My 1st Military Rifle (Mosin Nagant)

[birdadly]

Hi everyone. I see there's only 2 pages in this Military section, so I'm not going to feel bad starting a thread just talk about myself and ask a few questions :)

So I'm new to rifles (have literally shot only 25 rifle rounds) and just picked up a 1933 Mosin Nagant 91/30 for a cheap birthday present for myself last weekend. I shot it tonight and was very happy with how I, and it, did! So I thought I'd share :)

I bought a box of S&B so I can start saving brass to reload with. I was worried on the first shot that the thing would blow up, but it didn't! After 6 shots my shoulder was SORE! I admit, I'm sensitive and bruise easily! I had to find a make-shift recoil pad quick, so my girlfriend (Keri) snagged a towel from the trunk.

This target is my first 10 shots, and my 11th shot was hitting the two water bottles in the other picture. Apparently Keri is AWESOME with the camera as the one shot I took at bottles (1 behind the other), she captured mid-awesomeness (1 bottle going top-left, other bottom right)! After that, we took more pics and headed out.

Questions? Hmm.
1. My bolt is quite loose and very smooth with no bullet in the chamber, but once I chamber a round, it easily went forward but I had some troubles putting it fully in the down position. Maybe I'm baby-ing it?

2. These were 180gr store-bought bullets. If I start casting for this, will I be able to bring the felt recoil down some? Maybe a lighter boolit and/or less powder?

3. I read through the "Candy Store" thread and really felt like my collection could start growing, now that I've shot this rifle and loved it! Can I find other surplus rifles around this price-point now-a-days? That being around $100?

That's it for now, thanks for your time and I hope the pics are entertaining for you! -Brad

[Gtek]

First- Welcome aboard! Second- butt stock looks a little low on shoulder (steel buttplate). Third-
extractor fit is throw of the dice, empty magazine-put one round on bolt face under extractor-slide in rifle and chamber, bet it drops easy. Might need a little tweak. The Russians have a very different way of things, but they make boats that work in mud. A new one with the disease, it is a wonderful thing. I see you are at a range, if there is an old fart with gray hair or something like that go chat it up. You will be suprised what you will add to your mind. Be safe- Gtek

[Multigunner]

1. My bolt is quite loose and very smooth with no bullet in the chamber, but once I chamber a round, it easily went forward but I had some troubles putting it fully in the down position. Maybe I'm baby-ing it?

Could be a dirty chamber. Old milsurp ammo with laquer water proofing sealants around the case mouth can cause deposits of mixed powder fouling and laquer that builds up at neck and shoulder and can be hard to remove with common solvents.

A stiff extractor is another possibility suppose.

[plmitch]

Nice looking Mosin there and a sweet birthday gift! You could try out a Butt Pad on it. http://www.buymilsurp.com/butt-pad-mosin-nagant-rifle-p-7758.html

[nicholst55]

Mosins are notorious for 'sticky-chamber syndrome.' The easiest way to cure it is to chuck a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun bore brush in your cordless drill, soak it in the solvent of your choice; insert it into the chamber (chamber ONLY), and go to town! Keep the brush out of the bore just for safety's sake. Work at it for a couple of minutes, replenishing the solvent as needed, then clean with patches.

Another problem that they frequently suffer from is dried cosmoline in the bore. I recommend taking a metal funnel that will fit into the chamber, and pouring at least a tea kettle full of boiling water down the bore. Then follow that with a normal cleaning and oiling. The boiling water will remove the dried cosmoline and dry up most (if not all) of the residual water. Many Mosin bores that start out looking pretty nasty end up looking much better after this treatment.

Not too many milsurps in the >$100 range these days, other than the Mosin.

[ilcop22]

Welcome to the wonderful world of mil-spec shooting! The 91/30 is a fantastic rifle. Highly accurate, rugged and a fine piece of history. I own three and am quite pleased with them. On to your questions...



1. My bolt is quite loose and very smooth with no bullet in the chamber, but once I chamber a round, it easily went forward but I had some troubles putting it fully in the down position. Maybe I'm baby-ing it?

