Aluminum Extrusions

[thehouseproduct]

Does anyone here do custom aluminum extrusions or have any experiance having dies made?

[357 Voodoo]

Unless you need several thousand feet the cost is way to prohibitive. About 10 years ago I worked for a company that made the dies. the cost for a small die with a simple profile was several thousand dollars.The larger the die and the more complex the profile the higher the cost.

What kind of profile are you thinking about.

[dragonrider]

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Aluminum+extrusions&src=IE-SearchBox

Over 8 million results. somewhere in there you may be able to find what you need.

[thehouseproduct]

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Aluminum+extrusions&src=IE-SearchBox

Over 8 million results. somewhere in there you may be able to find what you need.
Geez. With that what reason would I have to ask a smaller community for a more personal recommendation?

It's even funnier you'd post such a smart *** answer underneath a valuable answer.

[DukeInFlorida]

If you need a custom shape, there are a few things that define the cost of a die.

How large is the cross section of the shape? Is it a "hollow" or a solid? What alloy would you want the part made in? How many feet of aluminum would you need to buy?

Unless you have enough usage to justify a new die, it's best to check with extruders and see if someone has a die which makes a shape similar to what you want.

[dragonrider]

Obviously you misunderstood, I'm not surprised really.

[thehouseproduct]

Even though I'm awfully slow, I managed to trick my way into an advanced engineering degree. I want to make a clamp for extended shotgun magazines with an integrated rail. While first production runs will likely be fully machined, I would be able cut out 85% of the machine time by starting with an extrusion. While I have opened several tools like this in Taiwan and China, I prefer this made in America. I posted the question here because it seems that members here are workers or owners at a large mixture of manufacturing companies. I'd prefer to partner with a firearms enthusiast here than just pick a random company off of Bing.

[JIMinPHX]

The last time that I checked, there was about a 10,000 pound minimum to get an extrusion run done. The wait to get mill time was around 9 months. That was about 8 years ago. I don't know what the situation is these days.

I did find that if you are looking for something that is close to an existing standard, that you can some times get away with a cheap die charge. I needed some material to finish up @ 3.026-3.028" diameter. I wanted 3.05" round bar stock to start with. At first I was quoted a pretty steep die charge. After I reminded they sales guy that an old worn-out 3" die would be a good starting point for a regrind, the die charge came WAY down.

If you can give me an idea of the shape & size you are looking for, I may be able to suggest a scraped parent die to start from.

[TCLouis]

Not the answer you asked for but not meant to be anything other than helpful either.

What about precision castings. Run requirements are likely to be smaller and may well meet your fit/finish requirements.

[JIMinPHX]

There are a lot of structural shapes that are available as standards these days. You might be surprised at what you can find off-the-shelf if you look hard enough.

[thehouseproduct]

The last time that I checked, there was about a 10,000 pound minimum to get an extrusion run done. The wait to get mill time was around 9 months. That was about 8 years ago. I don't know what the situation is these days.
That would probably kill the extrusion route for me. The part is only an inch long so a couple dozen 10' bars would last a long time. Guess I'll stick with machining and look into casting.

[JIMinPHX]

Roughly what shape & size are you looking for your rough stock to be?

[DukeInFlorida]

Extrusions are usually used when you get the benefit from a lineal technology.
Examples:
1) Built in screw mounting bifurcations
2) Strength that a casting would not supply (not that castings aren't strong, but they aren't as strong as extrusions)
3) Long parts, where it would be difficult to do as a casting
4) Thin parts, again, where it would be difficult to do as a casting.
5) zero draft angles. Castings require a few angles of degree in the design.

Each extrusion manufacturer has their specialty areas. Some are better with hollows. Some are better with solids. Some are smaller circle size, and some are larger circle size.

You'd have to figure out what size circle your part would fit into, and then focus on that when approaching the extruders. Don't bother a large hollow circle size extruder when looking for a 4" solid type part. By focusing on the right extruders, you'll only have 8-10 extruders to deal with when searching for an existing die shape that would work for you. Some extruders have their "open" dies listed on web sites to review. The custom dies are "owned" by specific customers, and the dies are maintained only for those customers, and not open or available for others. Open dies usually only have a small minimum dollar amount to run them. You won't find any extruders with a semi custom shape sitting in inventory (as finished extrusion). But the run qty is MUCH less than 10,000 pounds.

Couple of questions:
1) Expected qty first year?
2) Expected qty year two?
3) What would you expect that the part you would MACHINE, would sell for as a replacement part? That is, it's part of an assembly. But if the assembly is going to sell for, say $100. You can't charge $50 for a 1" long part made out of aluminum as a replacement part (should someone need to replace that part. )
4) If you bought an extrusion shape, or even wanted to do castings, how much additional machining does the part require to make it usable in your product? If the additional machining (finishing) cost is, say, more than 50% of the cost of a casting or extrusion, it's likely best to just make it as a machined part, especially if the real volumes are low.

