Custom reamer for 629, worth it?

[HDS]

Long story short, my 629-5 leads and it leads a lot when shooting cast bullets. Measuring the throats and groove diameter shows that the chambers are the same size, or smaller than the groove diameter which is .4287" according to a v-anvil micrometer reading.

And to get around any possible misreading or misuse of my tools on my part I made sure by trying to get a .429" calibrated lead bullet through my cylinder throats. That did not work out so well, a lot of force was required.

I'm thinking of having the throats reamed as I plan to shoot 100% cast through this gun, however I read in Glen Fryxells book on casting that the optimal difference is .001" or so and that if the difference between throats and barrel is too large then accuracy will suffer just as much as with too small throats.

That lead me to believe that a .430 or maybe .4305" reamer would be more suited than the .431" reamers out there. But I am not sure, maybe a .002" to .0025" is not a big deal and I am over thinking this whole thing? I believe the book stated that it was a problem when it got to be around .004" over groove diameter.

So any thoughts? Should I just get the .431" kit from Brownells?

Might as well throw in a pic of the gun:
http://i50.tinypic.com/23h8xls.jpg

[GabbyM]

Before you start making chips.

You can't push a .429 pin in a .429" bore without a press or hammer. That's a "press fit". What did the slug measure after you pushed it through the throat? How much force is “a lot”?

Personally I'd not even consider reaming them over .430" when you have a bore tight of .429".

Also I’d be surprised if your leading issue is caused from throat diameter to bore fit. If a .427” pin was snug in the throat then you may have an issue. More than likely you just need a different lube.

Another thing is once you get a gun leaded up it’s tricky to get it clean. You may think it’s clean. If you ran a .429” reamer through the cylinder you may be surprised to see lead shavings. Usually after a good cleaning with oooo steel wool and solvent about a dozen gas checked bullets with some good lube will finish cleaning them up.

You may be on he right tract but I wanted to point out other options and possibilities.

[subsonic]

Cool gun. If you are handy you can use a split steel rod and abrasive/crocus cloth chucked in a drill to open the throats to whatever dimension you want. The less you have to remove, the more likely you'll end up with everything straight and true. If the abrasive roll ever slides out of the front of the cylinder more than half way, stop the drill, back the whole thing up and start over to avoid rounding the front of the throats.

[subsonic]

Also, you could have a restriction in the bore where the barrel is screwed in from thread choke. This would make your result from slugging artificially small and can cause leading ahead of it. This can be firelapped out. The first thing I would do is run 6-12 lapping round through it and see if the leading goes away.

[Larry Gibson]

I would also not go .431. If reaming is really necessary I would go .429. However, I have to agree 100% with Gabby, leading is more an issue with alloy, lube and load.

What alloy and lube are you using?

What are you sizing your cast bullets.

Whay load are you using with said cast bullets?

Larry Gibson

[HDS]

I would rather not firelap. I've heard bad things about it, that is a procedure I am more wary of than reaming, what I read in Glens book really scared me about it.

Anyhoo, I've tried a whole bunch of bought bullets with different lubes and alloys. I've cast my own as well and calibrated to anything from .430" to .432". I've used the hard lubes that come on bought bullets, I've coated said bullets in lee alox lube, I've used just lee alox on my own cast and I've tried the NRA lube and a combo of that and the Lee alox as well. Its all the same.

My throats where gauged to be .429" by slugging, I used a micrometer for that and I cleaned the throats with a solvent and used a bronze brush connected to a drill to get it good and clean. To verify I tried to push a lead ball I slugged through the barrel and it wouldn't go through the throats so it might be that my micrometer check is on the generous side. I suppose it could be tight only around where the barrel is screwed in but it doesn't really feel like that when I hammer it through.

I also don't really see why it would work with a .429" bullet if a .430" one won't. I have some though, with gas checks that I have not yet used. Though if I have to use gas checks to feed this gun that would just mean there is something wrong with the gun that the gas check manages to hide.


I was given to understand the 629-5 is the gun when they sized down the throats for optimization with jacketed rounds and ironically I would be happy never to shoot another jacketed round through this gun. All the data I can see says for cast bullets your throats should be .0005 or .001" larger than your groove diameter or you will 99% likely suffer from leading issues.

[HDS]

I just had another idea, I took those .429" GC bullets and measured them, unslugged says .429" and slugged says .428"

EDIT: Infact now that I am checking I am seeing that some throats seem tighter than others, I was able to push one bullet through with my fingers almost, while another that wasn't possble. I slugged them checked them and one said .428 and the other .4275", so it would appear I might have differing throats too.

