Sizing down 9mm brass for 9mm jackets?

[Chris893]

Hello,

I'm still new here and new to swaging, I just recieved my press and dies in the mail yesterday[smilie=w:. The set I have will be used for 9mm (.355dia) and I was wondering if there was an alternative to buying expensive jackets from corbin. I see that most are using brass but other than .32cal, which brass can I use? Is there a die out there that reduces the diameter of 9mm and .380 brass down to .355 diameter or less? Thank you for any help or advice you can give

Chris

[ReloaderFred]

I use both .32 Auto and .380 Auto brass for making .357" diameter bullets. Once they're annealed, it's pretty easy to swage them into bullets, but you do have to anneal them first.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Chris893]

I annealed the .380 cases and they are soft and workable but when I try and seat the core the base of the brass is too large to fit in the .355dia hole

any suggestions?

Also, did you have to reduce the brass down to a smaller size first or was it drop the core in and go? The .380 case looks like it will almost fit in the die but it definitely doesn't. I measured the base and it came out to be .371"

[ReloaderFred]

I use the CH-4D Core Seating die, with a push stem from the Lee Push Through Sizer in .308 caliber. This seats the core inside the case and pushes the .380 case into the core seat die. The mouth of my core seat die is tapered enough to allow the base to enter, but it does take some pressure to get it in there. A good lube is necessary, too. I'm also forming them into .357" bullets, so perhaps the extra .002" is making a difference, too.

After I've seated the cores, then I run them into the Swaging Die and form the finished bullet.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[BT Sniper]

Fred, I'm a bit confused with the 308 core seat die refrence? Did you mean 38 cal? I can't imagine your pushing 380 cases into a .304ish hole.

NEVER MIND! I get it now... the base punch you are using is .308! I get it now.

It is best to reduce any case first to a diameter less then that of the core seat die. Push the case all the way threw a 9mm Taper Crimp die to start with. That will atleast take it down to .360. Still would be best to find a sizing die that will take a jacket for 9mm bullets down to about .349ish first then proceed with proeccesof forming bullets.

The core seat die works, kind of but puts a lot of potential stress on the die as well as makes for hard extraction of the jacket and seated core from the die. Like I said it can be done but not neccessarly the best way to do it.

As far as jackets for the 9mm..... yep probably 380 is a good bet. I don't know, I have not made 9mms just 357s from 9mm brass. To me using 9mm brass to make 9mm bullets may be a bit counterproductive....... but possible.

Have fun with it, experiment a bit. Anything is possible!

Welcome to the sight.

BT Sniper

[ReloaderFred]

That's it, BT, just the push rod from the Lee die set is being used in conjunction with the core seat die. It fits inside the case to seat the core. I agree that sizing them smaller before bumping them back up to the final diameter would work better, but I don't have a die for that purpose at the present time. I do have a lot of extra die sets, so maybe I'll look through them and see what I can come up with.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Bollocks]

Hi,

I reduce 9mm cases to .354 to make .355 boolits out of them. Downside is that the cases/jackets need to be trimmed to be able to make suitable bulletweights for the 9mmP.

Chrs,
BolloX

[Chris893]

Thank you Fred and BT, I look forward to hearing about what you come up with. I tried to run it through a taper die and...:???: I couldn't get it all the way through so I flipped it over. Don't try it, my brain wasn't working. I may play around with it some more tonight with LOTS of lube. The last thing I want to do is f up my dies...that would be REALLY counterproductive. ;-)

BolloX, care to share your method/process?

Corbin has a jacket reducing die...for $179

[BT Sniper]

You need to completely anneal the case first then push cases threw sizing dies base first.

[Bollocks]

Hi Chris,

This is what I do:

- Anneal 9mm cases
- Trim 9mm cases to desired length
- Reduce the cases to .354 by pushing them through a modified Dillon 9mm crimp die
( I can do this in 1 pass with my Corbin CSP-1 presses. If you use a normal reloading press the reducing might need to be done in more steps)
- Cut cores from lead wire
- Seat cores
- Form ogive

It is possible to make normal length bullets for the 9mmP using the untrimmed cases/jackets by folding the nose in. However, this is more work than trimming.

Chrs from Holland,
BolloX

[Chris893]

I have both the dillon crimp die and the csp-1 press so does that mean I will be able to do it in one pass?

Also, I'm having trouble figuring out what to insert into the ram so that the brass can reach the crimp die... How is your die modified?

Thank you
Chris

[PhilOhio]

Chris, guys,

If you are willing to invest another step in the process, lightly tighten the un-annealed fired case in a 3-jaw Jacobs chuck, mounted in your small benchtop lathe or drill press. (I say "before annealing", because the hard case is less likely to be deformed by moderately tight clamping.) Then cut off that thick base, even with the line where the groove stopped. You'll then have a wonderful jacket that can be annealed and much more easily be swaged down to whatever you want. You aren't fighting all that thick web metal and over-stressing your dies and press. Some of that brass will also be swaged into the flash hole, making it smaller.

