30-30 case life

[sven556]

using full (read factory speed) loadings, how many times do you expect to reload the brass?

[Stampede]

It al depends how you size (neck or full lentgh), but i have and use 30-30 brass that is loaded way more than 40 times (perhaps even more)!

I do neck size only and when they run out to much i do a full length sizing and do a "full-service" on the brass (like trimming when needed).

So if you take good care of your brass i will last a very long time.

Peter (Stampede)

[MT Gianni]

I have some I have loaded 6 times with an RCBS X die and no measured stretching.

[Larry Gibson]

+1 on the RCBS X-die. I use it with several cartridges. I adjust mine so the shoulder is minimally set back and I also get excellent case life when FL sizing is needed. I most often NS though and only FL size for big game hunting loads.

Larry Gibson

[white eagle]

as cheap and plentiful as it is I
worry not about how log it lasts

[TXGunNut]

Agreed, white eagle. I don't load or shoot it much but can pick up a double handful most any time I want it at my public range. Could probably pick up a lifetime supply in the next several weeks.
I've heard it doesn't hold up so will probably recycle after 2-3 firings.

[leadman]

I think the short life of 30-30 brass was started by people with old Win 94s with large chambers and they full length sized all the time.
In my Contender I neck size the majority of the time and don't remember the last time I got rid of a case.

[sven556]

Okay now I'm really getting confused! I'm getting answers ranging from 2 reloadings (which I've already exceeded) to over 40!

Leadman, you talk about the older 94's and resizing all the time. I'm shooting a win 94 manufactured in 1947 and right now I full-length re-size every time using LEE dies. I've read you shouldn't neck size in a lever action.

[Stampede]

I use the 30-30's in my TC-Contender, the cases don't run out. I see more wear and tear in my pistol than on the cases, i did some extra checking the batch of cases date back to 1991 and i still use them weekly!

[white eagle]

levers do not have the camming action and strength of other rifle and pistol designs
full length sizing is required(suggested)for levers because of that
both these fellas mention a single action contender which is not a model 94 and
therefore can use different reloading procedures

[JDL]

I use neck sized brass in 2 Marlin 336s and a '94 made in 1958 and never had a problem. I really can't say how many times I've reloaded the Rem-Umc brass but it's been several.

JDL

[TCFAN]

I also load for two 336 Marlins and I neck size my cases with the Lee collect die. Never had a problem with either rifle chambering the reloads. Now these are not full power loads but are 311041 at about 1600fps.
Hunting loads that are factory equivalent are full length sized to make sure they will feed okay.............Terry

[gnoahhh]

My .30/30 loading is for Savage lever guns and Winchester 54. I've never owned a Marlin and my 94s were decades ago. That said, I only ever neck size also and get dozens of loadings out of good virgin brass. When single loading at the bench (using the same one case over and over for each shot) with a mid-range load in the M54 Winchester bolt gun and Unertl scope, I've gotten hundreds of shots before retiring a case. (Admittedly, no resizing of the case, using a custom lead bullet thumb seated into the neck.)

[felix]

Indeed, a case will "never" wear out when it does not exceed its elastic limit at any time. ... felix

[John Boy]

Okay now I'm really getting confused! I'm getting answers ranging from 2 reloadings (which I've already exceeded) to over 40!
Sven, you got some varied opinions, didn't you!
Here's some facts:
* I have some Peters, vintage 1930's that have been reloaded an unknown number of times. When I got them, they had never been cleaned. Cleaned them and have loaded them about 6 or 7 times
* Same goes for old Super-X brass of the 50's. I've reloaded them about a dozen times
* Took some old Winchesters, shot unknown number of times and reformed them to 8.15x46R's - have been shot in excess of 2 dozen times

Now, the bottom line:
50 new 30-30 cases cost $14. Anneal the necks down to the shoulder @ 650 F ... if you reach 90 years old and shoot them regularly ... you will still will have VERY FEW split cases. Will the cases rupture on the walls or have rim separation - NO, even with different fire forming sizes. All cases will split if there is excessive metal working hardness and annealing precludes this at the thinnest part of the case - the neck

Now, have to ask ... Why 'full (read factory speed) loadings'? Having reloaded tens of thousands of different calibers - shot for accuracy out to 1000yds ... hot roding a reload is a pure waste of time and in the majority of the reloads proved to be more inaccurate

PS: Might recommend you buy a good reloading reference manual too because it sounds like your new to reloading

[sven556]

Okay I think I'm about done here. I'm not new to reloading, just the 30-30. I asked the question about case life to get a basis on what to expect from the brass I have. I used the quantifier of factory speed, to weed out the random replies (seems most here don't read and answer the questions asked!). I even updated, in my reply, to add that I'm shooting a older m94 and full length resizing everytime. Still I'm getting erroneous information relating to both a different type of gun and a different reloading technique, without the poster providing any correlation between the two.

There has been a couple interesting replies that I have learned something from even if they didn't pertain to the question.

