Powder and the 9mm

[Sapper771]

I am in the middle of load development for the 9mm again. I guess you could say that I am still chasing the perfect load combination, or maybe just a better one than I have. Since I started reloading, I have heard of several guidelines pertaining to the 9mm. Things like "The 9mm performs better with faster burning powders under the light bullets" and "147gr bullets perform better better with slower powders". I dont have a large amount of experience in these matters, but I have found that I have better luck using slower powders (Unique, WSF, Silhouette, AA#5) with the 115gr to 125gr bullets and faster burning powders (W231,WST, Bullseye) with the 147gr bullets. I do understand that there are several more variables involved in this. I do understand that each firearm is different and they do show a preference to certain powders and projectiles. This still puzzles me ........

On top of this is the POA/POI issues. This is usually my big problem when I do load development. 90% of the time I cast and load for a Glock 17 that has Warren Tactical sights. Usually my rounds will print high at 10 yards. I continue load development til I get a load that prints POA at around 7-10 yards. Sometimes I get lucky and I discover a good combo early, other times I end up going through several cycles of testing til I find a load that works. Most of the time I have to go into the upper end of the load data before I see POA=POI. Not always a good thing when I am wanting to stay around minor power factor. I could change sight heighth til I get the right one, but its cheaper and more convenient to tweak the load til it performs to my standards. I dont really ask for much, if it can hold a good 1"-1.5" group at 10 yards that is POA, I am pleased. I do IDPA style shooting, so I dont need bullseye grade ammo.


One thing that I have noticed is that my particular Glock 17 shows a liking to hot 115gr and 124gr/125gr bullets. My most recent load was 5.5gr of Ramshot Silhouette under a 124gr TC Boolit (0.358" , ACWW). This load is a half grain over max (Per Ramshot load guide 4.5) , but it shoots great out of my Glock. I do not think it is over pressure because I am using Federal SP primers, which are well known for being soft, and they arent showing any flattening. When I drop the load down to 5.0gr of Silhouette, the groups open up and POI is below POA. Hornady's load data shows a max of 5.8gr of WAP (same as Silhouette) for thier 124gr LRN. Not really sure if Ramshot's data is just ultra conservative or not.

I think the Warren Sights may be regulated for +P defensive ammunition.......but thats just a WAG.

I have been messing with VV N340 as well. This is one odd powder. It burns very very clean. I started below their load data at 4.5gr and was still getting velocities in the high 1,000 FPS to low 1,100 FPS! At 4.5gr of VV N340, POI is one inch below POA.


What are your experiences with different powders and 9mm performance?

[bobthenailer]

I have also foud i get better accuracy with cast bullets in the 9mm & 38 Super with med to med fast burning powders and also the tc nose profile is more accurate than the the rn nose profile in my guns

[beagle]

I'm feeding a couple of High Powers and find that they do very well with bullets in the 120-125 grain range and one of the fast burners like 700X, WW231, Red Dot and even old Bullseye. The Lyman 356402 and the 125 grain version of Lyman's 358242 get the most play and load and feed well.

Most of my loads are used for plinking and carrying around the farm when a shot is possible at a snake or yote.

These loads function nicely and are economical both as to powder and lead./beagle

[theperfessor]

I've pretty much settled on Blue Dot as my go-to 9mm powder for 125 gr and heavier boolits.

[garym1a2]

I just use 4.9 grains of WSF. Good velocity, no leading and easy to use.
Lee 120TC

[Sapper771]

One of my better loads was using 4.6gr of WSF under a Lee 120gr TC.

Maybe I need to revisit some of the faster powders. The Federal primers I use seem to like the slower powders better than the faster. I get a lot flat primers when I use W231. I have heard that Federal primers are so soft that they will show pressure signs at 20,000psi.....so who knows whats going on. I would use a different primer, but I have plenty of Federals and my press likes them.

