Scopes for BPCR

[Dragoon 45]

I did a search and read the earlier threads on the Leatherwood Malcolm scopes. I also did a web search on the D Z Arms mounts. I am considering buying a scope for my .40-65 but am somewhat confused. I will use it for BPCRS and the occasional 1000 yard match.

Reading the old threads, most commented that the Leatherwood Malcolm scope was a good scope but the mounts were shoddy to say the least. I contacted a supplier of the scopes, and was told by the salesman that a lot of the scopes are being returned for a lot of different problems, not just for the crappy mounts supplied by Leatherwood. The D Z Arms mounts though have a good reputation from as far as I can tell.

Also I have been told that the MVA scopes are very good quality, but they had problems with the mounts just like Leatherwood has.

Then once you separate the wheat from the chaff and decide what brand to buy, how do you decide what length is best? I have had people recommend everything from a 17" to a 30" tube.

Please educate me on these type of scopes.

Thank You.

[littlejack]

D45:
I bought and had mounted on my Uberti Hiwall 45-70, the Leatherwood Malcome 18" 6x.
It seems to be made well but not the usual fine finish as we are all use to with modern day optics. To me, this adds more to the period correctness of the scope. The scope is very clear.
The 3/4" tube is something I had to get use to, considering all of my other scoped are 1".
My rifle and scope will shoot a 1" ragged hole 5 shot group with my black powder loads.
The mounts as you have been told are not top of the line and I agree. I have mine sighted for 100 yards and can adjust the rear mount 9 marks and it is dead on at 200 yards. This is all I am after for adjustment.
I have no expierience with the other scopes.
If I had it to do over again and knew what I know now, I would buy the Leatherwood again.
Good shooting to you .
Jack

[NickSS]

I have a Letherwood 18 inch 6X that I have mounts on a Pedersolli Sharps and a C. Sharps 1885 High wall. The mounts that come with it are not the best in the world but are useable. The big problem is that the most you can get out of them is a little over 200 yards without installing different sized mounting blocks. This is with both a 40-65 and a 45-70 with black powder loads. If I were buying a scope for longer ranges I would either get a long letherwood and their optional long range mount or get a similar length MVA. Actually the long MVA is the way to go for 1000 yards as far as I am concerned. Several buddies of mine have 23 and 30 inch MVA scopes and they are first rate scopes for BPCR shooting.

[Gunlaker]

The Leatherwood mounts are not in the same league as the MVA ones. But the MVA mounts will set you back more. I've had both and am happy with my decision to get rid of the Leatherwood ones and buy an MVA.

Chris.

[Dragoon 45]

As I understand it, you have to use different sized mounting blocks under the scope mounts to get the necessary elevation for longer ranged shooting?

[Kitika]

I've been using my leahterwood 18" 6x and DZ mounts for a couple of months so far and I'm very happy with the set up. I can get enough elevation out of it to shoot at 800metres on my rifle but I think that is more because I have a rather short barrel and a slightly higher rear mount. Just gotta remember to "reload the scope" after every shot and so far has been very repeatable for changing it up and down to different ranges.
I have used it out hunting aswell and it sure does take out the guess work of open sights.

[lawsrl]

I have a Browning 1885 HIghwall Traditional Hunter. I added a Leatherwood 18" x 6 scope. Unfortunatelythe front dove tailmount seems too shallow to fit the factory slot. The single screw witch holds the dove tail block in, does not do the job well. Even with Lock-tight the block works loose. Is the Winchester and Browning dove tail slots (on the barrel) different sizes? Or perhaps the block that came with mthe Leather wood mount faulty?

[XTR]

I have a Browning 1885 HIghwall Traditional Hunter. I added a Leatherwood 18" x 6 scope. Unfortunatelythe front dove tailmount seems too shallow to fit the factory slot. The single screw witch holds the dove tail block in, does not do the job well. Even with Lock-tight the block works loose. Is the Winchester and Browning dove tail slots (on the barrel) different sizes? Or perhaps the block that came with mthe Leather wood mount faulty?