Rounding it all to .430" seems like a sensible idea ATM, or maybe .4295" would be an idea if I am going for a custom set anyway?

[Larry Gibson]

What powder and charge?

Larry Gibson

[HDS]

What powder and charge?

Larry Gibson

Various loads using Vihtavuori N32C, N320 and N110, charges ranging from really soft .44spl level loads to magnum loads up to 1400FPS.

[MtGun44]

"can't push a .429 pin in a .429 hole". Yes, this is exactly what you do if the pin is a minus
pin gage. They are sized .0002" smaller than marked so that they will just barely go into the
hole size that they are marked.

I'd go for throats the same or .001 larger than groove diameter rounded to nearest .001"
as a general rule. Ream to .001 smaller than final desired and polish to final diameter.

MANY, MANY S&Ws (most?) have a bore constriction in the frame threads. If you have a smith
remove the barrel and reset it without the extreme interferences "crush fit" that S&W uses,
and lock it with red locktite, this will eliminate the tight spot without doing anything to the
inside of the barrel. Basically the barrel shoulder is faced off a HAIR and then the barrel set
to just snug up when clocked properly, or even a hair past. Clock correctly and use red locktite
and it will be fine, from experience. Try driving a soft slug 1/3 in from muzzle and then
push back out (very hard to do!) vs one driven all the way through - this will tell you if you have
a tight spot that you may not be feeling.

Bill

[HDS]

Looking through the bore with a light I can see leading smears start immediately when the forcing cone stops and bore begins. If that helps indicate if this is a matter of barrel constriction or small throats. I've heard some say you can just shoot a constriction out with enough rounds of jacketed ammo?

Heck maybe its both, at any rate I don't think my gun is helped with having chambers of differing sizes.

EDIT: I took a picture to indicate, this is followed by streaks following the rifling:
http://i53.tinypic.com/v4wc1w.jpg

[HDS]

I'd go for throats the same or .001 larger than groove diameter rounded to nearest .001"
as a general rule. Ream to .001 smaller than final desired and polish to final diameter.

Could you tell me more about the polishing method BTW?

[subsonic]

This is not a S&W, but the same techniques can be used:

http://www.castbullet.com/misc/accrsa.htm

[HDS]

Is it really just that easy, dovel, sandpaper and drill? Isn't there a risk of getting something out of round or something like that?

[nicholst55]

Is it really just that easy, dovel, sandpaper and drill? Isn't there a risk of getting something out of round or something like that?

Almost guaranteed, I'd say.

[tek4260]

Use the proper reamer and there is no chance of screwing the job up. Manson makes the reamer and pilots. Once you are done with it, you can sell it here in the classifieds for nearly what you paid for it in about 1 hr.

Then do this:

http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

[harvester]

Besides leading, how does the gun shoot otherwise?

[subsonic]

I have done two guns with the split rod and paper. Both shoot more accurately and do not lead now. If you go slow and pay Attention the existing throats will guide you. If you're only removing .001" or less, you can only get them out of alignment be .0005", which they may be already from the factory. Just go slow and only take out enough so that they are all the same and your .429" boolit can be pushed through. If I were you I would purchase a micrometer and pin gauges to verify your work - these are likely to cost less than the reamer and be more useful.

If you only go to .429", you can always use a .430" reamer later if you don't like the results.

If you use the split rod, let it self center and do not force it to the side. Move it back and forth while spinning it, but don't let it more than about 1/3rd of the way out of the front of the cylinder to avoid rounding the edge. Insert it from the chamber side after removing the cylinder.
The screw on the right side of the gun under the cylinder window should allow you to remove the cylinder and crane. I suggest removing it before driving slugs or stu k boolits out of a bore too to protect the crane from bending forces while not supported.

[MtGun44]

Split dowel and paper. I use 280 grit initially (black 3 M silicon carbide 'Wet or Dry'). Out of
round?? We are polishing off .001" or less. If you some magical way polished all on one
spot and none on another spot, you could get UP TO .001 out of round. Keep the dowel
reasonably close to the working diameter, move it back and forth smoothly, avoid wallowing out
the front by letting the paper move much out of the mouth and it will be fine. This is
POLISHING out the reamer marks, not changing things much. After things are looking pretty
smooth, I switch to 360 grit, then 400, then final polish with 600 for a bit.

