Loading .312 pistol bullets in Mosin

[nhopper]

I am interested to hear from anyone who has loaded 32 caliber pistol bullets for the Mosin. Hornady makes a 60, 85 and 100 grain .312 diameter projectile which would be perfect. It seems like a very cost effective round because these are much cheaper than the actual rifle bullets.

What I'm curious about is powder, performance, and most of all, the OAL you used and how it fed.

[Buckshot]

...............I've never done it, and if I was interested in it, the price for a box of bullets would be worth the try. Problems I would anticipate would be the short bullet's run through the throat and leade to the rifling. I'll bet dollars to donuts that best results will be found using the pistol-shotgun type powders. I'd start with loads like 5.0 grs of 231, 7.0 grs of Red Dot, and maybe the same for Unique. I've shot paper patched 200gr cast lead pistol boolits in a 45-70 and used 8.0grs of Red Dot with excellent results.

..............Buckshot

[bruce drake]

I've done it for Mosins as well T99 Arisakas (7.7mm) and Enfield Rifles. The 100gr Hornady Hollowpoints work just fine in all three. I used 9-11gr of Red Dot for my loads and they worked just fine. The 60 & 85gr bullets were a pain to seat properrly because they made the OAL so short that the seating dies had to be cranked all the way down.

The 100gr are acccurate enough for 100 yards and you can make a decent pest control round with it as well.

Bruce

[legend]

hornady swaged swc has worked for me with 4 gr bullseye and 5.5 trailboss.
good pest/25yard loads.

[nhopper]

Good stuff. How about loading a rifle powder with this pistol bullet to make something about 3000+ fps? Is that prudent, or realistic?

[JIMinPHX]

I've tried a few pistol boolits in a .30-30 with mixed results. I tried a Lyman 311008. That one gave me poor accuracy. I think that the combination of a short boolit & a long throat was part of the problem. I think that I had some gas cutting before the boolit reached the lands.

Years ago, I used to load a Hornady 90-grain XTP pistol bullet in a .30-30 @ around 2500fps to get around some ground hog hunting restrictions in NJ. Those actually worked fairly well. the thing that you have to watch there is that if you push a bullet that was designed to expand at pistol velocities too fast, you can get some unwanted results. I spent some time on the phone with the people at Hornady before I worked up those loads. The people there were quite helpful.

Commercial plinkers were a bit of a craps shoot. Beautiful looking plinkers from Speer shot poorly, but ugly, beaten up looking, inconsistent plinkers from Hornady shot well.

[nhopper]

I've tried a few pistol boolits in a .30-30 with mixed results. I tried a Lyman 311008. That one gave me poor accuracy. I think that the combination of a short boolit & a long throat was part of the problem. I think that I had some gas cutting before the boolit reached the lands.

Years ago, I used to load a Hornady 90-grain XTP pistol bullet in a .30-30 @ around 2500fps to get around some ground hog hunting restrictions in NJ. Those actually worked fairly well. the thing that you have to watch there is that if you push a bullet that was designed to expand at pistol velocities too fast, you can get some unwanted results. I spent some time on the phone with the people at Hornady before I worked up those loads. The people there were quite helpful.

Commercial plinkers were a bit of a craps shoot. Beautiful looking plinkers from Speer shot poorly, but ugly, beaten up looking, inconsistent plinkers from Hornady shot well.

What kind of ill effects result from high velocity in pistol bullets?

[JeffinNZ]

I used to transplant 100gr XTP's into 7.62X39 ammo and at 2500fps they were brutal on wallabies.

[JIMinPHX]

What kind of ill effects result from high velocity in pistol bullets?

They can fragment upon leaving the muzzle or the core can separate from the jacket in the barrel & leave a barrel blockage if you push them too hard.

I've had a similar issue with Hornady SPSX varmint bullets that were being pushed to maximum velocity out of a fast twist rifle barrel. The thin jacketed varmint bullets are designed to just barley hold together at their intended velocities so that when they hit a small critter, that small amount of resistance is enough to make them open up. If you run that same bullet at the same velocity through a faster twist barrel, then the centrifugal forces can vaporize it at the muzzle. Ammo that shot fine in a 1:12 twist rifle didn't even put a hole in the paper when shot from a 1:9 twist. All I got was a gray cloud in front of the muzzle. That was an eye opening experience. Muzzle velocity on that one was way up there. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was probably well over 3k fps.