I sent one back for this exact problem, the dovetail was too short and no amount of tightening would keep it in place for 3 shots. The soft metal straight head screws buggered the first time you tried to tighten them and they eventually deformed the edge of the dovetail on the barrel. Nope, you got the same piece of **** that I got.

The scope seemed ok, but you need to get a different mounting system if you're going to use one.

[Jon K]

Kitika,

You need a taller block for the rear...

Jon

[Chill Wills]

If you want to plink or hunt the Leatherwood might do.
You will see zero of them at NRA matches. Not putting them down, it's just that they will ruin your day trying to match shoot with them. Why? The mounts are not up to it.

If match shooting is the goal, only the DZ or the MVA are up to it. The MVA has a LONGRANGE mount that will get you from 200y to 1,000y with out a block change on their 28" scope. I have one but almost never use it-always like to shoot iron sight class in longrange. I also use the MVA 28" Schuetzen rig, the first offering they put out. It is on my scoped mid-range and silhouette rifle. It repeats sight-settings to less then 1/4 moa.
MVA only has one level of quality - best quality.
Michael Rix

[rbertalotto]

I have two of the Leatherwood 18" scopes and one of the long versions. The long scope exists for shooting over 400 yds where the scope must pivot at the muzzle due to the extreme tilt of the scope needed to match the rainbow trajectory of a 45-70. Otherwise, with the 18" scope you would be looking at the barrel of the rifle as the rear of the scope is raised.

ALL the mounts offered by Leatherwood are terrible. I made my own. You can read about it here... www.rvbprecision.com

Forget about using any of these scopes in anything but good daylight. I tried to use a Lyman Ideal with the 18" this year for deer hunting. Early in the am and late in the afternoon the light gathering was so bad to be unusable.

Optics on all three of my scopes is great. No issues there. But you will need aftermarket mounts.

54673

54674

['74 sharps]

I have about 5K rounds through the long Malcolm on a 45-70 Sharps. No problems with the scope, and if there are any, it has a lifetime warranty. Mounts are not the greatest; however, once sighted in, I have no need to move things around as I do not compete. If I had to do it over, the MVA mounts look like they are well designed with great quality.

[Don McDowell]

With the 18 leatherwood you must use the DZ mounts to reach past 200 yds, and have repeatability. You also need to manufacture your own slide bar for the front mount , which really isn't a big deal. Using the recommended 7.2 inch spacing and front and rear block heights (as furnished in the package from BACO) being able to shoot to the 1000 yd line is really no problem.
I don't shoot scope very often on account of I never liked those 3/4 in scopes as a youngun, and getting older hasn't changed that.
I put my leather wood outfit together thru a series of gift certificates etc, so I was only out part of the cost of the mounts, but if I were going to do a scope from scratch , I'ld do nothing other than the MVA.

[Gunlaker]

I recently bought one of the MVA B5's for my CPA Schuetzen rifle. I'm really happy with that one, although I don't know how much distance you could get out of it.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I would imagine that using the 7.2 inch spacing and the Unertl type rings with a taller rear block than the front (as per the DZ instructions) 1000 yds would certainly be reachable. Hoping I can talk Sandyclaws into finding it within his budget and room on the sleigh to bring me one of those....

[XTR]

Don, The Leatherwood scopes are coming with a Pope rail standard now. That was another problem with their system, not only did the recoil of a 45-70 knock the mounts off of the rifle but the scope slipped in the rings every shot, and it wasn't designed that way then.

I've not done a side by side, but I've read that their glass may be better than MVA, it came off of the internet, so take it for what it's worth.

BTW, anyone know when MVA will get their site back up and running?

[Don McDowell]

The scope is supposed to slide in the rings on these malcolm type scopes, even the MVA's, that's the nature of the beast , the way they were built. Later models of the Lyman and Unertl had a spring that was supposed to return the scope to it's resting spot, along with the slide rail, sometimes it did sometimes it didn't.