That's normal. Tolerances on the 91/30 are huge, and it's highly likely the bolt you have isn't original to that gun. It's a beast of a gun, with one of the strongest actions to date. There could be a few potential issues, though I'd be inclined to chalk it up to "that's just the way they are". Among the potential issues are:

1. A burr in the chamber catching on the case
2. Poor headspacing
3. Improper length bullet

This question doesn't raise any red flags, but you can always check those things out. I have mil-spec rifles that take some force to close the bolt on some rounds, but none of the above issues were found. Generally speaking, you want to have to apply a small amount of force on milspec bolt guns to fully seat the bullet to the rifling. Cartridge OAL has a lot to do with that, and every gun is different. There's quite a bit more detail on that topic, but I'll save that for clarification if needed later.



2. These were 180gr store-bought bullets. If I start casting for this, will I be able to bring the felt recoil down some? Maybe a lighter boolit and/or less powder?

Typically if you cast and reload, you'll find some of your loads will have less recoil than factory loads, particularly with lighter boolits and powder charges. My advice is get a shoulder pad or a shooting jacket, because the 7.62x54r cartridge is by nature a heavy recoil round.



3. I read through the "Candy Store" thread and really felt like my collection could start growing, now that I've shot this rifle and loved it! Can I find other surplus rifles around this price-point now-a-days? That being around $100?

Not anything I'd be willing to shoot, no. You may get lucky, but you're mostly looking at the mid-end of $300 and the prices soar from there.

Any questions, feel free to ask. This is a great community to be a part of.

[303Guy]

If I start casting for this, will I be able to bring the felt recoil down some? Maybe a lighter boolit and/or less powder?Try a heavier boolit with a bit less powder or a slower powder. Recoil becomes a push rather than a 'kick'. Even with my 303 Brit driving a 208gr boolit to 2250fps is mild.

[Von Dingo]

As for cheap mil-surps, the Yugo M-24/47's can be found for under $200, and some are really like new. Though being packed in cosmoline for fifty years after being arsenal refurbished, they don't look it.

[Simonpie]

Not all recoil pas are the same, and what works for one rifle doesn't always work for another with different weight and ammo. When you find the right one it is transformative. I use one that straps on my shoulder from Buffalo arms, works awesome.

Have fun!

[Hardcast416taylor]

Keep an eye open for estate or moving out of state auctions for firearms. You`d be surprised what you may come across.Robert

[Larry Gibson]

Nice pics, couple suggestions; The butt of the rifle is a little low in the shoulder pocket. That will definately accentuate recoil with the steel butt plate. Looks like it needs to be about 1' higher. Also if shooting from a table as in the picture if you can turn it a little sideways so the top is under the right elbow to. Padding under the elbows helps lesson "felt" recoil and pain on the elbows.

Looks like the old girl is shooting good. S%B ammo is non corrosive but if you shoot ANY milsurp then consider it corrosive primed and clean the bore right away. Hoppe's #( is a good solvent for both.

Casting is definately the option for the MN. Suggest you start with the Lee C312-185-2R or the Lyman 314299. Numerous powders will work well. If you're going to cast your first purchase should be a Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd or 4th edition (I prefer the 3rd for biginners information). It has all the basic how to's of how to cast and load cast bullets. It also has a lot of loading data. After thoroughly studying the Lyman handbook you can come back as you'll have lot's of questions on what equipment to get, etc.

Welcome to the forum.

Larry Gibson

[wills]

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm
http://www.zazzle.com/top_ten_soviet_mosin_nagant_back_tshirt-235051505247603516

Might try C. E. Harris “the load”

[Multigunner]

This question doesn't raise any red flags, but you can always check those things out. I have mil-spec rifles that take some force to close the bolt on some rounds, but none of the above issues were found.

The heavy carbon deposits and additives such as flash suppressants plus laquer neck sealants of some milspec ammo, plus the atomised lead blasted from the open base of some FMJ bullets with soft lead cores, can create an agregate that is difficult or impossibile to completely remove using standard bore cleaning solvents.
When it builds up in neck and shoulder even a chamber brush and solvent doesn't always get it all out.

Heat and pressure of firing compaxcts the fouling giving it a smooth hard metalic appearance, so often its not obvious to the eye.

