C. Sharps (the other white meat) long

[Bear Claw]

Ok so it wasnt that funny,,

On to the point, I have been reading the posts here about Shiloh, Pedersoli,
Taylor, etc; and have not seen C Sharps mentioned, If my memory serves me they were around B-4 shiloh, Anyway anyone have an opinion about them? I am looking to buy an 1874 pattern gun and while I would love to have a shiloh I am not sure I can stand the wait, ( 18 mon. per Lucinda ) I can get a Pedersoli here today but (please dont be offended) I kinda have a fobea about spagetti shooters.

I know, I know, I have looked at them they are a lot nicer than they use to be
and I am looking at them with a new attitude, While reserching I found that C Sharps is still around, and has a gun in stock fitted out the way I want for about $2800, Pedersoli $1800, Shiloh $3000 + the wait.

If not for the wait I would buy the Shiloh, even over the c sharps and the pedersoli is just my instant gratification thing kickin in,,,So I am very interested in what you folks know and say about the C Sharps as I am now leaning that way pretty hard.....

Bear Claw:drinks:

[omgb]

You needn't wait for a Shiloh, they have a shop sales area and there is a dealer in Bozeman IIRC, who carries their rifles. While they will not be custom, they might be close to what you want.

C. Sharps and Shiloh have similar bloodlines I think. I don't remember the whole story but I think Wolfgang had a hand in both of them. At any rate, they are both fine rifles. I have a Pedersoli and it shoots ever bit as well as either of the other two. That being said, the difference between the two is like the difference between a Miss Universe and your typical wife. One may look hotter than a $2.00 pistol but the odds are, that it may perform no better or maybe not as well if you catch my drift. It's all about the relationship you forge with the gun, that is what brings out the true potential of the firearm. Pedersoli barrels and actions are simply the best there are, right up there with the top custom makers. Where they fall short is in the area of cosmetics. They are good to very good while Shiloh is perfection in metal and wood.

[NickSS]

I own two Shilohs and thee C sharps 1875s and a C Sharps 1885 High Wall Winchester Clone. All are excellent rifles that I have been enjoying for almost 20 years. I have also seen some of their 1874s both at their factory show room and on the fireing line. They are very similar to Shilohs in Quality and accuracy. My most shot 45-70 is a C Sharps 1875 with a 28 inch heavy round barrel That I have owned shince 1991. It broke one fireing pin in over 15000 rounds (mostly black powder) That is the only trouble I have had with it. My C Sharps 1875 are all plain jane rifles as I got them to shoot and hunt with and I do not like beeting up a rifle with fine wood. My Shilohs are a different mater both have fancy wood and only go to the target range when I have a long range match.

[Pat I.]

I have a like new Shiloh LRE in 45/70 with MVA long range vernier rear and globe front sites I'm thinking of selling it (sites are over $450). If you're interested PM me.

What Sharps were you looking at for 3000 bucks?

Pat

[joeb33050]

I have a C. Sharps 1875 in 45/70, have shot it up to 600 yards with black and smokeless. It has never failed me so far. I get 5 shot 5 group averages around 2" at 100 yards from the bench with a scope, some groups down to .8". Broke 1 firing pin dry firing it, immediate response from the factory. I would recommend C. Sharps.

joe b.

[6pt-sika]

I've handled quite a few of both over the last 7 or 8 years and never owned one , well until my 50-90 gets here in the summer of 2008 .

However I like them both and just decided I wanted to try the Shiloh first [smilie=1:

I have a feeling if the 50-90 and I can get things worked out to suit me there may be a 50-70 Lone Star in my future after that or a CPA Schuetzen in 32-40 .

But if I get a CPA you can bet I won't shoot BP in it :drinks:

[Bear Claw]

Thanks for the replys

Looks like I am going the right way, Pat I, I was looking at the Quigley (of corse :-D ) What I want is a non-pistole grip non-cheek rest gun, more like the plain jane stuff an average hide hunter would have bought in cal 45-70 or 45-110.

If I get lucky my wife will let me buy both:roll:

[SharpsShooter]

Another vote for the C. Sharps. I have a 75 in 45-70 that will put 10 shot into 1 1/2" groups at 100yds with open sights regularly using black powder and the 457125. Never had a moments trouble from it.

SS

[Bullshop]

I'll prolly get whipped for this but I'm gonna say it. I think the 75 is a better action than the 74. No Quiggley didnt use it but I believe it to be stronger and it has a faster lock time. I see it as a side hammer high wall.
OK flame away, its been kinda boring anyway.
BIC/BS

[floodgate]

Bear Claw:

Bill Goodman, at <www.goodmanguns.com>, or (406) 587-3131 has standing orders with Shiloh and keeps several of them in stock at any time for immediate delivery. Worth checking with him to see what he has on hand.

floodgate

[floodgate]

Re: the two comments above on broken firing pins (one from dry-firing) in C. Sharps 1875's. Are the FP's the same dog-legged construction as the "standard" Sharps? I've been eyeing these for some time, and would like one in either .40-70 SS or in .30-40.

floodgate

[montana_charlie]

I have been reading the posts here about Shiloh, Pedersoli, Taylor, etc; and have not seen C Sharps mentioned, If my memory serves me they were around B-4 shiloh, Anyway anyone have an opinion about them?
In the Beginning there was Darkness...oops! (Fast-forwarding a few billion years...)

In the begining there was Shiloh, and it lived in Farmingdale. It was a company that built reproductions of the old guns originally made by C. Sharps in the 1800's.
And it came to pass that Shiloh moved to Big Timber, Montana, where the reproduction continued.
Eventually, there was a falling out among the 'main movers' at Shiloh, so they split the blanket and (down the street) C. Sharps was born.

I don't know what they disagreed about, maybe one of them snored too loudly at night. But there are some differences in their guns.

The C. Sharps receivers (for instance) are machined from solid stock, then case hardened. The Shiloh receivers are investment castings. (Perhaps it was Bryant's desire to switch to that form of production which caused the split.)

C. Sharps buys their barrels, while Shiloh produces their own.
(I have the impression that it is a limitation on barrel production capacity that is primarily responsible for the 'wait' at Shiloh.)

Both products are well-made, and available in many configurations...and either has that tiny chance of being a 'lemon' which requires some form of warrantied 'adjustment'.

It may be that you can buy a custom-made gun from C. Sharps, if you have the money and that is your desire...I don't really know.
Shiloh, on the other hand, provides an extensive list of 'options' that you can choose from...to build an a-la-carte rifle...but will not (for example) provide a pistol gripped shotgun butt on a 'standard grade' round barrelled gun - even though a shotgun butt is available for their Business Rifle. I find that surprising from a company whose customers think of it as a 'custom' shop.

I believe that Shiloh did custom work in the past, but perhaps that was before the corporate split.

If your main interest is 'pretty'...or if you are equally divided between pretty and accurate...Shiloh and C. Sharps can make you happy.

If you prefer to spend your money on 'small groups', and save the price of 'cosmetics' for buying powder and moulds...Pedersoli won't disappoint you.
CM

[Boz330]

Got my first C-Sharps in 91 a Highwall in 40-65 and a 75 a couple years ago in 38-55. I have been real happy with both. The Highwall is hard on firing pins but it has been shot a lot. Have not broken one in the 75 YET.
My shooting buddy regularly kicks my butt with a Pedersoli so they are not slouches either, (not a fault of the C-Sharps), but the nut behind the butt.

Bob

[kodiak1]

C. Sharps will do Custom Work and they have a ton of Calibers to Choose from.
I agree with Bull Shop on the 75 being a stronger Action than the 74. If you buy the C. Sharps it is the only Rifle that can carry the Old Reliable Logo on it, Hre got it in the Split and Shiloh or anyone else cannot legally use it.
Mine is a 40-90 SBN. model 75 and it shoots Great, Feels Good and Fits me to a Tee.
Don't be afraid to order one.
Ken.

[Bear Claw]

Hello All

You wont belive this,,, Was telling the wife my problem, She asked if C sharps had what I want in stock ( They Do ) Soooooooo she say's WHY dont you get the C Sharps now AND (rept.) AND pay the deposit on the Shiloh and get them both ( bless her she knows how much I want the Quigley ) She said this way you will have one to play with till the other is ready...........


I think I will keep her......A very Happy Bear Claw:-D

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Charlie,

Couple things,

The Shiloh's-C. Sharps Old reliable guns were, as current Shilohs Investment cast. Wolfgang Drodge was the driving force and founder, John Schofsthall was just the distributor-partner. It is of interesting Fact that John S. does own the letterhead and rights to the C. Sharps old Reliable monker and Logo. When C Sharps started making 74's again on their own, they started to use bar stock, this was after the split. For along period of time you could only get 1875's from C. Sharps Arms. Point is mute as the fact a bar, is poured and also extruded steel, both are melted at one point or another. Your correct that current C Sharps actions come from Smith Enterprises where they are milled from forgings, the actions and internals are assembled in Big Timber. Pedersoli's are also forgings.

Wolfgang and John S. were in together in the begining and thats who split. The Bryan, not bryant, family bought Shiloh from Wolfgang a good bit of time after the split, Wolf continued to stay on for a while until the Bryan Family got Shiloh up and running. I personaly, was taken though the factory by Wolfgang on Several occasions the last time was when he had sold the factory and I had ordered my first rifle this was in 1991.

