Questions on Casting for 9MM & .45 ACP

[niler]

30+ years handloading, but a new caster - sort of forced on me due to limited projectile source in current location. Cast some Lyman 9MM (125 GR TC) and .45 ACP (200 GR SWC) - have to say, I'm hooked!

Heard the 9 was really finicky about seating depth/pressure spike. Loaded 50 each w/4.0 & 50 each w/4.3 GRs Unique, with COAL of 1.110" using the 125 GR cast bullets (range lead, water quenched, pan-lubed w/NRA Formula - sized to .356").

Same-same w/the .45 ACP, loaded 50 each w/5.0 GRs Unique and 50 each w/5.3 GRs Unique, with COAL of 1.173 using the 200 GR SWCcast bullets (range lead, water quenched, pan-lubed w/NRA Formula - sized to .452").

Have to borry or rent a piece in current local - don't want to damage someone else's weapon. Are the loads within safety margin?

Some photo attached.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_203624e6a36aeaacce.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2085)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_203624e6a36dd3cb57.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2086)

[Lizard333]

The 9pm sounds about what I do. The only difference is I size mine to .357 as that is what my Beretta 92 likes.

45 sounds good too. Welcome to the addiction!!

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Your cast bullets look good and your loaded rounds as well. On both a slight taper crimp is often recommended (can't really see if you have it applied) You are correct about the sensitivity of seating depth in the 9mm. The slightest amount of increase can raise the pressure quite a bit/too much. On subsequent reloads of 9mm cases the case tension has to be watched as the grip on the bullet changes as the case mouth loses it's spring. On the 45ACP another game to keep an eye on is that the 45 cases grow shorter with number of firings. Weird but true. As for your powder charges, according to the Lee manual, the loads of Unique for the 9mm are well within spec and are safe. For the 45, again according to Lee, the 5.0 is ok, but the 5.3 is .2 over the line....5.1 is listed as giving 810 with a 20 grain bullet; 810 fps is nothing crazy( GI ball ammo goes at around that velocity), but just to let you know. You're not likely to blow up anything, but see how the loads work in terms of accuracy/grouping. Neither should give any leading. Both bullet designs are popular and have been around for quite a while. They feed well and your loadings should cycle the actions without a prob. 9mm isn't famous for being a target round, but it can be tuned to give decent accuracy...depends on what you're shooting it out of. 45 can do really well if you take the time and care to work with it. The key words to success are time and care. You've done a fine job with your casts and loadings. Good luck. LLS

[fredj338]

Your loads are quite light actually. So light you may have leading issues w/ water quenched bullets @ lower pressures. Unique like to run above mid range to burn completely & uniformly. You'll probably find better results @ 5gr for the 9mm @ 5.8gr for the 45acp.
Yes, OAL in small vol/high pressure rounds is critical. As little as 0.06" deeper seating can add 100fps to a 9mm load. All things being equal, pressure=vel. So caution is always the word w/ rounds like the 9mm, 357sig & 409, especially when using powders faster than Unique. Word to the wise, load no more than 10rds when doing load work ups. That could be a lot of single shot firing.

[niler]

ROGER ALL - appreciate the replies/input - all duly noted.

Have a Lyman cast bullet book coming, but mail slow here and in a pinch used loading data from an old Speer manual and their lead (swaged) bullets for both calibers - and stayed just under listed maximums. Listed Speer COALs for both calibers were much longer that what I used, hence my concerns w/possible pressure spike in the 9MM used the deeper seating depth for the 125 GR TC bullet.

FO Question relative a taper crimp for the 9MM and .45 ACP with cast bullets.

I seated all bullets in seperate step, with the crimp portion of the die backed way off, and then came back in a seperate step w/just enought crimp to take the bell out of the case. Do I need to allpy more crimp and if so, any general guidelines on how much?

Have loaded .40 S&W and .45 ACPS for a lot of years years, but have always used jacketed bullets. Remote location now, scrounging range brass and lead due to source contraints and using a borrowed or rented pistol.

Thanks again - really apprecaite the assist!

