Alloy for elk?

[Trailblazer]

I am planning to go on my first elk hunt in Colorado next fall. My friends tell me I should take the 30-06 or the 264 WM. Only thing is I have a 356 Winchester and three good molds for it. I am not going to ask what this crowd thinks I should take!

http://www.hunt101.com/img/407982.jpg (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=407982&c=556&z=1)
The RCBS-200-FN, Saeco 352(250 grains) and an NEI 290(295 grains)

I have not finished load development but have worked up to 2000 FPS with the Saeco 352 and 1950 FPS with the NEI 290 with more room to go. I will use either the Saeco or NEI design depending on my final loads and trajectory tests. I must say though that the NEI is begging to go elk hunting! The bullets I started development with are air cooled and I think were 50% WW and 50% LT but I can't find my notes on that.

I am looking for suggestions on alloy. I have WW and LT and no hardness tester. I am wondering if straight aircooled WW would do the trick at 2000 to 2100 FPS? Is there any need for anything harder or should I add some LT for big critters like elk?

[waksupi]

I'd probably stick with the 250 gr., for a little better trajectory than the heavy. I like a bit more mass than the 200 for elk. No experience with that weight bullet on elk, but I like heavier. I've shot them with with 237, and 277 gr. .35 cal bullets, and had completepenetration.
I would say, if the aircooled WW's will shoot accurately, go with them. Otherwise, do some heat hardening, to get enough hardness to handle your velocity. You can vary the oven temp by 20-25 degrees, and get pretty much any hardness range you want, depending on your final heat.

[jhalcott]

never shot an elk. but I do have a 35whelen that I shoot the lyman 358318 in. it's a 245 grain gc mold.I use an alloy of WW and lino ,about 15 bhn. Hard bullets of straight lino almost disintegrate when shot into stacks of DRY phone books. If I THOUGHT I needed a harder than 15 bhn alloy ,I'd use heat treated ww.

[carpetman]

Trailblazer--I am one member of the crowd that would say take your 30-06 and jacketed bullet. Why? Well you are going to spend a fair amount of money to hunt out of state. Most likely you will be on limited time. You just have so long for the opportunity for a shot. Why not give yourself the best chance? Sure the .356 with cast bullets will take an elk--but you'll give up range and trajectory vs using the 30-06. Even if you do use a cast bullet,it won't be something new that has not already been done. For me an elk hunt would be an out of state deal and 30-06 and jacketed would be what I'd use. Waksupi can walk out his door and if he doesn't see one today,he probably will tomorrow--different deal,when we spend the $$ to hunt out of state give yourself the best chance.

[dmbassking]

I recently moved to Colorado and during most of the december season I had elk in the yard when i got up for work (took mine with a 44mag from inside the laundry room).

If I were paying the $500 most guys were paying for a license PLUS a place to stay, food, etc I would go with the '06 for sure.

[Ranch Dog]

I wouldn't be scared... I would use my 356 Win too!

Trailblazer... here is a picture of my TLC432-285-RF, recovered from a 700# nilgai here in south Texas. This boolit was shot from my 444 Marlin at this free ranging critter and was cast from 1 to 1, WW:Linotype and water quenched (BHN of 31).

I shot this critter quartering to me on the point of the shoulder, angling back through the chest cavity. The boolit was lodged in the hide on the opposite side near the last rib. It, the boolit, knocked the stuffing out of this tough critter... broke it's shoulder and then shut it's breathing machine (lungs) down. The shot was 120-yards and the boolit would have been traveling at approximately 1950 FPS while producing 2240 FPE.

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/Nilgai Boolit.jpg

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/Nilgai Kill.jpg

Good luck on your shooting and hunting!

[Bass Ackward]

ACWW with the 250 will give you 200 yards in the 356 at 2000fps plus.

Strangely enough, that is all my 06 would be good for using jackets. And the 264 wouldn't shoot any farther than that in my hands either.

If the terrain or your health requires more and you can't make that statement, then I would grab something else.