As for the reasons for wait, there are several. in years past the time took to machine an action was a 8 hour day, now with the C&C mills two actions come out about every 40 mins. The other is quite simple Shiloh does not cut corners and a Semi custom rifle takes time, just to finish the stocks takes quite a bit of time.

Also Shiloh has their own foundery now in the past this caused bottle necks in production waiting on foundry work, Shiloh now Pours one day a week just to make parts.


As for the real differences between the 3 Companys guns, it lies in the heat treatment methods, Shiloh's is heads above the others. This company builds actions to test and have blown up, the presures that require one to fail are so far above the others that its not even funny. I have personaly seen the results from Hodggens Test reports. You could not get me to even lay behind a Pedersoli if someone was using Duplex or Smokless loads in one. I have personally seen one Shiloh that was blown up by a customer, he was using a full case of 5744 in a 45-110 and it let go on the 3rd shot the action split at the bottom and blew the barrel partly apart. The 348 head markings on the case he was using, are premently etched into the breech block its quite the thing to see. IT HELD the shooter walked away with nar a scratch.

That Breech block will fit in a brand new action with out any problems, I know I have done it took it out on the floor and picked up a random action and tried it just to make double sure I tried it in several others it fit in everyone.

I have no idea what C Sharps warntys their guns at.

Perdersoli does not reconmend 45-70s to be loaded over 45,000 cup.

Shiloh's are up to Ruger #1 loads.

I have had personal Dealings with Mr John S. and C Sharps Arms in the past that convinced me to get my Sharps elsewhere.

Shiloh has of last count, donated over $400,000 in rifles to this sport and the Firearms-hunting-shooters industry.

The other two C Sharps-Pedersoli dont even compare. Not even combined will they compare. Thats not my opinon thats a fact.

My choice is to spend my hard earned dollars with a company that supports my rights and my sport. Then to spend with companys that dont even come close. Shiloh's custmer service, ha the rest dont have one compared to them. Try to get Mr Peranglo on the Phone when you got a problem with your Pedersoli. Or John S. good luck. Kirk Bryan stands behind his familys product like no other firearms manufactor today.

As you had passed on some incorrect information I felt compelled to correct your errors, the other is my simple opinion and a few facts.

As for spending $1800 on a Perdersoli, anyone that does that is nuts.

My last Shiloh the business rifle that is posted in pictures on this forum was $1874 in actuall price. It shoots very well better then I can hold offhand for sure.

My old Creedmoor rifle is 13+ years old has over 20,000 rounds on it. Granted it got a new barrel at 18,000 rounds oh by the way Free of Charge! I have wore out 2 breech blocks, broke 2 firing pins and one lever return spring. All replaced under factory warranty. This gun gets lots of hard usage, load workup and lots of matches are shot with it from buffalo gong shoots to Creedmoor. 45-110's with bp, run 3 times the chamber pressures a standard bp 45-70 load does, they are hard on breech blocks.

Looking at the past year results at matches:

Billy Dixon match: won with a Shiloh 45-110 new Range record set at 1538 yards 5/6 hits the group measures 3 feet thats sub MOA.
NRA Nationals: Creedmoor Matches #2 Team A pair of 45-110 Shilohs
National Scope Champion Creedmoor Shiloh Sharps 45-110
Day one Creedmoor First Place Shiloh Sharps 45-110 260-3x
Day one Creedmoor Top Scores at 1000 yards Irons: Shiloh Sharps 45-110
Day one Creedmoor Top Scores at 1000 yards Scope: Shiloh Sharps 45-110
Day two Creedmoor Top Scores at 1000 yards Scope: Shiloh Sharps 45-110
Grand Agg for 1000 yards Creedmoor nationals Scope: Shiloh Sharps 45-110
PS this is the second year in a row at 1000 yards the agg for the Scope class.

Nationals Pedersoli 5 at 200 Challenge: Scope Class winner Shiloh Sharps 45-110

As a mater of Record 6 indivual Gold medals won with A Shiloh Sharps in just the Scope class plus the National Title in Creedmoor.

Sage Brush Match:
3rd overall won with A Sharps 45-110 37/40
Scope Class won for the second year in a row with a Shiloh Sharps 45-110 this rifle Also shot a perfect score at 1000 yards at this match one of only 3 such ever fired.

So my advice is to buy what ever you want, but when it comes to a 1874 style Sharps, can you really afford to not own a Shiloh? I spend my money on guns the same way I do for my tools. I buy once and only once so I buy the very best.

Kenny Wasserburger
2006 NRA Creedmoor Scope Champion
Proud Shiloh Sharps Owner

[500bfrman]

If shiloh would just make me a 50-140 I could die a happy man:mrgreen:

[L Ross]

I own a 74 from each company and both are completely satisfactory. I dealt with Mr. Schoffstall during the construction of my rifle and was treated very well. The C.Sharps has a Badger cut rifled barrel that are made in my home state and that pleases me.

Shiloh's reputation is beyond reproach. One tiny little thing I noticed when I had my rifles apart for cleaning. The internal recesses of my C. Sharp's breech block are completely finished and polished as any visible exterior surface, the Shiloh is not. Means nothing as far as function make of it what you will.

L Ross

[Bullshop]

Re: the two comments above on broken firing pins (one from dry-firing) in C. Sharps 1875's. Are the FP's the same dog-legged construction as the "standard" Sharps? I've been eyeing these for some time, and would like one in either .40-70 SS or in .30-40.

floodgate
floodgate
No not the same, similer but different. I think many pins are broken because the hammer is not brought back to half cock before lowering the lever. When this is done the pin is extended and will catch on the bottom of the chamber and shear off.
Both models have to be set at half cock before droping the lever.
I have put 1000's of rounds through a 75 and never replaced a pin. The 74 is different. Even with proper use they seem to take a beating and often break with heavy use such as in compition. The breaking pin was one of the reasons the trapdoor won the military trials over the sharps.
BIC/BS

[BruceB]

My wife gave me a Shiloh for Christmas back about 1980, when they were still made in New York. Serial number is 34xx. At that time, our dealer in Edmonton Alberta had a dozen or so Shilohs on the rack when we visited from the sub-Arctic.

I wanted a .50-140, and the rifle was marked .50-3&1/4".....but it was actually chambered in .50-2.5 (.50-90). I decided to stay with the 2.5" chamber. The rifle never shot very well over the years, no matter what I did. It had a "paper-patch throat", amounting to a very long freebore, and slow twist of 1 in 38".

Just three years back (I think) I finally contacted Kirk Bryan at Shiloh, yep the owner hisself, and asked his opinion.

Remember, the rifle was made YEARS before his ownership of Shiloh began. Even so, he immediately offered to re-barrel my rifle to any caliber they chamber, with my choice of weight and length, for HALF-PRICE! I took him at his word, shipped the rifle, and had it back in two weeks for less than $300 including shipping. It now shoots beautifully as a .45-70, and I am a lifetime fan of Shiloh Rifles Inc.!

Quality people, and quality rifles. I'd like to visit the factory one day, as I hear that visitors are well received (to say the least).

[6pt-sika]

If shiloh would just make me a 50-140 I could die a happy man:mrgreen:


I talked with the people at C Sharps about having them make me a 50-140 before I did anything . And they were very receptive .

However I think the 50-90 I just ordered from Shiloh is most likely gonna be as big as I wanna go [smilie=1:

[powderburnerr]

. I had a 140 and while it was a blast to shoot it was real spendy a full case of blaclk was in the neighborhood of 150 gns and you needed a lot of lead in front to get a clean burn . my pp bullets ran close to 800 gns . it was a real big push and the rifle weighed close to 13 # . it was easier to shoot than my 11# 50 -90
my 90 has the old twist and I have a bullet coming for it that will be in the 480 gn range, and pp it will cast to `496-498 wrapped and be as close to origional as I can get it cut.... it should work well in the slow rifleing......Dean

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,
Couple things,
I have had personal Dealings with Mr John S. and C Sharps Arms in the past that convinced me to get my Sharps elsewhere.

Shiloh has of last count, donated over $400,000 in rifles to this sport and the Firearms-hunting-shooters industry.
Thanks for the corrections, Kenny.
It stands to reason that you will be more familiar with the inner workings at Shiloh than I will ever be.

When I first began looking for a Sharps rifle, I didn't know that anyone other than Shiloh existed. Somewhat like you (with C. Sharps), my 'dealings' with Mr. Bryan...and several Shiloh gun owners...convinced me that I would not enjoy being part of that fraternity.

I am aware of Shiloh's habit of providing rifles as prizes at the high profile matches.
You would probably agree that the $400,000 you mentioned can be spread over a decade (at least)...and I would not be surprised to learn that Bryan's accountant highly recommends the 'donations'.
Even if listed under the heading of 'advertising', they make a nice deduction from the gross for a sharp businessman.

When I noticed (last month) that you had joined us, I kinda wondered 'why'.
Being aware of your reputation for fine shooting, extensive experience, and respect from other top-notch shooters, I was surprised to see you 'slumming' among us.
You have a strong following on several other sites, and you are certainly too expert in the BPCR arena to be searching for help from us.

I supposed (at the time) that your 'look at my medals' (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=11545) opening thread was primarily meant to establish yourself as the irreproachable 'guru' that we had been in need of for so long...someone whose words carried even more weight than the excellent advice we have been receiving from Dale53 (and others).
When you get around to posting those 'how to' threads which teach us how to increase our expertise, we will be even more thankful for your presence.