Bill

[HDS]

Use the proper reamer and there is no chance of screwing the job up. Manson makes the reamer and pilots. Once you are done with it, you can sell it here in the classifieds for nearly what you paid for it in about 1 hr.

Then do this:

http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

If I do that afterwards won't I open up the throats even more?

I've been researching fire lapping and I saw a method that seems more likely to work the way I want it, namely applying the lapping solution into the barrel where you want it and then shooting a bullet without any lapping solution through it.

Reaming to .4295" or maybe. 430" followed by that variation of fire lapping is looking like it might do the trick.

[HDS]

Besides leading, how does the gun shoot otherwise?

Poorly with cast, pretty well with jacketed.

[HDS]

If I were you I would purchase a micrometer and pin gauges to verify your work - these are likely to cost less than the reamer and be more useful.

Anyone know where I can get some pin gauges? I've never seen a pin gauge kit in Finland, as usual, if it's useful and I could use it then I will have to buy online. I would prefer to buy only the pins I want, and not entire kits, the shipping on a kit is like a hundred dollars and up.

[tek4260]

Well if you go oversize, you will get this. The left group it with throats that were a bit oversize. The right group is with proper size throats. The 25 yard groups were shot back to back. This revolver was also firelapped using the method in the like from earlier.

.454 vs .452 throats

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0214.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1359565

YMMV, ect.

[PacMan]

tek4260 what size bullets did you fire thru. the .454 throats?

[MtGun44]

Somebody has posted a source of single gage pins, but I don't know who it is. Seems like
each was about $2 or $3, not too bad, especially if shipping to Finland.

Bill

[HDS]

Well if you go oversize, you will get this. The left group it with throats that were a bit oversize. The right group is with proper size throats. The 25 yard groups were shot back to back. This revolver was also firelapped using the method in the like from earlier.

.454 vs .452 throats

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0214.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1359565

YMMV, ect.

So how did you get the throats fixed? New cylinder?

[GabbyM]

Just use the barrel slugs for gage pins.
Or.
From the measurements you’ve given. I’d use a .4290” or .4295” chucking reamer. To even out the dimensions. Have a machinist run it on a mill or drill press.

I am a machinist. I’d feel comfortable hand reaming cylinders but that would not be my first choice and armatures saying you can’t make a mess of a cylinder with a hand tuned reamer just have not scraped enough parts in that way. We have simple hand crank presses for hand reaming and hand tapping. Any of you ammeters who want to say what good work you do by hand haven’t had me take those cylinders into my gage room for inspection. Not saying you can’t improve upon the factory work. Just saying that 5% of what you do is mostly scrap work. While the factory probably turns out 20% scrap.

Most of your internet experts simply sell there scrap to unknowing buyers. Then I get it to fix from sad faced chumps. Sometimes I just look in the mirror to see the chump.

A lapping hone can produce an extremely fine finish bore. But I’d never consider running one in a hand held drill. I don’t have a drill press here at the house but I know people who do.

[HDS]

There is a smith that says he had an adjustable reamer, he's on the other side of the country so I'd have to mail him my gun or just cylinder. I don't know exactly what that is?

The local smith said I should take a drill and something to wrap steel wool around and goto town. I didn't really feel that seemed like proper work.


Edit:
Still if putting one of these chucking reamers in a lathe or mill or drill press I suppose I could just buy one of those and give them to a gunsmith, hard to mess up if I understand you? Any recommended brands of reamer, be nice if I could just buy one online.

[tek4260]

HDS, yes it was a new cylinder. I asked for one over on Rugerforum.com and someone sold it to me for $55 shipped. It was too long(good thing) and I shortened the oal. No endshake now and it closed the B/C gap considerably.

Dwight, I am 95% sure those were .454 or so. I shot both sized .452 and unsized thru it trying to get some accuracy. See the lube stuck to the left target. That is what happens when you try to pass a 300gr .454 into a .451 bore with 24gr of H-110. The lube is mashed off and leaves a ring on the end of the brass and bits get blown onto the target. Leaves the bore leaded and is inaccurate as you can see. The old oversized boolit in oversize throat trick doesn't work at Ruger only levels.

