Has this ever happened to you?

[tomf52]

The gun is a Marlin Cowboy .32 H&R Mag. The routine has been taking four or five batches of varying loads, five shots each, to the range for load development and then going home and thoroughly cleaning the gun. Return the next trip and same prcedure. All, unfortunately with little or no success in getting anything to shoot well even after following the reccomendations of many knowledgeable people both here and on other websites. The bullet has been RCBS 98 gr SWC pushed with 3.2 to 3.4 Bullseye. Many others have sworn to this load as being golden. Today I went to the range with a box of fifty of these and saw the same dismal results for the first forty rounds, groups in the 2 to 4 1/2 " range. Then like a bolt of lightning struck the last ten rounds went into a group that you could almost cover with a quarter. Could it be possible that my barrel requires that many fouling shots to shoot well? And yes, I have been through the process of elimination of scopes , bullet sizing, lubes, etc. Can't figure this one out.

[williamwaco]

Can you spell "Fluke".

If you shoot that many groups you are bound to get a small one sooner or later.
If you can go back and do it again with the same load, you may have discovered something.

Marlin states the "Cowboy" barrel has a "Tapered octagon with deep-cut Ballard-type rifling (6 grooves)."
This barrel should not be subject to any of the horror stories you hear about Marlin's and cast bullets.

If you have tried all the suggestions available here, I can offer only one more. Ocassionally a barrel will have a tight spot that swages the bullet down as it passes through. Then the bullet just rattles down the rest of the barrel. search this site for posts on "fire lapping".

[onondaga]

Keep shooting, maybe it is just finally broken in!

Gary

[ss40_70]

my thought are this ... i treat the rifles i shoot cast out of a bit like a .22 rifle shoot it a lot and clean it a little now i havent ever had to shoot 40 rounds to get the conditioning back into the barrel but i have had to shoot between 10 and 20 rounds to get a provin load back to what it shot before i went over board on cleaning

[Al_sway]

The gun is a Marlin Cowboy .32 H&R Mag. The routine has been taking four or five batches of varying loads, five shots each, to the range for load development and then going home and thoroughly cleaning the gun. Return the next trip and same prcedure. All, unfortunately with little or no success in getting anything to shoot well even after following the reccomendations of many knowledgeable people both here and on other websites. The bullet has been RCBS 98 gr SWC pushed with 3.2 to 3.4 Bullseye. Many others have sworn to this load as being golden. Today I went to the range with a box of fifty of these and saw the same dismal results for the first forty rounds, groups in the 2 to 4 1/2 " range. Then like a bolt of lightning struck the last ten rounds went into a group that you could almost cover with a quarter. Could it be possible that my barrel requires that many fouling shots to shoot well? And yes, I have been through the process of elimination of scopes , bullet sizing, lubes, etc. Can't figure this one out.

What are you using for lube?

[leftiye]

Maybe sum loob development?? (better lube)

[camaro1st]

have you tried as a single shot? the tube spring may have to much tension. also is the barrel band if it is too tight when the barrel warms up it may pull the barrel. there is a site on accurizing the marlins. cant remember for sure where i found it but had good info. will see if i can find it again. here it is http://www.levergun.com/articles/Race_Tuning.htm hope it helps

[KYCaster]

I have a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. with the MG rifling. My son and I have taken several deer with it using those copper clad things. When I started casting for rifles about five years ago, this is the one I started with.

An RCBS 35-200-FP cast of WW or 50 WW/50 Pb lubed with Bull Shop Speed Green will consistently shoot under 2 MOA and I've taken three deer with this load. Performance seems to be identical to Win. or Rem. 200 RN.

Two years ago, just before the season opened, I realized that the barrel hadn't had a good cleaning for at least 300 rounds, so I decided to change that. Alternating Hoppe's #9, Ed's Red and bronze brushes, I scrubbed it till patches came out clean, then changed to Nu-finish car wax and got more black patches. Finished with a light coat of Rem-Oil.

I took the twenty rounds I had loaded and went out to foul the barrel and verify my zero.....first shot was 18 inches high....at 50 yds!!!! :shock:

Each successive shot was a little bit closer to the bull, but after the 20 rounds were gone I was still 4 in. above POA. Loaded another fifty rounds and after 36 rounds I felt it was close enough to shoot for group. The first five shots at 100 yds. were centered about one in. high. Next group was right where it should be. Two more groups and I was satisfied.