Until then, advice like, "As for spending $1800 on a Perdersoli, anyone that does that is nuts." will (I am certain) be much appreciated by all of us.
CM

[Bear Claw]

Shoot Guy"s I didnt want to start a fight :confused:

For sure I have read every answer to my post and I value ALL the input good and bad,,NO comments here have so far offended me,,, I guess I belive thats why there is so much diversity to life,,If you like a ford dont buy a chevy.....

As I posted yesterday my problem is over on what to buy, but rest assured if I find a deal on a Pedersoli I would buy one, One poster offered a possable deal on what I am sure is a super nice Shiloh, but after a couple of pm"s we agree"d that it was not for me(And thank you sir for that offer) no harm no foul.

I know two of you have your hackles up a little, but I ask ya please let it slide
I am gona be new to BPCR shooting/owning and just want all the tips and advice I can get, Thats why I come to this board you are all have insite and x-periance
to share and most folks can sort the wheat from the chaf, even me, I also read every book I can find on a givin subject.

I am not shooting any one down and thanks to ALL of you for your post"s I will be more than happy to continue talking with any one about this subject, I am becoming obbsessed with BPCR & ofcorse CB"s

Bear Claw:drinks:

[Bear Claw]

Damn looks like I need to larn ta spel

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bear Claw,

Dont ya worry laddie, my hackles are not anywere nears up:-D.

Charlie, dont worry what I am doing here friend, I think its a free forum, And I too Know Dale McGee from many many years ago on Shooters.com, a great guy and one of the most knowledgable shooters around. Like any other shooter I am here to expand my knowledge base it would appear that you are offended by that.


I can stand behind every statement I have made as to Sharps 74's and the manufactor of such. Some of Your statements were incorrect and I simply in a friendly manner pointed out some corrections, so my being here already done some good:mrgreen: .

As for my record on helping other shooters, the record is well known, and documented, and pretty plain to see, All one has to do is read. And my plan is continue to do so here also on this forum, when I can. All one has to do is ask or on some questions I will bail in and offer my experiance.

MUCH LIKE I did on this Thread.:???:

AS for me sluming or what ever here on this forum, you must not have too high of an opinion of Cast Boolits then or the posters hereon?

That would be a good indication that this is your problem and not one of mine, and with that I bid you a good day and will refrain from anymore discourse with you on this subject.

However let me say the door is open for any decussions on casting, loading, annealing or anyother bpcr related issues. I am more then willing to share my limited knowledge on anything I can share.


Kenny Wasserburger

[montana_charlie]

As for my record on helping other shooters, the record is well known, and documented, and pretty plain to see, All one has to do is read. And my plan is continue to do so here also on this forum, when I can. All one has to do is ask or on some questions I will bail in and offer my experiance.

However let me say the door is open for any decussions on casting, loading, annealing or anyother bpcr related issues. I am more then willing to share my limited knowledge on anything I can share.
Now there are a couple of invitations that would have really made your introductory thread shine.

I seem to remember seeing your name as one of the people trying out Dan Theodore's grooveless bullets. Maybe I have that wrong. Please correct me if I do.
But if you DID manage some success with that design, I would certainly like to benefit from your experience...but in another thread, so as not to further hijack this one.

If you have something positive to share, perhaps you could pick up this old thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=9907) from last fall...?
CM

[Jon K]

Bear Claw,

Have you looked at Bill Goodman's website? He lists what is available and what is coming, and he can add options to his current orders, to meet your needs, which could shorten, or eliminate the wait. Bill Goodman is very easy to talk to. His mark up is $150, seems reasonable to me, you can't expect him to do it for free. I just bought a gun from him, and would not hesitate to do so again. BTW he has more than just Shiloh.

I assume you already called Shiloh to see whats on the shelf, but that changes often, while you are shopping around and weighing input from others, keep calling Shiloh.

BC just remember buy whatever lites your fire, it's your decision and gun.

Charlie,

As I read Bear Claws thread, he asked for input and thoughts on C Sharps, Taylor, Shiloh and others. And as I recall this forum is open for input and opinions. The last being an open ended word. So I don't see how Kenny is hijacking this thread.

Kenny,

I thought your post was very informative and interesting. I have heard folks on this forum and others get their feathers ruffled, but I guess that's everywhere, and I try to just take it like a grain of salt.

I like others am here to learn from others experience, as well as give if I feel I can contribute.

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon

[longhorn]

Gee, Charlie, you must have had a bad time with one of the Bryans.....I'd love to have a singe-set trigger highwall in 30-40, but 3 or 4 guys I respect have reported such infuriating dealings with John Schofstahl (sp?) of C. Sharps that I won't order one from them as long as he owns the place--hasn't C. Sharps been for sale for years? To their credit, I remember that the editor of Rifle commented a few years ago that a C.Sharps '74 in that he received to test was clearly the finest made rifle ever to enter his office--high praise from someone used to handling fine custom rifles.
C. Sharps and Shiloh both build extraordinary rifles-I own a Shiloh.

[MT Chambers]

I have a C. Sharps Highwall in 45/70 and a '74 C.Sharps in 50/90, and have had good dealings with that outfit, i think that the fact that the barrels for the c.Sharps are made by Badger puts them 1 up on the competition. The fact that the competition gives out guns as prizes only highlights the fact that they may promote their product better. usually both sides of this kind of debate have a stake in it somewhere, my only stake in it is some great hunts I've had with my C. Sharps and would recommend them to all.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie,
So I don't see how Kenny is hijacking this thread.
It was not my intent to say that he did. Actually, I see the conversation between Kenny and me as a 'joint' hijack, which I am to blame for continuing. Thus, my invitation to shuffle over to a different thread if Kenny has anything to say on that topic...and where you are welcome to join in, if you care to tag along.
CM

[Nrut]

Bear Claw...
Heres another consideration "Axtell Rifle Co."
www.riflesmith.com/rifles.html (http://www.riflesmith.com/rifles.html)

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[carpetman]

I thought C Sharp was a musical note. Not sure if there is one of those on a mandolin? My mandolin playing seems to be stalled on getting the G string tuned. Everybody keeps saying it sounds like my G string is too tight and I've been trying to tune it for years. But I keep getting the same complaint and the darn thing is already so loose that it sags. Thus I haven't progressed to find out if there is a C sharp on it.

[6pt-sika]

I thought C Sharp was a musical note. Not sure if there is one of those on a mandolin? My mandolin playing seems to be stalled on getting the G string tuned. Everybody keeps saying it sounds like my G string is too tight and I've been trying to tune it for years. But I keep getting the same complaint and the darn thing is already so loose that it sags. Thus I haven't progressed to find out if there is a C sharp on it.


And I always thought a "G String" was something a stripper wore [smilie=1:

[Bear Claw]

Bear Claw,

Have you looked at Bill Goodman's website? He lists what is available and what is coming, and he can add options to his current orders, to meet your needs, which could shorten, or eliminate the wait. Bill Goodman is very easy to talk to. His mark up is $150, seems reasonable to me, you can't expect him to do it for free. I just bought a gun from him, and would not hesitate to do so again. BTW he has more than just Shiloh.

I assume you already called Shiloh to see whats on the shelf, but that changes often, while you are shopping around and weighing input from others, keep calling Shiloh.

BC just remember buy whatever lites your fire, it's your decision and gun.

Charlie,

As I read Bear Claws thread, he asked for input and thoughts on C Sharps, Taylor, Shiloh and others. And as I recall this forum is open for input and opinions. The last being an open ended word. So I don't see how Kenny is hijacking this thread.

Kenny,

I thought your post was very informative and interesting. I have heard folks on this forum and others get their feathers ruffled, but I guess that's everywhere, and I try to just take it like a grain of salt.

I like others am here to learn from others experience, as well as give if I feel I can contribute.

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon

Yes sir I did and thanks for the tip, he didnt have what I was looking for but I posted this the other day, Seems my wife had a solution that I cant pass-up...
So I post it again here for anyone who missed it....

now I need to learn about boolits for them ie: PP cast, etc. guess I better buy some new Books.......

BTW I Have since ordered my Shiloh ( A Quigley ) and will be ordering My C Sharps next week :mrgreen: :-D [smilie=1:




Hello All

You wont belive this,,, Was telling the wife my problem, She asked if C sharps had what I want in stock ( They Do ) Soooooooo she say's WHY dont you get the C Sharps now AND (rept.) AND pay the deposit on the Shiloh and get them both ( bless her she knows how much I want the Quigley ) She said this way you will have one to play with till the other is ready...........


I think I will keep her......A very Happy Bear Claw

[Kenny Wasserburger]

MT Chambers,

Quote:" i think that the fact that the barrels for the c.Sharps are made by Badger puts them 1 up on the competition."

Guess I will have to disagree with you on that one.[smilie=1:

Check the listings in Creedmoor or perhaps silhouette, Cant find a single C. Sharps in the listings of the winners, not ONE. You will find Pac-Nor barrels, Shilohs Stock Barrels, Kreiger's even the occasional Green Mountain and Badger's but none of them on a C. Sharps.

SO much for the badger puting C. Sharps 1 up on the competition. In Actual Competiton the C. Sharps is not competiting.:confused:

Dont get me Wrong Erine Stahlman is a great guy makes Excellent Barrels. I personaly Know Erine, and have one of his fine barrels on my Daughters Hi-wall.