HDS, the reamer is sold by Brownells and I believe it is a Manson off the top of my head. The reamer is turned by hand. You buy the pilots and use the one that is closest to your throat size. Then you cut the head off a piece of brass and slide the "sleeve" over the reamer to support the rear of it in the chamber area of the cylinder. Use a drill press chuck(chuck only, not mounted in press) to turn the reamer by hand. A T-handle can be used as well. You are only shaving a few thousandths off. It honestly takes less than 10 minutes to do it. After every hole, brush the shavings from the flutes of the reamer, apply cutting fluid and cut the next hole, repeat.

[tek4260]

http://www.gunblast.com/Brownells_Reamer.htm


http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=92838&sid=6852ef44a4da8b3026a6c395d3af2b57

See pics of page 4

[HDS]

Yeah I've looked at those before. There have been many suggestions of different approaches that I am starting to have a hard time deciding whats the best choice for my situation.

[EDK]

..............I've been researching fire lapping and I saw a method that seems more likely to work the way I want it, namely applying the lapping solution into the barrel where you want it and then shooting a bullet without any lapping solution through it.

Reaming to .4295" or maybe. 430" followed by that variation of fire lapping is looking like it might do the trick.

I've been applying some 320 grit CLOVER lapping compound in the forcing cone of the guns I'm getting ready to shoot at my private range downhill from the house. The leading like you show in the forcing cone is pretty well gone after three applications. 44 Original Size VAQUEROS, boolits sized to .432/.433, and current loads are 7.5 HERCO with MIHEC 503 and hollow base wadcutter, lubed with either 50/50 or carnuba red. (The carnuba red is good stuff, but having to warm the STAR to use it is a PITA. 50/50 can be used immediately. I want to "multi-task" while waiting for the lead to melt.")

Since I'm casting/loading for about 20 RUGER or S&W revolvers and 4 MARLIN rifles, I load pretty generic ammo for target, plinking, etc.

:redneck::cbpour::Fire:

[MtGun44]

Do you have access to a drill press? If so the brass lap from MSC is cheap, easy to use and
works slowly and accurately. You can easily do this yourself if you will work slowly and
carefully with a lap in a drill press and handhold the cylinder to let it float to proper
alignment.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNSRIT2?PMAKA=05060280&PMPXNO=1738494

If you have acess to a really good drill press or a milling machine, here is how I did mine
for cheap.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=12464

Bill

[HDS]

I know a gunsmith with a milling machine. How long does the project take?

[tek4260]

I can't believe I forgot the obvious!

http://www.cylindersmith.com/

He did my first 2 and is top notch. Also, if you had sent your cylinder to him when this thread started, you would have it back by about tomorrow for the lofty sum of $42 shipping included.

[HDS]

Not possible for me since I am in Finland. Known about cylindersmith a good while and I would've loved to be able to just send it there.

[GabbyM]

Description: HSS Straight Flute Special Decimal Size Straight Shank Chucking Reamers Size: 0.4290 In. Material: HSS Flute Type: Straight Shank Type: Straight $41.53

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNSRIT2?PMAKA=72034291&PMPXNO=2049057&cm_re=ItemDetail-_-ResultListing-_-SearchResults


Through Hole Laps

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNSRIT2?PMAKA=05060264&PMPXNO=1738493&cm_re=ItemDetail-_-ResultListing-_-SearchResults
$10.05

[MtGun44]

If your gunsmith reads English - have him read my old thread and look at the pictures. Any good gunsmith should understand it easily. If no English, you can translate to him - which may
take some time due to specialized words of guns and machine work not necessarily being
clear sometimes when translated. If there are questions - please ask! I used a friend's
mill because he is an expert tool and die maker, and while I have the mill - I am a beginner
with setups and thinking through exactly the best way to do things. He came up with the
idea to let the cylinder float to center it self under the reamer. A machinist should have
guage pins, but I would imagine that they are metric, which could be a problem.

Half an hour or less will do the reaming with a straight reamer, assuming that the gunsmith has
a suitabley sized V block and mill vise - which should be the case. Another 1/2 hour or so
polishing with 360 grit silicon carbide paper (or emery cloth), then 400 and 600, but the finer
grits take much less time. Pin guages are VERY useful to see where you are. I did the polishing
with a hand held drill motor with a slotted dowel and oiled silicon carbide sandpaper or dry
emery cloth (sanding cloth), checking the size frequently with the .430 or .429 (as you decide)
gage pin.

Note that the mill table should be verified as perpendicular to the quill by spinning a
dial indicator around by hand - any good machinist knows how to do this and has most
likely already done it. Otherwise, let the V block hold the cyl straight vertical, and let the
mill vise float on a well oiled mill table to self-center. Guide the mill vise by hand, letting
it float slightly to self-align with the reamer.