This is a good use for non-reloadable Berdan primed brass cases.

If you are doing this large-scale, a Harbor Freight cutter might be quicker, but for the small scale jacket making I do, cutting on my 6" Atlas lathe is fast enough. I can do a case in a minute or less.

They really look like factory jackets. And after a little cleaning of the oxide from annealing, using either citric acid or phosphoric acid solution, they look very professional.

As for annealing, I light a propane torch, set it on the work bench, suspend a case on the end of a coat hanger wire, and in 13 to 18 seconds it is evenly red and ready to drop into a can of water. Quenching is not necessary, but speeds things up. I can do 3 to 4 per minute. This is not for large scale jacket making, but you can do 100 pretty quickly and very little propane is used.

[scrapcan]

Bollocks,

What are you doing to modify the dillon 9mm TC crimp die? Could you do the same thing with an RCBS Taper crimp die ( I ask because I have one of those in the spare die box, The dillon die is in my die set for the 550B)

[MIBULLETS]

You could also call Dave at CH-4D and ask him about reducing dies. He makes them for reducing jackets. You have to specify the dimensions. Price listed is $64.81

http://www.ch4d.com/

[a.squibload]

...As for annealing, I light a propane torch, set it on the work bench, suspend a case on the end of a coat hanger wire, ...

I set up the cases in rows on an old cookie sheet, then heat 'em with the propane torch
one at a time. By the time the first one is glowing, the next one in line is hot,
so it goes pretty quick.

Never thought about using a drill press for trimming, might try that,
I think mine will fit a 9mm case.
I got the Lyman trimmer, the chuck is too big to use the HF chopsaw, no clearance.

[Chris893]

I hear that ch4d is backed up 6 months?

Bolloks, we look forward to your reply ;)

[MIBULLETS]

Well that is for the swaging dies, but did any one ask him about reducing dies?

[Bollocks]

Hi Chris,

The holes drilled through the Dillon crimp die insert is tapered. I cut the die insert down (about halfway) untill I reached the desired reducing value (.353/.354). Next I polished it and glued the die insert back in the die body and made a suitable punch to push the 9mm cases through (with the CSP-1). The edge in the die insert will cause some brass shaving of the case rims.

It is a crude method but it works reasonably well. I did ruin another Dillon crimpdie by using a too fat punch. The die insert cracked.

BTW, I do have CH4D jacket reducers on order but have been waiting for almost a year now....

Chrs from Holland,
BolloX

[MIBULLETS]

That's too bad...you would think CH4D would capitalize on all of this demand in the last few years.

[Chris893]

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Nice work Bollocks! :drinks: and sorry to here about your dies...that's a LONG wait

[Mountain Prepper]

Inspired by you guys I decided to photo my progression.

We now have a small 1950’s hobby lathe and have been using it to cut down rims and other brass items (we are new and practicing what can I say...).

I have about 500 to 1000 Amerc brass (boo-hiss) that I have saved just to mangle up for a reason.

As warned by others, this brass is hard and hard to work with, even when heated orange it is significantly harder than other brass.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n636/MountainPrepper/Handloading/308jacket_9case.jpg

A case ready to get mangled...

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n636/MountainPrepper/Handloading/amerc9_to_353_jacket.jpg

The un-mangled case next to one sized to .353 and trimmed.

More later.

(oops, top is not amerc brass, but you get the idea)

[Chris893]

Damn Mountian Prep! That looks awesome! Way to go!:drinks:

[Mountain Prepper]

Finished 115 grain.

From the top

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n636/MountainPrepper/Handloading/9mm_from_9jackets_bullets_top.jpg

Three at various angles.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n636/MountainPrepper/Handloading/9mm_from_9jackets_bullets.jpg

I made 64 total of this with the Amerc as jackets - so I would have extras just in the event of screwing up - I mangled one beyond repair - that goes into the pot to melt.

[plamenti]

Well that is for the swaging dies, but did any one ask him about reducing dies?

I asked them (through a friend in the U.S.) - for reducing dies I have to wait between 8 and 12 months.

Best regards from Bulgaria (Eastern Europe)

Mountain Prepper - awesome boolits :awesome:

[Bollocks]

Hi,

Waiting for dies is starting to get frustrating. Not sure if it is any different when you reside in the States but I have a lead wire extruder and pinch trimmer dies on order with D. Corbin for 16 months now. My order with CH4D for jacket reducers has clocked 13 months now.

Over here in Europe I do not know of any producer of swaging materials....

BTS should go Global! ;)

Chrs from Holland

[BT Sniper]

I'm working on it guys :) . My little girls just started school so I have some more free time to work. Things are looking good for BTSniper. Things at CH-4d? Well..... I'm just glad that I am able to make my own dies now.

Good looking bullets there MP.

Good Shooting and Swage On!

