Question about sabots.....

[RBak]

I have a question or two regarding the loading of sabots.
Since I have never shot a sabot before, in any of my muzzleloaders, I thought I better ask this seemingly, and very likely, stupid question.

I just came by a couple of boxes of .58 cal Hornady Sabots loaded with the 45-300 HP/XTP jacketed bullet.
I plan on trying these in my .58 cal Big Boar, so it was only natural that I set one in a loading position on the end of the barrel and was amazed at how "loose" they seem to fit....I think it would have slid all the way down if I had turned it loose.
My question on this is, is this normal?
Will that thing stay "loaded" if I tip the barrel down? Do I need to "hard seat" this thing in hopes of flaring the hollow base so it will stay seated tight on the powder?
The sabot measures .572 at the base, and I have always shot a .570 ball with a .014 patch, which was tight yet relatively easy to load, so I hope you can see my concern here.

Secondly, I also noticed that my loading jag, which has always been used for round ball and patch, along with an occasional Minie-Ball, is not going to fit that .45 cal bullet to well...do I need a special loading jag for these? (The tips of the HP bullets look a bit fragile with the cross sectional petals)

At this point, never having fired one, I am starting to have doubts about the practicality of these highly touted sabots...what am I seeing wrong, what am I missing?
What is it that's driving the younger folks crazy with these things?

Surely there is more here than just a little bit of velocity.

Russ

[Omnivore]

I haven't tried sabots in 58 cal, but in my 50 cal the Hornady sabots fit plenty tight. So tight that if I didn't swab between shots I could barely get them down the bore. Zero chance of un-seating a loaded round during handling.

You may have been given the wrong combination of bullet and sabot. Measuring the sabot O.D. by itself won't tell you much, I don't think. Its thickness has to be matched to the O.D. of the bullet, much like fitting a patch to a ball to a bore.

I have often had issues with ram rod tips. The manufacturers seldom address the issue. Seems if you want a tip that doesn't deform the projectile, you need to make one. If you're using Hornady bullets I'd call Hornady and see of they have an answer for you.

[10 ga]

Omnivore, I have a 58 cabellas hawken style. I use the 58X45 gray sabots some but prefer PRB. The sabot seems loose now but I think once you put the bullet in the sabot it will offer plenty of resistance to loading. The bullet spreads the petals of the sabot and it will give a nice tight fit. Let me know if this is what happens. If the sabot is loose with the bullet in it then you have some adapting to do. As for loading jag fit you'll have to fix that. I use spinjags to load all my MLs. Those 300 gr 45s in a sabot in that 58 shoot good for me with 85 gr of FFF Swiss, just as good as PRB. Of course the 2nd one, sabot, is difficult to load and then, after second shot, you have to swab to get any more down the tube. For a 1st shot they are nice. 1 shot is all you're probably gonna get anyway. I often swab my bore for reloading when hunting. Keeps the accuracy of the reload good. Let me know how that sabot fits with the bullet in it. 10 ga

[RBak]

I have never figured out why I would want to use a sabot in a muzzle loader to shoot a sub caliber bullet and try to make it go fast enough to have it expand to the original .58 caliber (or 50 cal. for that mater) it's just doesn't make sense to me!

I'm not sure it makes sense to me either fishhawk, but, if I don't try it, I'll never know what all the excitement is about.
Surely there is 'something' there, and since I have no clue what to expect I thought asking might easy the mind a bit.

I'm not real sure folks are looking for it to expand to the original caliber, after all, from a .45 to a .58 is a pretty big step by any stretch.
I somehow have the feeling that most folks are looking for a little better trajectory and possibly a little extended range but I'll have to see for myself how that part works out.
As far as energy goes, I think about anything I hit a piece of paper with is going to kill it stone dead, or at least punch a hole in it.

10ga...the sabots I have are grey, and maybe once I actually shoot one I will know more about what's going on. BUT....if it drops down the bore, like I think it might, you can betcha I won't be shooting it.

Hunting season is just around the corner here in my neck of the woods, and I know beyond a doubt that for Deer season I will be using a .50 with a prb, and for Elk I will most likely use one of the .58's with a prb also.
As fishhawk mentioned, I personally don't see any advantage in using the sabot on an animal as large as an Elk....but then again, I suspect I'm talking through my hat as I have never even fired one much less killed something with it.

Ominvore, have you taken any game with your .50 using a sabot?
If you have, I would like hear what you have to say about the effectiveness, the range, the trajectory, or whatever else you may have noticed that makes them so popular.

Thanks for the replies.

Russ

[slamminsammy]

My big boar shoots them real good. They will seem real loose fitting when you start them down the barrel due to the QAL Thompson Center uses on the end of the barrel. They should tightin up when they get past that point. Also make sure they twist a little going down.

[Rick Hodges]

I have taken a few whitetail deer with a .50 cal saboted load with a .451/300 gr. hornady htp bullet at 1775 fps. I also kill deer with a 45/70 and a .458 300 gr. remington bullet at an actual 1880 fps. The 50 cal. results are same as the 45/70. Devastating. Both shoot flat enough to give me a comfortable 150 yd. point blank range.

