hard enough

[redriverhunter]

hello i am loading for the 30.30 with the ranch dog boolit with a gas check. the lead i am using is lyman #2 the charge is 31.7 gn of 748. i was reading about if the cup is say 30,000/(1422X.90) would result in the need for a bhn of 23.44. is my lead to too soft thanks

[white eagle]

its not so much the bhn of the alloy
but the fit of the boolit to the gun
work on that and no worries about the hardness

[avogunner]

Wholeheartily concur with white eagle about bullet fit being more important. For my Rock Island 1903 (.30-06), I load the Lee 170gr FP (GC) over 31 gr of either 3031 or 748. My alloy is straight wheel weights and I've never had a hint of leading. I size to .309 and my groups (when I do my part) are less than 2" at 100yds. Yeah, sure I could tighten that group up with more load development but it's a fun, easy shooting load and it suits me fine.

[largom]

hello i am loading for the 30.30 with the ranch dog boolit with a gas check. the lead i am using is lyman #2 the charge is 31.7 gn of 748. i was reading about if the cup is say 30,000/(1422X.90) would result in the need for a bhn of 23.44. is my lead to too soft thanks


Have you sluged your bore? What size?

Did you size your boolits? What size?

What lube are you using?

As others have said, boolit fit is the key. Can you chamber a cartridge with an unsized [as cast] boolit? If so test them unsized by lubeing in an oversized die. With proper boolit fit the gun will tell you what works best.

Larry

[cbrick]

The short answer . . . Yes!

The long answer . . . Don't get caught up in the "hardcast" BS. Bullet fit is far, far, far more important. Your Lyman #2 should be around BHN 17-18, I shoot my 30-30 with a 190 gr bullet of air cooled WW at 12 BHN @ 1900+ fps, I can shoot all day long with zero leading. If you fit the bullet to the firearm it's to be used in Lyman #2 is plenty hard. Proper bullet fit can even help cover up a too hard of alloy.

Harder is not better, it is only harder and harder can and does create it's own problems, such as leading. Don't fall for the "hardcast" propaganda.

Rick

[Whiterabbit]

wow, does this mean I can cast a 45 cal bullet for my 460 S&W to be shot near 60ksi and approaching 2400 fps without the need for a gascheck and without the need to seriously control alloy hardness (to a point of course) just by putting all that energy into really focusing on bullet size?

The follow-up question from the inexperienced is that if this is truly the case, then why to most cast bullet manufacturers recommend their bullets never be pushed faster than 1400 fps?

[Hurricane]

wow, does this mean I can cast a 45 cal bullet for my 460 S&W to be shot near 60ksi and approaching 2400 fps without the need for a gascheck and without the need to seriously control alloy hardness (to a point of course) just by putting all that energy into really focusing on bullet size?[QUOTE]

Give it a try and tell us the results.

[QUOTE] The follow-up question from th inexperienced is that if this is truly the case, then why to most cast bullet manufacturers recommend their bullets never be pushed faster than 1400 fps?

The cast bullet manufacturers want happy customers whether or not the customers know about bullet fit. 1400 fps is a nice speed that will probably work even if the fit is not very good.

[white eagle]

most manufactures cast one size
even with a g/c leading can be an issue

[cbrick]

wow, does this mean I can cast a 45 cal bullet for my 460 S&W to be shot near 60ksi and approaching 2400 fps without the need for a gascheck and without the need to seriously control alloy hardness (to a point of course) just by putting all that energy into really focusing on bullet size?

The follow-up question from the inexperienced is that if this is truly the case, then why to most cast bullet manufacturers recommend their bullets never be pushed faster than 1400 fps?

Can you see a difference between a gas checked 30-30 bullet at a stated 30,000 CUP and a top end 460 plain base bullet at 2400 fps? Did you see anyone in this thread recommend not using a gas check? Should you decide to go there with your 460 I highly recommend first and foremost, make the bullet fit the throats and second, use a gas check.

I've never heard a cast bullet maker say never go past 1400 fps, but assuming some do it seems quite a silly thing to say. One of the problems with commercial cast is that for the most part you cannot fit the bullet to the firearm it's to be fired from, you get what they sell you. Another problem with commercial cast is that they are to hard for the application they were purchased for. They make them hard for the simple reason they withstand the rigors of shipping better than a bullet of proper hardness for the application and has nothing to do with what is best for the person pulling the trigger.

