late model Win '94 in .45 Colt. some ?'s

[greywuuf]

I bought myself a 20" trails end " carbine ( that's the 20" tube as compared to the "trapper with a 16") Some years ago as my have in the truck while driving through Canada Gun .. (it made barrel length but unfortunately fired a pistol round so was some problem.. moot point now ) ANYWAY it has not seen near enough use as shooting J word pistol bullets through it seems like a real shame, and I am inclined to think of it as a a heavy hitter, more than a small game gun mostly because it drives pistol bullets to explosive velocities and does a pretty ugly thing to grouse and ptarmigan and is pretty rough on Fox pelts

So i figured I should cast up some slow heavy slugs for it and turned to my LBT WFN at about 290 grains with WDWW. I use those with great success in my Ruger 6 gun. Long story short is they only "kind" work the driving band is to fat and long and the throat on this thing seems kinda short so the bullets get jammed pretty hard into the lands. they fire and don't give any real pressure signs but it takes away from the "slickness" of the handy little carbine a lot.

on reading some here and other places ( especially GearGnashers work with the 45 ) I have decided to have a mold made or buy another mold or something for this and hopefully use it in the Ruger as well. it seems as I have quite a bit more cylinder room in the Ruger, something on the order of a 330 or 340 I have heard mentioned as working well.

Doe s anyone know of a good proven FLAT nose design that works with the throating of the '94's.

Before anyone mentions I should go back to a BP load with 255 RN or something let me state "NOT GONNA HAPPEN" yes I know they were great in the day and the cartridge was not designed for that and if you want a 45 magnum buy a casul ....


I don't HOT ROD the Ruger and I have no desire to blow up my guns I do run them kinda warm and I don't mind down loading them for extended range sessions and "plinking" but this carbine could very well be on my back when I encounter either a Moose in season at close quarters, one hit by a car on the road requiring some finishing, or when I come across the bear I cant bluff while out fishing or doing something else. Same goes for the Ruger. It has in fact been on my hip for Two Bear encounters , both resolved with some shouting and chest puffing, never had to fire it in anger but BIG bullets at moderate velocity just give me a warmer fuzzy than light RN.



Anyone have any luck with the big heavies in the winnie? and thoughts concerns or recommendations?

Dan in Alaska

[felix]

You will not blow up your guns, but the cases instead will be ruined after so many rounds loaded for bear. Read the 45Colt threads. ... felix

[greywuuf]

Cases are considered expendable by the gun makers anyway ... with the way the chambers are oversized without resorting to Geargnashers heavy brass I don't see anyway around over working the brass, now it is just a race to see if the neck splits or if the primer pockets loosen up. I stay pretty low on the Ruger only scale anyway ... I just want a bigger bullet to shoot, I don't need it going all that fast, I currently use about a 300 I have lots of cylinder left, but they are to fat on the driving band and can be problematic in both the 6 gun and the carbine.

[KYCaster]

If I were in that situation, I think I would seriously consider reaming the throat to fit your 300+ gr. boolits.


Jerry

[DanWalker]

Go buy the LEE 300 grainer in the 2 cavity version. Load it over 18.5 grains of 2400. I've punched these through everything from bunnies to wild boars. They work great! I shoot them from a win 94AE trapper.

[G. Blessing]

Go buy the LEE 300 grainer in the 2 cavity version. Load it over 18.5 grains of 2400. I've punched these through everything from bunnies to wild boars. They work great! I shoot them from a win 94AE trapper.

Hey, would you happen to know what velocity your getting from that load?

G.

[DanWalker]

Hey, would you happen to know what velocity your getting from that load?

G.
1450 FPS is what I got last time I shot some over my chrony.

[ktw]

...with the way the chambers are oversized without resorting to Geargnashers heavy brass I don't see anyway around over working the brass,

Load fatter bullets in fireformed or very lightly sized brass.

I have a 45 Colt Trapper that I can finger seat them at .4575 in fireformed brass. I have had better accuracy when loading plain based bullets at that size as well.

Any of the lighter 45-70 bullets should work for this (< 350gr). I have used Lyman 457191, 457122-HP and the Lee 457-340-RF.

-ktw

[greywuuf]

I am apraoching my .45's with renewed interest and am looking into either throating the win, and opening up the Ruger, though I need to recast them both and carefully measure them again. it has been a while since I got a handle on which gun had what dimmensions.