[jhalcott]

I don't know about any one else ,but for me IT'S THE HUNT not the kill i look for. I've killed a lot of animals with all manner of weapon. WHY would some one spend several thousand bucks on a BOW hunt?? How about those gunslingers who chase after antelope with HANDGUNS? I KNOW how i feel by NOT taking my 35 whelen to Maine for deer using cast bullets. Yes it does put an extra burden on you, but I bet you are the kind of shooter who ALWAYS picks his shot.

[Trailblazer]

One of my friends suggested I take the '06 along just in case. Might do that but I would really rather use the 356 and the home made bullets. Yes, another friend used to say, "The hunt is better than the kill!" I would surely kick myself if I didn't take the 356.

There will be four of us going if it all comes together. I learned yesterday there is some doubt about the trip. Anyway two of the fellows have successfully hunted elk and deer in this area before so they are familiar with it. They will be hunting trophy deer so the other fellow, who is not a highly skilled hunter will be hunting elk with me. Another friend who is a serious trophy hunter and knows this area well has the maps and will tell me where he thinks I should go too. So I will not be going blind. I also want to go a few days early to scout the area. The fellows who have been there say it is no problem to kill a cow. Cow tag is $250. Don't know if I will pop for the bull tag at $500. Can't eat them horns and it doesn't sound like the odds are that good!

I will probably use the 250 grain bullet because it chambers easier. The heavyweight is more accurate but not enough to matter. So far it looks like the heavyweight will get within 100 FPS of the 250 so trajectory probably isn't that much different. I also figured the 356 to be a 200 yard rifle.

I looked at my notes again and I have had the 250 to 2050 FPS with no pressure indications so I am sure I can get another 50 FPS anyway. I have a few of the 50% LT bullets left. I will try straight air cooled WW next batch.

Nice job on the Nilgai, Ranch Dog. I understand they are tough critters! That bullet did its job well. What was the muzzle velocity?

[C1PNR]

One of my friends suggested I take the '06 along just in case. Might do that but I would really rather use the 356 and the home made bullets. Yes, another friend used to say, "The hunt is better than the kill!" I would surely kick myself if I didn't take the 356.
By all means take an extra rifle along! Who knows what might happen, and once you're in Colorado and something bad happens to your ONLY rifle, you are up that famous CREEK!

I always take along AT LEAST one extra rifle (my well trusted '06), and the last couple of years I took two extra (the '06 and a new 7 Rem Mag). Always with their own glass aboard, and a goodly supply of well tested ammunition. The trip is just too expensive not to take some insurance.[smilie=1:

[waksupi]

Sparerifles are indeed a good thing, particularly far from home. My spare has generally been an old milsurp in original configuration. Fail safe, and built to hack it.

[Trailblazer]

I do think the spare rifle is a good idea. I will probably take the 264 instead of the 30-06. The 30-06 is a well worn pre-64 Model 70 that I am emotionally attached to. The 264 is a well worn mid-80"s Model 70 that also carries a lot of memories but I wouldn't miss it as much if I lost it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If I was hunting a heavy boned big animal like Elk and it was a big expensive hunt, I'd take the 3006. Loaded with good bullets like the barnes triple shock or woodleighs. I love cast and I love leverguns, but a 3006 will kill reliably from any angle with either of these bullets. If the guide spots a trophy and it is 350 yards away, with a good rest and a goos scope, you got your elk. If I was in a position to come back next week if I couldn't get close enough this time, I'd pack the levergun with the 250Gn boolit.

An expensive hunt is not the time to experiment (unless you are really loaded). Once in a lifetime hunt? I'd go out and buy a new Ruger in 338Win Mag and load or buy some premium ammo for it.

I hunt sambar here which are similar to Elk, in the past I have carried a 3006 loaded with 180Gn Corelokts and taken a back up 45/70 Marlin for thick going and hunting the overgrown rivers, blackberry patches and if it is raining.

Mind you I have been several times, and have only found fresh sambar turds so far, but I'm confident in the formula :-D

I have altered it slightly recently, use a 308 with 160Gn Woodleighs and a 444S (group buy mould hasn't come through yet).
Mick.

