Big Bore Cartridge - Dangerous Game

[chickenstripe]

I'm looking for a Big Bore cartridge for dangerous African game.

Anyone can get a 458 Win mag, 458 Lott, or the like, I'm looking for something different.

Criteria is 500gr or better, 2000fps or better, and in a repeating action (no single shots or double rifles).

Priced under $5K......

Does anyone have any input on a non-typical big bore thumper, that of course, I can still get components for.

Let the discussion begin.

[BruceB]

Right near my home here, is "Alkali Gunsmithing International".

hey offer a full-custom large-caliber rifle in a wide variety of chamberings, including wildcats and large calibers.

Their "Kalahari" model is intended for African big game, and is priced at (co-incidence?) $5050...right on the edge of your budget. Take a look at their website, and click on "Custom Rifles" in the list of options on the left-hand side.

[GARCIA]

Lever action by Turnbull?

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=22110

[StrawHat]

Have you considered the 475 A&M as a cartridge? Based on the 378 Weatherby case necked to .475, it can launch a 400 grain bullet at 3200 fps, yep, varmint cartridge speeds!! The 500 grain bullet you request can achieve nearly 3000 fps. More info should be available in "Cartridges of the World".

I first heard of it in the late 60s or early 70s when I saw one in a gunshop in Avon, Ohio. It might be what you are looking for.

But consider this, at one time it was unlawful to import ammuntion into some African countries that was headstamped differently from the rifle. This law effectively forbade the use of wildcats. Not sure if it is still in affect, but it would be worth finding out before you spend too much money on something you can not use.

Oh, the rifle was built using one of the P14 or P17 actions that were plentiful in that era.

[Nobade]

Local dealer has a CZ Safari chambered for 505 Gibbs on the shelf for around 2K, with a couple boxes of ammo. That ought to do it.

[pmer]

Chickenstripe, what are you shooting for a big bore now? As far as recoil goes a .458 Lott opened my eyes.

[elk hunter]

Local dealer has a CZ Safari chambered for 505 Gibbs on the shelf for around 2K, with a couple boxes of ammo. That ought to do it.

I'll second that.

I shot one about a year ago. Great rifle and cartridge, 525 grain bullets at up to 2200 fps. It's now on my "I want one list".

[725]

I can't think of anything that could survive the .458 Lott. It launches the 500 grainers just fine, components are easily obtained and it will do cast as good as jacketed. Let us know what you find in your search.

[dk17hmr]

Check out the 50 Razor Back, based on the 300 Ultra Magnum case. JTknives is pushing a 500gr paper patched slug out of his barrel at about 2500fps....its a wicked round and cases arent that hard to make or that expensive. Its on my to build list.

[btroj]

I just don't get the need for a "nobody else has it " gun.
What type of dangerous game? Unless you are talking rhino or elephant then a 375 H&H will do all you need.
Just my way of thinking I suppose.

[67bear]

It doesn't quite fit your criteria, but I think the 416 Taylor can take care of anything. That's what I'm currently building on a 98 Mauser action.

[Dark Helmet]

416 Taylor, 411 KDF, 411 Express should be able to get at least a 450 gr lead boolit to work

[waksupi]

I think you should just buy my .458 Win Mag., and be happy!

[Nrut]

416 Taylor, 411 KDF, 411 Express should be able to get at least a 450 gr lead boolit to work

DH,
What is the .411 Express?
Hawk?

[Nrut]

chickenstripe,
I would build a big bore on a Winchester SS Classic as they will feed FN bullets due to their coned breech with way less drama than other rifles..
I speak from experience on this dealing with small bores..

Are you planning on using cast bullets to hunt dangerous game?

The accuratereloading.com "Big Bore" forum is your huckleberry...

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Come to SW Idaho and I will let you shoot my 550 Gibbs. Built it on a 1917 Remington action. You can take the bolt out, and drop loaded 458 Lott ammunition down the muzzle without hitting the barrel enroute.

You have to experience an eleven pound rifle with a 700gr J-bullet at 2600fps to really discuss recoil...

Imagine a conventional RN Soft Point that is 1.28" long and weighs 700gr and a special alloy brass and something truncated cone solid that weighs the same, but is 1.49" oal.

Colin Stolzer is building me a Ten Bore BPE Double Rifle now, for 960 gr cast boolets.

Yeah, I like big rifles too...

Rich

[chickenstripe]

Some interesting responses, just as I had expected.

I knew I was asking the right bunch of guys.

It's not a matter of having something that nothing else has, just an investigation of what else is avalable. In North America a "big gun" is relative, and usually 30-33cal with 70+ grains of powder behind it.

The Alkalai Corp site is interesting, I'll have to do some investigating. http://www.alkalicorp.org/9252/9706.html

I've fired a CZ in 458 Win Mag, rechambered to 458 Lott (500gr solid @ 2200fps). I didn't feel the recoil was very punishing, particularly after seeing what it did to the 2" thick. 20"dia steel plate at 200yds. I guess I feel that it's the price of doing business at that level.