Kenny Wasserburger


PS MC I did post on your bullet Thread!

Kenny

[SharpsShooter]

Well shucks, I guess my 75 C. Sharps that manages 10 shot groups just a bit over MOA with plain old 457125's and goex cartridge while using open sights, should be relegated to use for a fence stretcher.[smilie=1: Obviously it isn't good enough for national note.


:coffee:

SS

[Dale53]

Kenny;
Thanks for the kind words. Coming from you that is kind of like an Award!

To all:
Fellers and gals, we are all a bit brand loyal, but we do NOT need to get personal. I have a '75 C. Sharps in 40/65 that is a VERY fine rifle. I have friends that have Shilohs and they point out that the record shows they are fine rifles also. I admit, however, that my favorites are, of all things, a Browning BPCR 40/65 and a Browning Creedmoor 45/90. Yeah, I know, not very traditional (but MY!! how they do shoot!).

This kind of reminds me of Photographers and their equipment. I am a Canon man, but recognize those Nikons are pretty fair cameras, also. To hear some tell it on both sides of the issue, THEIRS is the only brand.

Ford and Chevrolet, same thing.

Please let us keep things civil here. We need ALL of your input. I have learned a great deal from top shooters over the years and truly appreciate it. However, I have had absolute newby's come in with a different perspective and offer a solution that really works to something us "Experts" have been stumbling about for years. So-o-o, we really need EVERYONE to share their experiences. There are things to be learned from all.

Lecture over..., now lets SHOOT!!:drinks: :drinks:

Dale53

[waksupi]

One I've not seen mentioned, is the Garret Arms Sharps. Long out of production now. The one I had years ago, I removed the primer block, and took about a quarter inch out of the hammer throat. Put on an Old Montana Rifle Works, not MRC, checkered the stock properly, and poured a pewter nose cap. Shot very well. It fooled Austin Monck, who owned probably a hundred original Sharps rifles.
Some argue apples and oranges. For the most part with the BPCR's, it is a good barrel, and the guy behind the rifle, that makes them good or bad.

[Boz330]

Some argue apples and oranges. For the most part with the BPCR's, it is a good barrel, and the guy behind the rifle, that makes them good or bad.[/QUOTE]

Ditto on that. It comes down to the old addage that no one can live long enough to make all the mistakes himself, (trust me I've tried), so why not learn from the other guy. [smilie=1:
I have 2 C-Sharps rifles and am very happy with them. While I'm not on a level with Kenny or Dale and probably never will be I enjoy the game and trying to get the most out of them.:drinks: In my case the nut behind the butt is the big problem, not the rifle.

Bob

[45 2.1]

When you've shot just about everything and tried most everything, your going to find out that what you feed that rifle is about the most important thing once you have your shooting basics down. The most important for accuracy is the fit of the boolit to the cartridge, throat and bore. Close doesn't cut it. Get it exact and you will have more accuracy than you can possibly use, regardless of the firearm used assumeing that firearm is put together correctly.

[boommer]

this kinda like ford chevy dodge roll the dice! they all are a crap shoot!!

[Bear Claw]

Thank you all for the input,,,, Please look at my post about Nevada Member

Bear Claw

[omgb]

Hmm, I'm sure glad I didn't pay more than $1400 for my Pedersoli 45-90 Billy Dixon. Shoot, if I had I'd have dangerous, over-priced, symbol of my own ignorance and stupidity that just might blow up if I loaded it beyond factory recomendations. [smilie=1: OK, now that my tongue is firmly out of my cheek; to pay a Shiloh price for a Pedersoli is foolish and wasteful unless one simply must have the gun today. That being said, I had my Pedersoli, a good set of Soule sights, dies, a mould (Lyman) and a Leupold spotting scope all new for just a hair under $2100 delivered. Since i'm not shooting in competition and since I wanted an accurate but affordable gun, I'm not kicking. I thought long and hard about a Shiloh and may still buy one now that I'm better heeled than I was in 03. However, I sure don't feel I got beat in the deal I made and I'm not one bit sorry I bought my Pedersoli.

I shoot duplex loads in it all the time and I don't sweat it. 5 grains of RL7 and a case of GOEX is simply not generating any where near max pressure for this action. The cases aren't expanded any greater than straight BP loads, the primers look identical and velocity is within 75 fps or straight BP loads. I am convinced that this is a safe load.

I don't doubt Kenny's accuracy concerning the various strength values of the three actions and lord knows I can't argue with him about acuracy but when I bought my gun, the value was on the side of the Pedersoli for what I intended to do with it. With the decline of the dollar over seas, that seems to have changed things. I also had no idea of the contribution to shooting that Shiloh was making either. So, today, unless I got the same deal or better, I'd go with the Shiloh.

[EDK]

I went to visit Shiloh and C. Sharps in October 2003. After looking around Shiloh, I went to C. Sharps and then headed out of town. Somehow the van made a U-turn and ended up in Shiloh's parking lot. My 50/90 Long Range Express arrived in February 2005.

Shiloh has VERY ENTHUSIASTIC AND OPINIONATED SUPPORTERS because their product is excellent and they really work hard at customer service. When you walk in the door or telephone them, it's like visiting the relatives you like back home. When I overpaid a dollar in cash for a Shiloh belt buckle (shop was crowded with pre Quigley Shoot people) and was in my car, Heather Bryan ran out the door to catch me. Little things sometimes tell you a lot.

Just my experience for what it's worth.

[6pt-sika]

To each his own ,my first and hopefully not my last will be a Shiloh in 50-90 . The next if I am fortunate enough to get another may be a C Sharps , it might also be a Lone Star Rollingblock or it might be a CPA 44 1/2 . Or even on a longer shot a Ballard 1885 in 500 Nitro Express . Thing is I haven't had one in my hands that I "didn't like"[smilie=1:

However whichever I get or don't get I'll in all likely hood , like it a whole lot :drinks:

[Buckshot]

................What I thought was interesting was several years ago I was talking to Dave Gullo and he told me he used an IAB Sharps 45-70 to hunt with:-). He said it was so beat up and disreputable looking that several people thought it was an original conversion Sharps.

................Buckshot

[Bear Claw]

I went to visit Shiloh and C. Sharps in October 2003. After looking around Shiloh, I went to C. Sharps and then headed out of town. Somehow the van made a U-turn and ended up in Shiloh's parking lot. My 50/90 Long Range Express arrived in February 2005.

Shiloh has VERY ENTHUSIASTIC AND OPINIONATED SUPPORTERS because their product is excellent and they really work hard at customer service. When you walk in the door or telephone them, it's like visiting the relatives you like back home. When I overpaid a dollar in cash for a Shiloh belt buckle (shop was crowded with pre Quigley Shoot people) and was in my car, Heather Bryan ran out the door to catch me. Little things sometimes tell you a lot.

Just my experience for what it's worth.


I like that,, Tells ya alot about people, try to get treated like that at ( just name a place ) I have been on the phone twice w/ shiloh and have been treated very nice,,,, I just HATE " daudling service" We have a local gun shop here & the employees act like they are doing YOU A FAVOR taking YOUR money.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

SharpsShooter...how does your BPCRS rating compare with Kenny's?
Actually, how does all of the C. Sharps (got two words for them...garbage truck!!)
and Pedersoli achievements compare with the Shiloh records in the game?
Personally, I think the Bryan's donation policy far outshines everyone else in the game combined. The key here, is to compare the initial cost to the resale value...it's not what you pay for something that matters as much as what it costs you to own it...and resale potential and value. The Pedersoli and Uberti's are only a good deal if they are here and now and under two-thirds the cost of a Shiloh. I can't even find their custom shop or list of options for a rifle on their websites. Oh, they don't have one! Silly me, I thought they would! A twenty-year old Shiloh, in good shape, will sell for about the same price as a brand new one.

Rich
DRSS

[SharpsShooter]

[QUOTE=Idaho Sharpshooter;147963]SharpsShooter...how does your BPCRS rating compare with Kenny's?

It doesn't ....Never shot against him, couldn't say and actually that isn't even the topic at hand. I shoot to compete against myself and no one else. I did the competition route with Hunters Pistol Sillywet many years ago and won the State Championship in my class three years running, but thats a different game entirely........[smilie=1:



Actually, how does all of the C. Sharps (got two words for them...garbage truck!!)

Garbage Truck is a bit harsh I'd say. I still say it is the man, not the machine. I feel like if Kenny was to sit down with a C. sharps and develope a load and dedicate the trigger time to the task, he would have no problem posting a respectable score (I suspect he would agree, but is welcome to correct me), perhaps you could also



The key here, is to compare the initial cost to the resale value...it's not what you pay for something that matters as much as what it costs you to own it...and resale potential and value.

Something that nice should not be resold, let's put it on on display and charge admission so the unwashed masses can view it[smilie=1:

Call it brand loyalty or whatever you wish. Everyone has limitations on what they are willing to invest in their respective hobby and if they are happy with their choice, who are we to say that our choice is better. Individualism is what keeps the shooting sports so interesting. It would be boring if folks showed up with the same thing on match day. I have rubbed elbows with folks with Hepburns, Shiloh's, C Sharps, High-Walls and Ballards and the gun did not make them better folks. They already were good folks you see. I have yet to meet a BPCR shooter that I'd call snobbish because of what they gun they shot.