Edit:
2500fps is over the book published maximum velocity for the 90-grain Hornady XTP. I only worked up to that velocity after talking to the people at Hornady about the specific powder that was being used & the twist of the particular barrel that it was going to be fired from. Under different conditions, serious safety concerns may be present. The book max velocity is 2200fps.

[JIMinPHX]

I used to transplant 100gr XTP's into 7.62X39 ammo and at 2500fps they were brutal on wallabies.

Their performance on ground hogs could also be described as brutal. They removed a large part of the critter's mid section. "effective" would be an understatement.

[Multigunner]

You would probably get better results using round balls made for the .31 pocket size Cap & Ball revolvers.
A round ball would not be affected by canting, since a sherical object can't be canted.

I don't think you could push a soft lead round ball to much in the way of velocity without stripping into the grooves.

Theres a site called Gunwritters based in Finnland, their site has a lot of information on the Mosin Nagant, both military and sporting use, including various small game loads and practice cartridges in 7.62.

[Lonegun1894]

I have not used these in a Mosin, but did play around with some 90 gr Hornady XTPs in a 26" Remington 700 VS .308. I did not consult the manufacturers on any of this, but instead wanted to see what I could accomplish by myself just relying on my logic to develop a load from scratch. Using the knowledge that you can safely use a set powder load and replace it with lighter bullet as this will decrease pressures, I used a lighter load than my standard of 4064 that I had been using to fire 175 gr bullets, and loaded the cases with the 90gr XTP instead. This load gave me slightly over 2k fps, and no pressure signs, so I slowly started working my way up, using a 100 yd target for accuracy testing at the same time. Please forgive me, but I would rather not list the loads I used at the time in a public forum, in part because I dont want lectures, and in part because I dont want anyone directly copying loads and getting hurt. A few years later, I spoke with the manufacturers of both the powders and the bullets and was informed that per their information, I should have gotten hurt in this process. OK, back to the fun stuff. I used these loads also on jackrabbits and coyote, and started noticing that as velocities increased, performance decreased at a certain point with shallower wound cavities, and stopped using these for testing as I did not want to have wounded crippled animals suffering, but my paper testing continued as I was very curious by this point. One day, I got a gray puff and a shotgun pattern on my target, so increased my powder charge and got the same puff of smoke a bit closer to me, and a much looser pattern, and figured out that the bullets were being torn apart due to the centrifugal force. Well, being young and dumb, I continued experimenting until I was failing to hit paper at 25yds, but was hitting at 15yds. A friend wanted to check these loads over a chronograph, and we came up with slightly over 4k with these bullets at 10 ft in front of the muzzle. I still was not getting any pressure signs, but the load was completely useless as it wouldnt even stay together long enough to hit paper at 25 yds. Since then, I have been playing more and more but going in the opposite direction, seeing how slow I can drive heavy bullets and maintain accuracy.

If anything, I would play with your Mosin to see what it can do with these light bullets. My accuracy was good, but the bullet integrity just wasn't there for anything useful. Also, I was occasionally having a little trouble making these feed due to the short OAL and stubby profile. After these experiments, I would say these bullets have two possibilities, both of which have already been mentioned. The first is as a high velocity varmint bullet, and the second is as a low velocity paper/small game load. I see it as a specialty bullet for one of those two purposes, but it will not do a good job as a general purpose bullet. Also, if you're interested, I have had some good luck using the Lee 90 gr .314 SWC for the low velocity loads I used to use the XTP for. Same weight, good performance on small game when loaded at below 1K fps out of several .30/.31 caliber rifles (.30-30, .308, .30-06, .303 Brit.) Either way, have fun with them and best of luck.

[nhopper]

Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a shot. I understand the reluctance to post any load data since this is really getting outside of the norm. Load data using the 7.62x39 125 gr rounds is not difficult to find, but any lighter and it's just bordering on silly.

What I'd love to duplicate is something akin to those 46 grain "training rounds" that show up on the surplus market from time to time. They use a hollow core steel projectile that supposedly chronos at 3200+ fps. Accurate to about 100 meters so the story goes.