Now let me try another question here before I return to the trial and error method. Using a M94, what would be the pros and cons of switching to a neck sizing die vs a full length resize?

[Canuck Bob]

You will get longer case life from a proper setup neck sizing die in your Winchester 94. There are many 30-30 reloading threads that outline the procedure. You can use your full length die to neck size. This is my prefered method because the case gets squeezed a bit even when the die is set for the neck only. The camming action thing has never bothered me in the few rifles I've owned and I prefer levers or single shots all with limited extraction advantages.

I can't answer the case life question because I have just started shooting a 32 Special in a 1951 94. My rifle has tight headspace and I expect many reloads per case but I do anneal my brass necks regularly for bottleneck cases. My straight cases have never wore out.

Neck size pros
-cases are custom fit for best accuracy potential and a bit of extra capacity
-brass case is not overly worked
-cases fits with almost zero headspace to reduce cumultive stretching of cases fired regularly- full length sizing and stout loads leads to case web failures over time as the case stretches after every shot- Lee Enfield 303 discussions cover this well as it is notorious for case seperation from full length sizing- basically primer strike drives case forward so rim hits chamber, neck expands and seals neck which clamps case at forward headspace point, pressure drives bottom of case rearward to rear headspace point stretching case just forward of the rim at the case web, add in a bit of 94 action spring for stout loads and one can stretch the web quite a few thousands each firing- doesnt take much to stretch the web 20-30 thou and thin it leading to incipient case seperation in front of rim- this how a guy can get only a 2-3 reloads
- neck sized cases headspace on the shoulder and are fireformed to the chamber so are much less prone to case stretching then eliminate overworking the neck- that is how a guy gets 15-20 reloads

Cons
-many FL dies reduce neck too much and overwork the neck when expanding for bullet seating shortening case life- the LEE neck sizer is highly recommended by many experienced guys
-if shooting cast many die sets do not open the neck up enough therefore the seating action can size the cast bullet down in size causing real problems
-neck sizing may not extract for your rifle but I think this is very unlikely, 94s don't have tight chambers and light pressures- some guys neck size for range shooting and load a handful of hunting ammo fully sized if this concerns you

My planned solution for my 32 Special 94 dedicated to cast shooting is a LEE FL die set with the neck opened up, a Lyman M die with an expander sized for cast bullets, a 30-30 LEE Factory Crimp die (they don't make a 32 Special FCD but the guys here let me know the 30-30 works fine), and pressure levels that promote long case life. With annealing, neck sizing, and rotating a few hundred cases I will shoot a lifetime with those cases.

I hope I have attempted to answer your question regarding neck sizing and the 94.

[John Boy]

I've read you shouldn't neck size in a lever action.
Sven. I sure would like to read the reference you stated for no neck sizing in a lever action!
Secondly. you have never mentioned whether you will be using jackets or as cast or resized lead bullets. Makes all the world of difference about what your going to do with the case mouth
Thirdly, you mentioned you full length size all your cases. If this floats your boat - continue to do it. Some folks always do it and others don't if the same cases are to be used in the same rifle after fireforming. But remember, the more times you squeeze metal and it expands when fired, you are work hardening the brass

OK. neck sizing:
* for jacket bullets and recommend you verify this for yourself ... the case mouth will be too large with excessive neck tension. Set the bullet in the case and seat it with the seating die ... then find the bullet resting on top of the flash hole - even if you shot the same bullet in the same case in the same rifle. Other times with the same case and bullet, the neck diameter will be too small to allow the bullet to be seated with the proper neck tension because the lip of the mouth has rolled inward from firing. And other times, with the same case - rifle and bullet, the neck tension will be perfect, allowing the bullet to be seated properly. SO CHECK EACH CASE BEFORE YOU RELOAD THEM. And don't forget to chamfer the mouth every 2nd or 3rd firing. You can verifiy if the case needs to be chamfered by pulling the end of a fish hook up the inside of the case.

So, to extend the life of the work hardening impact on ALL brass cases, anneal them
Then if the case mouth is too large, squeeze the case mouth only using the full length sizing die. Then you will need to use an expander die to open the mouth for proper neck tension and put a bell on the case


Using a M94, what would be the pros and cons of switching to a neck sizing die vs a full length resize?
Believe you have your shorts twisted and it is choking you respective to the M94. BFD, the procedure is the same for any frigging rifle, lever, pump or single shot.

And remember, we are not talking about rocket science putting a man on the moon. We're talking about plain vanilla reloading that is described in every basic reloading manual. And 50 new rounds of 30-30 cost 14 bucks, not like a $4.00 case if you screw up

So do whatever method appeals to you because you have been provided the options in this thread. But you might want to read this first ... http://www.6mmbr.com/jgcaseprep.html

[G. Blessing]

Might as well jump in here, on the first question; I have some Winchester W-W 30-30 brass that was the ammo purchased with my Win94 new in 1971. It was loaded on average about once a year up until about 05, and in the last 6 years, I've loaded it about 15 times... 34+15= 49, call it 50 loadings. 170grn cast FP at around 1900 fps IIRC. Still looks the same, and i haven't had to trim it in the last 10 years of loading it. I see no reason to retire it.