SS

[Bigjohn]

WELL!, have I seen some parochial Sharps Shooters here in this thread. [smilie=1:
I have a solution; you could all send me an example of your most favourite Sharps with a case of ammo and I will do the comparison tests.[smilie=1:
Now, it might take me a while to report back to all of you; maybe a lifetime but even if I have to make the report posthumously; I will. :-D

Just PM me for shipping details, :kidding:

:coffee: On a more serious side; I own a Browning BPCR in 45/70 with Badger Barrel (one of the first releases) and a Pedersoli 1874 'Sharps' Business rifle in 45/70 with their 1 in 18.25" twist barrel. This rifle will put ten rounds inside of 1.5" AT 100 Yds.

Now! I display my parochial side; my desire is to own a Shiloh 1874 'Sharps' in 45/70 but I don't at present due to 1) lack of funds, 2) delay between order and delivery, 3) unstable politicians and 4) problems in getting them 'downunder'.
If one in the apropiate calibre and excellent condition was to appear on the market here, I would find the funds post haste. :coffee:

Now, don't get me wrong, but the Browning and the Pedersoli are NOT 'SHARPS' Rifles IMO. They are filling a gap and they work. Plus I am enjoying the shooting of cast boolits with both black and white powders. It's the challenge which I am enjoying and maybe a hunt soon. :coffee:

:drinks:

John

[montana_charlie]

SharpsShooter...how does your BPCRS rating compare with Kenny's?
Actually, how does all of the C. Sharps (got two words for them...garbage truck!!)
and Pedersoli achievements compare with the Shiloh records in the game?

You said "BPCRS", Idaho...if I understand correctly, you are asking for 'results' that pertain to 'Silhouette competition'.

I don't keep up with that kind of information, but Mike Venturino does. Your query reminded me of a recent post of his, so I copied it to paste for you here.

If reading it is too much of a chore, it says that both C. Sharps and Pedersoli were among the top ten guns on the line...and the winner was a Meacham.
CM

While I'm sitting here this morning trying to avoid doing something useful, I thought it might be informative to post what the top 10 shooters at the BPCR Silhouette Nationals were using in 2006.

I always find this stuff interesting because to do that well those 10 guys had to have been doing something right.

Four used High Walls. Three were custom ones on original actions and one was a Meacham. The Meacham .45-70 was used by David Barnes, the overall winner. 2 used Shiloh Sharps. 1 used a DZ Arms Hepburn. 1 used a CPA Stevens, 1 used a C. Sharps M1875, and 1 used a Pedersoli M1874 Sharps.

8 used .45-70s. 1 used a .40-65 and 1 used a .45-90.

2 used a combination of Paul Jones and RCBS moulds. (The RCBS was for chickens and the PJ for all else.) 2 others used PJ moulds. 2 used Brooks moulds, 1 used Lyman, 1 used NEI, 1 used Borton & Darr, whatever that was, and 1 used "other" whatever that was.

Of the 9 .45 caliber shooters the bullet weights ranged from 500 to 558 grains. The single .40 caliber shooter used a 433 grain bullet.

All 10 shooters used Swiss powder, with David Barnes reporting his was 3F.

Five shooters used Walter's vege fiber wads. 1 said just "veg" wads and 4 used plastic.

Five shooters used SPG. 1 used "Possum Innards" whatever that was, 1 used GS, 1 used Matthews, one used "home made" and one used Knoell.

Four shooters used Starline brass, four used Remington, 1 used Winchester, and one used "Buffalo Arms". (That was the .45-90 guy.)

6 used Federal primers - exact type unknown. 2 used CCI - mostly likely the BRs. 1 used Winchester primers, and winner David Barnes used Remington 2 1/2s.

4 used MVA Soule rear sights, 2 used Hoke, 1 used Kelly, 1 used Ron Long, 1 used Baldwin, and 1 used "other."

The point spread from #1 to #10 was only 4 points - 91 to 87.

[SharpsShooter]

Wow! MC, those Meachams are sure fine lookers. I was looking over their sillywet model and noticed that they use Badger barrels as does C. Sharps. Thanks for the 2006 results post too.


http://www.meachamrifles.com/images/rdis1.jpg

Classy rifle doncha think?


SS

[Bigjohn]

SharpsShooter; you cerainly know how to make some people jealous. Is it one of yours? Or are you just baiting people?:kidding:

So don't just keep is in suspenders, give us the biographry. :roll:

Looks like a High Wall action with double triggers. And kinda' prutty lookin'.

[smilie=1:

John.

[floodgate]

I like the Remington "Hotbox" in his avatar, too. Stone ugly, but it has CHARACTER, and that side-lever was the most convenient action of all - until you stuck a case. Had one years back in .45&70, made from pieces of four different rifles, and sorta wish I hadn't traded it off.

floodgate

[montana_charlie]

Wow! MC, those Meachams are sure fine lookers.
Classy rifle doncha think?
You got me there, SS...that rifle is easy to admire, no matter what you might like best.
CM

[SharpsShooter]

SharpsShooter; you cerainly know how to make some people jealous. Is it one of yours? Or are you just baiting people?:kidding:

So don't just keep is in suspenders, give us the biographry. :roll:

Looks like a High Wall action with double triggers. And kinda' prutty lookin'.

[smilie=1:

John.

Oh no John...that purty toy is waaaaay beyond my means. Base price for that one is just under $4,000.:shock: You are correct, It is a High-Wall with doublesets. I honestly just posted the picture for folks that might have never seen or heard of them I, personally have never laid eyes or grubby paws on one other than the photos.:-D

Here is the URL if ya want to go drool

http://www.meachamrifles.com/


SS

[Bigjohn]

With some of the websites for makers of Fine Shootin' Iron which I visit; I do have to regularly clean the drool off my computor desk and grubby finger marks off the screen.:-D

No matter; that sure is a nice lookin' piece of work, easy on the eyes.

When I have a chance I will visit their site.

I have a Loooong wish list, short pockets, long arms and too short a life span. Pity there aren't some makers of THAT level downunder.
Even tho' we do have some good gunsmiths.

:drinks:

John.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

the "garbage truck" post is an insider's joke...you would have to have been around for the "divorce" to really appreciate it.
C. Sharps has been for sale for years, and the warranty does not seem commensurate with the price, unlike Shiloh. C. Sharps building in Big Timber is an assembly plant, everything is out-sourced. Shiloh is a factory, things are made there. Their foundry is next door, their wood is shaped there, they even make the screws there. All they buy is wood, and barrel steel. The Bryans are there for the long haul, as a family they will live and die in that town. Once you get past "good enough" the company begins to matter. The Bryans care about what they are building, and the sport; it's not just a way to make money for them.

Rich
Shiloh fan

[rigmarol]

I recently picked up my very first 45-70. I went with the Pedersoli "Quigley" and am having a ball with it.

I walked into the store to by a gun, I bought it and I'm shooting it. I live a simple and happy life.

Maybe one day I'll have to try one of the others but I'll be shooting and enjoying my hobby in the mean time.

Bear Claw, I know you've already got your approval from the boss, and I couldn't be happier for you. So I won't throw water on your excitement. I can't wait to hear how your guns shoot for you.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Rich,

As Always your much more eloquent then I am!:drinks: The Garbage truck oh boy that was a good one. As these days my sillywet ranking? in the tank dont shoot it much anymore after making AAA then bumped then bumped again after making AAA a second time? Lost interest still enjoy it, but not my passion anymore.

Longrange is where its at always was in truth. There, well My record is pretty clear as to my ranking.:-D

I look forward to meeting this Sharps-shooter guy' someday perhaps he can show me how its done. Last match I just shot in, I only avg 1.4 MOA at 550 yards. Sides maybe he can give me And Steve Garbe some lessons on 100 rod shooting.

Sharpshooter, I must admit if I was to take the time, with A C. Sharps I might be able to get one to shoot like you mentioned.

However knowing what I do about the outfit I would not touch one let alone spend my hard earnd cash on one.

As for a Pedersoli, well built rifle for the money-a few years back yes! Not so now in my opinion not what they cost today. And to hold one feel heft one, they are cluby in my hands compared to a Shiloh or even a C Sharps.

Rich is correct in that C Sharps is no factory in Big Timber, were as Shiloh's, the foundry is right next door and they make everything there except growing the wood and the barrel steel. Much different kind of operation, and the people, the family, sorry there is no other firearm company in the world that compares.

To me this is a lifetime passion-persuit, I figure I cant afford to not have the best. I work hard to make a very good living and Play even harder. Dont Smoke-dont chew anymore, and Drink only in the company of some good friends and get to as many long range matches as I can.


you all have a good evening!

Kenny Wasserburger:castmine:

[SharpsShooter]

[QUOTE=Kenny Wasserburger;149377]
I look forward to meeting this Sharps-shooter guy' someday perhaps he can show me how its done. Last match I just shot in, I only avg 1.4 MOA at 550 yards. Sides maybe he can give me And Steve Garbe some lessons on 100 rod shooting.

If I recall correctly, I made no reference whatsoever to "showing you how it is done" You imply that I did and it is both untrue and in poor taste. I made no claim to being even in your ranking or realm of ability or Garbes for that matter. Read the post again, it is in english.


Sharpshooter, I must admit if I was to take the time, with A C. Sharps I might be able to get one to shoot like you mentioned.

