Paper Patching

[6pt-sika]

How difficult is paper patching ?

Or shall I say how long would it normally take the average person to get decent at it ?

Not talking about getting decent paper patch loads . I mean the actual art of rolling the pliable paper around the lead slug.And having it come out looking good .

[45 2.1]

How difficult is paper patching ?

Or shall I say how long would it normally take the average person to get decent at it ?

Not talking about getting decent paper patch loads . I mean the actual art of rolling the pliable paper around the lead slug.And having it come out looking good .

If you have any manual dexterity at all, you should not have too much trouble. Pick the right paper and getting it sized correctly will be more difficult than rolling the patch.

[powderburnerr]

about 10 minutes .. it is a simple process put the bullet on the patch, square the edges and roll until tight then twist a base and you are done

[kodiak1]

What ol' powderburner sxaid X2.
I learned anyone can learn.
Ken.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

60 Rounds of 577-450. The boolit is the Lee 458-405F and over the patch diameter (20 lb bond) it's .470" for my MkIV.

If your patches are cut, it takes about as long to patch a slug as it takes to cast a boolit in a SC mould.

.................Buckshot

[MT Chambers]

There are some tricks to it, roll on patch in same direction as barrel twist, retwist tail after 15 min., cut after 12-24 hrs., use cotton fibre paper, make a template and retain it, roll twice, use paper thickness x4 plus bullet dia. to makeup your proper bore dia., use god given binding agent(lots of saliva), none of this is new..just a primer for new buffler hunters starting out!!

[powderburnerr]

it is simplest to wrap them as you load them . wrap them dry and cut the patch narrow enough to just fold over the base . twist them tight and place in cartridge case . ... the wrap direction is not a critical factor with proper sized bullets . ..
I wrap mine with either hand and find no difference at the target .. at the muzzle maybe bigger chunks of confetti.
I cut patches with a guillotine paper cutter . use 1 inch strips and use a 35 degree end cut .. which isnt critical either ,
I use the same 1 inch strip for 500 gn 45's 565 gn 45 and up to 700 gn 50 s .

I just keep enough to bend over the base . 1/16 th with the 565 and 1/4 or so with the 500 .
this works with either hollow base bullets or flat base bullets .

[SharpsShooter]

I am working with the dry patch also. It is not too tough to patch em up and I believe they will shoot fine. I am not the most nimble fingered sort, but can do a good job on them.

SS

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/PPLoaded.jpg

Just wanted to add that powderburnerr taught me how to patch these through some simple written instructions and one completed boolit for a example.

[joeb33050]

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

60 Rounds of 577-450. The boolit is the Lee 458-405F and over the patch diameter (20 lb bond) it's .470" for my MkIV.

If your patches are cut, it takes about as long to patch a slug as it takes to cast a boolit in a SC mould.

.................Buckshot

I need a short piece on paper patching to make a small bullet fit a bigger barrel. That's what this is about, as near a I can see. Would you write a bit more about how you do it and how it works at the target?
Thanks;
joe b.

[Scrounger]

Joe B, you might want to check out this link: http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html

[John Boy]

This is the best PP article that I have found on the Internet - 11 pages of instructions:
http://rceco.com/img/RSBook4.PDF

And forget about using the 9# - 25% cotton airmail paper ... Southworth doesn't make it anymore. So 20# - 25% paper is the best that can be bought.

[powderburnerr]

7#,8#,9# 25% and 100% cotton rag is still available from a number of places ..
Dean

[Marlin Junky]

Should the unpatched boolit be .001" over bore diameter, or what?

Also, would it be feasible to run a SAECO 352 cast of stick-on WW metal through a bore diameter Lee push-through die to create a patchable boolit?

I've decided to try shooting paper patched boolits from my '51 vintage 336A in .35 Remington.

MJ

[45 2.1]

Should the unpatched boolit be .001" over bore diameter, or what?

Also, would it be feasible to run a SAECO 352 cast of stick-on WW metal through a bore diameter Lee push-through die to create a patchable boolit?

I've decided to try shooting paper patched boolits from my '51 vintage 336A in .35 Remington.