[firefly1957]

Sapper771 Do any of your loading data sources have pressures? The reason I ask is some companies stop load lead loads at lower velocities to reduce leading(often the loads are for soft swaged bullet also). That is instead of going to full allowable pressures sometimes wide pressure/velocity variations also stop load development in the manuals.

[sig2009]

5.5gns WSF for all my 115gn fmj loads.

[Sapper771]

Firefly,

I only found one source that gave PSI. Winchester's data for their 124gr LRN states that max load is 4.7gr of WSF at 27,300 PSI. Ramshot and Vihta Vuori do not list pressures, just MIN and MAX.

I did have a slight breakthrough today with VV N340 and my cast boolits. 4.5gr was printing low. I shot some at 4.6gr and POI moved up a bit, still about a half inch below POA at 10 yards. This will work for now. It is accurate enough for the upcoming IDPA match. May look for some VV N320. Always heard that it is THE 9mm powder.

[GabbyM]

Your primers are probably showing high pressure signs with WW231 because it's just that. I tried the 4.4 gr max load of ww231 under 122 TC and could measure an average and max of .0003” case head expansion upon firing. Velocity was also only clocked at 1,133 fps not the 1,264 fps listed in the book. Altogether not a very impressive showing for WW231. I tried 4.4 gr WW231 under a 124gr RN same day and only clocked 1,063 fps. Cases still expanded with that load.

[Sapper771]

Gabby,

I figured it was just soft primers. Maybe W231 is too fast for 9mm. That would also throw Bullseye out too.
After this match is over, I am going to dedicate some serious time to in depth load development.

What about Power Pistol? Some folks at another forum told me that Power Pistol isnt very good with cast boolits, True?

[ph4570]

Blue dot for my sig and beretta with 120-130 grainers works well for me.

[Tinbullet]

For NRA bullseye competition I've been using 4.0 gr of Titegroup behind a RCBS 121 gr CN or either of the Lyman or Lee 123 gr RN bullets. The CN chronographs @ 865 fps with CCI primers. The RN run about 840 fps. I use a Glock 19 with a Storm Lake barrel. Accuracy is good at bullseye ranges and the loads don't beat you up. I save the Power Pistol for the Gold dots.

[fecmech]

When chasing maximum accuracy with cast at max jacketed velocities my best results came with Hodgdon Longshot followed very closely by BlueDot. As a previous poster said most of the medium speed powders do very well in the 9MM. I've used WSF, Herco, 540, and 571 all with acceptable results. I've also used Bullseye and 231 with 120 gr bullets in the 1000 fps or less range. For me the faster powders did not do very well above that threshold with cast.

[GabbyM]

4.0 grains of WW-231 or HP-38 under 122 > 124 grain bullets is a better load than trying to run the max listed charges of fast powder. I’ve found the same to be true with Bullseye. Back in the 1970’s I ran a bunch of max charges of Bullseye in light bullet 9mm loads. Shot good with light recoil but after a few relaods the primer pockets got loose and the head stamp was about smashed away.

I tried Power Pistol. Not that impressed with it. Another one that failed to meet velocity listed in the books. That’s of course just in my one 4” barrel 9mm. Got higher velocity with the same apparent pressure with Alliant 20/28. Which works like Unique in a 9mm. 5.0 gr charge under the 122gr Saeco #377 gave 1142 fps while the Power Pistol gave 1095 with 5.7gr. Loaded some PP under some WW-124-RN-FMJ. 6.4gr charge gave 1132 fps.

Tried VV 3n38 with my Magma 147gr FN. Slow burning powder and I think it’s a little dirty however it‘s hard to beet for sheer power in a 9mm. 6.9gr loaded with COL of 1.142” gave 1,143 fps average. Primers CCI-500 get flattened but can’t measure any case head expansion. To shoot those I change out the 14 pound stock spring for a 17 pound spring. Have a 16 pound spring that I’d use to carry the load. It cycles an 18 pound spring at the range. With the stock 14 lb it ejected brass at 2 o’clock. I’m shooting them in a stainless steel frame S&W 659. It’s basically 40 S&W power in a 9mm. It’s no fun to shoot due to recoil. Had to run it to max book load to get the POI in the target. If I ever want a 9mm for backup on a bear or hog hunt I’ve the load now. I loaded up one hundred Hornady 147gr XTP’s with it. I generally don’t shoot hollow points from a 9mm or other small pistols because of lost penetration. I think the 147’s at those velocities will penetrate enough for some applications.