MAKE SURE YOU REAM .001 UNDER THE FINAL SIZE, so you can polish out the rough
reamer marks. Also - run the new reamer into a scrap steel block with properly sized hole to wear
off the initial sharpening burrs which may make the first hole ream a touch oversized. All the
following holes will be the proper size until the reamer starts to wear out, after many holes.

The lapping process is much slower, but is therefore, much safer. I have not done the lapping
but I expect that you may spend 3-10 minutes per hole with each grit, and may need to start
with 240 grit, then move to 360, then 400 and either quit or go crazy smooth (unnecessary)
with 600 grit. I'd GUESS at least 30 minutes per grit, but I have not done this. I purchased a
7/16" through hole lap for .44 caliber, but have not yet had the occasion to use it.

Bill

[tek4260]

Guess me and Bill are champions of different ways to get the same results :)

I still think my way is easier :bigsmyl2:

Ream em, then do this

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=98924&highlight=reamer
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=108777&highlight=reamer


And don't be surprised for this response when you ask to buy one

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=120074&highlight=reamer

When you are done reaming, by whichever method, firelap to get rid of that tight spot under the threads as well. Read that firelap article again and try it. The lapping compound embedded boolits cut the most at the rear of the barrel and cut less as the compound is used up as it rides down the bore. So the most aggressive cut will be right at your tight spot. I would be scared to glob lapping compound on the forcing cone and shoot. The better way is to roll the boolits between steel plates to embed them.

I didn't take the time to see that you were overseas. I glanced and saw west coast and assumed CA. :oops:

[HDS]

I got a hold of the local finnish S&W service rep now. He says he can ream the throats for me, and he should have all the proper equipment. But he would like me to send some examples of the bullet I will be shooting in it, so he can ream the throats to be a little larger. I shoot the NOE 429421 which I calibrate to .430" so I get the idea he'd probably make them a tiny bit above that if he had his way, but how much?

I am not sure about that though. I feel I'd rather have the size of my throats set relative to the groove diameter of my gun instead.

I remember reading something about the throat to bullet size difference but I cannot remember is the throat was supposed to be .0005" larger or smaller than the bullet.

[subsonic]

Back to pin gauges...

An original thought I had was to push the center post out of your lubrisizer die. Instant pin gauge! Just mic it to see what you have. My .359" Lyman die center measures .3573" I'd guess your .430" die would have a center pin real close to .429" If you have a few sizer dies, you have a few pin gauges... Sizer dies can serve double duty! The pins are easier to push out and put in if the die is warm.

[PacMan]

Not sure if you got this info. already but here is a source for single pin gages. Only hitch is you have to buy at least 20.00 worth for them to ship.
GO to Gageshop.com

[MtGun44]

NOT a little larger!! This is wrong for cast!! The same size or .001 smaller than the diam of
cast you will be using. Too large a throat is the killer for accuracy, and you will wind up
looking for a bigger than normal mold to make it fit you now TOO BIG throats.

Ideal dimensions are throats about .001 larger than the groove diameter and the boolit
the same or .001 larger than the throats.

IMO just because some guy is the S&W rep, does NOT make him any kind of an expert on
the proper dimensions for throats, boolit fit, etc. You will get better advise here than
most "experts" out wandering around, regardless of their job title. Unless he has had
a lot of experience shooting cast, he probably has little or no idea what it is all about.
Why do you think you got the dimensions you got from the factory? Because they don't
care much or know much about shooting cast - the market is for jacketed bullets and that
is all they know now days.

My bet is you will be better off doing it yourself with a reamer in the mill, and then polishing out
the extra .001, but it is your gun and you know what your skill set is. Just don't let someone
ream the throats oversized, this can't be undone and you can wind up needing to cast to
some large size to get the gun to work well.