I full length size. Thats what the die is for, and its just easier than trying to half stroke it.
Also, the one time i can remember just neck sizing, I had trouble with the base of the cartridge chambering.

G.

[Char-Gar]

Sven... No need to get miffed. What you are experience here is the fact there is no answer to your question. Rifles, brass cases, realoding dies and all of the other variables differ from shooter to shooter. Therefore the results will be different.

The real answer to your question is to load your ammo with your dies, shoot your rifle and keep track of how long it takes for the brass to fail. That will be the answer to your question.

To get a dead on answer, you must ask a dead on question and when it comes to brass life, there is no dead on answer or question. All you will get is the experience and opinions of other, which will have little or no bearing on your situation.

[sven556]

Thanks everyone! I apologize for my last post. I was having a bad day and ended up ranting here. I understand everyone was trying to help and I'm very thankful for that. We are very fortunate to live in this time where we can wade through all this information (and ask specific questions) about a topic, that to most, is very obscure!

I figure for now I'll stick to full length sizing and see how many reloads I get from the brass. Or, I might get some more brass and try the partial full length sizing and keep the current lot of brass I have using full length sizing as a comparison. Anyone done a study like this? Also, how do you figure out how far to back off the full length sizing die?

Thanks,
Sven

[GabbyM]

Also, how do you figure out how far to back off the full length sizing die?

Thanks,
Sven

Several ways to do it. One I sometimes use. Take a felt tip ink marker and blacken a few spots on a fired case shoulder. Back the die off a bit and play with it until you hit the shoulder. Then back it off 1/8 turn or leave it right there. Then size another. Take your calipers and measure the shoulder diameter to see how much you are sizing the shoulder diameter. All you want to do is squeeze it in .001” to .003”. If you set the die to where you are just bumping the shoulder diameter and your case chambers good. This insures a fat case does not slip though which may not chamber well. What you’ll get with most factory cut rifle chambers is a case that’s blown out to a fat chamber. Which is why you hear guys say to size just half the neck. Maybe still sizing the shoulder diameter that far up. Once you quite sizing the case body you’ve backed off enough for sure.

Things to look for are chambers cut or worn out of round. Also if you’re slightly sized 30-30’s chamber tight make sure you aren’t pulling the shoulder forward as you up stroke the neck expander button. That will happen with most bottle neck cases if the die overworks the neck as they usually do and you don’t lube the inside neck with mica or something.
Quick fix is to remove the expander button and use the Lyman M die to open the neck on it’s down stroke.

Realize I’ve split a few hairs here but you ask.

[sven556]

Thanks Gabby, I'll give that a try. I already use a lyman M die so I might go ahead and reduce the diameter of the expander/decapper rod so it doesn't stretch the shoulder, I have a couple extra expanders anyway.

[sven556]

How often should I anneal? Can anyone point me to a good site that explains the annealing process? I've read about a couple different ways to do it but I could use a refresher!

[Char-Gar]

Sven... I have annealed cases only two or three times in my 50 years of reloading. I have never been so broke I have had to do emergency life saving measures on a brass case. When cases fail, I toss them.

Folks who are match shooters will aneal frequently to keep the next hardness uniform to provide for a uniform bullet tension. I have never found that necessary in my kind of shooting.

[felix]

Most BR shooters don't anneal. New cases when groups start south, usually after about 10 reloads. 8 rounds per relay is all that is required for the typical match. We are talking 80 rounds with those 8 cases. Case cost is minuscule compared to the other expenses of the BR game. ... felix

[Ed in North Texas]

Sven. I sure would like to read the reference you stated for no neck sizing in a lever action! snip

My preference is neck sizing whenever I can. That being said, it is my recollection that back in the 50's and 60's most any reloading article in Field and Stream or Outdoor Life, which included loading for lever actions, would most likely include that bit of "everybody knows" (mis)information. It was most likely based on the proposition that "everyone" was trying to squeeze the last foot per second out of their loads (almost universally true in those days, after all - they were the "heyday" of wildcatting). It may have been "information" which had started earlier than the 50's, but since I wasn't reading those magazines before about 54 or 55, I can't say.

[ProudOkie]

I bought 100 casings from a guy on ebay, and all of them are bulged at the base of the case they wont even go in the gun. Anything I can do?

[earthling121757]

You've full length resized them and they still won't fit? What gun are you trying them in?

[Wolfer]

I started reloading for my 336 in 30-30 in the late 70s. A Lee loader which neck sizes only. I couldent guess how many time I reloaded those cases. I hunted with these loads and never had a issue with chambering a round. Sometime in the mid 80s I got a press and a FL die and still use the same brass. I can't recall ever throwing one away. I've never annealed a case in my life.

If there is a bottleneck cartridge out there that is easier on brass I don't know what it is.