I don't shoot the gun a lot...maybe 100 rounds a year, but now the only cleaning it gets is a bore snake followed by a dry patch then a patch wet with Bull Plate lube. I do that just before the season opens then shoot a couple of groups to verify the zero.

Works for me. [smilie=s:

Jerry

[nicholst55]

I would not clean the rifle until I determined if it needs to be that dirty to shoot, or if it was just Murphy's Law of Shooting (if you put enough projectiles downrange, eventually you'll hit something) catching up with you.

Now I do own a rifle (or two) that displayed that dramatic an improvement in grouping ability when the barrel finally broke-in, but in my experience it is uncommon.

[noylj]

Have you tried different sized bullets?
Have you slugged the bore?
Have you tried to single load and varied the COL?
Have you tried lifting the muzzle up before shooting to get the powder near the primer?
What is golden for some will not always be golden for you.
I could see trying Red Dot and Unique.
You can also try Trail Boss, which works wonderfully in some of guns.

[bbqncigars]

Keep shootin' it until it really needs cleaning. If it's still shooting poorly, check for tight/loose spots in the bore with a tight fitting patched jag. Some Marlin owners have reported tight spots where the barrel is dovetailed. Good luck.

[geargnasher]

Interesting. I tend to think Gary is right, the gun is finally broken-in. Without fail, every rifle I've "converted" to cast has required 50-150 rounds through it before it got to shooting well. That, of course, includes improved load development during that break-in process, but what has really baffled me and brought me to the "barrel seasoning" and "cast-boolit break-in" theories is that, after break-in period, I can go back and shoot some of the loads I first tried that didn't group well, and Voila', they shoot just fine!

More than once I've pulled my hair out working up a load, trying this and that, changing components, techniques, etc. and then suddenly the gun starts shooting straight with just about anything I feed it.

I'd load 50 more of the same thing, DO NOT clean it, go shoot another 10 or 20 and see if you get the tight groups again, THEN clean it and see if the groups go to pot right away and slowly come back. If the gun likes to remain fouled, just wipe the bore with a dry patch and and oily patch and then dry patch before shooting again. This should preserve the bore condition and prevent rust between shooting sessions. Often, I don't clean my rifles at all other than to push a dry patch through and remove any surface powder residue that can attract moisture, the season left behind by the boolit lube is often enough to preclude a solvent-based cleaning. Old frying pans don't rust once they are seasoned and wiped with oil.

Gear

[nanuk]

I tend to agree with Gear on this one...

if it isn't leading, why clean it?

I've got an old 22 that I've had for 25 years and shot countless round through it, as I"m sure they did the 50 years before I got it.
there is no bluing left, no finish on the stock and the bolt has had a tack weld to tighten it up a bit.
it will still hit a grouse as far as I can see with the poor sights, and head shots are not a fluke inside 25 yds

[Char-Gar]

I am also one of those who think your observations are correct. I have experience the same thing on many occasions. The last group will be much, much better than the first groups.

Most barrels require some sort of "season" to do well with cast bullets, although the number of rounds seem to vary quite a bit. This variance is what sparks such a lively discussion on the subject.

This business of barrel season and whether or not to clean sets off another lively discussion.

I take sort of a middle of the road position. After each range session, I run a nylon brush with Ed. Red down the bore, followed by two or three wet patches until the black is gone. I thin dry with a couple of patches. The first 3 to 6 rounds I will fire through the barrel will bring it back to top condition, but I don't expect much from the first 5 to 10 rounds.

"Back in the day" when I shot competition with 22 rifles, we never cleaned our rifles during the match season for the same reason. After the season we would clean them, and it took 200 to 500 round to get them back to match performance.

Recently some folks did some testing to debunk 22 cleaning notion, but you will never convince an old rifleman, that it is not true. We saw it on the targets time and time again. So we choose to believe our own eyes rather than a published test.

If there is any truth I can take away from all of this, it is that barrels are individuals and each one must be treated as such. It is difficult to draw anything, but the most general conclusions about the subject.

[onondaga]

There is a lot of break-in routines and cleaning routines that work terrific for different people and different rifles.

I start a rifle new or if it has shot jacketed bullets with a bore polishing with a Hoppe's Bore snake and Turtle Wax Chrome Polish and rust remover. I polish the bore immaculate.