I knew it wasn't impossible, just uncommon. When I first acquired a Mosin, it was no big deal to shoot the surplus stuff. But after you run a few cans of the punishing and rather inconsistent stuff through the gun, not to mention the hassle of cleaning corrosive residue out, you start to weight the cost/benefit of surplus ammo. It begins to look like its not quite the bargain I'd once thought.

[Multigunner]

I no longer use Mil Surp ammo if I can hand load for the caliber.
Theres still plenty of decent milsurp ammo out there, but theres also some rather dangerous stuff out there as well.
After a town was all but destroyed by detonation of a Cold War era Soviet ammunition dump the formulas for powders used in those days were found to not last as long in storage as they had believed they would. These days powders using ethyl centraliteto absorb products of decomposition are not to be trusted to remain effective beyond 25 years of average storage conditions.
NATO has instituted more stringent quality inspections with shorter time periods between lot testing.

The Mannlicher carcano rifle got an undeserved bad reputation in the 60's and 70's solely due to degraded 6.5 ammunition imported from WW2 era storage sites in North Africa.

For a light weight cast boollit that still has enough bearing surface for decent accuracy and the strength to withstand high rotational forces you should consider Kirksite zinc alloy.
This alloy weighs in at 60% of the same volume of lead.
A Kirksite boollit thrown from the same mold used for a 200 grain Boollit would only weigh 120 grains yet have the same bearing surface, from a 150 gr mold the Kirksite boolit would weigh in around 72 grains. No lubricant is required.

[daschnoz]

I have loaded some strange stuff.

110gr M1 carbine bullets over 10gr of Unique in 308WIN will net you about 1600fps. I have also loaded these over 39.5gr of Reloader 7. These run about 3000fps at the muzzle and are very accurate. From my rifle, zeroed for 100yds, they are +/- 1" between 25yds and 150yds. After about 170yds, they drop off quickly.

I resized 32ACP 60gr Speer GDHP bullets to 0.309 and loaded them in 308WIN over the same 10gr of Unique. I never chrono'd them (battery was dead), but they were definitely super sonic. I don't remember how accurate they were.

The pecker about loading the 60gr pills is that they are so short, it is difficult to hold them in place (with your fingers) while the press is on its way up.

[Me not you]

I use the 100gr Hornady XTPs in several rifles. I use either UNIQUE or STEEL (in larger amounts) generally in the 12gr range for Unique, and 16gr with STEEL. It shoots pretty well and is good for fireforming lubricated cases (for no stretching) with little stress on the action.

[new2cast]

This has been a good read! I might be purchasing a Mosin that has a .312 diameter groove.

If one of y'all can convince me that I can hold the 10 ring at 100 yards with .312 pistol bullets I'll probably buy the rifle :)

[new2cast]

For powder I'm considering 2400 because it is regarded as not being "position sensitive."

Anybody use this combo? Or want to try it? :)

[KCSO]

Waters Pet loads has a whole section on this in everything from 30-30 to 303 British. The 303 loads work fine in a M/N rifle and you can load from 750 fps to 1800 fps. I use everything from Bullseye to Unique and Red Dot and the accuracy is from good to excellent. The only probllem is that it is way cheaper to use cast bullets.

[new2cast]

Well I don't cast my own bullets so sometimes it doesn't turn out to be cheaper for me

[Larry Gibson]

The .308 90 gr XTPs are awesome in the .30 Carbine with h110 at 2000 fps and the 100 gr .312 XTP is also awsome in the SKS with H4227 at 2400 fps. Haven't tried then in the MN but the .312 100 gr XTP over unique at 2000 fps is awesome in my 7.65 Argentine. By "awesome" I mean they turn rabbits into 'bits; a 'bit of 'em goes here, a 'bit of 'em goes there:awesome:

Larry Gibson

[craig61a]

I have also loaded the 100 gr. .312 XTP for one of my SKS's which has a .312 groove. I use H4895 and get groups just over an inch at 100 yds. As for shooting these in the Mosin, I haven't, but I do use the 174 gr. RN in rifles w/.312 groove and have good accuracy.