What led to adopting the sabot load was a bad experience with a .54 shooting full caliber projectiles. I missed a very nice buck by mistaking a 120 yd. shot for a 90 yd. shot. I shot right under him. That won't happen with the sabots. The difference in trajectory is an eye opener. (the .54 load was 385 gr. r.e.a.l. bullet at 1290 fps. dead on at 90 and 12" low at 120) The saboted load is never more than 3" high nor more than 3" low to 150 yds. Either of the loads kill deer very well. The Hornady hp's do destroy more meat, while the r.e.a.l.'s seem to just punch nice big holes through and through. I still use the .54 if the cover is tight and longer shots are not likely.

[RBak]

The difference in trajectory is an eye opener.

Rick, That's what I keep hearing......at what distance do you Zero your rifle in order to capitalize on this extended range and maintain some semblance of a PBR?

For 100 yds, and anything in between, my zero with my 1861 Colt is 35yds, a 575315 Minie, and 45gr FFFg Goex, and I've used / shot that load for years on end.
I honestly don't think I have ever shot anything, including paper, at 200yds with a muzzleloader.

An acquaintance of mine, actually the guy that talked me into trying the sabots, says that with my short barreled .58 Big Bore and a load of 90gr FFg Goex, I should zero 2" high at fifty yards for a 175 / 200 yd PBR zero.

Do you agree with this? Does that look / sound about right to you?
For me, that just blows my mind! I suspect I need to see it to believe it.

I gotta get off my duff, get off this computer, and get out to the range to see some of this for myself.
I took a pretty nasty fall about 3 weeks ago at the Air Port in Denver, 25 August in fact, chipped the bone in my right arm / elbow and it's still swollen pretty bad. Not near as painful anymore, but still swollen, and still green, yellow, blue, purple and all those other nice colors......
Doc says stay away from using that arm until at least after this week end, and no shooting until October...but Gawd! I'm antsy about this. I never get antsy about anything at my age, but this sabot stuff has my mind working and I need to actually see some things for myself....if ya know what I mean.


Russ

[Rick Hodges]

Rbak,
I can only tell you my experience with my weapons. My .50 Omega with 300gr Hornady XTP's in black sabot over 100 gr. loose 777 chrono's at 1770 fps (corrected to muzzle). I zero +1/3/4" at 50 yds, that puts me + 1 1/2" at 100 yds. and - 3 1/4" at 150 yds.

I should point out that I am over 60 and the rifle is scoped to cope with tired eyes. The scope being an inch and a half above the bore gives the appearance of flattening the trajectory more than irons only 3/4" above the bore. I have tried the same bullets in .54 sabots from my short bbl. TC Scout Carbine. I can't get the same velocity (about 1550) and the maximun PB range for it is 140 yds. (+/- 3"). I use it with full caliber boolits for hunting in close confines where ranges are unlikely to exceed 75 yds.

These zero points were suggested by a program called Point Blank and were very helpful, but you must shoot the weapon to confirm, the program is close but not exact. Good luck with what ever load you end up with. A friend of mine drew a NM Elk Muzzleload tag last Year and shot a 340" Bull elk with his Omega and the 250 gr. bonded TC Spitzer bullet and sabot. The shot was at some 235 yds. The bullet did not expand at all. The plastic tip was deformed but it looked like he could reuse the bullet. (his load was 2 50 gr. 777 pellets). That bullet lodged in the chest after penetrating the heart. While he got his elk, he won't shoot that far away with that combo again.

I should also point out that the 300 gr Hornady/sabot load with 100 gr. of 777 is a decidedly unpleasant load to shoot out of a light rifle like the Omega.....but it does reach out there a bit.

Good Luck finding what works in your rifle, that is what it is all about anyway.

Rick

[Rick Hodges]

Rbak,

It just occurred to me that I didn't mention wind drift. Windage is a much bigger problem shooting at relatively long range with any large projectile, slow velocity bullet than drop in trajectory. Shooting at 150 yds. with a fairly brisk crosswind is a real eye opener. I don't recommend long range shots at game with a muzzle loader, but I do like the flatter trajectory to compensate for my miserable range estimating abilities.

Rick

[10 ga]

Rbak, My 58 shoots real good. I mostly use .565 RBs. with linen or pillow tick patches. For range and trigger time I shoot mostly 60 gr of FFF Swiss. Easy on the shoulder and only a little low at 50 yd from hunting load. My go to hunting load is 110 gr. of FF Swiss behind a hard RB, 49-49-2 of COWW and soft PB and tin, in the pillow ticking patch, I use a .562 (with pure) RB mold and it cast a bit larger with the alloy. I use 1-1-1 lube of deer tallow, beeswax, peanut oil on all patches. The lube and the Swiss and a bore polished by all those patches does not build foul very much. That 110 gr load is a real thumper but I only have open sights and with woods hunting never get a shot over about 80 yds. That 58 is a real deer killin machine. Most shots result in DRT and then a couple of 15 yd. dead deer jumpin jobs. Like fishhawk said with the 58 I don't need no stinkin expansion, just penetration. I have never recovered one of my 58 RBs from a deer that I shot. Plenty of exit wound, entrance wound and a .58 channel connecting them. You'll like the .58, mine is my favorite hammer gun. Good luck, 10 ga

[RBak]

Good posts, Rick and 10ga....that's what I like to read, the real "red meat" of the subject matter!