That was intended as a compliment to your skill as a rifleman. It is patently obvious that you have skillsets to accomplish the task. Notice that I can disagree with you and still give you a compliment,


I dislike the misrepresentation of my post. It was baiting of course and now you have my answer.

SS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Sharps shooter,

ahhh never mind![smilie=1:

You know I set down typed out a real Eat----t remark and its not worth it my friend.:drinks:

we all got our preference and well Rich and I just know more of the rest of the story is all.


Have a good evening,

Kenny Wasserburger

[MT Chambers]

I don't know about these folks that think they know it all and can slam other products, I'm sure that they are both good products and I'm sure that there are many self proclaimed experts that can shoot alot of diff. makes well? I'm sure there are people that own Meacham Hi-walls, or CPAs that would turn their nose up at a cheapo Shiloh or C. Sharps......It's just ones opinion and nobodys right and nobodys wrong. The main thing is you're happy with what you've got, and you don't have to prove anything, most of what you hear from the so-called experts is hot air anyways.As this thread has proven.

[John-n-va]

I have read this thread with much interest. One point I see popping up alot are folks complaining about the long wait for a Shiloh. I look at it this way.....I waited 14 months after finally deciding on Shiloh for my rifle. I actually got a little break by trading with another guy who wanted a little more time to come up with the money. During that 14 months I read everything I could possibly find on BPCR's. I learned to anneal cases and cast 540 grain boolits. I made informed decisions on what to get accessory wise and spent the time getting 100% ready for the day my rifle arrived. I fired up an old lathe at work and made myself a compression die and a cool reloading press mounted wad punch.

It was like being a kid again waiting for Christmas to come only it lasted over a year:-D The wait wasn't a burden for me it was a fun time. I actually refined my boolit casting skills by starting to cast for my 9mm and an old 7.65 Carcano I had laying around. Before that I had only cast for muzzle loaders.

When the day finally came and I opened that case and there she was, it was Christmas again for an 8 year old getting his first BB rifle:-D It has only gotten better since that day.

I came very close to buying another brand and was right down to planning a roadtrip to the nearest Cabelas but changed my mind at the last minute. I am confident that if had I decided on another rifle that I would have been just as happy.

Believe me, the wait and the resulting productive time was almost as much fun as finally holding my Shiloh.....almost:-D

[NickSS]

Everyone has a preference and I love my Shiloh rifles but I also love my C. Sharps rifles. I hapen to have more C. Sharps rifles than Shilohs only due to the waiting period and my nature to want something right now. I got my first C. Sharps when the wait was two years for a Shiloh and four months for a C Sharps. Gun for gun I would take a Shiloh everytime but I have been totally happy with the shooting characteristics of the C. Sharps products. In fact I shot my 38-55 C. Sharps high wall at the last 200 yard reduced target silhouette match I went to last weekend and shot very well for me with it. However, my long range rifle is and will continue to be a 45-90 Shiloh Sharps long range express as its my most accurate long range rifle.

[montana_charlie]

During that 14 months I read everything I could possibly find on BPCR's. I learned to anneal cases and cast 540 grain boolits. I made informed decisions on what to get accessory wise and spent the time getting 100% ready for the day my rifle arrived. I fired up an old lathe at work and made myself a compression die and a cool reloading press mounted wad punch.
I consider that to be an admirable use of your time.
My experience was similar, but about half as long.

Having used your 'waiting time' well, I am sure that your first question on a shooting forum was to clear up a vague point, or to pick out the advantage of one 'trick' over another - something specific that the more experienced guys could speak to.

IMO, that beats the guy who opens up with 'Hi, all. Finally got my new (pick any name) and I need you guys to tell me everything I should to know about it. Don't be shy...all advice appreciated.'

That kind of opening is what you would expect from a guy who just won a Sharps (or something) as a door prize...not the guy who's been saving up (or waiting) for a year or more.

I guess this is a short rant about the instant gratification types, who want to get the whole education...all packaged up...before the next commercial.
CM

[John-n-va]

I appreciate the compliment Charlie. Although I think my first question over on the Shiloh forum was probably one that the old timers had answered a couple hundred times. Mr. Ray Newman quickly straightened me out with his vast knowledge and posted enough internet links to keep me reading for at least 12 months:-D

I do feel that the waiting time was well spent and I feel like my rifle is a little more special since it was made for me....I had several conversations with Heather and Lucinda making some changes and getting some advice. You just can't get that type of interaction in a gun shop or especially Cabelas.

My 9 year old grandson already knows that granpa had that rifle special made and that someday it will be his. He went with me last weekend to shoot it and told me I would never hit that target so far away (100yds). He was amazed that I put 2 touching in the bull and 2 touching just outside the bull and a doggoned flier in the 9 ring. The 4 shots went into 1 3/8". Should get better as I am still working up a load. He kinda wants to shoot her but I don't think he's quite big enough for a 45-90 and don't want him to develop a flinch so young.

I have a good friend who lives in Ronan. He wants me to come out and pan some gold. Wish it wasn't a 3 or 4 day drive!!!! Howcome they put Montana so derned far away?:confused:

[montana_charlie]

I think my first question over on the Shiloh forum was probably one that the old timers had answered a couple hundred times.
They've ALL been answered a couple hundred times. You and I just never managed to find those answers...until we did a few things, and discovered the right question.

At least you didn't start off with a question that required a couple hundred answers...

How come they put Montana so derned far away?
That depends on where you start out from. I came up from Texas...but I took the long way.
CM

[Bear Claw]

I don't know about these folks that think they know it all and can slam other products, I'm sure that they are both good products and I'm sure that there are many self proclaimed experts that can shoot alot of diff. makes well? I'm sure there are people that own Meacham Hi-walls, or CPAs that would turn their nose up at a cheapo Shiloh or C. Sharps......It's just ones opinion and nobodys right and nobodys wrong. The main thing is you're happy with what you've got, and you don't have to prove anything, most of what you hear from the so-called experts is hot air anyways.As this thread has proven.

You are so right....

Isn't it great that you can come to places like this forum,read, ask questions, and learn from fine folks who dont get their nose up in the air just cause you can afford a gun or ask a dumn question with out getting put down.

In a sport thats always under attack you would think we could all stick together,but some still look down their nose's and make thinly vailed rude comments about ( you name it ) for whatever reason.

I know I have asked my share of dumn questions here, but then If I knew it all I wouldnt be here....I guess it's kinda like CB radio's " there is always some jerk who has to stir trouble or put people down to make up for their own falts.
OH well jerks come & go let's just ignore em

Bear Claw:drinks:

[MLR]

I'm to busy having a blast shootin to be worried bout what others think of my rifle. I'm having fun and thats what counts.

Michael

[highwallbo]

I received my first Shilo about one year ago(Sporter #3 .45-2.1)Finest rifle being built in this country bar none.Ordered my second Shilo 5Nov05, on it's way to me now(LRE 32" half/round .40-2.5)
I think every time I get a new Shilo I'll order up another and always have one being built:Fire:

[appleseedgunsmith]

Perhaps the issue of c. Sharps not placing in the top 3 has nothing to do with quality. Seems to me that the winners are a rather small, tight-knit group of repeating competitors, with a lot being from the western states (montana, idaho etc). Perhaps the issuse is nothing more than these select few simply choose NOT to use a c. Sharps. I've read many forums and even own a c. Sharps. And I can't say I've heard a lot of grumbling about their quality(except for maybe a fellow with a bent firing pin). They certainly use the same barrels as other winning guns have used. perhaps the folks in charge there don't have the best demeanor. Perhaps their business practices are questionable. Something tells me that if the mighty mlv or someone else WANTED to win with a c. Sharps......they could and would.

['74 sharps]

Perhaps the issue of c. Sharps not placing in the top 3 has nothing to do with quality. Seems to me that the winners are a rather small, tight-knit group of repeating competitors, with a lot being from the western states (montana, idaho etc). Perhaps the issuse is nothing more than these select few simply choose NOT to use a c. Sharps. I've read many forums and even own a c. Sharps. And I can't say I've heard a lot of grumbling about their quality(except for maybe a fellow with a bent firing pin). They certainly use the same barrels as other winning guns have used. perhaps the folks in charge there don't have the best demeanor. Perhaps their business practices are questionable. Something tells me that if the mighty mlv or someone else WANTED to win with a c. Sharps......they could and would.

+1 I was looking into buying a C Sharps last year at around Christmas time when they were doing a 10% discount. Had several communications from them, and all
was handled by them very well. Decided not to order, as at that time, I did not have a good handle on bp shooting. Do now, as my Eyetalian '74's (Pedersoli) will shoot moa @ 200yds ( my longest available ) if I do my part. I'm happy as a duck in water with those rifles, and will stick with them.:coffee:

[appleseedgunsmith]

Let's put the pepsi vs. Coke challenge to an end. How about a quantitative analysis of the differences between c. Sharps and shiloh INCLUDING accuracy, tolerances, durability. Perhaps a torture test. Someone out there with the money and moxie to make it happen & publish it? Whaddya say MLV? Kenny?..........Bueller?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Gee Whiz,

Last time I posted on this Thread was 5 years ago fellas.