An indicator is smudges on the case neck, since the fouling doesn't allow a full seal against powder gases.
If this hardened fouling is soaked with strong solvent long enough between firings theres sometimes a tarry residue on case neck or shoulder. Thats how I first spotted it in my Enfield.

The hard fouling increases resistence to the bullet leaving the neck, the average bullet begins bump up before leaving the neck, so some clearance is necessary or the neck can't expand far enough.
Once the hard fouling is removed chamber pressures ease down and accuracy improves along with case life.

I use a scraper made from brass tubing, slotted on one side with teeth filed in the rim.
A angled slot on each side works well also.
The stuff that comes out looks like pencil lead shavings.
When the fouling is gone the brass won't bite steel so you can feel the difference.
Spread the end of the tube after every few turns.

[Dutch4122]

If you're looking for a mold to buy for that new Mosin I highly recommend the NOE 316299. They cast .316" on the bands and .305" on the bore riding nose. There is a Group Buy currently going for that design in the Active Group Buys sub forum.

Hope this helps, :D

[birdadly]

I love reading all of your wisdom fellas, thanks a bunch! I'll start with getting a good flashlight up in the chamber and seeing if I can notice it needing a better bath. Then I'll look further if needed so I can get that dang bolt to close easier.

Thanks for the head's up that I'm holding the butt a little low on my shoulder, maybe that'll help a lot raising it up an inch! I admit I learn all of my habits, good and bad, on my own. I don't have many friends/family that like shooting very much to learn from. I'll look into a butt pad too, as well as maybe use my recoil pad that I sometimes use for shotgun.

"wills", that first link you posted is hilarious and is now familiar to me! Too funny.

Matt, thanks for the info on my NOE mold. I like the idea of custom molds, and have started with 2 of Miha's for the 45acp. That makes me want to mention to Larry, I have actually started casting just this year... well okay, I've only had two sessions so far, but am getting the hang of it! Very fun stuff and I am very appreciative of you all to learn from. -Brad

[Multigunner]

Thanks for the head's up that I'm holding the butt a little low on my shoulder, maybe that'll help a lot raising it up an inch! I admit I learn all of my habits, good and bad, on my own. I don't have many friends/family that like shooting very much to learn from. I'll look into a butt pad too, as well as maybe use my recoil pad that I sometimes use for shotgun.


How one holds a rifle can be affected by individual factors.
I had to learn to hold the butt of hard kicking milsurp rifles lower than I'd been used to with the .22 because otherwise the end of my collar bone took a beating.
You hold your rifle pretty much the way I do now.

When these old military rifle stocks were designed they drew on centuries of the use of the musket, sporting stocks were usually quite different.
In those days many sporting rifle butt plates were designed to be held to the upper arm just out from the shoulder. Manufacturers sometimes offered a choice of Rifle or Musket butt plate, later they called the modified musket butt a shotgun butt.
One reason felt recoil of the Garand is not as bad as you'd expect is its flat "shotgun butt".

When the old time Military first test fired captured German Gew 98 rifles they often claimed the stock was too straight , they were used to plenty of drop at heel and not trying for a cheek weld, head gear of the times sometimes required a low comb.

Anyway the slip on recoil pad makes shooting far more comfortable, but can cause groupings to be larger. I found groups fired without the pad were half the size of those fired with a slip on pad. This was with one of the old reddish brown rubber pads made in the sixties, more recently manufactured slip ons may work better.
I then found the best method was to place a folded wash cloth on my shoulder under my T-Shirt.

[Von Dingo]

Number 9 must be read, http://manlyexcellence.com/2011/06/21/the-10-manliest-firearms-by-crazy-einar/

[ilcop22]

Awesome link, Von Dingo. Thanks!

[Multigunner]

From the link


You’ll need a recoil pad or shooting jacket. Ordinarily, this might be considered unmanly, but this rifle has a short stock for using while wearing several layers of wool for a Russian winter. It is acceptable to wear padding to fire a Mosin.

Thats what I was getting at, with the folded wascloth under the T-shirt.
Most summer time, and these days spring and early fall, shooting around here is T-shirt weather. Without a heavy winter coat many military rifles can beat the shoulder up pretty quickly, in part because the short length of pull doesn't encourage pulling tight into the shoulder.
A slip on pad can be used in warmer weather, then removed in cold weather, giving about the same feel regardless of clothing options to suit the weather.