At the range, I pull a clean Bore Snake through every 5 shots. At home I do a quick spray down the bore with Hoppe's Elete, let set for 3 minutes. I take a bronze bristle brush on a cleaning rod and spray it with Elete, take 1 stroke for each shot fired and then 10 more for good measure. Then I wet patch once more and finally dry patch till dry.

I do keep my bores clean and this has made the difference with consistency for my shooting. I can only prove it for myself and my rifles, but I believe my cleanup routine eliminates the first shot flier and warm-up vertical dispersion that many shooters just live with.

Gary

[tomf52]

Thank you all for your replies. In retrospect, I think I went though this same senario a year or so back without realizing it until now. I always cleaned thoroughly after each range session except for that one occurence then and this one now. At least now I am aware of the possibilities with cleaning and not and can proceed with some routines based on that single parameter keeping all others that did provide the good groups constant. It should prove interesting. If it is a large number of fouling shots after a cleaning that is requuired I sure did waste a lot of ammo and time over the last three years withis rifle trying to get it to shoot.

[TXGunNut]

Slugging and checking for constrictions seem like good suggestions. That could point you in the direction of an easy fix. OTOH I have a rifle that I only shoot j-word bullets thru and it will not shoot unless it's cold & dirty. Named her after an old girlfriend. Took a few hundred rounds downrange and a few tanks of gas going to & from the range to figure it out but it's all good. Some of the boolits I shot in my GG last year seem to be working better this year, may be something to this seasoning theory.

[tomf52]

TXgunNut - Barrel has been slugged and checked. All is well there.

[tomf52]

A quick update. Went to the range today and the gun shot well consistenly. This was without cleaning the bore at all. Will continue to shoot it for a while and see if it continues to behave. will then clean it well and see if it goes back to square one. This should either confirm or eliminate the many shot fouling theory I believe that it is. Will post results later on, Tom.

[jreid]

Just a quick thought, are you pushing the bullets too fast? I just lately started shooting cast in a .30-30. At first, the bullets were going too fast and left some lead which made it shoot about 6" right at 70yds. After 5 or 6 bullets it came in to zero and shot just fine. It bothered me, so I cleaned the barrel and shot some slower bullets and they shot a 1" group dead center, and it was not bench rested.

Another thought, with a revolver I tried the highly suggested load of Unique. That thing hit everywhere but where I was aiming. I went back to Winchester 231 and 6 shots go just about through the same hole.

I guess I'm the type that onondaga is. I clean after every shooting session or 20 shots which ever comes last. With those copper things, the first shot was always a bulls-eye. Now with lead, it's still the bulls-eye on the first shot. I don't wax the barrel, but I do make sure it's shiny clean. If the first five shots won't do it, you might as well not have a gun.

[MtGun44]

How did you select the diameter that you are using? What is groove diam and what
diameter are you sizing to?

Bill

[Three44s]

If it's working ......... just keep at it!!

I agree that there must be something a miss but when it's working ............ it's working!

My regime includes USP bore paste, copper chore boy, about any good bore solvent and finnishing up with a bore coating material like CorrosionX.

After I get a bore pretty well polished, the bore paste gets shelved. The copper chore boy is rarely needed by then as well.

I am all for slugging and that stuff ......... but just shoot yours even if it means it shoots well in a "fouled" state.

Three 44s

[JIMinPHX]

If the barrel has a loose spot in it, or if your boolits are a little undersized, then maybe you need to build up some crud inside the barrel in order to get a good consistent gas seal. If that is the case, then a heavier charge of a slightly slower powder may bump the boolit up to size better & perform well for you.

Another possibility is that you are seeing some lever-gun mag-tube-flex. Some lever guns are sensitive to the varying amount of pressure that the magazine tube spring puts on the barrel as the tube empties. A hot barrel may have a different sensitivity to this than a cold barrel. If you load your cartridges one at a time by hand & don't use the magazine at all, then you may see an improvement. If that does fix your accuracy issue, then there are a lot of things that you can do to the gun to make it less sensitive to that sort of thing.

If it were a bolt gun, I'd say check the bedding, but on a lever gun, things are different.

I would also think about slugging the barrel in about 3 or 4 different places to see if you have an inconsistent diameter in the bore.