I don't believe I would use cast boolits to hunt dangerous game, probably barnes solids, based upon experiences with their other bullets.

The South African Police inspect all of the ammunition, and ensure that it matches the cartridge designation on the rifle.

The Turnbull is an interesting choice, and back on the list. I didn't realize they made rifles for less than $25K.

Any semi-auto rifle is strictly forbidden in Africa.

475 A&M..... never heard of that one. some investigation is in order. Maybe the guys doing the big bore prarie dog hunting would find this appealing also. I guess the first question would be...... can bullets of that calliber withstand those non-typical impact velocities?

550 Gibbs........
All I can say is jeeeez...... does it come with a dental plan? or is it a towed/crew served endeavor?

[Bulldogger]

The .700*** from JTKnives (his build is on this site)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124685&highlight=700+***

or

a 2-Bore BP cartridge firing Jones Underlever from Charles Stolzer
http://stolzergunsmithing.webs.com/2borejonesunderlever.htm

Either one should do just fine for anything up to T-Rex.
BDGR

[nicholst55]

Go big or go home; .50 BMG.

[Dark Helmet]

411 on a full length 300 Win Mag case

[tacklebury]

Real mauser action at a decent price. This one's .458 Win. Magnum:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=114481

[frank505]

My vote is for a 505 Gibbs, and a 416 Taylor as a backup/plains game rifle. The Gibbs will do all
for big stuff and the Taylor will shoot flat enough for plains game and also 400's at 2300 will do for big stuff. My Taylor will shoot at one hundred yards the 400 grain right over the front sight, the 350 Speer(excellent bullet) two inches high and some of those 300 grain swaged bullets three inches high.

[caillouetr9981]

Unless you are determined that you cannot take DG with anything less that a 500-gr. bullet, you need to look at a .416 Taylor.

Yeah, yeah, there are scads of other calibers that make noise too, but the .416 Taylor - with decent 400-gr. bullets - will STOP (not just kill, but STOP!!!) any DG that breathes on this planet!

You can get a great .416 built cheaply, or spend a lot more money, if you want to get fancy and/or name-brand extravagent. But, really you can get a great hunting Taylor for right at a grand! Then you can spend the rest of the $5000 on ammo, safari, etc., etc.

IF YOU NEED MORE THAN THE .416 TAYLOR, YOU NEED SOMETHING WITH A LANYARD!

Reggie

[Bill Torzsok]

+
.416 Taylor!
Effective and you do not get fallen arches carrying it!

[TXGunNut]

1886 Winchester in 45-90, 1895 in .405. May not have the oomph you're looking for but they've been there, done that.

[Freightman]

I don't know! I saw where some dudes in England were trying to clone a tyrannosaurus rex might better think a 105mm or 155mm. smile.

[bearcove]

Kind of boring, but I've decided my Marlin in 45-70 loaded warm will Kill anything still walking the planet.

[50-170-700 sharps]

It really depends on what your going to do with this rifle. I don't think you can go wrong with a good 505 Gibbs/500 Jeffery, 450 rigby, or even 585 Nyati/577 T-rex. You could do a 460 Weatherby, but I think you will agree with me that the styling and quality of Mark V rifles leaves a bit to be desired. A great article that may help with your search is http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBoreCompendium/. I hear CZ is a great company to deal with, and it is probably the best choice for a custom build in the large calibers because of the excellent and fool proof Mauser design. JTknives on this forum is also THE guy to talk to about large caliber weaponry, he's a great guy and is on this forum alot, so shoot him a PM. Good luck on the build, I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you end up with.
Sincerely, Jim.

[geargnasher]

Go big or go home; .50 BMG.

That's what I was thinking all along, I can't believe no one else mentioned it. A good bolt-action Barret should be in budget and easy enough to handle for a guy who can handle .458 Lott without whimpering too much.


Kind of boring, but I've decided my Marlin in 45-70 loaded warm will Kill anything still walking the planet.

Yup. Like convincing anyone around my part of the country that my wimpy old .30-30 is still capable of killing a 125-lb whitetail. Lots of old Germans in the area that still hunt deer (illegally) with .22 rimfire. Not everyone can shoot as well as most of them can, though.

Gear

[mroliver77]

Kind of boring, but I've decided my Marlin in 45-70 loaded warm will Kill anything still walking the planet.
Yep with the 45-70 loaded up to the Marlins potential it will kill anything on either end! A 400gr boolit at 1900fps gives 3200 lbs of energy! A 350gr at 2050fps is nothing to laugh at either!
Jay

[Ed in North Texas]

The .700*** from JTKnives (his build is on this site)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124685&highlight=700+***

or

a 2-Bore BP cartridge firing Jones Underlever from Charles Stolzer
http://stolzergunsmithing.webs.com/2borejonesunderlever.htm

Either one should do just fine for anything up to T-Rex.
BDGR

YOU knew someone would ask, and I just HAVE to: What is the full designation, and source, of the name of the .700 ***? [smilie=s:

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

My gunsmith (one of them) is finishing up a 600 OK for me. Think 600 Nitro Express in a rimless version for a bolt rifle.
I have a 10 bore double coming, so the 600 is surplus to my needs. It would come at about the upper end of your budget. Really great piece of walnut.

