#4 mk1 marking questions,

[adrians]

hello ,,can someone please enlighten me on these markings on my #4 mk1 maltby?
and also the front sight base is marked -15 ,,what signifigance does this have on sighting in so to speak?
did the enfields have differant blade designations for diff range lenghts? i'm a little confused.:twisted::coffee::evil:

[m.chalmers]

Np 303 2.22 is a proof test needed to sell the rifle on the civilian market (England). IE: sold out of service. Front sight, makers mark and hight.

Go here and read around:
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?55-The-Lee-Enfield-Forum

[303Guy]

And of course 303 being caliber and 2.22 the case length. On the blade number, the individual rifles were zero'd for elevation by fitting the appropriate hight blade. I think a two position peep would be zero'd for 200yds and 400 yds? I wouldn't be too keen to have proof stampings on the muzzle end of a rifle but I suppose it would not hurt it in any way.

[adrians]

yer i thought it was a strange place to be hammering digits and letters on... but like you say it probably doesn't hurt any.
i did a cerrasafe cast of the muzzle (about 4" long ) and it mic's the same the whole length of the cast so it didn't damage the bore any.
have a good-un . :evil::coffee::evil:

[303Guy]

So, the bore has no funneling at the muzzle end? Excellent! And being a No.4 there will be no reason for it not to shoot straight. Next step?

Getting back to the OQ, the proofing marks make sense; 'NP' for nitro-proof and the cartridge size, nd right there where everyone can see it.

[bubba.50]

on the one i used to have with the 2 position peep it was marked 300 and 600-meters i'm guessin'. for what it's worth, bubba.

[303Guy]

Now I think to look in my box of bits!:roll: The two position peep is indeed 300 and 600 yds. Thanks for the correction.

[adrians]

next step 303 is to get some dies get some brass cast a few up and play ,and play , and play .
i'm in on the g/b for the 316299 so we'll see what developes from there.
i just love it when i get a new toy and i have to figure out what it likes and what it does'nt like .
happy,happy,joy, joy,,

on a side note ,when buying brass given the "case separation" issue which some folks comment on in various articles because of generous chamber dimensions (given wartime conditions with mud and dirt ,ect ,ect) what is the best brass for your buck?
i understand it is advisable to neck size only to prolong case life.
am i going down the wrong road with this info or does it have merit?
everybody have a wonderfull weekend and be safe.
adrian. :evil::CastBoolitsisbest::twisted:

[Dead Dog Jack]

on a side note ,when buying brass given the "case separation" issue which some folks comment on in various articles because of generous chamber dimensions (given wartime conditions with mud and dirt ,ect ,ect) what is the best brass for your buck?
i understand it is advisable to neck size only to prolong case life.
am i going down the wrong road with this info or does it have merit?
everybody have a wonderfull weekend and be safe.

There is merit to the theory about limited case life due to full length sizing. Neck sizing does make a difference. I've had pretty good luck with Win and R-P brass. Keep in mind that I am neck sizing, though. Federal brass didn't seem to last very long for me.


Also, on another note, regarding the what appears to be "NS" stamp, that is actually part of a larger stamping of the proof test pressure. It should read "18.5 TONS."

[dualsport]

The Lee Collett Die works good for my .303s. Easier to do, no lube needed, and easier on the brass. You can develop a 'feel' for it and just barely size the neck.

[adrians]

:awesome:
thanks dead dog ,if i look real close i can see some more digits prior to the 'NS", so 18.5 tons eh! is that a good sign or a bad sign?, or of no real significance at all?
duelsport ,would the lyman "m" die be better ,( i use them on my 8mm's and 30-30 and .308's ) would the 30cal "m" work on 303,,prolly not huh?.
:twisted:[smilie=s::evil:

[Multigunner]

There are front sight blades of varying heights, the height stamped as you see it.
Springfield sporters has advertised sets of front sight blades , one each of the available heights, for use in obtaining the proper elevation to match the sight graduations.

The cartridge case length measurement is a holdover from Black Powder straight case rifle cartridges. It would come in handy if one was not familar with the .303 British cartridge and didn't know the difference between .303 British and .303 Savage.
It might also have prevented confusion with some German rimmed sporting cartridges of similar appearance.

18.5 Long Tons is the average bolt back thrust of the .303 MkVII cartridge. Rifles proofed for earlier marks of .303 would bear a 16 or 16.5 Long Ton marking.
A Long Ton is 2240 pounds.
The proof test charge was actually of much higher pressure to mimic the worst case scenario of defective cartridge or bore obstructed by fouling or rust.
The .303 MkVII cartridge was rated at 45,400 CUP by the more common pressure guns used by U S Ordnance. This translated to the SAAMI recommended maximum working pressure of 45,000 CUP, SAAMI generally rounds off to the nearest thousand pounds.