[Red River Rick]

Trailblazer:

If you're spending $$$ on this hunt it would probably be best to take along something that will give you the upper hand. The 30-06 or the .264 Win Mag will definately give you the advantage if your forced to make your shots at more than a couple of hundred yards. I'm not saying that a cast bullet won't do the trick, the "J" bullet will make it that much better.

I've shot lots of elk, my preference is the 7MM Rem Mag. Using a 139 boattail "J" bullet backed by 62 grs of H4831, stops them very well. Most of my elk hunting is done at ranges between 200 and 500 yards, so a good flat shooting cartridge is a must. The .264 Win Mag would be ideal for this senario.

Good luck on your hunt.

RRR

[Larry Gibson]

Trailblazer

Take the .358 AND the '06. You mention that you are going to scout for a couple days; that should be where you'll make your decisision. I hunt elk in NE oregon and have killed 17 of them on license (killed quite a few others that were injured as a LEO). I have also been "in" on numerous other elk hunting kills with numerous cartridges. I have killed several elk with cast bullets. I most often take my '06 and another rifle with cast bullets. Where I hunt ranges can be long or short. Three yars ago I killed a spike at 458 yards and this last season I killed another spike at 50 yards at the farthest. I was going to take my M70 .375 and carry both jacketed and cast loads. However I opted for the '06 and my Officers Model H&R TD. The area where the elk were was mostly open so I took the '06. However at break of day we dropped down into a small timbered canyon to get to the open country and that's where I jumped the spike out of his bed. In retrospect the 400 gr cast bullet out of the Officers Model would have done nicely but so would a 311041 out of the '06. Of course the 275 gr Lyman out of the .375 at 2200 fps would have done nicely but you never know.

Anyways, my advise is take both and make your decision after you scout out the terrain and where the elk are. Good luck and let us know what happens.

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

I misread your post, as did lot of guys here, you said you only have the 356. Looks like you'll have to run with that. I don't know what sort of velocities you get with jacketed, but unless it was alot better than the 250Gn lead maybe it's not that much in front.

I'd still check out the triple shock bullets by Barnes or Woodleighs, You wll be tied to whats made for tube mags though. If you are forced to use Hornadys or a standard bullet, you may be as well off with lead. I think I'd be picking up one of those Mossbergs pr similar in 3006 and putting a decent scope on it, even if you borrow it of one of your existing rifles. You'll drop a hundred or two if you sold it after the hunt, but you would be better equipped. A spare 3006 will always earn it's keep. I'm an Aussie, but you wouldn't be a real American without at least one 3006, one levergun and one handgun would you? Sort of like being an aussie or a canuk and not owning a 303Brit.

[Trailblazer]

Mick, you didn't misread. I do own a 30-06 and a 264 Win Mag. My present plan is to take the 356 and the 264. The 264 has been my primary deer rifle for many years and I use the Barnes X-bullet in it so that rifle is ready to go as is. I am a true believer in X-bullets.

This will not be a guided hunt and will be relatively cheap as these things go. Hopefully it won't be the last elk hunt I go on so I don't consider it a do or die situation. I am going to get a cow tag to begin with. If I get there and get a decent bull tied up somewhere I might go buy a bull tag too. Bulls have to be four points or better. I am told there will be opportunities for long shots as well as short shots. I figure I will play it by ear. I will use the 356 if I am going to hunt in close cover and use the 264 if I am looking long. I am going to favor the 356 though.

Nice bull, Rick! And Larry, the 375 sounds like the best of both worlds. Plenty of weight and diameter for cast and good trajectory with jacketed.

I shot rifle silhouette yesterday and grilled the fellows I am going with about the terrain, access and cover. I am ready now! I don't want to wait for November!

[Bass Ackward]

TB,

In truth, I could have filled a box car with Elk using a 4", 44 the last two times I was out west. Just depends on where and how you hunt. Some guys are .... shooters and hunt accordingly. Some guys are hunters and cover ground and get into places that big glass and pop bottle cases offers no advantage. For me it tends to be the exact opposite. I do need 200 yards though if I got to get into position for a crack.

I really, really, really want to be the first guy. Saves on shoe leather. That feeling lasts for all of about 2 hours .... then .... I tend to be the latter. [smilie=b:

My hunting nickname is Dog. Go get'em Dog.