One of the "old wives" tales of cast bulets is that it has to be a powder puff load or you will lead the bore. Perhaps there are commercial casters that still believe this soundly debunked old wives tales.

Rick

[David2011]

Redriverhunter,

One of the potential problems Cbrick warns of is boolit brittleness. A BHN of 23 is OK for punching paper or steel as it will kill the paper very nicely and will shatter to dust on a steel plate or gong. It will do the same thing if it hits bone. At a BHN of 23 is the equivalent of straight Linotype. That's really hard and pretty expensive. I cast up a bunch of straight Lino in .44 mag and have since decided they need to be softer but at the time I was going hog hunting regularly and wanted penetration over expansion. Those boolits were launching from a 14" Contender at 1650 fps.

A softer, malleable boolit will hold up on game and expand properly. You really want the softest alloy that will shoot well in your gun rather than the hardest. Fit is king and the key to not leading as well as accuracy. You're close to Winchester's maximum recommended load of 32.0 grains for a 170 grain J-word.

What problems are you having? All I can see in your post is that your lead is softer than a mathematical formula says it "should" be. Is it leading? Is it accurate or not? What's the diameter of your boolit when it's ready to load? What's the diameter of a pulled boolit after it's been loaded into a prepared cartridge? What's the measured weight of the boolit with GC and lube? There's a wealth of information available here but you'll get more useful repliesif you tell the readers about any problems you're having instead of just saying that your lead is too soft. One other thing- are you using a chronograph? There's no better way to know what's going on with your loads than to run them over a chrono. Everything else is just guessing.

David

[Whiterabbit]

[QUOTE]does this mean I can cast a 45 cal bullet for my 460 S&W to be shot near 60ksi and approaching 2400 fps without the need for a gascheck and without the need to seriously control alloy hardness (to a point of course) just by putting all that energy into really focusing on bullet size?[QUOTE]

Give it a try and tell us the results.

Hi Hurricane,

This kinda reads like me telling my son to go ahead and put that penny in the light socket. Is there a safety concern I should be aware of? Something fundamental that can harm my equipment or harm me?

I'm truly just new at this and trying to learn what the safety limits are for experimentation. I don't wanna stick the penny in there if I don't have to!


Can you see a difference between a gas checked 30-30 bullet at a stated 30,000 CUP and a top end 460 plain base bullet at 2400 fps? Did you see anyone in this thread recommend not using a gas check? Should you decide to go there with your 460 I highly recommend first and foremost, make the bullet fit the throats and second, use a gas check.

Hi Rick,

I interpreted your post as firing a bullet without a gascheck. You can chock that up to a misread on my part.

So perhaps you can help me with the topic then that this thread IS covering, the idea that sizing bullets properly is key. The "other forums" just say size a bullet to .001" over whatever the bore measures. Is that all you guys mean by ensuring proper sized bullets? Or do you guys mean something more involved, more experimental?

Please bear with me, I'm not asking for scolding, I'm asking because I'm motivated to know why you guys do the things you do so I can duplicate them in my shop (and know where the limits are so I don't pass them)

[cbrick]

Whiterabbit, the original post asked if his gas checked Lyman #2 was hard enough for his 30-30. That is very little info to go on but in general yes, it is. Why? Because BHN is not the first consideration, because Lyman #2 at around 18 BHN exceeds the strength (hardness) of MOST (not all) cast bullet shooting, because the very first consideration IS bullet fit. A proper bullet fit will cover up a lot of other things that may not be quite right such as the load or BHN (too hard or too soft) when it comes to accuracy and leading.

Many times sizing .001" over measured groove diameter will work well, sometimes a bit fatter works well. My XP-100 308 shoots it's best sized .0005" over groove diameter because that is what fits the throat of this gun. My Winnie 30-30 shoots its best with bullets sized .002"+ over grove diameter. That's just two examples but both of these firearms shoot air cooled WW @ 12 BHN accurately and lead free to 2,000+ fps. The bullet fit in each firearm is what is important in each case. Alloy strength can be important but it's down the list a ways in what makes for an accurate, lead free load.

I have done a tremendous amount of BHN testing in long range revolver and the single most important thing I learned was that the BHN needs to be consistent within a given group. In other words, my FA 357 will shoot it's best groups with a BHN of 17-18. When I tried to mix bullets of varying BHN within the same group, say from 12-22 BHN there were no groups, I was lucky to even hit the 150 meter target.

I didn't mean to sound like I was scolding, my intent was only to get you to think about the subject. If it came across as scolding I apologize.