[ilcop22]

I use a limb saver slip-on pad on my 91/30s. Thing is just fantastic, and only around $30 smackers. Gives you a slightly longer LOP, but not much.

[birdadly]

I wanted to get out today to try 'er out again, but the weather was too unpredicatable so I cleaned :( It's probably a good thing though as I have good quarter-sized bruise from it. I'll definitely try my recoil pad until it gets colder outside.

I can't believe how tough it is to find brass bullets for this caliber around here. Out of one small gun shop, Cabelas, Scheels and Fleet Farm, only Cabelas had some. Both the S&B and the Prvi (sp?). The Prvi was quite cheaper so I wonder if I should switch to those. I figure I'll buy 100 rounds, shoot them, and then use those for reloading. I bought the one box of S&B thinking they might be better, but since then, I've read that both are reasonable for reloading.

I can't wait for a mold for this (I need to slug my barrel real soon), learn how to reload for rifle, and start shooting this thing more and more :) -Brad

[Gtek]

Confirmed, birdadly has the disease. Gtek

[Three44s]

Yup, he's got the mark of the beast for sure!!

Myself, I like the Privi brass the best for the money.

Have you tried Graf and Son???

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12651


Three 44s

[Multigunner]

Sellier & Bellot cases for the .303 are fine if the rifle has minimum acceptable headspace up to .068, but any looser than that will see a very short case life.
The 7.62 Mosin Nagants I've fired so far, only a few, seem to be easier on brass than an Enfield with the same milspec headspace would be.
I think is a matter of case geometry, the larger diameter case body not gripping chamber walls in quite the same way.

Its just as likely that the MN ammo I used was like the .303 milspec ammo I've used which showed no obvious stretching even in rifles with max headspace.

The S&B brass I had that displayed short reloading life also had an obviously thinner web than other commercial cases.
Necks got brittle quickly. When I rectified headspace to allow more reloads I found that annealing the necks became necessary after two or more reloads.
Once headspace had been dealt with and necks annealed case life was pretty good.

Primer pockets of the lots I was using were far too tight for US commercial primers. I reamed these pockets to eliminate a radiused bottom edge and things worked fine.
I've heard later lots had better primer pockets.

All in all few seem to like S&B for reloading.

Privi cases have a much better reputation.

The only loading of the 7.62X54R that I've done so far was by way of using up empty primed steel cases left from an experiment in loading the .303 with pulled 7.62 Steel core bullets and salvaged powder. That experiment worked out great.
I loaded some of the primed cases using Winchester 760 powder and Hornady .312 150 gr bullets. These also worked great. The friend I made these loads for could cut popcycle sticks with his MN at 25 yards. He even cut some edgewise. This with a bore like the surface of the moon.

[birdadly]

Ha, I'm definitely hooked. Well, I'm hooked on it all, reloading, casting and growing my collection :) I'm trying to go slightly slow with it all, as the reloading and casting first started around March!

Well, what I did with my 45acp to get me going, was buy 500 rounds of winchester white box, and start reloading them with factory rounds, and now I'm reloading them with my cast lead! I figure I will do the same with this Mosin as it will make me feel comfortable.

Last week I went to Scheels and they had nothing in 7.62x54r!! My friend that works there was surprised and without me knowing it, when I went in tonight there was a bunch of Winchester boxes there.

So I'd like to get an opinion or two on Winchester in this caliber. I recall reading, although I forget where it was, that they had tight primer holes? If this is so, perhaps I should still go with the Prvi brand. But I do like the Winchester name, and I like how they've worked in my 45acp.

Thanks for the continued information and comments! Multigunner, I want you to know that I appreciate your lengthy thoughts, comments and detailed information. I'll admit that some of it goes over my head to begin with, but I'm saving this thread and reading it over and over until I understand it all :)

So thanks for helping me learn about this stuff! -Brad

[ilcop22]

Well, what I did with my 45acp to get me going, was buy 500 rounds of winchester white box, and start reloading them with factory rounds, and now I'm reloading them with my cast lead! I figure I will do the same with this Mosin as it will make me feel comfortable.