MJ

In general that is a good rule, but what you really want is the patched slug to be about 0.0005" under the throat diameter.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Just by going through this thread you can pick up all you need to know. Explore opposite ideas, for example, wet vs. dry patching, a variety of lubes on the patch, or patch thicknesses. Its a simple enough technology that many things work well. I have my own observation: ACCURACY WILL BE NO DIFFERENT than with naked bullets, all care being taken.

[Marlin Junky]

...but what you really want is the patched slug to be about 0.0005" under the throat diameter.

45 2.1,

Even if the throat is slightly wider than groove diameter?

MJ

[Buckshot]

..............Your boolit can be bore, slightly under bore or slightly overbore, before paper patching. If using smokless the dried over the patch OD has to be groove, or groove +.

Possible diameters are almost limitless as you can size the naked lead boolit before patching to some size, by paper selection (thickness), and by also final sizing of the completed patched boolit.

So far as paper goes, most any paper that is tough enough to be wrapped on a boolit (and it should be streatched as it's wrapped) will suffice. I do not recommend recycled paper. I've used regular typing paper, lined computer report paper, and the more noble writting papers. I also picked up som drafting vellum but haven't used any of it yet.

I was in a Staples store the other day and just for fun I picked up a package of 100 sheets of 20lb 100% cotton. The cost was $8 something. That was the lightest they had and asking about 9lb airmail or onionskin got me a confused look from the clerk.

I like 9% airmail onionskin which is 25% cotton. It's right at .002" thick and when dry adds .007" to the boolit's OD. This is excellent for most any rifle having the standard .004" deep grooves. Take your regular 45 cal rifle boolit, and run it up through a Lee .452" nose first sizer, then paper patch it and it will come in at
.459" which is just right.

..............Buckshot

[Marlin Junky]

Buckshot,

I think the 9#, 25% cotton onion skin was Paul Matthews' favorite.

How do you suppose it would work out if I were to run SAECO 352's cast from stick-on WW metal through a custom Lee push-through die reducing the boolit's driving bands about .008" +/- .0005"?

I'm just dinkin' around now but if I can get 3MOA out of cobbled together paper patched .35 Rem ammo, I'd probably run out and order a mold specifically for paper patched .35's and a paper cutter ala P. Matthews' book.

MJ

[45 2.1]

Even if the throat is slightly wider than groove diameter?
Yes


I'm just dinkin' around now but if I can get 3MOA out of cobbled together paper patched .35 Rem ammo, I'd probably run out and order a mold specifically for paper patched .35's and a paper cutter ala P. Matthews' book.
Get a 180 or heavier PB cast very soft, size in a LEE push thru and patch it up. Length of patch along boolit should be enough to engrave the patch into the throat medium hard. No boolit jump can be tolerated with PP. This method will produce extremely good accuracy when done correctly.

[Marlin Junky]

45 2.1,

How 'bout Lyman 358430?

MJ

[45 2.1]

45 2.1,

How 'bout Lyman 358430?

MJ

It has a long bearing surface, probably to long to let you seat the patched boolit at the base of the neck. Take a jacketed bullet and seat it backwards in a fired case neck that you've pinched to hold the bullet and seat in your rifle. Extract and measure the distance from the jacketed bullet base at the front end of the cartridge to the base of the cartridge neck. This is the bearing length of the boolit that you want. The 36-180-PB boolit that Boomer Mikey ran would probably be close to what you want. The Saeco 180 RF would be another. A RF ogive is what you want for this.

[Marlin Junky]

I don't understand why bearing length of the original cast boolit is an issue. The sized boolit will be approximately bore diameter and the length of the patch can vary based on throat length.

MJ

[45 2.1]

I don't understand why bearing length of the original cast boolit is an issue. The sized boolit will be approximately bore diameter and the length of the patch can vary based on throat length.

MJ

Soft boolits upset, you want the patch forward of any part of the bearing that will upset. Don't believe me? Try it and find out.

[Marlin Junky]

Soft boolits upset, you want the patch forward of any part of the bearing that will upset. Don't believe me? Try it and find out.

It's not a matter of believing or not believing, it's a matter of understanding what you're trying to communicate. I think I understand now... the leading edge of the patch needs to come right up to the commencement of the ogive?

What's wrong with SAECO 352... just the GC shank? I would think that after push through sizing to .350"-.351" there wouldn't be much shank remaining.