Rick

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Rick,

Thank you for bearing with me. To keep on the OP's subject then and flesh out sizing development, tell me if I have things about right. The general "other board" mentality of size a bullet .001 over slugged diameter is OK for a general rule of thumb but not ideal for someone willing to really develop a bullet their gun likes. That repeated testing with bullets from slug diameter up to X diameter over (at least .002, I see) is worthwhile to see what will shoot best. Where, in this case, best means highest accuracy, and least (ideally none) leading. Not necessarily that they will happen at the same time.

Do I understand it about right?

[cbrick]

Yes, in general terms that's about right. There are many variables and bullet fit should be at the top of the list. As for alloy strength look at it this way, Elmer Kieth developed the 44 magnum with plain base bullets with 16:1 and 20:1 alloy that was about 11-12 BHN, an alloy that he considered HARD. Elmer was a happy man with this.

Lot's of variables such as the load, pressure, twist rate, firearm throat, alloy, freebore, bore condition, lube and more. A lot of the effects of any of these that may not be optimum can be minimized by simply making the bullet fit the firearm it will be fired from first. One alloy won't do for every caliber & load but for the vast majority of my shooting I use air cooled WW +2% Sn (12 BHN). For things like 45 ACP HP's, 30 Carbine HP's I use a softer alloy about 9 BHN. For my top end long range revolver loads I use the WW +2% Sn but convection oven heat treated to 18 BHN.

There is a lot of reading you can do on these subjects, here are a few of them.

From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf) Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate; Foreword by John Taffin

Heat Treating Lead/Antimony/Arsenic Alloys (http://www.lasc.us/Kelter_Heat_Treat.pdf)

Cast Bullet Alloys & Alloy Maintenance (http://www.lasc.us/Kelter_Cast_Bullet_Alloys2.pdf)

That should keep you reading for awhile. This is an outstanding forum right here, there is vast experience among the members and most are willing to help out whenever they can. Remember, the only stupid question is the question that you don't ask.

Hope this helps,

Rick

[Whiterabbit]

Then the last questions would be what point it becomes unsafe to shoot a bullet? Presumably it's not a good idea to shoot a bullet sized to .456 through a revolver that slugs to .451, yes?

After that, it's a matter of how folks typically size experiment. I assume that folks here don't own a sizer (as an example) set at .451, .452, 4.53, .454, .455, etc on up. So maybe they start with just a couple, then bore out the sizer bigger and bigger? Presumably what would happen at some point is the bullet wouldn;t shoot was well, then they'd have to junk the sizer and buy a new one at the optimized size, right?

I do read of some folks here to open up sizing dies, but not to the point where it's a foregone conclusion for a given firearm. Or is it really that common and noone talks about it because it is just accepted?

[cbrick]

Don't size a revolver bullet to groove diameter, proper sizing for a revolver is to the throat diameters. If your shooting a 45 Colt, 454 etc and the throats measure .452" and the barrel measures .451" the bullets should be sized to a mild snug fit in the .452" throats. If you size the bullets say .455" they WILL BE .452" when they exit the throats. The only reason to slug a revolver barrel is to know that groove diameter is at or slightly LESS than throat diameters. If the groove diameter measures larger than the throats you'll never get rid of the leading until the throats are reamed to a groove matching diameter. In a revolver I like to size to a mild snug fit in the throats, If I hold the cylinder in one hand I can place a sized bullet in each throat and they will stay there. It should take only light tapping with a pencil to push them through, no tighter or they could be difficult to chamber. If they just fall through the throats the bullets are too small.

As for safe, if you size a 45 caliber bullet for a revolver with .452" throats at .456" unless it's a light/short bullet where the front driving band doesn't reach the throat you'll not be able to chamber it. If your shooting a wadcutter and sizing that much over throat diameter yes, you could raise pressures but I assure you that when it exits the throat it will be throat diameter regardless of groove diameter.

It's rare that I'll hone out a sizer die. After 30+ years of casting I have accumulated at least 3 different sizing dies in each of the calibers that I have cast for. It's rare for any sizing die to size to the exact dimension the die states. Change any of the metals in your alloy and it will change the final sized diameter. The higher the Sb percentage the larger the final sized diameter, in other words a Lino bullet will size slightly larger than a WW bullet cast from the same mold and sized in the same die.

If you take good measurements of your firearm's critical dimensions all that sizing and testing and honing shouldn't be needed.

Rick