['74 sharps]

Don, The Leatherwood scopes are coming with a Pope rail standard now. That was another problem with their system, not only did the recoil of a 45-70 knock the mounts off of the rifle but the scope slipped in the rings every shot, and it wasn't designed that way then.

I've not done a side by side, but I've read that their glass may be better than MVA, it came off of the internet, so take it for what it's worth.

BTW, anyone know when MVA will get their site back up and running?

I have not had a problem with scope movement, as shortly after I got the mount and scope, I replaced all screws with cap head hardened screws, available at any hardware store with a good metric screw selection. I shortened a hex key for the windage bolts, and I can adjust the windage without raising the scope to its highest position. The cap heads can be snugged tightly, and have never had a problem moving. Thread locker applied to the proper places, and all is as snug as a bug in a rug................

[Kenny Wasserburger]

As Mike Rix pointed out MVA is the only scope you see in the winners circle. A 23 inch MVA scope with standard Mount Schuetzen Mount, will reach to 1000 yards with no problem even on a 34 inch barrel. 2006 Raton Creedmoor Nationals. The paralex adjustment is needed in a major way. I adjust for each yardage. I used the same scope this year at Phoenix AZ.

KW
The Lunger

['74 sharps]

The MVA scope also gives you 4 choices of reticles. If I had to do it over again, I would go with the MVA system in a heartbeat........

[Old-Win]

Neither the Leatherwood with DZ mounts nor the MVA B5 will get you close to 800-1000yds. With different heighth scope blocks, then you could but it will be a dedicated rifle. It will either be a close range shilouette or a long range bptr. You could have some custom step block mounts made and then you could move the scope to account for the different distances. Bob

[Don McDowell]

Unfortanetely Bob, experience trumps speculation, and besides myself, I know at least one other fella with the 18in Leatherwood and dz setup that have no trouble reaching 1000 yds, and quite easily zero at 200.

[XTR]

Shooting long range, meaning over 600 yards, with anything often requires some special modifications. Both of the Nightforce scopes on my F-TR rifles sit on 30MOA rails in order to get enough elevation to get to 1000 yards. In the case of BPCR shooting we are talking about scopes with external adjustments, in this case the ring spacing has everything to do with how much elevation you get. The "standard" spacing for most of them is 7.2 inches with the 18 inch scopes*. Putting the long tubes and wide spaced mounts makes it a lot harder to get enough adjustment. Long tubes and wide spacing reduce your effective adjustment range. It may look cool but your limiting your practical usage.

To get to 1000 yards from a 100 yard zero with a typical BPTR bullet you need to have in the general neighborhood of 200MOA of adjustment, the DZ mounts have 225MOA of adjustment if you use a 7.2 spacing.


If you divide the number of minutes in a circle by the circumference of the circle defined by your mount radius, in this case the math is 21600/(2*7.2*π), you get MOA/inch of movement in the rear mount (in this case 477.4MOA/inch) The mounts are calibrates with .001 adjustments, you get .477 (~.5) MOA per line. You can substitute any spacing you want in there for the 7.2. It works to determine the value of the divisions if you put your soule sight radius in there for your tang sight too.

So, to make it work from 100 to 1000 you need to have the scope mounted on your rifle/set up to zero with in about 25 to 40 MOA of the bottom of the adjustment. If you get your rifle set up and your significantly above that 25MOA threshold you can use the same calculation to determine how tall your rear block needs to be cut, if you are close take it out and see where it maxes out. Whether or not you make it depends on your MV and and the BC of the bullet you are shooting.

*The reason it's "standard" is that most of the mounts are calibrated to allow .001" adjustments, so at 7.2" you get a functional 0.5MOA per line adjustment, double the distance, halve the adjustment.

[Don McDowell]

Need to call MVA , and see if their front rings are the same for both sets of rear mounts. If that's the case,it looks like it would be possible to take my DZ rear mount and slip right on that B5 scope.