Without accurate measurements of the throats (and I didn't see them) I would not ream
anything until I removed the constriction at the threads. Either fire lap or remove the barrel
and reset without the normal "crush fit". A gunsmith will need to have or make a frame wrench
fitted properly to unscrew the frame from the barrel. This can be made with care from oak or
other hard wood for the contoured contact portion. Setting the barrel up in a lathe is a normal
gunsmithing operation and removing the correct amount from the barrel shoulder is fairly easy.
IIRC (measure the threads for the real thing) the thread pitch is 32 threads per inch. If you find
that the barrel shoulder touches the frame about 30 degrees before it is clocked into the correct
postion, you calculate the amount to remove. Each thread advances 1/32 of an inch, which is
0.03125 inch. 30 degrees is 1/12th of a full rotation, so 1/12th of 0.03125 equals 0.0026 inch,
so you should remove about that much from the shoulder, a very light cut. Then screw the barrel
in to check and lock into place with red lock-tite. It will stay and the tight spot will be gone.

I would do this or fire lap before I did anything else unless you are absolutely certain that there
is no tight spot. Without very accurate measurements and careful correction of dimensional issues,
you are just not really "in control". Without slugging the front and then back of the barrel and either
slugging the throats or measurements with pin guages, you are just guessing and that is bad.

Bill

[HDS]

Well I spent some time searching last night on the issue of bullet to throat size and I did find lots of people saying the same; bullets should be a little bit undersized relative to the throat.

These pages here also says the bullet should be undersized relative to the throat:
http://www.castbullet.com/misc/accrsa.htm
http://www.lasc.us/brennan_2-2_bulletdesignfit.htm

So whats the definite answer on this? The gunsmith said if I had a .430" calibrated bullet and a .429" bore, he'd go just above by a very tiny margin, max .4305", probably less. I've read that this is the size ratio in where you can just push a bullet through the cylinder with finger force. Which IIRC is what Elmer Keith thought was proper? I am really confused atm with regards to this ratio since there seems to be two schools of thought.

What the exact measurements of the throats are not known, if slugging is not considered acceptable. In that I only know the throats vary in size and range from .4275 to .4285" based on slugging the throats with Pb balls, while the groove diameter was found to be .429"

My mold casts .434" and I size down to .430" currently.

edit:
The beartooth bullet guys said not to fire lap before fixing the throats btw, it would be useless to fire lap with undersized throats relative to the groove diameter. And that they are undersize is a solid fact, even if I don't know exactly by how much due to whatever uncertainties the slugging process might have.

edit2:
After much googling and searching, maybe it's best to just have it done at .430" and run bullets at the same size. If it turns out an undersize bullet works better I can easily order a .4295" sizing die, or if a bigger bullet works better I can easily open the die up.

[MtGun44]

Trying to split thousands in this game will drive you nuts. No doubt that .0005 oversized is
not a serious problem, but ON SIZE or .001 over has worked best for me. I would suggest
(maybe I would be wrong) that most here with significant revolver experience would council
you to go "on size" rather than any amount undersized.

Best of luck, you have the options, hope you succeed.

Bill

[Ola]

HDS: did you get your revolver fixed?

[Char-Gar]

In my records, I have measurments of have made of about 50 Smith and Wesson 44s of all vintages. I have only found one that went less than .430. My gut reaction is to think your measurment is wrong.

For some reason, when a sixgun leads, the FIRST thing folks think about is doing something to the pistol, when that is the LAST thing that should be considered. Most often the issues will be found in the bullet, alloy, powder or other factors of the load.

You don't start cutting, polishing, reaming or otherwise screwing up a good pistol until you have excluded all other potential source of the problem leading.

[MtGun44]

+1 on changing the ammo before the gun unless there is a very clear serious dimensional issue
found by an experienced measurer using accurate tools.

Bill

[subsonic]

I must be the odd man out here again, as it's a struggle to twist an oiled .429" pin gauge through the throats on my 629-4. I was a bit worried it would get stuck and require hot and cold to get it out.

This gun seems not to know the throats are undersized though. No leading, and while no tackdriver, it is plenty accurate for my intended use of a 4" .44 manglem.

[HDS]

HDS: did you get your revolver fixed?

Hi, it's at the smith right for a while now. He's fixed the throats already he says, but he felt so sorry looking at that barrel S&W and their service people in europe refused to handle that he's gonna try fixing it up a bit, for free. What a great guy. The throats are now all .430" he says.

This is what I mean by my barrel:
http://i.imgur.com/45hNJ.jpg

[HDS]

+1 on changing the ammo before the gun unless there is a very clear serious dimensional issue
found by an experienced measurer using accurate tools.

Bill

Well I've found by measuring slugs driven through the throats as well as using pin gages that the throats are all between .4275-4285" in size (edit: to be precise, the throats where not all the same sizes, verified with Class Z Gage Pins). The gunsmith verified they where below .429" as well, and I've also mailed slugs to two separate people to check. I don't think one can do much more.