Rich

[Three44s]

I'm still planning on a .416 Taylor but not to go to Africa.

If I DID go ............ the Taylor would go along as Frank 505 suggests and something heavier for the main DG rifle.

Don't know enough about those bigger numbers to offer any conflab about them.


Three 44s

[Old Goat Keeper]

At on time the 475 A&M was the most powerfull rifle cartridge in the world folks! It even shades the 460 Weatherby. Personally I think most of the rounds mentioned, other than the 458 Winchester and the 505 Gibbs, are way over powered unless you are hunting T-rex or blue whales. And way to much recoil too.

T-o-m

[405]

Sheesh, never saw three gallons of testosterone ever kill anything. :)

Idea! To be different why not go with something that can be shot enough to become proficient with, can be reloaded easily, causes no problems in finding many options for factory ammo, locating ammo, choices of dies or components. Fine, reliable guns for these cartridges can be had for less than $2K. These ARE different because everyone else is chasing the latest fad T rex blaster cartridge.

For practical, non-fad yet different today cartridges like the 375 HH, 416 Rigby, 416 Remington come to mind... The 375 loaded with the 300 gr Swift A Frame and the 416s loaded with the 400 gr Swift A Frame. For shooting the 500 gr bullet at decent levels without pushing pressure limits the 458 Lott is hard to beat. Any of these are effective for anything that walks. Solids of course are optional but many times not recommended depending on conditions, the PH's preference, type of game, etc.

[NickSS]

A guy named Bell killed over 1000 elephants with a 7X57 mauser shooting 175 gr FMJ bullets. Bullet placement is the trick not horse power.

[50-170-700 sharps]

A guy named Bell killed over 1000 elephants with a 7X57 mauser shooting 175 gr FMJ bullets. Bullet placement is the trick not horse power.

While I agree that bullet placement is vital, I think you'll agree that if you could pick any rifle to go shoot a potentially dangerous animal, the 7x57 mauser would NOT be it.
Of the many choices under 5k I think that the 505 Gibbs/500 Jeffery or 450 Rigby in the fine CZ 550 would not disapoint, these chamberings deffinitley are a bit exotic as wished, and are definatley within the price range mentioned. I personally plan to get a ruger #1 in 458 Lott next year or the year after.

Best of luck, Jim.

[chickenstripe]

:popcorn:

[G. Blessing]

Yup. Like convincing anyone around my part of the country that my wimpy old .30-30 is still capable of killing a 125-lb whitetail.

Gear

Now thats bad. I thought the scoffs I get for 30-30 on 800+ Lbs of AK moose were bad... But doubting it'll drop a deer? Damn.

[smilie=l:[smilie=l:[smilie=l:

G.

[GabbyM]

I wouldn't have any trouble staying way under $5M. A new FN Win M-70 in 416 would do me fine.

Would probably use a red dot sight.

[happyfast79]

the 577 Tyrannosaur by a square looks like a interesting round , just under 2500 fps with a 750 gr bullet and was designed in the good ol USA in 1993, 65000 psi max pressure makes me think it might let you know when it goes off!:bigsmyl2:

[Dark Helmet]

Yup, CDNN has Win. 416's for $1099
http://site.cdnninvestments.com/CDNN2011-3/index.html

[Crawdaddy]

Doesnt get more unique than a 500 MBOGO.


http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/8561006361

[Crawdaddy]

Kind of boring, but I've decided my Marlin in 45-70 loaded warm will Kill anything still walking the planet.

YUP! I feel the same about my 450 MArlin with my 463 grain boolit.

[edward hogan]

How about a .450 Ackley Magnum on a Winchester 70 magnum CRF action?

Google has lots of articles, but the one at this link is very interesting:
http://www.africanoutfitter.com/backissues/2007/junejuly/450ackleymagnum.php

I've got a Pac-Nor barrel and RCBS new die set as well as a new McMillan hunting stock. All you need is a stainless (or non) Win 70 magnum CRF action and you've got a super dangerous game rifle very affordably.

[chickenstripe]

I ran across an article that I thought was interesting.

I guess I find myself agreeing with this guy.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=89&tocid=1273

[Me not you]

Super Lightweight 50 BMG Rifle
http://www.anzioironworks.com/light_50.htm :guntootsmiley:

Or, even more so:
Mag-Fed 20MM Rifle
http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm :awesome:

[leftiye]

I read somewhere that someone is converting Garands to .458 Win. Mag. I also hear that a .50 BMG will blow a person into two pieces. Super light weight is a verrrrrrrry questionable idea in a .50 BMG platform.

[gandydancer]

remember ammo must be head stamped the caliber of rifle if not its a no go in Africa. good luck. GD

[Olevern]

Gettin too old to shoot the 505 gibbs, but, if anyone lookin has one, have 39 pieces of brand new brass to sell, left over from my visit to the wild side.