3 years ago I found out I was terminally Ill. I been busy with that. I been busy shooting too, FWIW, I wore out 2 shiloh barrels and factory replaced both at no charge-Original Owner. You will not get that at any other maker. Period.
All are fine Rifles C Sharps I own one a 22, I do not own a Pedersoli, but they are a good rifle no longer the bargin they used to be with Euro vrs Dollar thing.
A little FYI: I have won 2 of those 5@200 that Pedersoli used to host at Raton with My old Shiloh 45-110, one with a Grease Groove Bullet and 1 with Paper patch. The PP Group is still a world Record in that match for Paper patch btw, 2008. My good friend Jim Kidwell has won 3 or maybe 4 of them with his Shiloh 40-65. Something of a testimony of the Accuracy of a Shiloh, however, it also boils down, in the end to the quality of the ammo, and the Shooter. One thing to note, A Pedersoil has never won that match?

Last major Match I placed well in was Phoenix in March this year, the end of the first day 2 of the top 4 rifles where Shiloh's the others were Rem Hepburn and a Original Sharps Borchardt, I do believe with Badger Barrels. I also know at the end of the match, there were at least 3 shilohs in the top 9 the #2 Slot was a Shiloh so was #8 and #9, and a the hepburn and Borchardt along with a browning or two. No C. sharps no Pedersolis. A few weeks later I spent 4 days in CCU at the local hospt, with Pneumonia, been rough year since.

Give it a rest.

The Lunger

[cal50]

Bear Claw:

Bill Goodman, at <www.goodmanguns.com>, or (406) 587-3131 has standing orders with Shiloh and keeps several of them in stock at any time for immediate delivery. Worth checking with him to see what he has on hand.

floodgate



+1 on the Mr.Goodman option.

I currently have a #1 sporter in 45-110 on order and should arrive shortly.

I always get a kick out of the various Sharps threads becasue they almost always gravitate to which one makes the "best" rifle. That is a somewhat loaded term and needs a little more specificity.

Shiloh does make an extreme quality / handmade rifle in their one and only shop. They make the entire gun minus growing the wood. Its truly a handmade item.
The fit of parts and wood is the standard to which others are compared.

C. Sharps makes excellent guns as well. I think they use Badger barrels now and are top quality. Fit in finish is top notch and perhaps a tad below Shiloh. Before C.Sharps moved there are some early guns that have a generous amount of free bore in the breech area which can affect accuracy if your a target puncher.

Pedersoli-

A LOT of what I call Sharps snobs like to slam the Pedersoli rifles and I always get a kick out of it. Pedersoli makes excellent guns as well. Their barrels are top quality and tapered / choked at the muzzle. Their receiver are FORGED which neither the Shiloh or C.Sharps rifle are ( cast steel). Pedersoli guns hold numerous records and they are solid competitive rifles. They use to be a good value but recently their price has been creeping up. The Pedersoli wood is nice but not as nice as either of the other US makers. Fit & finish is very good and not "as nice" as the other guys.

I own a Pedersoli Quigely in 45-90 and its an excellent rifle. I have my Shiloh 45-110 on order becasue I want the 110 and had some play money and wanted a Shiloh because I admire precision and quality (toolmaker by trade).

I like them all , they all shoot better than most guys behind it and like to see people shooting anything Vs talking about who's is better.

[gandydancer]

the owner of C Sharps (John Schofstall) used to be co owner of Shiloh arms with Wolfgang. at one time both C Sharps & Shiloh shops where about 200 yards apart from one another in Big Timber Montana not sure if that is the case today. and C.Sharps use Badger barrels on their rifles. Shiloh makes their own barrels in house. (thanks to cal50 for pointing this out to me) and one is as good as the other in MO & american made. GD

[cal50]

the owner of C Sharps (John Schofstall) used to be co owner of Shiloh arms with Wolfgang today both C Sharps & Shiloh shops are about 200 yards apart from one another in Big Timber Montana. and they both use Badger barrels on their rifles and one is as good as the other in MO & american made. GD



Shiloh has their own rifling equipment and I am pretty certain they make their own barrels.

[gandydancer]

Shiloh has their own rifling equipment and I am pretty certain they make their own barrels.
you are right. the last time I was in either shop was almost 20 years ago. GD PS I also like the ones made in Italy they shot very well.

[Gunlaker]

I don't believe that the C. Sharps recievers are cast. Their web site ( it's improved greatly in the last couple of years) describes their manufacturing process. They currently use Badger and Green Mountain barrels. Mine are all Badgers but I think I might order an 1885 with a 1:12 twist Green Mountain barrel soon :-).

Chris.

[TXGunNut]

Wow. The thread that won't die.
I've learned (in another shooting discipline) that the easiest way to shoot well is to shoot what the winners shoot. Our friend Kenny Wasserburger has made that point quite well. Folks at Shiloh seem to build the rifle that shoots the best, IMHO it looks the best, and customer service is unrivaled.
Only two out of three matter to me, I'll never shoot to the full potential of a Pedersoli, original Sharps, C. Sharps or Shiloh Sharps. I can't afford a safe full of Sharps rifles but I can afford the best.
As soon as I figure out which vernier sight combo works with my middle-aged eyes I'll be in touch w/ Lucinda @ Shiloh Sharps.

[XTR]

The nut on the stock is more important than any other part of the gun. You can't build a gun or make perfect bullets that will find there way to the 10 ring on their own. The F-TR class National Champion this yr shoots a Savage action with an accutrigger, not a $1500 custom action with a $300 trigger. It's what he likes. I won one of the matches at the F class nationals this yr in Raton with a trued R700 in a McMillan A5. Trust me on this, it aint the bullet or the gun.

One thing you should know if you've been in other shooting disciplines, people who do this a lot will spend a lot of $$ to shoot what they like, and if the get a hard on for someone they don't tend to let it go either.

KW is vocal and thinks Shiloh is the best, maybe they are, but I'd look for myself, he's made it pretty clear that it wouldn't matter if CSA was making rifles to .00001 tolerances he wouldn't buy one, he's a Shiloh man .

Personally if I was building from the ground up to make a 1000 yd BPCTR rifle I'd go to CPA. I think the Stevens is a better target action than a Sharps, the hammer is center line and as I understand it the lock time is faster, and I've never read anything but praise for the owners. (Note, that I've thought this through and may end up there one day if I decide that the BPCTR competition is something I want to pursue)

I just got a used CSA Sharps, it's put together pretty darned well. It's got plain Jane wood, but the price reflected that. This one is going to be a shooter.

[EDG]

I believe the Browning Highwall is superior than any of the other actions used except maybe an original Highwall.
If the original Browning barrel will not shoot as well as you think it can be replaced and you will have the best action and barrel combination possible.
Why anyone uses a 74 Sharps has to be nostalgia because it is certainly not a an engineering or technical advantage over a Highwall.
KW lives right down the road from Shiloh so it is pretty convenient for him to behave the way he does.

[Bullshop]

EDG
I agree and always have. The 1885 Hiwall action is unquestionably potentually more accurate than an 1874 Sharps for several reasons.
#1 lighter hammer
#2 shorter hammer throw
#3 faster lock time
#4 straight line fireing pin
and maybe other factors all add up to greater level of potential accuracy.
I also enjoy and utalise the fact that the hiwall is a stronger action that handles modern smokless powder cartridges as well as black powder cartridges.
It was the darling of custom smiths as a platform for varmint rifles before factory varmint rifles were readily available. To my eye those custom builds from the three or four decades post WW2 are most pleasent to look upon of all such purpose built rifles.
Sorry but I cant just limit my gun nuttyness to any one type of powder. So burn me at the stake but when you pile up the fuel for my burning add a little smokeless to the black.

[Don McDowell]

There's a noticable difference between the "fullness" of the stocks on a Shiloh and a C Sharps. The CSA's are a bit thicker in the forearm and wrists, and the comb is a bit sharper than a Shiloh.
So it really comes down to which one fits the shooter better.
In the past there has been some customer service problems with CSA, nothing compared to the problems we've read about here in recent months with the Italian makers, but problems enough to sour folks anyway. There have been some folks with problems with Shiloh, but they certainly seem to be in the minority.
I have 2 shiloh's and a CSA, and an Italian in the sharps, 2 original rollers (one rebarreled ), and a couple of the miroku built 1885's. Next rifle will be another Shiloh.

Not sure why folks with little to zip experience with bpcr would choose to attack KW on this subject,:groner: obviously they haven't been aware of his past shooting accomplishments, and certainly haven't spent any time with him on the firing line.
The claim that someone would choose a Shiloh because they live just down the road, is rather stupid as actually it's probably only 150 yds further to the C Sharps building, and anyone who had actual experience would know that.
If a highwall is ones pick, then speaking from experience I'm not real sure there's any reason to get any other than the Winchester bpcr or find one of the Brownings in good shape. If a person can't make one of those shoot and shoot extremely well, they're either really crappy shots, or couldn't build a decent quality reload if their fairy godmother did it for them.

[Lead pot]

XTR.

It takes more then a center hammer and fast lock time to make a rifle shoot.
A heavy side hammer that the 74's have are more then capable to shoot quite well if the person behind the but plate can control the rifle with correct procedures.
Here is a target with two groups shot, the top one is a 4 shot dropped the sights and shot the 6 in the 24 ring. Those two groups were shot using the Lawrence rear barrel sights and a blade front sight.
I don't remember what this particular target was shot at anymore but at a minimum it was at 138 yards or the 200 yard.
This was shot using the .44-2 5/8 bottle neck and I have similar targets shot with the 7 other Shiloh's from the .40-2.5 to the .50 2.5 they all shoot good enough to get this kind of group.
Lets face it everyone will say their particular rifle made by what ever company will shoot better then the other's company what ever it is. I have other rifles made by Browning (2 .40-65 and a .45-70) and even a Pedersoli they all shoot good but the 8 Shiloh's have the edge. They just shoot !