You should look into buying or trading once fired brass. I'm a king-cheapo reloader, and to me buying factory ammo to shoot up for brass is not the most cost effective means, especially on overpriced .45 ACP. The Swappin' and Sellin' section of Cast Boolits is an excellent source for brass and other items. But hey, I'm just the guy who picks up the spent casings off the range ground, takes home the contents of the "dud bin", and digs up shot boolits from the berm on empty ranges... but I only pay $2.56 per box of 50 .45 ACP. ;)

[birdadly]

Oh I'm right there with ya ilcop22! I'm just not completely ready to reload rifle, as 45acp is the only thing I've done. My thought was by the time I shoot thru 100 rounds with the Mosin, I'd have the rest of my equipment and knowledge to reload for it.

I can surely be cheap at times but I don't mind buying decent stuff at the beginning. One little thing is that reloading brass that I've already fired once myself does give me some extra comfort. And yep I surely agree with you that buying once-fired from you fellas here is a great idea. If I were ready to go with reloading for the Mosin I'd buy some from the guy selling the PPU stuff right now.

Thanks for your insight man! -Brad

[wallenba]

Welcome. My first mil-surp also was a 91/30. No regrets. They make a 91/30 specific recoil butt pad for the beast. I lengthens the pull a bit too. It does take some authority to close the bolt. Push in one swift motion with an open palm and it gets easier. Disassemble the bolt assembly to get all the goo out too, it makes it smoother. Watch the firing pin height when reassmbling (.075-.095) too much length is DANGEROUS. Lots of youtube stuff on line covering most everything.

[ilcop22]

A funny quip regarding the 91/30 bolt from 7.62x54r.net:

You know it's a 91/30 when You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2x4.

[rhbrink]

Ha, I'm definitely hooked. Well, I'm hooked on it all, reloading, casting and growing my collection :) I'm trying to go slightly slow with it all, as the reloading and casting first started around March!

Well, what I did with my 45acp to get me going, was buy 500 rounds of winchester white box, and start reloading them with factory rounds, and now I'm reloading them with my cast lead! I figure I will do the same with this Mosin as it will make me feel comfortable.

Last week I went to Scheels and they had nothing in 7.62x54r!! My friend that works there was surprised and without me knowing it, when I went in tonight there was a bunch of Winchester boxes there.

So I'd like to get an opinion or two on Winchester in this caliber. I recall reading, although I forget where it was, that they had tight primer holes? If this is so, perhaps I should still go with the Prvi brand. But I do like the Winchester name, and I like how they've worked in my 45acp.

Thanks for the continued information and comments! Multigunner, I want you to know that I appreciate your lengthy thoughts, comments and detailed information. I'll admit that some of it goes over my head to begin with, but I'm saving this thread and reading it over and over until I understand it all :)

So thanks for helping me learn about this stuff! -Brad

I bought winchester brass when I first started loading for my Mosin and it has the same primer pocket problem as being too small, had to ream mine just to get a primer to fit. i have been told that it is made overseas by Privi but don't know for sure. The brass was very hard also so I annealed it too since then it has worked very well and haven't lost a single case after many firing

Seems like a lot of trouble but believe me it is worth the effort.

Richard
Missourians for Mosins

[nhopper]

Good thread about the Mosin. I have a 1925 Hex receiver converted Dragoon rifle that I shoot from time to time. I made the mistake last fall of shooting about 80 rounds of Bulgarian milsurp ammo in a sitting. The blunt trauma to the shoulder was gruesome. I had about a 6x4 area on my shoulder that was swollen, purple and yellow and very tender. Those steel core bullets are just amazing at what they can do to plate steel, cast iron engine blocks, or even gigantic tree trunks. I retrieved one from about 18" of dirt to find the steel core completely intact. They are not armor piercing rounds by design, but they certainly would do the job.

What I find most irritating is how quickly the barrel heats up. Any more than about 40 rounds and its blazing hot.

