJRHs....:-P


May have a few left. Had a bunch of pieces of barrels too, but they were sent to Cali to be made into pencil holders.

Drilling is mild compared to the hacksaw and file..... or the hammer.

Draw filing the warning label off will make you sick when you are about half way there and keep thinking "did it really look that bad on there" "should I have left it alone" :)

Besides, its only money. Can't be worth much considering they give it to all the democrats on the 1st of the month.

[44man]

Recoil will loosen screws, no doubt. Even red Loc-Tite will not cure it.
It is a constant PITA.
Whiterabbit, it is not the pawl but the cylinder latch sticking down. put some oil in the hole at the trigger pin. The latch, gate work from the same spring, the latch is on the trigger pin.

[Whiterabbit]

As an update to my juvenile griping here, I called Magnum Research to get an update, see if they had gotten around to checking my gun or not yet. Figured they were busy, we all get that way sometimes.

Called, and it turns out they opened the box the same day they got it, completed the repair, sent it back, and it is to arrive to me today, tracking number and all. I called to see if they had opened the box yet and had a quote for me to authorize the repair work, and learned I'm getting my gun back instead.

This caliber of service is similar to what I've experienced with RCBS (called to get a part number and quote for a collet to repair my equipment, they just shipped me the part free). I have never been in contact with an industry that was able to support their customers to this level, and it shocks me continuously that service like this is sustainable. I am beyond impressed to say the absolute least.

I had resigned myself after 44man's analysis to an expensive repair bill, maybe even paying for the return shipment (as per other industry practices). Instead I find that the firearm I shipped 6PM Monday is fixed, out the door, and scheduled to be at mine on Friday. They repaired it, tested it, and shipped it in one day.

I'm blown away. Magnum Research's response has trivialized any gouging FedEx did when billing me for shipping. MR didn't surpass my expectations, I had no concept they had the resources to provide such level of service.

[subsonic]

They ARE fast and do seem to try to take care of things.

[Frank]

Whiterabbit:
I'm blown away. Magnum Research's response has trivialized any gouging FedEx did when billing me for shipping. MR didn't surpass my expectations, I had no concept they had the resources to provide such level of service.
Corporate America can be good, but it seems to reward the whiners and complainers. Is that a system that you want? It's the best we have for now. Did you ever get reimbursed for the shipping?

[Whiterabbit]

I was worried about that, especially after what 44man suggested. I didn't whine, I didn't complain, I tried to be polite and clear when describing the issue (and nothing else, like how I FEEL about a technical issue) so I expected like the rest of corporate America to be stuck with the bill. Instead, MR took care of me. I told the guy on the phone I was speechless, didn't know what to say. he said "tell your friends."

I did not get reimbursed for shipping. If the gun shoots well now and the glueline (which now extends along the entire length of the ERH helps keep things from loosening, and I find I can inspect less frequently (less than every cylinder) for loose screws, I won't rock the boat.

[subsonic]

I would like to know what glue they use!

[Whiterabbit]

for metal? I dunno, after what you suggested about pinning the housing, a hardware solution seems much more impact resistant than the chemical one.

The only true metal glue I'm aware of is brazing!

[Frank]

Whiterabbit:

I did not get reimbursed for shipping.


I told the guy on the phone I was speechless, didn't know what to say. he said "tell your friends."

It was good of you to tell us that. A thousand people will act accordingly. :brokenima

[W.R.Buchanan]

Blue Loctite is essentially Elmers glue. that's why you can get it out.

Red Loctite is pretty serious stuff, and usually will hold any screw, however the reason it is loosening on your ERH screw is because of the heat generated at the end of the barrel,,, maybe combined with the vibration, but the heat is the main problem.

Heating is how you get Red Loctite to release. Ohterwise it is pretty strong stuff.

Some guys use clear nail polish for thread locker. It works well and it is brittle so when you turn the screw it breaks loose. It might just be what you're looking for and I just bet your wife has some.

Randy

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont like locktighting an ejector housing on. I remove them to clean them occasionaly and want them easy to remove. Yes they come loose. I dont care if its a ruger or a 3000 dollar custom recoil will loosen them eventually. Its just to easy to keep a screwdriver handy and after every 20 or so rounds tighten them and tighten them before you go hunting. Just about every screw on a single action and alot of them on das will loosen and its just part of shooting. I sure dont consider a gun faulty because an ejector housing goes flying. I consider it laziness on my part.

[Frank]

OK, I made an adjustment. Here is the .475 bore after 30 rounds. All I did was run a wet patch and a dry patch. There wasn't a sliver of lead in the bore. Not a speck! :coffee:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=4387

[saz]

Frank,
What was your adjustment?

That is a purty bore BTW!

[Whiterabbit]

Looks just like my rifle bore after cleaning cast with 2 patches. If I could get my BFR bore to look like that after 2 patches I would be a HAPPY CAMPER indeed. I think that photo inspires me to move that little project right to the front burner.

fantastic.

[Frank]

saz:

Frank,
What was your adjustment?

That is a purty bore BTW!