[HDS]

In my records, I have measurments of have made of about 50 Smith and Wesson 44s of all vintages. I have only found one that went less than .430. My gut reaction is to think your measurment is wrong.

For some reason, when a sixgun leads, the FIRST thing folks think about is doing something to the pistol, when that is the LAST thing that should be considered. Most often the issues will be found in the bullet, alloy, powder or other factors of the load.

You don't start cutting, polishing, reaming or otherwise screwing up a good pistol until you have excluded all other potential source of the problem leading.

The time between discovering leading and sending it to the smith was 1.5 years, in that time I have tried a number of alloys, bullets (home cast and bought) lubes and powders.

I have also read, not sure if it was on this forum or not, that going by generations, one can see a distinct change by generation -5 in S&W (mine is a 629-5), after this undersized throats are getting much more common. Before that, undersized throats where uncommon in smiths from what I've been told.

As for measurements, see other post.

[Ola]

Hi, it's at the smith right for a while now. He's fixed the throats already he says.. The throats are now all .430" he says.]

Hope you are not in a hurry. Did you know the smith (JJL) blew off one of his fingers? The doctors put it back and it should heal OK but it'll take some time..
..but he felt so sorry looking at that barrel S&W and their service people in europe refused to handle that he's gonna try fixing it up a bit, for free. What a great guy.
This is what I mean by my barrel:
http://i.imgur.com/45hNJ.jpg

Yeah, I know him. A great guy and a true revolver guy also. Only smith in the country to trust with a wheel gun IMO.

Wow, that barrel is bad. But unfortunately that is not the only one I've seen. I gotta ask, what is the smith going to do to it?

[giz189]

Dang, how did he blow his finger off?

[HDS]

Hope you are not in a hurry. Did you know the smith (JJL) blew off one of his fingers? The doctors put it back and it should heal OK but it'll take some time..

Yeah I heard about a while ago, he said he had some accident and almost lost his finger, I didn't know what exactly had happened, I thought maybe it was related to some machine accident.

As for what he is going todo about it... I am not sure, whatever he can I guess. I wanted to just have the throats done first, so I could see if this was going to be a problem or not.

[Ola]

He told me that it was a workaccident, with milling machine or something like that.

I think he will be able to help you with that barrel. He has done quite nice solutions to problems. F.e. have you seen what he did to that Manurhin Long range revolver which had 9 bullets stuck in the barrel? Converted the original barrel to "Dan Wesson -style":

http://www.jjl-custom-guns.com/projektit.htm.
(It's the last one on the list)

[HDS]

Yes I've been to his site and checked it out. I hope he doesn't put too much effort into it, I'd feel a bad if he goes and puts lots of time & effort into it for free.

[Ola]

Are you sure it's free?

[HDS]

Are you sure it's free?

Well not the reaming, I asked for that job and told him not bother with the barrel. Plan was to see if the barrel would still work okay or not before spending money on that procedure too.

When I asked for status update a few days ago, he said he was considering how to best work on the barrel and I reminded him the job was only about the reaming. But he said he knew that and not to worry, this bit would be free of charge. Not the whole job, then.

[Ola]

Just had to ask because he is NOT cheap. Sounds like he is billing the importer. And eventually the importer will get the money from S&W. IMO that would be the right way to correct this kind of failures.

[MtGun44]

Clearly you did do a good job on measuring and had a real issue. Glad to hear of you
making sure of what you had before you 'fixed it'.

I worry about guys that post here who are measuring their throats with a caliper and
then reaming them. I worry that some will be ruining good guns because they didn't
measure accurately, and may not do the reaming well themselves. Glad to hear you
are not one of them!

Good luck with your smith, sorry to hear about the injury.

Bill

[tek4260]

Hi, it's at the smith right for a while now. He's fixed the throats already he says, but he felt so sorry looking at that barrel S&W and their service people in europe refused to handle that he's gonna try fixing it up a bit, for free. What a great guy. The throats are now all .430" he says.

This is what I mean by my barrel:
http://i.imgur.com/45hNJ.jpg


Those "ridges" in the barrel are the reason I firelapped my 45. Mine were much worse and actually ran the full length of the barrel. All I can assume is that the rifling button chattered its way down the barrel.

Yours looks like a bad cutter at Smith when they cut the FC. Is it too deep to be cleaned up with an 11deg kit from Brownells?