EDG.

Kenny lives a long way down the road from Shiloh about 4 1/2 hrs of Wyo, and MT speed limits :bigsmyl2:



http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0403.jpg

[Gunlaker]

This sort of thread will generally never die because it's the nature of shooters to argue about which equipment, loading technique, etc is best. :-)

In the end it's the guys who consistently shoot the highest scores that I pay attention to.

I also think that there are many reasons to choose a brand. The Shilohs are excellent rifles and the owners are really nice people to deal with. That counts for a lot to me. I find the same at CPA. I've dealt with Gail a couple of times and she is an incredibly nice person as well as a knowledgeable shooter. My CPA is not even close in "fit and finish" to my Shiloh rifles, but it's looking to be a very accurate shooter. I'll take the accuracy over a few rough spots on the outside every time. I also like my CSA 1885 rifles although my first one had issues. I will still order from them again though.

Chris.

[Bullshop]

Would anyone disagree with the -POTENTIAL- for improved accuracy with an 1885 Win over an 1874 Sharps quality being equal no matter who made the rifle? I just dont think it can be denied. All shoot well and is well known and prooven but still the potential is there in favor of the 1885 Win. Same would apply to the Stevens action over the Sharps
Fairy Godmother!!!! That is funny!!!

[Don McDowell]

Brownings singleshot is nothing more than a 75 sharps with the hammer moved to center. Borchardt did the same thing with the 75 only covered the hammer in the breechblock.
But as with most things a person needs to make his/her pick of rifle and go from there , first pick don't work out try again....[smilie=w:

[PS Paul]

I think hearing about Kenny being terminally ill can put things into perspective on this argument a little, eh?

How are you gettin' on, Kenny? If you are still competing, that, I figure, is a good sign?

As a shooter, I would be happy to own ANY Sharps OR Pedersoli. So lucky is the man who gets to own and shoot one, in my estimation.

Good luck to you there, Kenny and good shootin'!

[Gunlaker]

But as with most things a person needs to make his/her pick of rifle and go from there , first pick don't work out try again....[smilie=w:

I agree with that one Don.

With respect to potential accuracy differences between action types I'd bet that there is a difference. Under practical conditions I've not been able to tell the difference in my various rifles. I expect that the torque and recoil of a typical 45 cal BPCR cartridge induces enough shooter inconsistency to negate the differences in action type. I'm also not likely a good enough shooter to notice.

I've been playing recently with smaller cartridges like the .32-40. Maybe there is a noticeable difference there.

Chris.

[XTR]

I agree with that one Don.

With respect to potential accuracy differences between action types I'd bet that there is a difference. Under practical conditions I've not been able to tell the difference in my various rifles. I expect that the torque and recoil of a typical 45 cal BPCR cartridge induces enough shooter inconsistency to negate the differences in action type. I'm also not likely a good enough shooter to notice.

I've been playing recently with smaller cartridges like the .32-40. Maybe there is a noticeable difference there.

Chris.

I think there is truth in here. I personally think the lock time is a bigger factor in off hand or unsupported shooting, not so much if you have support.

[waksupi]

There is always the Borchardt.....

There used to be a guy down in the Bitterroot, building these all by hand. Is he still in the business?

[Lead pot]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/15684241_QEClassicRifleSharpsBorcha.jpg

[Bullshop]

B-u-t- full

[Don McDowell]

Rick the fella in New Mexico that was building the borchardts got crossthreaded with the ATFE over something , so he's not in business anymore. Haven't heard about the Bitteroot rifles for quite some time.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

The "Bitterroot Borchardts" are made outside of Stevensville, MT by Argus Barker.

I think none of you have heard the entire story of Wolfgang Droege and mr Schofstall.

I will state that Shiloh builds everything from scratch. They built a foundry next door to their factory, and make castings for their rifles. Even the screws. They sent employees down to Cali when they bought a pantograph machine to learn how to run one. They also have a couple of Pratt&Whitney deep hole drilling machines that they make their barrels on.
You can go inside most days and Kirk will give you the complete tour.
N-O-B-O-D-Y, to the best of my knowledge has even gotten even a peek into the mfg part of C Sharps shop.

One of you should call and ask where every part of the C Sharps rifles are sourced and where they are assembled.

Ask Kenny to tell you the garbage truck story...

[waksupi]

I'm not surprised no one is allowed in the C. Sharps manufacturing area. Of all the firearms companies up here in the Flathead, I don't know of any that you are going to be welcome to go into, if some one doesn't know who you are, or have an appointment. Hardly any of them have signs identifying them as firearms or accessory manufacturers, so people can't just wander in.

[Don McDowell]

I've heard the story of the great breakup at the Sharps plant in Mt numerous times since it happened. Always have and always will believe there to be two sides to everything.And as it doesn't affect me directly and was 30 some odd years ago, fully believe it's time to let that one die , as Wolf is gone, John is old and has a manager hired to run the company now. It's old hat, dragging it back up serves little to no purpose.
Mike Venturino also dispelled the story about the garbage truck right here on this site a couple of years ago.
I know folks have reported on other boards of touring both factories. It surprise me a little bit that a tour during regular work days would be done at either place, the disruption to the work place by folks wandering thru and the safety concerns would almost seem to prohibit it. I know the day we were at Shiloh, the only guys working were in the wood shop, and Lucinda gave us a whirlwind look at the Shiloh shop, and did go into the wood shop and bring my rifle out to show me.
Pick your brand, pick both brands, however you slice it it's an American company, producing an American product and either one deserves consideration in my estimation long before the imported knockoffs.
Here's a video short tour of the CSA factory http://csharpsarms.com/pages/14/Manufacturing-Process.html
CSA

[Lead pot]

EDG
I agree and always have. The 1885 Hiwall action is unquestionably potentually more accurate than an 1874 Sharps for several reasons.
#1 lighter hammer
#2 shorter hammer throw
#3 faster lock time
#4 straight line fireing pin
and maybe other factors all add up to greater level of potential accuracy.
I also enjoy and utalise the fact that the hiwall is a stronger action that handles modern smokless powder cartridges as well as black powder cartridges.
It was the darling of custom smiths as a platform for varmint rifles before factory varmint rifles were readily available. To my eye those custom builds from the three or four decades post WW2 are most pleasent to look upon of all such purpose built rifles.
Sorry but I cant just limit my gun nuttyness to any one type of powder. So burn me at the stake but when you pile up the fuel for my burning add a little smokeless to the black.

BS

I cant say if it does make a difference or not. I have shot the center hammers over the years, Winchesters, Remingtons, Stevens, as well as the side hammers sharps and trapdoors.
When the striker or center hammer hits with the fast lock time your still fighting the torque of the heavy bullet in the bore at the slow velocity it travels down the barrel the torque and recoil moves the barrel before the bullet clears the muzzle and it the shooter does not control the rifle all the light fall of the hammer and fast strike of the short throw of the hammer or striker in my opinion dont make much difference at black powder velocity's.
Except maybe piece of mind to the shooter:)

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt pretty hits it on the head the torque and slow barrel Time of the bullet and the recoil are much more of a factor then the lock time. To each their own.

Don M, I used to have in my hands a C.Sharps-Shiloh in 1990 I took it to Big Timber, as I was going to buy it, but wanted to make sure it was a 40-70 BN or was it Dan P's 40-70 Govt.

I know what Mike V said about the garbage truck deal, But Wolf about threw me out of the shop and was one pissed off man, as this as he put it was one of the Out the back door guns. Ole Wolfgang was pretty damm clear on the subject. A lot of **** went out the back door, (in his own words) take it for what you will, Don it was pretty clear to me.

I had my own bad dealings with John S in 1993-4 and threaten to come up and get my money and Dave Tate's money back or have 2 1874 actions or know the reason why, after going from a 90 day wait to a tad or 18 months.

Now As I posted and some folks did not see it, I do own a C Sharps 1875 in 22 LR and its a fine rifle and its served me quite well ( me being one of those Dirty foul match Shooters) that EDG bad mouths me every chance he can get. Frankly I get real tired of him draging my name around in the ****e, to be real honest. So I have made a peace with John S. he treated me right on that rifle. I count but a few friends on this site you, Kurt, and Cajin, Rich, and a few others. I am tired tonight had my infusion 3 days early due to the Pharmacy folks not wanting to spend 20 mins mixing my Poison on Friday. So for my friends that i missed sorry.



I am pretty proud of my success, and that of the guy I have shot with for the last 17 years Jimbo Terry,in BPCR, it seems that rubs you the wrong way, so be it, I seldom post here anymore, yet I have shared a lot of things with my fellow shooters on this forum that I learned the hard way. I see you share your rancor with me thats about it.

And now Rick if this gets me tossed off the forum, pitty, As I am sick of this guys attacks on me.

Kenny Wasserburger- thats my real name and I live in Gillette Wyoming.

[Don McDowell]

Kenny you get rested up and take it easy this winter. We got a long busy season coming next year, and I'm looking forward to watching you,Jimbo, Bryan etal get down to business and shoot those x rings. And hopefully one of ya gets their name on the Lancaster trophy!