Ah hell, it keeps somebody employed making shoes / boots.

[Trailblazer]

I am a walker too. I walk even when it doesn't make any sense to walk. I like to get out amongst 'em. And away from the other hunters. Going to have to watch myself with elk because they are about 4 times as big as what I normally pack out.

[Larry Gibson]

I am a walker too. I walk even when it doesn't make any sense to walk. I like to get out amongst 'em. And away from the other hunters. Going to have to watch myself with elk because they are about 4 times as big as what I normally pack out.

That's why you gut, skin and quarter them and pack out one quarter at a time. I always wear a good pack frame when hunting elk as I hunt road closure areas in NE Oregon. Also helps to have friends around! It was a 2 1/2 mile pack out on my elk this last season. Three of us carried 3 quarters and most of the gear then two of us went back for the last quarter and other gear. On my budies elk 4 days later we had a 3 mile 45 minute chase out across open land to intercept a fast moving herd so we left the packs in the PU. The elk looped around us so when he shot his spike it was only 2/3 mile from the road which helped but it was also a mile and a half back up the road to the PU. While my two buddies gutted, skinned and quartered the front of the elk I took the rifle and extra gear back and got the PU. That was another almost 3+ mile jaunt. Then we packed the elk back to the PU in one trip with Mike packing the back quarters. Both elk were a lot of work after the shooting but it's all part of the hunt and I actually enjoyed it.

Larry Gibson

[TCLouis]

an elk.
Whoa. a lot to pack, how to make it to where I could carry it . . . no, don't want to spend a lot of time packing one out.

Finally decided there were two issues;

1. Bone in or bone out and carry pure meat.

2. Would I rather get one and have to concern myself with packing it out, or hunting unsucessfully.

Finally decided

Bone out, why carry 75-200 pounds of bone,

Rather spend time recovering many a fine meal that site seeing if possible.

Tromping around the Mountains of southern Colorado hunting is MUCHO success, whether I shoot something or not!

Has to be bone free to bring into TN also so why cart bones out of woods and leave them at camp rather than in woods for woods critters.

[Trailblazer]

I backpack hunt for deer and always bone them. I figure I will bone an elk too if it is very far from the road. It will have to be boned to bring it back to California because of CWD so I may as well do it where it falls.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have killed deer with 250 cast in the .356 using both 5050ww/lyno and #2 and both have given me one shot kills but then thats not the same size animal as an elk but id sure think theyd do just fine

[piwo]

I came across this site prior to leaving for NM to elk hunt, and this was a different approach for me. I have however since talked to numerous elk hunters who do this very thing! It leaves some burger meat, but is obviously easier then traditional method.

Losts of photos, lots of blood! Enjoy! :drinks:

http://www.ski-epic.com/hunting2003/field_dress_elk/index.html

[Larry Gibson]

an elk.
Whoa. a lot to pack, how to make it to where I could carry it . . . no, don't want to spend a lot of time packing one out.

Finally decided there were two issues;

1. Bone in or bone out and carry pure meat.

2. Would I rather get one and have to concern myself with packing it out, or hunting unsucessfully.

Finally decided

Bone out, why carry 75-200 pounds of bone,

Rather spend time recovering many a fine meal that site seeing if possible.

Tromping around the Mountains of southern Colorado hunting is MUCHO success, whether I shoot something or not!

Has to be bone free to bring into TN also so why cart bones out of woods and leave them at camp rather than in woods for woods critters.

I do it both ways. I prefer to pack it out unboned unless in a really deep canyon. The reason is the meat will hang a lot better and in the end be much more enjoyable eating. Do to the hunting season my spike was hung for 8 days. Hard to "keep" boned meat that long before processing. With that spike I hung 249 lbs at the butcher (the shop specializes in processing game animals) and got back 268 lbs of cut and qrapped meat, very well done. No suet was added to the hamburger but the hunters sausage I had made is what increased the weight. If I had been hunting alone I efinately would have bond out the mat as I would have broke camp and left for home the next day. While it was a 2.5 mile pack it was on a fairly level skid road. Humped a lot of heavier rucks than that in the Army in a lot worse places. At least this time it was "fun"!