The answers to those questions typically assist in defining the method of manufacturing.

I have been an industrial sales guy for the past 30+ years, and have sold extrusions, castings, etc. I could perhaps help you with some of those decision making discussions. I don't currently have any vested interest in any outcome of your adventure. I've also done a BUNCH of marketing studies for start up companies. Including a study for one guy who mistakenly spent the $30,000 for casting tooling for a $500 Christmas Tree Stand, which no one would ever buy (because no one spends that much, ever, on a Christmas tree stand.) Had he waited until after my marketing study, he would have saved that money. He hired me to figure out the best way to sell and market the stand. The news wasn't good for that product.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The part is only an inch long so a couple dozen 10' bars would last a long time. Guess I'll stick with machining and look into casting.

With the part only one inch high I would definitely look into machining before any other method. What you got to do is think "outside the box" when planning the approach. Look into what options you can have for the size of bar aluminum lengths. Then see how many parts you can fit into the cross section footprint of the bar, remember to add space for a 1/4" or a 3/8" endmill. Mill the parts and cut them off with a saw/slit mill. As a bonus, with the right tooling you can chamfer both ends of the parts before cutting them from the stock - an option you don't have with extruded parts.

Once you know the cost price of a machined part, it's just a matter of doing the math to find the number at which you will break even having the parts extruded instead.

[garym1a2]

You might want to look into injection molding plastics. The cost will be much lower and many plastics can handle force and temperature quite well. You just need the right plastic and make sure its glass filled. You may also look into small local machine shops, some times they have excessive time on CNCs and can get you a decent price for small runs.

[TCLouis]

Ya gotta love this place, you still have some research to do on your own, but you have a buncha bucks in free consulting/knowledge from right here on the Boolit -N- Board.

[hiram1]

yep there some good guys here to help a person.if thay ask.

[FDGI]

Hey Folks,

I know this is an old thread, but it had good information, so I signed up and thought I would just add my questions to this one, and try and keep all the info together for the next poor soul that is venturing this direction... so if any of you have any advice, tips, or direction for me, my name is Rob and I could use any advice or direction you might be able offer - I'm little lost, but I'm extremely determined.

So here goes: I'm developing a patent-pending firearm accessory that holds/turns two pistols into what I'm calling a 'Never-Empty Double Gun', or 'NEDG':

http://www.theNEDG.com

I came up with this concept last summer, sent out a press release, and got quite a positive reception from the public. (And a fair share of 'haters' as well, but they are everywhere:) So, I started looking into plastic injection and CNC, but then someone in the firearms industry told me last week to forget plastic, the stock, and the thumbhole grips, and do everything out of Aircraft Grade 6061-T6 aluminum, with Grade 8 military specification fasteners, and just allow for an add-on aftermarket stock. (If it has no stock, and as long as the overall length is 26", it will be classified as an 'other', instead of an SBR, supposedly - still waiting on confirmation from BATF.)

Basically, I'm from a little town in PA and I know a guy there my dad has done business with for years that owns a machine shop with some kind of fancy CAM software - and since he's a fabricator, he knows how to design stuff that works and that is cheap to build... so now I'm trying to find the right extrusion company to work with that is basically willing to work with me to come up with something 'smart', that will make use of whatever exists, and not do it for the sake of doing it/reinventing the wheel, so I can make a few prototypes and then ramp up into small batch production.

As far as budgets go, I threw out my old one and am starting over again now. I had a few investors genuinely interested until all the talks of the gun ban and then they slammed on the brakes. One told me that once the ban is resolved, they would work something out with me, but essentially I think its going to cost about $20k in design and another $15k in prototypes, and then I should be ready to go into production... but no one really knows (or will tell me) until we start designing.

So based on all that, without a 2d look at the shape and some dimensions, what do you all think about companies that might be good to approach, or really any ideas whatsoever? I don't even know the right questions to ask you.... what would you ask you? :)

[DukeInFlorida]

You might want to start a NEW thread, with a new title, and you might get more exposure.

Of course, you have to be ready for the 10,000 opinions, which may or may not mean a damn thing.
I have sent you a PM, responding to your PM, and addressed some of your questions there.

[popper]

Right on Duke. Been through a dozen or so ideas I couldn't make a profit on (yes I did do the $ eval) or would be stolen by the Chicoms or gov. motors. Got to figure sales, promo, design and profit before production costs. Guess that's why everybody wants to get a degree writing VBasic code. No risk - no profit either.

[hiram1]

I think you could get ruger castings to help you out they do that .