Using the open sights, I struggle to keep rounds on target at 100 yards. This is me, not the ammo. Equally irritating is the rifle's tendency to shoot both high and to the right consistently. I have found that with the front sight slid all the way to the back, and out of the 100 m click spot, you can keep them at proper elevation at 100 yards. However, the consistent right grouping still persists. In all my reading, the subject of the bayonet comes up time and again. At an unsupervised outdoor range, I affixed the bayonet and found substantial improvement in shooting the rifle. Groups were tighter and more centered. It was also easier to shoot having more mass to resist my wobbling.

Good luck using a baynet at a supervised range. Ironic, I think since the 2800 fps bullet would do more damage to another person than a properly secure bayonet. But that's life.

I found a lot of good youtube videos showing shimming the seer spring and floating the barrel. This was of great help in lightening the insane trigger pull. I also removed the top handguard while shooting both to help the barrel cool down and to keep the top handguard off the barrel.

Since deer hunting and ranges don't jive with an 18" bayonet, no matter how cool it looks, I'm going to be picking up a front sight adjustment tool to slide the post a teensy bit to the right to get things back in line.

One question, though, about this: when adjusting the windage on the rifle, will range to target factor in? For instance, if I adjust windage to center the shots at a 50 yard target, will they then be need to be readjusted for a 25 yard or 100 yard distance? Or will the 50 yard windage work for other reasonable distances?

As factory non-corrosive ammo goes, what brands deliver good, consistent performance in FMJ?

[ilcop22]

Those steel core bullets are just amazing at what they can do to plate steel, cast iron engine blocks, or even gigantic tree trunks. I retrieved one from about 18" of dirt to find the steel core completely intact. They are not armor piercing rounds by design, but they certainly would do the job.
Most commie ammo is mild steel core. It's not AP, but you can expect most surplus from the east bloc to have steel core, light ball. They do make some lead, but I've not seen it for sale. Also, ALL 7.62x54r surplus ammo is corrosive. Just a nice thing to know when some retailers "forget" to mention that fact. :groner:



One question, though, about this: when adjusting the windage on the rifle, will range to target factor in? For instance, if I adjust windage to center the shots at a 50 yard target, will they then be need to be readjusted for a 25 yard or 100 yard distance? Or will the 50 yard windage work for other reasonable distances?

The only thing that affects windage is the wind. Bullet trajectory follows an arc. When you fire a round, you're essentially lobbing the bullet at the target. This is why you must adjust the elevation of your sights at various distances to change the angle at which the bullet is lobbed. Windage will not change from 0 yards to 1000 yards, only elevation.

[nhopper]

Most commie ammo is mild steel core. It's not AP, but you can expect most surplus from the east bloc to have steel core, light ball. They do make some lead, but I've not seen it for sale. Also, ALL 7.62x54r surplus ammo is corrosive. Just a nice thing to know when some retailers "forget" to mention that fact. :groner:


The only lead core ammo surplus I have ever seen is the Prvi stuff with the NNY headstamp. It is a 182 grain copper jacket, lead core. Brass cased, berdan primed. FMJBT. I have a few hundred rounds of it. It's okay. Pretty consistent for surplus it seems. I pulled a few bullets, which was insanely hard given the crimp, and the charges were pretty close in weight. For the money, you'd be ahead just to pull the bullets and use them, tossing the remainder compared to what Sierra charges per hundred. It is corrosive. I like it when sellers call things, "Mildly corrosive." That's right up there is "kind of pregnant".

Wideners sold it, and SGAmmo sold it, but as a messy greasy lot. I bought some and it is a little haphazard. Lots of goo on the rounds, and some that went click....boom.

[ilcop22]

Kind of pregnant... I like that analogy :mrgreen:

I recently ordered a bunch of surplus 5.45x39 Russian surplus. Nowhere did they mention it was corrosive, but I should have just assumed it was. I found out later when the bore, piston housing and muzzle break turned orange it was, in fact, corrosive.

[rtracy2001]

Mosins are notorious for 'sticky-chamber syndrome.' The easiest way to cure it is to chuck a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun bore brush in your cordless drill, soak it in the solvent of your choice; insert it into the chamber (chamber ONLY), and go to town! Keep the brush out of the bore just for safety's sake. Work at it for a couple of minutes, replenishing the solvent as needed, then clean with patches.