Larry Gibson

[MT Gianni]

I came across this site prior to leaving for NM to elk hunt, and this was a different approach for me. I have however since talked to numerous elk hunters who do this very thing! It leaves some burger meat, but is obviously easier then traditional method.

Losts of photos, lots of blood! Enjoy! :drinks:

http://www.ski-epic.com/hunting2003/field_dress_elk/index.html

They also left the tenderloins in! This piece of meat is inside the rib cage running parrallel to the loins and is some of the best eating you will find. Many garbage bags are treated with a anti bacterial or anti fungal coating. I would prefer another type of carrier myself. Years ago a catalog offered medical grade plastic bags that were used to carry items. A gallon bag would hold about 75 lbs or more before bursting, great stuff. I would go with pillow cases next to the meat and or old cotton sheets as mantee's before going in to a garbage bag if at all. My 2 cents, Gianni.

[onceabull]

Gianni has it right... & DO NOT leave your carcass in Idaho without taking off more than those photo's,or risk citation..and I have seen it happen to others, ..I've also used that technique a lot ,just spent enough extra time/effort to get the tenderloins,AND strip down the rib cage .. Idaho wardens have really been going after the "hornshooters" ,some of whom don't even bother to get the topstraps... fwiw, Onceabull

[C1PNR]

That last picture was pretty distressing to me. They didn't "bone out" that elk, they took off 4 legs, the back straps, and some of the neck!

I think a citation is in order for wasting so much meat, including the absolute best - the tenderloins!:-(

[piwo]

That last picture was pretty distressing to me. They didn't "bone out" that elk, they took off 4 legs, the back straps, and some of the neck!

I think a citation is in order for wasting so much meat, including the absolute best - the tenderloins!:-(

Yep, that's what took me by surprise. THe tenderloins are GOLD in my book! I saw more then one "outfitter" doing it this way on the internet and showing it online, and talked to a few hunters out west who had done this (or been on hunts where this was done). The packrat I am of course, I'd want every last scrap of meat possible... Some guide services rationalize they don't want to linger in the are too long to "contaminate" other hunting, others saying the heat that time of year the meat would be ruined if they tried to make several trips to pack out all the meat...

[waksupi]

The elk butchering on that page, is a botched mess. I can have an elk gutted, skinned, and quartered in well under an hour. It took my X-wife 45 minutes to do an elk. What the hell were these pilgrims up to? These *******es left probably 40 pounds of good meat, with the neck roasts, the ribs, inner loin, not to mention heart and liver. These guys are slob hunters, and are not welcome on my mountain. Around here, that is called a poachers cut. Probably where they learned the method. And I can tell you, a head and cape from an elk, is no where near a hundred pounds.
Scumbags, start to finish, in my book.

[Trailblazer]

That is sad! When I bone a deer there is nothing left but bone. I even cut the little strips of meat out between the ribs. It goes in the grinder or makes taco meat.

Thanks, Lloyd, I have been reading everything I can find and it looks like anything from WW to half WW and half LT works.

[Larry Gibson]

The elk butchering on that page, is a botched mess. I can have an elk gutted, skinned, and quartered in well under an hour. It took my X-wife 45 minutes to do an elk. What the hell were these pilgrims up to? These *******es left probably 40 pounds of good meat, with the neck roasts, the ribs, inner loin, not to mention heart and liver. These guys are slob hunters, and are not welcome on my mountain. Around here, that is called a poachers cut. Probably where they learned the method. And I can tell you, a head and cape from an elk, is no where near a hundred pounds.
Scumbags, start to finish, in my book.

Hey, I packed mine out, look at the picture! Even when I boned them out in the field I took a lot more than what those guys left. I only left guts and bones. Having been a LEO in NE Oregon and having worked game violations I would have cited them for wanton waste of a big game animal. With a picture like that I don't think any jury would take too long figuring it out.

Anyways if you missed my other post I'll be "out of the net" until 20 February when Ill be entering the net again. That's Army speak for I'll be out of town and away from the commo (computer).

Larry Gibson