[XTR]

Anyone heard when MVA may get their website back up?

[Old-Win]

Didn't just fall off the turnip truck, Don. If you have your DZ/ Leatherwood combo shooting from 200-1000yds, you are very lucky. If you do the math like XTR did, you will see that there is a tight window to be met in order for that to happen. Cataract mts used under normal circumstances, have roughly the same amount of elevation above the center of the bore as below it. In order to take advantage of the 200 minutes advertized on the DZ website, your rear scope block will have to be taller than your front block just as you've said. How much taller is your rear block and do you see your front sight?

[Lead pot]

I'm going to use my 28" MVA scope with the Creedmoor mounts at the next spring Lodi Creedmoor match on my heavy 22# sharps .44 I know it will reach the 1K but I look through the front hood on the 35" barrel.
Wonder if Cliff will let me shoot it?

Kurt

[Old-Win]

Kurt,
I will most likely be joining you with a scoped rifle. Since Lodi reversed the shooting order, I can no longer read the number boards at 1000yds in that late afternoon sunlight. Will be using my Hepburn with a small game Unertl.

[Lead pot]

That is the main reason I will use the scope. I cross fired on your target last time during the rain and even if squadded someplace other then the end I cant read the boards.
Wont make much diff anyway, first trip out with the .44 rem will be load development again anyway!

[Don McDowell]

Didn't just fall off the turnip truck, Don. If you have your DZ/ Leatherwood combo shooting from 200-1000yds, you are very lucky. If you do the math like XTR did, you will see that there is a tight window to be met in order for that to happen. Cataract mts used under normal circumstances, have roughly the same amount of elevation above the center of the bore as below it. In order to take advantage of the 200 minutes advertized on the DZ website, your rear scope block will have to be taller than your front block just as you've said. How much taller is your rear block and do you see your front sight?
Yes you go with a bit higher rear block ,just like DZ, BACO and others suggest. George Schmitz took a little farther and went with the next higher block over the recommended .275, and he's not even close to maxing out at 1000 yet can still get down to shoot 200 yds with no problem.
Yup it works, and works well, and I would imagine with the same block heights the MVA would work much better.

[Chill Wills]

To get to 1000 yards from a 100 yard zero with a typical BPTR bullet you need to have in the general neighborhood of 200MOA of adjustment, the DZ mounts have 225MOA of adjustment if you use a 7.2 spacing. [/I]

One of the reasons I like the longer traditional length scopes is to use the 17-1/2” scope block spacing the long scope affords. I can run the scope adjustments like the iron sight Soule, But on the scope the movement on the target is double that of iron sight movements. And at 17-1/2” that best case spacing set-up is hard enough to accurately adjust a small correction. Twice as hard in fact as the iron sights!

The scopes with the much shorter base spacing has a much greater impact movement per unit of scope adjustment and I watch guys struggle with that at matches. For an example, in a condition change that a small amount of correction is called for, they have trouble with or worse completely cannot resolve the small change required on the knobs and end up going much too far and reduce their score the next few shots trying to get their shots back inside the known universe. Of course I shoot against them so I recommend everyone get the very short scopes and mount spacing!

Take it for what it is worth.

[Don McDowell]

The small marks on these DZ turrets are quite useful. But it is true that on these short mounts a little goes a lonnngg way, and a person needs to do alot of testing with the thing to get the amount of movement needed. I think the biggest draw back to this Leatherwood/DZ setup is when you return the scope back from the recoil I'm not satisfied it lands in the exact same spot each time.
I would really like to try the MVA B5 in their unertl mount, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a much more solid and repeatable setup.

[Lead pot]

I got a 28" MVA back in 07 and it spends more time off the rifles then on them. Man if I have a hard time staying on target with it wonder where I would end up with a short scope????
I just put it back on the .44 100 REM ST. in hopes on getting used to it so I dont cross fire because I cant read the number boards anymore, maybe I just better leave those idiot knobs alone once i'm on center after the sighters and hold off for the changes.