I've got SAECO 354 which is the GC version of 353 (I think that's the one you mean by 180 RF). Again, it's GC'd but most of the GC shank will probably be wiped away by sizing down to .351".

MJ

[45 2.1]

Try them, that is the best way to find out.

[Marlin Junky]

45 2.1,

Can the heal of a PP boolit be below the cartridge case neck when fully seated and still shoot accurately? If not, I'd better try SAECO 354 first.

MJ

[45 2.1]

45 2.1,

Can the heal of a PP boolit be below the cartridge case neck when fully seated and still shoot accurately? If not, I'd better try SAECO 354 first.

MJ

It some cases it works out. It really depends on what your trying to do with the load. Slower powder is good in this respect.

[Buckshot]

45 2.1,

Can the heal of a PP boolit be below the cartridge case neck when fully seated and still shoot accurately? If not, I'd better try SAECO 354 first.

MJ

I personally can't answer that question. Maybe someone else can? I've mainly patched 45 cal rifle boolits. I've also patched 58 cal Minie' boolits and even some 30 cals. The 45 cal boolits were used in cases without any necks, the 58's were in a ML'er. The 30's? Those were shot out of a M91/30 M-N I got from SOG many. many moons ago from SOG for $39. I don't recall the lsugs being seated deeply enough to have been below the caseneck.

It is a Finn pickup. SA marked, finger grooved 2 piece stock, and a counterbored muzzle. Nothing I'd tried in it at the time would shoot worth a tinker's dam. I decided to patch up some Lyman 311294's. These ended up at about .318". After they were patched and lubed with Lee LA I sized them to .316" and shot them over my regular 23.0 H4198 + dacron load.

I'm happy to say they shot wonderfully. On a par with some of the best loads, cast OR jacketed ever shot from ANY iron sighted milsurp by me. I have the notes and target at home and haven't looked at it in years.

The thing is, I didn't feel it was worthwhile spending the time patching up 30 cal slugs. After doing 45's, a 30 cal is absolutely tiny! BTW, since these were a GC design I'd seated a GC on'em before patching. I did the same with Lee C457-500F's. Put the GC on before patching, that is.

A thing to be sure of in any rifle is to make sure the leading edge of the patch is protected from getting peeled up or damaged. Some PP designs have a groove like a crimp groove, but it's to put the leading edge of the patch into. At a minimum the patch should reach to just past the turn of the ogive.

.................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Marlin Junky--

I have PP'ed Lyman #358430 (195 grain version) to .367" or so for my 9.3 x 62, using 9# airmail paper. These shot VERY well for me.

45-2.1, your advisement about zero boolit jump when using PP boolits might explain why a few of my PP ventures went south with malice aforethought. Good point that I didn't pay attention to initially.

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin Junky--

I have PP'ed Lyman #358430 (195 grain version) to .367" or so for my 9.3 x 62, using 9# airmail paper. These shot VERY well for me.

Deputy Al,

The 9.3x62 has a very short neck; shorter than the .35 Remington. Assuming your 9.3x62 has a short throat as well, the heal of your patched 358430 must have been below the neck/shoulder junction. Is this correct? Oh yeah, one other thing... did you cast 'em soft and shoot 'em hard?

MJ

[4060MAY]

a good thread on paper patch

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8528&sid=10e5f4c555ddb99bed13c3151f70a259

[zeprin]

Hey, feller's..........!
I figer if we order everything else off of the net...
Why not paper?

http://www.thepapermillstore.com/product.php?productid=9304

z:-D

[Bob B]

When I read on the web about the price of gas checks going up I decided to learn to use paper patches instead of buying gaschecks.I started out patching 5 bullets a night using 25 per cent cotton fiber paper and the lyman bullet301618 cast of ww metal.I can now pp over 60 bullets an hour and gaining speed although I doubt if I will ever obtain the speed of 12000 per day credited to the ladies working inthe factories that sold the paper patched bullets.I have pp the regular bullet made to use with gas checks by sizing to .308 then pp with onion skin paper and sizing in.312 sizer and lubing with alox.Bullets pp this way shoot as well as when gas checked.I have also used computer copy paper to patchthese bullets with,they shoot well at midrange velocities but I never tried using the bullets patched with copy paper at the higher velocity of a hunting load.Bob B