[HDS]

Ah yes firelapping, I've been holding that as a last option, its been a bit scary to me to tell you the truth.

I do not know if an 11 degree kit would be enough or not. I was not going to do anything until I got it back and had tested it.

[tek4260]

Remember that the throats only get 1/6 of the cutting that the barrel does :)

[Mal Paso]

I have a 629 that had .428" and smaller throats before I reamed them. .429" groove.

BLTs 6' Full Lug 629 has .428" Throats too. He's still on the fence.

[HDS]

Yikes! 192 euros for reaming the cylinders :o You where right about being expensive, Ola!

[dubber123]

Ah yes firelapping, I've been holding that as a last option, its been a bit scary to me to tell you the truth.

I do not know if an 11 degree kit would be enough or not. I was not going to do anything until I got it back and had tested it.


Don't be afraid of firelapping. I have done a half dozen revolvers, some quite old with much softer steel than your newer S&W, and never saw a measurable increase in throat sizes. The barrels on the other hand, particularly where the thread constriction is concerned, were vastly improved. I'm a firm believer in firelapping where applicable.

[Ola]

Yikes! 192 euros for reaming the cylinders :o You where right about being expensive, Ola!

That's way more I would have expected. Hope you are happy with the result. With that much money it better be PERFECT!

[HDS]

TBH he has left some scratch marks on the cylinder itself so no it's not perfect, the throats look pretty and polished internally though... I can fix the scratches myself in 5 minutes with my glass bead blasting setup, annoying though considering the money (170 + shipping is how it broke down)

[Ola]

Did you measure the throats already?

When are you going to try it out? I'm very interested in hearing how it shoots and did the "throat job" fix the problems.

[HDS]

I will be loading some .44 specials with N32C, I have no press at the moment so I have to use this old C-frame i got for bullet lubing and do it single stage. Throats seem to be okay.

[Mal Paso]

I found Specials considerably more accurate after reaming the throats in my 629.

Next time buy me an airplane ticket and I'll ream them for free.:kidding:

[HDS]

Well today I finally shot my 629. Figured I at least ought to show the results of all this waiting and paying.

Been waiting since my last message in this thread for my new Dillon 650 setup to arrive. It has taken forever. But I loaded up some .44 special level rounds using N32C powder and I fired 50 of them today at the range, at the range it was hard to see anything but regular fouling. When I got it home I took some pictures pre-cleaning:

This is about the only place in the barrel now that has any real leading, I can barely see any lead anywhere else, it cleaned up easily with some wet swabs as well:
http://i47.tinypic.com/xdgmz8.jpg

The cylinder itself seems to have some gunk in it, lead shavings was what I was thinking but I did not get any metallic bits out of the cylinders aftwards that was anywhere near that size or shape. So maybe it was just powder fouling, maybe lube. Only two of the chambers where like this to boot.

http://i49.tinypic.com/23lckro.jpg

All in all it's a definite improvement. I will try a mixture of loads and alloys now to see what works best. The "arrows" or rockets in the rifling (seen in my earlier posts) don't seem to pick up any lead at all though, so they look like non-issues at least :)

[Mal Paso]

Lead on the right side, check the cylinder lock up before the hammer drops.

I had an awful day a few months ago with my 629, groups just got bigger. Next day I found firing pin strikes off center on the spent cases. I wore out the cylinder timing which got worse as the gun got dirty. Fit a new hand and all is good.

[gray wolf]

What you have in your cylinder and the traces in the forcing cone is exactly
what I am dealing with. Your pictures could be my pistol, Ruger S B K hunter.
My forcing cone was polished at the factory and all tool marks removed, and there is no restriction. The barrel shows no leading.
I size .432 to match my cylinder throats, .4295 bore.
9.3 grains of unique 250 gr. S W C bullet.
The forcing cone cleans up with a little chore boy, but the cylinders right at the chamber throat junction are a killer to try and get clean. I get it in all the cylinders. I don't get any lead splash in the frame window or anyplace outside the forcing cone, and none on the cylinder face. I am sorry for jumping on this thread with my problem, but I can't believe how it looks like my problem. good pictures they show the condition perfectly.
My accuracy is very, very good.
What on earth is the answer to this.
I still can't believe your pictures, They match my pistol to the letter.
Come on guys, what's the answer.

[HDS]

I didn't have any problems cleaning my cylinders, a wet patch followed by several dry ones and it looked sparkling clean again.