[jakharath]

I've had good luck with Titegroup.

[Lizard333]

For me I only use 231/HP38. Meters well and burns clean.

[Sapper771]

I may try some W231 again. I have also heard good things about tightgroup in 9mm, just never tried it.
Never seen any Long Shot in my area. Blue Dot is every where though.

Thanks for all the imput Guys.

[HodakaGA]

147's + Solo 1000 = Very Clean, soft shooting, and low smoke. Shoots to point of aim or sightly high loading just above 125 PF and with stock sights. My G19C looked like it had just been cleaned after 200+ rounds at our last GSSF match.

My experience with Unique & 115's was filthy, snappy recoil, and loud.

For IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challange, and GSSF loads go over to the Brian Enos website.

[fredj338]

I find best accuracy in the 9mm w/ lead bullets using medium burniers like Unique, WSF or PP. I wouldn't use TG in 9mm of I had 8# of it. WST is about as fast as I like to go & get good results w/ lead bullets, but not the accuracy I get form the med burners.

[paul edward]

I have been using 5.1 Gr of W-231 with 115 gr FMJ. Anything less will not reliably work the action of my P-38.

Tried HS-6 which works OK but leaves a lot of unburned powder.

Since I load a lot of 9mm, I like a powder that meters evenly so I do not have to weigh each charge. This rules out Bullseye and Unique.

[fecmech]

Since I load a lot of 9mm, I like a powder that meters evenly so I do not have to weigh each charge. This rules out Bullseye and Unique.

I will grant you that Unique may fluctuate a couple tenths but Bullseye meters as well as 231 any day. Both 231 and BE are fine grained powders.

[ScottJ]

I will grant you that Unique may fluctuate a couple tenths but Bullseye meters as well as 231 any day. Both 231 and BE are fine grained powders.

Agreed. BE meters very well through my Lee Auto Disk.

I'm just now getting off into 9mm load dev for IDPA.

So far my most promising is a RCBS 115gr RN that comes to around 119 cast from ACWW sized .356 and lubed. The XD-9 service I just bought from a friend really likes it over 3.8gr BE.

I worked that up back before I had a chrono and it felt really light but was rather accurate. The recoil impulse is really quick allowing for fast follow-ups.

Worrying about power factor I bumped to 4.0gr and ran those across the chrono. They averaged 1115 but accuracy went out the window and they were much snappier.

I happend to have two rounds of the 3.8 left and they averaged 1079 for the two shots (I know, not nearly a large enough sample). That should barely make power factor so I'm going to start there.

I just bought a Lee 6 cav 120-TC to try. That RCBS boolit is a bit of a hassle to cast well and they must be sized. Unsized they don't chamber well. I tried.

[michiganvet]

I've been using Power Pistol with the 147gr rf.

[shovel80]

I use 4.8 Grs. Power Pistol under 115 Gr. RN. for 9mm,, and 6.2 Grs. of the same powder and bullet for the 38 super....seem very acurate in both guns..I want to try 124 gr. bullets in the .38 super though.
Terry

[garym1a2]

That 6up lee 120tc mold can throw a ton of lead very fast. I would be interested with what load you end up with it. My load is 4.7wsf and I average 1160-1180fps with it.

Agreed. BE meters very well through my Lee Auto Disk.

I'm just now getting off into 9mm load dev for IDPA.

So far my most promising is a RCBS 115gr RN that comes to around 119 cast from ACWW sized .356 and lubed. The XD-9 service I just bought from a friend really likes it over 3.8gr BE.

I worked that up back before I had a chrono and it felt really light but was rather accurate. The recoil impulse is really quick allowing for fast follow-ups.