The only problem with a lightly sized ( finger pressure) case is that I load from the mag tube and in the revolvers at some higher end loads and I am afraid recoil would be a problem with unseating/deep seating bullets

i am also considering retiring my TC sizing die in favor of a cut down 45-70 ( though I have to buy another one as I still shoot a '86 in 45-70 ) to better adress the case issue.

thanks for the advice and suggestions,

[JRR]

This is what I did to fix this issue.

#1 - Get a RCBS steel sizing die, not the carbide. It will mean case lubing, but no big deal with some spray-on lubes. This die will give excellent boolit tension but retain a good case base diameter for a good fit in the chamber, with little slop. TAPERED! Extended case life as well.

#2 - Find a mold that has a front driving band that is approx. .05". This will fit in the Winchester chamber without the crunch fit. .1" front band is rather tight. A nose length of approx. .350"- .375 will work well in the Win. and the Ruger. This is the length between the crimp center and the end of the boolit.

#3 - Don't us magnum primers. A Win. large pistol primer is perfect.

#4 - If you want full snot loads, use H110/296 in the 22-24 gr. area. These are very difficult recoil wise at the bench. Powders like 2400, wc820, VV n110, ACC 9 are very good for performance without the full kick to the shoulder. Velocity of 1400-1500 fps. 17-19 grs.

#5 - Oh yes, boolit weight of approx. 285 gr. +/-.

This info was created using a Ruger Bisley and a Win. 94 with a 16 in. barrel.

It is possible to get a solid 1700-1800 fps in the Win using H110/296. I just can't stand shooting them from the bench with a 5.5 lb. carbine. I'm a wimp!

Jeff

[greywuuf]

yeah! that cute little pistol caliber carbine (with a smallish solid butt) can whack the Snot right out of you (or at least deliver a sharp rap that you were NOT expecting from a pistol round ) . been there done that. the 250 flying ashtray j word hollow points are quite fun to shoot though! just way to expensive for plinking and a little to fragile for game.

Thanks for the load info ! I went ahead and got one of the MiHec 45 'ruger only" solids on the way.

[TXGunNut]

Great thread, greywuuf. Looking forward to the range report. My .45 Trapper just came out of the safe for a photo op, too good a gun for a safe queen.

[w30wcf]

....."So i figured I should cast up some slow heavy slugs for it"......

I have found that a minimum of 1,300 f.p.s. is required to stabilize a 350 gr bullet
(457192) in a 38" twist. I don't know if you consider that "slow".

I have been neck sizing my 45 colt brass for many years and have lost no cases to sidewall failure.

Have you tried seating your LBT bullets deeper and crimping over the forward driving band?

w30wcf

[felix]

The real key is in monitoring case/chamber relations by paying attention to primer seating pressure from one reload to the next. ... felix

[greywuuf]

w30wfc,
Good point, I guess slow is relative, i know the 200 grain " flying ashtray" is relatively a varmit load in this thing and though I dont have my load notes in front of me I did wing em over the sky screens and remeber them being closer to 2000 than 1,000 fps. I have never tried Very heavy as the 300's i have are right on the edge of chambering, I guess we will see if the 330's I have on order work or not. if it proves to not like heavyweights I might just be forced to rebarrel it, as I have been thinking I want a take down anyway, be an excuse to give it a tighter chamber a faster twist and a longer throat. Heck I have run some 50 AE necked down to 45 through the action and though about chambering to that at one time......its dark here in the winter and I tend to have to many weird idea's ( I went as far as to have a reamer print made for the 45-50 AE, if I recall I even gave it a catchy name the 45 Arctic Express Carbine )

[Gunnut 45/454]

I run the Lee 300 gr WFN's at 1548 fps with 22.5 gr of H110 out of my Trails End. That's my poor mans 45-70 load! Very accurate out the Win 94.

[G. Blessing]

1450 FPS is what I got last time I shot some over my chrony.
niiiice! I'll have to try that load soon.

[ktw]

I have found that a minimum of 1,300 f.p.s. is required to stabilize a 350 gr bullet
(457192) in a 38" twist. I don't know if you consider that "slow".


Not all of the Winchester 94's in 45 Colt have that slow of a twist. I understand that the early ones did, but the 2000 vintage Trapper I have measures out at a faster 1 in 26".

I try to keep the 300-350 grain loads somewhere in the range of 1200-1450 fps, wherever they shoot the best. Taking them past 1500 fps starts to loosen your dental fillings in a carbine that light.

-ktw