[Don McDowell]

Leadpot, I think that mildot recticle that Kenny uses is perfect for that sudden and varying changes, when you can't trust the conditions to actually move the scope adjustments.
This DZ mount has 25 marks on the turret , and it takes about two revolutions to move the turret one of the big marks on the staff, so once a person assigns movement to those markings, it's not a big deal to reach up there and make corrections, but it does take some time to not just start spinning the thing like you do with a soule sight.

[Gerald C]

I use a DZ mounts with 7.2" spacing ( 38-50 ) shoot to a thousand and still zero at 100 I shoot alliance every year. go to MVA web site go to thier scope mounting page and it tells you all you need to do. as for the DZ mounts they are a micrometer thus every mark is .001" every 1 whole turn is .025" 4 turns is 100" at 7.2" spacing every 002" is 1" at a 100 or 10.47" appox at 1000

Gerald C

[Lead pot]

Don.

I have the mill dot scope. but you must understand the mill dot scales and the scale edged into the radicals must be accurate.
The dot is 3/4 MOA in diameter @100 yds, 7.5" @1000yds. 3.6 MOA C/C on the dots @100 yds 36" @1000yds. If the scope is true and you can remember what all the spacings stand for and you know the target ring diameters you can hold off in good shape with out making adjustments.

[Don McDowell]

Yessir that'ld be a big help.

[Chill Wills]

Don. I have the mill dot scope. but you must understand the mill dot scales and the scale edged into the radicals must be accurate.
The dot is 3/4 MOA in diameter @100 yds, 7.5" @1000yds. 3.6 MOA C/C on the dots @100 yds 36" @1000yds. If the scope is true and you can remember what all the spacings stand for and you know the target ring diameters you can hold off in good shape with out making adjustments.

That is a good way to handle some of the small, quick and shifting wind changes. I like the mill-dots. You just have to have a good memory so you don't get lost in the conditions. It sounds like you have a good set-up and need to come west to use it on a silhouette/LR weekend.[smilie=l:

[Lead pot]

You can make up a range card for quick reference for 8-9-1000.


C/W I planning on it.:smile: I played that game twice and got my plow polished twice :? so I turned to the long range critters.


This year I'm heading back up north to Alaska after Alliance till the cold drives me down, figure this will be my last trip up there but if your matches fall right on my way down I will swing in and shoot some. It can be on my way home with out to much of a detour.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

WuAAT?? No Quigley for you this year?

[Hiwall55]

I've got the 28 inch MVA with the creedmoor mount and bases on 5 different rifles. It's a snap to take it off and switch to a different gun and it will shoot past 1000 yards with ease. they sell more 28 inch than all the other lengths combined. on 2 Sharps wity the same barrel taper it will stay with in MOA at 300 yards when you switch from one to another rifle. Don't get to much better than that,Bill

[Lead pot]

WuAAT?? No Quigley for you this year?

Yup...sure would like to have rubbed elbows with the white Buffs :-)
I do need to make some arrangements so Roland Ernst "BossGun" Who is coming over from Germany to shoot the Q to get some 215 Fed primers and 10 # 1.5 Swiss I have for him so he and his friend can reload. But I figure I getter get back up there this year while I can still do what I go up there for.

Bill

I agree changing between rifles is not a problem. I have several rifles tapped but took the blocks off, but the scope was close when the switch was made. It's the tendency of over adjustments for not being able to see the marks and the small knobs that are the problem with the MVA mounts for me.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt get that stuff to Dick he'll likely make sure it goes to the right spot. The walleye will should still be on the bite over here at Greyrocks, so with you guys not going and if the Hydraulic family doesn't go, we'll likely stay home and go fishin or hopefully put up hay.

I was surprised the one time I did mount this leatherwood up on the 44 , and shot it at 300 yds, the setting was very close to what the 45-70 had for 300 yds. I took the blocks back off of the 44 on account of that rear one won't let me get down to 200 with the soule sights, and blocks the barrel sight completely.