My 1861 Colt in .58 has killed several Deer, two Bull Elk, and two Cow Elk, most of this was using a .570 round ball and pillow-tic patch, over 80gr Goex FFFg. One of the Bulls, a young Spike with rather impressive eye-guards, was shot with a Lyman 575213PH at 60 pretty good "paces"....well over fifty, likely closer to 70 yards. And, not surprisingly, that big conical was never found.

I have recovered exactly one (1) round ball, and that was from a brisket shot on a young Cow...which made one ugly mess, to be sure.
But, she was DRT, collapsing on her front legs with her back end still up, before finally just falling over on her side. I thought she was going to get up and run and I was hurrying my reloading so fast I fumbled two, yep two balls before I got one over the patch and got it started. Excitement runs high when you think that animal is going to jump right back up!:???:

Now, having said that, I must say the Colt has a 1:77 progressive, or gain twist, if I remember correctly, and the T/C Big Boar has a definite 1:48 twist.
Still yet, this twist will do you right if you do your part.

I have always heard, though I have never personally seen this happen, or had it happen to me, that you can strip the patch with too heavy a load in a 1:48. Not sure this is fact, but I have kinda avoided heavy hoads in the faster twists when shooting round ball.
With that in mind I have never exceeded 95gr FFFg Goex in the Big Boar rifle, and it shot just fine with a round ball...albeit a bit stiff on my end....Not so sure I would want to shoot this load on a regular basis.

My right arm / elbow seems a little better today, still very colorful but I do believe I can move it with less pain. Three hot packs a day for 30 minute each, just like the Doc said.
I can almost smell that black powder again, or maybe it's just me I'm smelling, as I can't let the shower hit me on that right side. :roll:

Russ

[roverboy]

I've got a H&R Huntsman .58 that I've got to get some work done on before I can shoot it. I got a great deal on it but, it was stored in a damp trailer with other stuff and the firing pin is ceased up. If i can get it going I'm gonna try patched round balls with 70-90 gr. Goex. Back on the subject though. I've shot sabots in a couple different .50 cal. rifles and they sometimes work good. Don't use lighter bullets like 180-200 gr. I've now been shooting Maxi-Hunters 350 gr. just to see how they do.

[slamminsammy]

My T.C. BIG BOAR seems to like about everything i have shot in it except the 560gr. maxi-hunters. The 555gr. maxi-balls shoot real well with 90gr. of Goex FFF and homemade wonder wad. This load is like hittin'em with a Mack truck! The Lee 440gr. REAL bullets work well too at about 70gr. of FFF if i remember right? The Hornady 525gr. Great Plains bullet looked very promising but i didnt have enough of them to nail down a load i was happy with? These bullets are hard to find and i have heard they are out of production?

[Omnivore]

RBak; It looks like Rick and 10ga and others have it. The 45 cal bullets of similar weight have a much better BC than a full caliber bullet. There are pros and cons to that simple fact, but hitting the target is the first priority, and if your shots tend to be longer, and you can't laser every target that strolls by, trajectory of course matters.

I only fired a few sabots in testing when I first got the 50 cal. They were so difficult to load in my gun that I quit them (without further investigation) in favor of the PRB which gave acceptable hunting accuracy anyway. My son and I have killed several deer with the PRB load - .495 ball, .015" lubed patch (very tight) over 110 grains Goex FF from a 24" barrel having a 48" twist. It's killed every deer plenty dead, with one ball hitting from a quartering away angle and penetrating 25". A classic side hit through the heart/lung cavity disrupts the whole mess. A direct hit to the heart blows it wide open. One time I just got the tip of the heart and that carved a nice neat channel. Interestingly, there appears to be little to no significant deformation of the pure lead ball. Entry and exit wounds tend to be very similar.

Most of our kills have been at very close range, with the longest at about 85 yards. Anything past 100 and I'm getting dubious about taking a shot. For me that would be the reason to use a sabot, but so far, just me, I haven't had the incentive.

Probably if I have to pass on a nice buck because it's just out of my comfort range with PRB, I'll change my mind and become an obsessive sabot tester until I find a good load. The little bit we did test them (Hornady bullets and some others) they certainly showed decent promise for accuracy.

[Rick Hodges]

Omnivore,
If you ever try the sabots again look into "MMP" sabots. They made sabots for TC and other companies. The point is they make at least 3 different diameters of sabots. My Omega was very tight until I went to a slightly smaller diameter sabot. Now it is not too bad until I have fired 4 or 5 rds.

I am not pushing saboted rounds. I much prefer my full bore diameter .54 for hunting in close quarters. The sabots do have a place if you have to reach out a ways.