+1 on cleaning the chamber with a shotgun bore brush and electric drill. My mosin was incredibly difficult to open the bolt after firing. One good session with the bore brush in the chamber and the bolt closes and opens almost as well as my Mauser 98s.

I also invested in a Caldwell lead sled+. Huge difference. I went from shooting 1 group of 5 before giving up to more than 20-30 rounds before letting my 12 year old shoot her 20 rounds though it.

[Multigunner]

Most commie ammo is mild steel core. It's not AP, but you can expect most surplus from the east bloc to have steel core, light ball. They do make some lead, but I've not seen it for sale. Also, ALL 7.62x54r surplus ammo is corrosive. Just a nice thing to know when some retailers "forget" to mention that fact. :groner:



The only thing that affects windage is the wind. Bullet trajectory follows an arc. When you fire a round, you're essentially lobbing the bullet at the target. This is why you must adjust the elevation of your sights at various distances to change the angle at which the bullet is lobbed. Windage will not change from 0 yards to 1000 yards, only elevation.

"Spin Drift" might be a factor. Most military ladder sights have built in compensation for spin drift though.
The U S .30-06 has significant spin drift to the right but the Springfield ( and most similar actions with a large ejection opening and solid left wall) also had a faction of an inch of muzzle jump to the left. Spin drift rectified that jump or throw to the left at about the 600 yard mark, then the bullet would increasingly drift to right of the bore line. The ladder is machined with a lean to left as the rear sight slide is raised past the six hundred yard mark.
The 98K and similar mauser type actions with a large thumb cut out in the left hand receiver wall for easier clip loading probably don't have as much jump to the left as rifles with a more robust sidewall.
I suspect the Mosin Nagant issue rear sight has similar compensation.

Best explanation of spin drift I've seen is that the rapid rotation creates a small area of vacuum at the top rear to the side oposite the direction rotation.
This pulls the base of the bullet slightly to that side, the nose now angled towards direction of rotation.

Since speed of rotation is independent of velocity once the bullet leaves the muzzle the effect increases as the bullet loses velocity at longer ranges.

[birdadly]

Well here's a pic of my second time out. I only had 9 rounds, so that's what I shot. 50 yards again at a different range. I like this group better than the last!

I looked in the chamber area and I do need to clean it up better. I need to be more thurough for certain. I took a qtip to it and actually found some tiny brass shavings; that can't be good. Definitely needs a deep clean before next time out.

I guess I'll go with those Winchester rounds; I'll pick some up tomorrow evening. I looked into what 'annealing' is and figure I will be able to do it when needed. But basically, everyone that reloads for rifle either anneals at some point, or throws out their brass earlier than people who do anneal?

Another fella brought a Mosin he had just picked up while I was out shooting tonight. We compared and he said mine was in quite better shape; that made me feel good. He was shooting the corrosive steel-cased bullets. He showed me one and said 'this is the only reason I don't like shooting these'... and the case was split bigtime! He says 1 in about 15 or so will split like that. He didn't seem worried, but that seems crazy to me!

Okay, good chatting with you fellas! -Brad

[Von Dingo]

Over the last few years, John Barsness has related an annealing technique with a candle. Hold/roll the case between your fingers and thumb, with the case neck over the flame of a candle. When the case gets to hot to hold, clean the neck with a wet towel, cooling at the same time.

To lengthen case life, and only having one rifle in the caliber, neck size, or partial full length size.

[ilcop22]

I looked in the chamber area and I do need to clean it up better. I need to be more thurough for certain. I took a qtip to it and actually found some tiny brass shavings; that can't be good. Definitely needs a deep clean before next time out.

Brass shavings or copper from the jacket?


I looked into what 'annealing' is and figure I will be able to do it when needed. But basically, everyone that reloads for rifle either anneals at some point, or throws out their brass earlier than people who do anneal?

Arguments for and against. I generally don't bother, but it's a personal choice. The method I have used is fill up a small pan with water, to a level about 1/4 up the case. Place the case (standing) in the pan. With a torch, heat the neck and shoulder area just until it starts to turn color, then knock it over into the pan, thus cooling the case.