BT

[Mountain Prepper]

Things are looking good for BTSniper...... I'm just glad that I am able to make my own dies now.

That is good news.

[a.squibload]

Mtn. Prep.:
Good lookin' bullets!
Looks like your extractor grooves almost disappeared, am I missing something?
Do you just swage the heck out of 'em or what???

[Mountain Prepper]

Mtn. Prep.:
Good lookin' bullets!
Looks like your extractor grooves almost disappeared, am I missing something?
Do you just swage the heck out of 'em or what???

That happens when you run them into the dies, it squeezes down the rim, it is still there just more flattened.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have about 500 to 1000 Amerc brass (boo-hiss) that I have saved just to mangle up for a reason.

As warned by others, this brass is hard and hard to work with, even when heated orange it is significantly harder than other brass.


MP,
I thought Amerc brass was softer ?
I think it's harder (more difficult) to reload because I get several crushed cases,
because of it's softness...that is why I sort them out of the reloading cycle.
Am I wrong in my thinking ?

also, after seeing your excellent photos, I am thinking that Amerc's
brass alloy is even softer than other brands after annealing too,
Hence, the nearly disappearing extraction groove.

If I am wrong in my thinking, feel free to correct me.
I just want to have an understanding that makes sense to me.
Jon

[Mountain Prepper]

MP,
I thought Amerc brass was softer ?
I think it's harder (more difficult) to reload because I get several crushed cases,
because of it's softness...that is why I sort them out of the reloading cycle.
Am I wrong in my thinking ?

also, after seeing your excellent photos, I am thinking that Amerc's
brass alloy is even softer than other brands after annealing too,
Hence, the nearly disappearing extraction groove.

If I am wrong in my thinking, feel free to correct me.
I just want to have an understanding that makes sense to me.
Jon

I will, when I get back home, work on giving you a more accurate answer.

From my post I was talking about the relative effort taken (moving the lever on the press - the force required) for both the Amerc and the WCC military cases, the Amerc took a considerably higher level of effort to form and cut, I was referencing that and thinking that translated to “harder” and now that you state the above it makes me want to revisit that - could a softer brass be responsible for more effort - say sticking to the inside of the dies more?

I cannot tell you without more observation why, but I did note it took more effort, what causes that effort - I do not have an answer, but I should after I get back and try with other brands and watch more carefully.

[ReloaderFred]

I also found that A-Merc brass in both .380 Auto and 9x19 was harder to form into swaged bullets when I was using it. The brass was also heavier in weight by quite a bit in .380 Auto, and I found it quite hard, even after annealing.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Mountain Prepper]

I also found that A-Merc brass in both .380 Auto and 9x19 was harder to form into swaged bullets when I was using it. The brass was also heavier in weight by quite a bit in .380 Auto, and I found it quite hard, even after annealing.

Hope this helps.

Fred

All of the photos are after annealing BTW, and if you look closely you can see that the cut edge is a bit “rough” the Amerc is the only one that does this.

[Mountain Prepper]

Mtn. Prep.:
Good lookin' bullets!
Looks like your extractor grooves almost disappeared, am I missing something?
Do you just swage the heck out of 'em or what???

I missed something...

I actually run the cases into a sizing/cutting die that takes the case dia. down to .353 (ish) and then I take a swaged core (Corbin) and seat with a .308 punch (lee) into the case, and then into the point forming die (from CH4D) for a final .355.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I also found that A-Merc brass in both .380 Auto and 9x19 was harder to form into swaged bullets when I was using it. The brass was also heavier in weight by quite a bit in .380 Auto, and I found it quite hard, even after annealing. Hope this helps. Fred

MP and Fred and anyone else reading this.

I haven't checked weight of Amerc brass and compared it to others,
If it is heavier as Fred states, then I can only conclude that the base/web
is thicker and that would translate into more torque to resize them.
I'm not sure if the case walls are thicker or thinner, but I do know they crush
much easier during reloading, which makes me think they are either
thinner walls or softer alloy.

then re-stating that the nearly disappearing extractor groove of a
fully annealed case/jacket once point forming is done makes me
think the alloy is softer.

I would think a softer alloy would be beneficial for a jacket material.

my 2¢
Jon

[Mountain Prepper]

MP and Fred and anyone else reading this.

I haven't checked weight of Amerc brass and compared it to others,
If it is heavier as Fred states, then I can only conclude that the base/web
is thicker and that would translate into more torque to resize them.
I'm not sure if the case walls are thicker or thinner, but I do know they crush
much easier during reloading, which makes me think they are either
thinner walls or softer alloy.

then re-stating that the nearly disappearing extractor groove of a
fully annealed case/jacket once point forming is done makes me
think the alloy is softer.

I would think a softer alloy would be beneficial for a jacket material.

my 2¢
Jon

A reasonable question, one I think will be worth looking into (as I have plenty of Amerc and others to check), sadly I am far from my abode on a job and will not return until next week.

Possibly BT has some and can share any findings he has.