[fredj338]

You could measure factory rounds, but if the finished round fits your chamber, good to go.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Taper crimp is used in both calibers mainly to prevent telescoping of the bullet back into the case. Removing the bell from the case mouth with the taper crimp die often does the trick, but if you need to apply a little more, thats'ok. Just don't go too far as the round in either caliber has to seat on the case mouth...and if there is too much crimp then the round will go too far forward into the chamber. When you have it set right then take a micrometer and measure the diameter of the case mouth and write it down in your loading notebook so in case you have to reset the die(s) you will know where to go. That might happen with the 45ACP as with repeated firings the cases tend to shorten. If I recall correctly my loaded 45's had a taper crimp dia. of .471....I don't remember at the moment the one for my 9mm's. Same story for the 40SW and the 10mm's as they are also seating on the case mouth. There's nothing wrong with scrounging as sometimes its the only way to survive. Range lead tends to be a hodge podge that is usually soft. Mixing it with wheelweights hardens it up some due to the antimony in it. I use straight wheelweights and put in some tin using 60/40 bar solder to improve the castability/flowability of the alloy. It also adds to the hardness a bit. I don't go over 2% when I use it as tin isn't cheap. You may find that the range lead and WW gives enough hardness to forego the quenching step. That indeed can contribute to leading at lower pressures and nobody needs leading. I like Unique and use it in several calibers. It sometimes isn't the cleanest burning stuff around, but it is still reasonably priced and does a good job. Keep up the good work. LLS

[milprileb]

Crimp can be critical on 9mm accuracy. Do it very very light. It seems not to be as critical on 45acp and I have had good accuracy for years with far more crimp on 45acp than I should have. However, great loads in 9mm have been screwed up by my heavy ham fisted crimp on 9mm.

I quote the Hornady manual (which I violated and no longer do): "Little to no crimp on 45acp and 9mm".

I am onto very little crimp...and you might well do the same.

Lastly, if you are borrowing a pistol or renting one (per your comments), then there is a very good chance the loads you develop will not be ideal in other pistols and you must re start your load development.

My Browning Hi Power and my Taurus 9mm barrels demand different reloading techniques and bullet/powder loads. I got to tailor in order to feed loads that shoot accurately in either.

[MtGun44]

Any testing reason to water drop the .45 boolits? I never have needed anything harder than
range lead or wwt alloy to get top accy with that mold. I seat them a touch longer for my
guns, but yours may need that LOA. I try for max LOA that will drop into the dismounted
barrel with no more than 1 lb finger tip pressure - free drop is preferred.

Inadequate TC is a key problem issue with .45 ACP, so don't eliminate it. I set a "moderate"
whatever that means, TC for my 9mms and they work fine, but I have not measured it or
tried anything different, since it is working. Keep the 9mm diameter large enough as too
small seems to be THE issue with 9mms

Bill

[redbeard55]

The Lasercast manual actually has suggested crimp to diameters. For 9mm I believe the crimp to diameter is 3.785" The manual states this works well for most brands of brass

[Blammer]

I seated all bullets in seperate step, with the crimp portion of the die backed way off, and then came back in a seperate step w/just enought crimp to take the bell out of the case.

that's the way I do it!

[Cherokee]

redbeard55 - I think you ment .3785 at the case mouth. I use .376 for 9mm and .470 for 45 ACP.

niler - loads look good. Let us know how they work for you.

[fredj338]

The Lasercast manual actually has suggested crimp to diameters. For 9mm I believe the crimp to diameter is 3.785" The manual states this works well for most brands of brass
The problem with that, it depends on the sized dia & the case thickness. It will NEVER be that exact, but vary from brand of brass. I have never measured, my rule of thumb, if I can see the crimp, it's too much, if the round will not chamber, it's too little.

[niler]

ROGER ALL and thanks for the great feedback!

Went back and checked the Taper Crimp. Ran the die down using a round of loaded hardball to set it, and then and ran the loaded rounds back thru for just the crimp - seating stem back out of the away (like before). Random sample from each caliber case mouth measured:
9MM .379 ~ .380 - AVG .3798
.45 ACP .4375 ~ .474 - AVG - .4735

Mixed "range" Brass and the bullets ran .3550 inch ~ .3555 inch and .4515 inch ~ .4520 inch after sizing in a Lee .356 and .452 die, respectively.

No test data to support water queunching - range lead was full of core material, assumptions were the alloy was core metal and soft, hence the water quench.

Thanks again - will send a test results when I can get to the range/club.

[niler]

To close the loop - the 9MM fodder worked fine in a borrowed H&K pistol until it got dirty (not leaded, just dirty - someone had fired it a lot before I rented it) and the .45 ACP stuff worked well also in a Buddy's stack magazine 1911. Thanks for the feedback, I learned a lot!