[adrians]

morning,,,, sooooo if keep my loads at say 43,000 max i would be within the "safe zone"?
i won't push it that high anyway but it sure is nice to know what it's max is///was.
one more question relating to muzzle movement!.
when i hold the muzzle it will move up-----down////side---to---side about 1/8 ",
is this normal? or is there supposed to be some kind of "spacer-shim in the barrel channel (like the 'ring on the #1 mk111 barrel)?:twisted::confused::twisted:

[dualsport]

IIRC Jeff in NZ wrote an article about accurizing the SMLE. It's probably here somewhere. Find that and he'll walk you thru it. The Lee Collett dies are great. I still use 'm' dies for some things, they work, but the collett die is easier. In "The Fouling Shot" CBA magazine #94, 1991, there's an article about the Lee collett die by Rich Weber. He does a slight modification to his that leaves the case mouth unsized but sizes the neck right below that. " One step CB case prep" it's called. You can get the TFS on cd from the CBA, all the way back to the beginning.

[Dead Dog Jack]

one more question relating to muzzle movement!.
when i hold the muzzle it will move up-----down////side---to---side about 1/8 ",
is this normal?


Yep, normal.

[303Guy]

On case life - I do things a little differently (many folks do the same thing inadvertently, I suspect). I deliberately lube my loaded cases! Not dripping with oil. I roll them on the case lube pad which carries STP Smoke Stopper). The cases should only just feel lubed. For fresh cases, I make sure they enough lube to not grip the chamber much. The theory is that the cases will still grip the chamber walls but will allow the rear section od the case to settle back onto the bolt face at a lower pressure while the front section is securely held firm. This allows the case to progressively elongate elastically (with some plastic elongation with a new case) thus preventing incipient case head separation which would otherwise begin on the first firing. My cases neither elongate and require trimming nor do I get any case-head separations. My cases actually last forever.

Then there is the trick of first firing using an 'O'-ring placed in front of the rim to hold it back and central for the initial fire-forming.

[Multigunner]

morning,,,, sooooo if keep my loads at say 43,000 max i would be within the "safe zone"?
i won't push it that high anyway but it sure is nice to know what it's max is///was.
one more question relating to muzzle movement!.
when i hold the muzzle it will move up-----down////side---to---side about 1/8 ",
is this normal? or is there supposed to be some kind of "spacer-shim in the barrel channel (like the 'ring on the #1 mk111 barrel)?:twisted::confused::twisted:

The original mil spec bedding of the No.4 rifle left much to be desired. They had put downwards pressure near the muzzle end of the fore end to reduce the difference in point of impact when firing with the bayonet mounted.

When the barrel was completely free floated it was more accurate. They also tried a metal staple driven into the barrel channel about midway between knox form and middle band to provide a few pounds of upwards pressure there. This improved accuracy but vibration on firing soon drove the staple deeper into the wood lessening the pressure.

They didn't come up with the best and most durable bedding method till around 1956.

Theres a scanned article at this link
http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=870
that explains this method as used with the No.4 (T) and has drawings that give a clear picture

[303Guy]

18.5 Long Tons is the average bolt back thrust of the .303 MkVII cartridge.That would be Tons per square inch. One of my barrels is actually stamped that but usually the stamp is just 'Tons' ?

In looking at that gun I see the proof mark; BNP 303" 2.22" with 18.5 Tons per ㅁ" underneath and a crown over the N. That's a Long Branch No.4 Mk 1* two-groove.

[Multigunner]

That would be Tons per square inch. One of my barrels is actually stamped that but usually the stamp is just 'Tons' ?

In looking at that gun I see the proof mark; BNP 303" 2.22" with 18.5 Tons per ㅁ" underneath and a crown over the N. That's a Long Branch No.4 Mk 1* two-groove.

Theres no direct correlation between Long Tons per square inch as measured by the base crusher gun used by the British and the Pounds per Square Inch as measured by the side cylinder crusher guns used by the US and several other nations.
The side cylinder guns were used in the British sporting arms guntrade as well as the base crusher, but the military seems to have only used the base crusher gun.
Both use copper discs or pellets and PSI is calculated by Tarage tables.

The British would state U S Ton (2,000 lb) measurements as "Short Tons", its a matter of point of view, each simply calling their own standard a "Ton".

The back thrust is the pressure minus the amount of pressure absorbed in expansion and stretching of the cartridge case as it grips the chamber wall.
The full chamber pressure would be exerted on the bolt face if the cartridge case were lubed as the oiled proof test cartridge is. One proof test cartridge is fired dry, and one fired oiled.
Due to an unacceptable percentage of action body failures during proof testing India went to a single dry proof load in the 1950's.
Proof testing in the UK has gone through some changes, they now use the European CIP or NATO EPVAT proof testing procedures.