He showed me one and said 'this is the only reason I don't like shooting these'... and the case was split bigtime! He says 1 in about 15 or so will split like that. He didn't seem worried, but that seems crazy to me!

It was probably surplus. I have some Romanian 7.62x54r surplus from 1986. Every now and again a case will rupture, causing quite a bit extra recoil. The 91/30 is a tank, so I never worry about it, either. EDIT: A good rule to follow when shooting surplus is to inspect every case for corrosion or other deterioration. You really don't want to risk case ruptures in any gun, as they can result in catastrophic failure, destruction of the firearm, or minor to severe injury.

[birdadly]

Most vids I saw were using a torch. I don't mind the idea of a candle though as I have no torch at the moment :) I'll keep looking at vids for info.

The shavings looked yellowish but I didn't inspect them well enough. I hope to clean the gun tomorrow night and I'll take better look at what I find. I assumed it was brass.

Thanks for the info on annealing. I checked out a few youtube vids and it looks easy enough. I like to read as many opinions as I can find and then make a decision on what I want to do :) I figure it's good to learn from others that have already gone through what I'm about to do!

Yep his was surplus. He said he has to clean up the gun after each range trip.

I bought a few boxes of the Winchester rounds... hopefully it'll treat me well both in shooting and reloading the brass. -Brad

[nhopper]

Well here's a pic of my second time out. I only had 9 rounds, so that's what I shot. 50 yards again at a different range. I like this group better than the last!

I looked in the chamber area and I do need to clean it up better. I need to be more thurough for certain. I took a qtip to it and actually found some tiny brass shavings; that can't be good. Definitely needs a deep clean before next time out.



When shooting steel case ammo, I have noticed little bits of metal in the chamber too. I don't know what it is. Perhaps bits from the primer pocket, perhaps something else. It could be the bullet getting shaved during chambering. I don't know. I used brake cleaner to blast out the chamber. I had a lot of issues with the bolt sticking shut or being difficult to open. No more issues.

[glenkans]

Birdadly, I know you mentioned reloading for your Mosin but you can get mil. surplus ammo for 5.oo a box of 20 or less if you shop around and buy in bulk. That's pretty darn reasonable. It's steel cased like most you buy and that also makes for tough extraction if there's some leftover cosmolene. If you haven't reloaded before, steel cases aren't reloaded so they're expendable. I enjoy the Mosin Nagant and am impressed with about everything about it. Get on the net and check some sited dedicated to the M N rifles and follow links for about anything you'd need including ammo for your fine rifle. Good shooting ,Glen
P S come back here cause these guys here know more than we ever will

[ilcop22]

Pretty cheap, but not as cheap as casting and reloading or as reliable.

[birdadly]

Hi Glen. I'm definitely going to take your advice on looking for dedicated forums for the Mosin. I mentioned reloading simply because I just started reloading earlier this year (45acp) and I'd like to keep going with it with all of my firearms. It's not mainly for cost reasons, but for a hobby.

I just slugged my barrel tonight and the thickest it seems to be is .3145 and the lower groove seems to be .3016. This is the first time I've slugged a barrel though, so hopefully I did it correct. I started it at the muzzle and went all the way to the chamber. It went quite a bit easier near the chamber, but perhaps I had it better lubed down there.

Anyway, I've signed up for an NOE mould and now have to tell him what size I want. I believe my options are .311 .314 or .316". I don't know if his moulds usually drop bigger or not. I'm guessing I should get a .316" and size down to.. umm... .315? I'll look into this a little more tomorrow during the day, just wanted to write a bit before bed :) -Brad

[Dutch4122]

.316" is the mold diameter you should order.

[ilcop22]

Hi Glen. I'm definitely going to take your advice on looking for dedicated forums for the Mosin.

http://www.7.62x54r.net is a great site with great forums. You might start there.



I just slugged my barrel tonight and the thickest it seems to be is .3145 and the lower groove seems to be .3016. This is the first time I've slugged a barrel though, so hopefully I did it correct. I started it at the muzzle and went all the way to the chamber. It went quite a bit easier near the chamber, but perhaps I had it better lubed down there.

Sounds like you did it right. It's easier further down the bore because at that point the slug has formed to the lands and grooves and simply slides along.