That's sunlight shining into the bore. Which bullet and lube wins under the light of day?

LBT bullet (mine), LBT Blue.

[MGySgt]

Dumb Question - can't you pin the ERH screw?

with the screw all the way in - drill a hole through your ERH that is inline with the screw head - use a roll pin to hold it in place.

Now I know that will cause an extra field tool if you need to take the ERH off in the field - But....

I don't have that problem with my BFR (475) YET, but I do with my Ruger SBH in 44 mag that is going to have that done just as soon as I get a chance.

[Whiterabbit]

I thought about the same thing too. I'd imagine that's not an easy machine task to perform, and I was spooked that if it loosens somehow or loses alignment over time, then the only way the roll pin would fit is if the housing screw was loose.

[44man]

I just checked all of my revolvers and not a single screw was loose.
I was lax long ago and sheared 3 grip frame screws on my Ruger.
I might be more lax now and hardly ever clean my guns but just the hammer tap with torque has kept things tight. Even my scope bases are rock solid.
I would rather do that then to drill for pins.

[Frank]

Some people like to shoot their guns. Others like to spend more time tinkering. That is fine. I checked my ejector housing screw and it is tight. I just put 50 rounds through it. But as Buchanan pointed out, a heated barrel may loosen it. Reinstall with the red loctite and shoot slower. Mine never loosens ever with red loctite.

[Whiterabbit]

hammer tap with torque?

[44man]

hammer tap with torque?
Yes, use a perfect screwdriver for the screw. You might need help holding the gun or a padded vise. Push down on the screwdriver and turn hard. Then tap the handle with a small hammer. Just that little amount will set the screw. No Paul Bunyan stuff, don't break anything.
Use a SMALL hammer. Leave your claw hammer clear out of sight.
A wood stick is enough.
The little jar will keep the screw tight.

[subsonic]

FWIW, it works to break screws loose too. I have an impact driver that looks like a cross between a screwdriver and a mason chisel and takes replaceable bits.

[MGySgt]

I have a similar impact screw driver and you can reverse it to tighten screws - Use light blows when tightening - don't ask how I know. :(

[subsonic]

Ok. It's back.

I couldn't wait to open it up and see what I got. Before I got it all of the way out of the box, I noticed the front sight was missing! DOH! Then I looked at the grips - still look like a tractor tire (image below). At least the bore looks good, despite a bit of thread choke :roll:

They are sending me a front sight with screw and grips.

How could you let the thing out the door without at least 3 people signing off on it at this point? How could you miss a front sight???!!!

Hopefully this is the end of this story. :evil::confused:

I've got it soaking in copper cleaner and hope to shoot it soon with 44man's boolits and load.

[Whiterabbit]

I hope it works out for you. I have a .454 sizer arriving today I hope will end my leading as well.

How's your trigger, if I may ask? clean break?

[subsonic]

I paid for a trigger job ($85) on the second trip. So it's pretty good. Originally it felt like a Ruger (surprise).

[subsonic]

Anybody know how to lift a voodoo spell? I think I need it!

[Whitworth]

Anybody know how to lift a voodoo spell? I think I need it!

Now it's time to just go out and shoot it.

[subsonic]

Not having a front sight isn't going to stop me.

[Whitworth]

Haha! Exactly!

[44man]

Not having a front sight isn't going to stop me.
I usually take the front sight off anyway.

[IridiumRed]

About screws coming loose - I build some high performance motorcycle engines (as a hobby), and use them on the roadrace track.

These are 4 cylinder engines, around 1000 to 1150 cc's depending on setup, making up to about 200 rear wheel horsepower, revving out to 12,200 to 14,000 RPM, again depending on setup.

And, these things are getting run hard for at least 20 minutes at a time.... for up to a few thousand miles on the track.

Anyways, there are items in the engines, that screw in that I really DONT want coming loose. Some get a little heat / stress / vibration, some A LOT.

I drill and safety wire as much as I can, but there are lots of things I use loc tite for, and I dont have problems with it coming loose. And, when you could have $6,000 in an engine, $15k in the total bike, and a loose bolt could mean an engine failure which could easily end in a nasty, bike & body breaking exercise..... well it really makes you think about ensuring those bolts DONT move!

Typically when I have something I wanted mounted "semi permanently" (IE, i dont want it to move a bit for a few thousand miles, but I do want to take it off at the next tear down...) what I do is,

Clean everything with acetone. I clean the fastener AND the bolt hole. If in doubt I clean them twice (and most of these parts were already cleaned once). Make sure to get all the oil / grime off the surface. Loc Tite doesn't work well on a dirty surface!

Put the loctite on the part, assemble, torque down.

Use an impact driver to really "set" the fastener, if its a screw head (straight or phillips). Now, you really DO need to exercise constraint here, but that impact driver really adds to the torque put on the fastener....



Sorry for the long post, was just trying to give some perspective. Most firearms, I just tighten everything on them to a reasonable level. If something starts getting loose, or if it just looks like it will be a problem, then I start "working" on it, like mentioned above.

After that, I just dont have to worry about anything coming loose.... :)