Worrying about power factor I bumped to 4.0gr and ran those across the chrono. They averaged 1115 but accuracy went out the window and they were much snappier.

I happend to have two rounds of the 3.8 left and they averaged 1079 for the two shots (I know, not nearly a large enough sample). That should barely make power factor so I'm going to start there.

I just bought a Lee 6 cav 120-TC to try. That RCBS boolit is a bit of a hassle to cast well and they must be sized. Unsized they don't chamber well. I tried.

[MT Gianni]

I have been doing OK with 4.0 gr AA2 surplus under the 358242 & the 356402.

[finishman2000]

i use AA#7 on my 147 and 135 magma boolits. i'm getting 1070 out of the handguns and 1270 out of teh carbines with no leading. i do water drop the ww heads and they seem very hard.
i tried faster powers (trying to stretch my $$) but leaded up and wasn't getting the velocity out of the uzi. AA#7 was the best i tried.

[milprileb]

Hold the presses please !

This thread illustrates what I have been living through for months: chasing around for a powder that is ideal in 9mm.

I have gone from BE all the way up the burn rate to Blue Dot. It is my opinion that the reason there are so many powders that have worked or not worked for cast 9mm loads is two fold: some bullets are not fitting bores and are undersized and the other part is everyones barrel is different. What shoots just fine in my High Power does not shoot just fine in my Taurus. Some pistols shoot RN better than TC bullets and some pistols get zero leading with BE powder and some do.

So if you have the perfect seating depth, perfect lube, perfect sizing, perfect alloy, perfect crimp, perfect cast bullet, all that perfection is for naught if you use the wrong powder for that bullet in a particular barrel.

Sadly, its a trial and error process that may be short (or long in my case) based on the barrel of your weapon.

Thus, I get no leading and better accuracy from WW 231 and Blue Dot than I do with BE which leads up my Taurus barrel.

It may very well be the case that with some powders, you won't get away with Tumble lube bullets in a particular pistol barrel and yet
in another , TL does just fine.

A very seasoned reloader told me yesterday when I asked for his recommendation for a powder in 9mm: " Bullseye". I just blinked
and then pondered and finally figured out that in 9mm.... its all a KRAP shoot on which is best powder

[fecmech]

its all a KRAP shoot on which is best powder

The devil is in the details! If you look carefully back over the various 9MM loading threads you can see why people are very happy with fast powders and others are not. Some people are quite satisfied with 120 gr bullets at 900-1000 fps and BE,231 tightgroup etc will work just fine there, usually. Others when the give their data are using plated or jacketed bullets. Others such as myself when making recommendations for powders in the slower ranges are talking about cast bullets in the upper jacketed velocities such as 1200-1300 fps with 120 gr bullets. IMO you cannot generally run 1200-1300 fps cast bullets successfully in the 9MM with fast powders. As I said in the beginning I think it's not so much a **** shoot but more the details.

[swynn]

I like 3.2grn of tightgroup with 147grn rn...Realy works well in my CZ 85C..

swynn

[Doble Troble]

I use Unique in the 9. 5.3 gr with the Lee 105 gr SWC for guns that will feed it. 4.3 gr with the Lee 120 gr TC for all others (they'll all feed the TC).

These loads are more accurate than I am, and make minor power factor. I like the 105 gr because it sips lead and makes really big holes.

I size at 357 for everything and seat to the crimp for the 105 gr, and to the base of the cone for the TC. Lube is White Label BAC. There are occasional easily-removed streaks of lead in most barrels. A stroke or three with Chore Boy copper around a brush and it's all gone.

[milprileb]

FecMec

I think barrel manufacture has a great deal to do with this choice of which powder/ bullet will do well in 9mm.

Same load out of High Power or Taurus is not same results in performance and leading. Even sizing same cast bullets
to each of the pistols for best bore fit does not make the same powder charge perform the same

Granted its in the details but for some folks BE works and for some its not ideal.