Problem seating .22 gc

[Mohavedog]

Hello,
I'm asking to find out if anyone is aware of a problem with the Saeco #221 mould in the gc area. My checked boolits are coming out of the Lee push through .225 sizer concave on the base. The problem near as I can determine is that the Gator checks measure .043 inside cup depth and the relief on the boolit base is only .035 high. The gc crimps on the base before the gc is flush with the base, then the ram pushes the center of the gc flush. This leaves the gc concave. Everything else is ok and the checks are crimped tight and seemingly square. I'm concerned this will cause accuracy issues. The checks are annealed. Do Lyman or Hornady .22 checks have shallower cups?
I appreciate any info or advice anyone can share. This is my first attempt at working with .22 slugs. Thanks, Mohavedog

[JIMinPHX]

A Hornady .22 cal gas check measures about .210" on the ID & .041" high inside, just for reference.

I don't know that mold in particular, but it sounds to me like your mold is throwing a boolit with a short GC shank. Is it possible that someone in the past may have fly cut the top of the blocks to remove scrapes? Do your boolits come out at the expected weight?

Do the concave boolits shoot well? I've never tried them like that before.

[Mohavedog]

Thanks for response JIMinPHX. I bought the mould used from a board member here and nothing was said about any machining. I kinda doubt it as the machining pattern looks identical to the bottom of the mould. The mould is supposed to throw a boolit of 60 gr and mine weigh 58.2 w/out gc and 59.6 w/coppper gc. My mix is ww/lino and small amount of tin for bhn of 17.2 as my Lee hardness tester tells me. They look beautiful except for that short gc relief. I would guess if cast from straight ww they would weigh close to the 60 gr.

The accuracy is the unknown factor as I haven't shot any yet. I plan to test a few but don't know how soon. That concave base looks like **** but once loaded only I would know, lol.

I was just hoping someone had a similar experience with that particular mould that could say yea or nay about devoting any more time with this. Mohavedog

[GabbyM]

Saeco sent out some #221 molds a couple years ago with short check shanks. I've got one I should have sent back. One of our members from Kansas got a four cavity cut that way and had it replaced.

[madsenshooter]

Redding/Saeco has been very good about replacing things for me. I cracked several 30/40 dies that I was abusing by using them as case head swagging dies. They even replaced one that I had boxed up to send, but somebody I'd picked up hitching stole the box out of my car! Your shank is too short and since you can't easily add metal to the mold, it's either sent it back, or put something between the base and the inner face of the check.

[Mohavedog]

Saeco sent out some #221 molds a couple years ago with short check shanks. I've got one I should have sent back. One of our members from Kansas got a four cavity cut that way and had it replaced.

Thank you so much for that info. I was going nuts trying to figure out if I had a problem mould, and if so what to do about it. Sounds like this may be one of Saeco's moulds with a too short gas check relief. I'll contact Redding/Saeco and see if they'll do anything for me. I'll be optimistic but can see them not doing anything since I'm not the original buyer. I'll be honest with them and see how far it gets me. We'll see. Thanks again. Mohavedog

[JIMinPHX]

If they don't want to replace the mold, another option would be to punch your own gas checks with a custom check punching die. That's a whole other can of worms to open, but it is a plausible option.

Before sending that mold back, I would see how the boolits shoot. If your gun likes them, you might want to keep that mold.

[CWME]

I have a 4 cav #221 with a short OVERSIZE shank. Getting checks on mine is a exercise in futility and frustration. I should have sent it back but had it for a year and a half before I was able to use it.
Not impressed with spending that kind of $ to get garbage. My #315 is a dream though...

[Mohavedog]

If they don't want to replace the mold, another option would be to punch your own gas checks with a custom check punching die. That's a whole other can of worms to open, but it is a plausible option.

Before sending that mold back, I would see how the boolits shoot. If your gun likes them, you might want to keep that mold.

JIM both of your comments have validity. They "may" shoot just fine but I kinda doubt it. I really intended to make my own gc's at some point. Maybe that point is now here. How easy or difficult is it to adjust a checkmaker to throw checks with different cup depths? I would think it not difficult but not ever making my own checks I just don't know. Other than the short check shank this mold casts the best looking boolits I've ever made. It's really a dream to use. Thanks, John

[onondaga]

I get cupped gas checks with Hornady checks on boolits I cast from a Lyman 225646. I use a Lee push through sizer to size and seat gas checks.


The cupping is very visible and consistent but I have no accuracy issue. My pet load in .223 uses this bullet at 2550 fps and is sub MOA at 300 yards from a varmint barreled Handi-Rifle with a 1:12 twist.

I did have one problem developing that load that may be relative to what you may see happening developing your load. My Boolit length varied when I used liquid dish soap as a pre lube for boolit sizing/checking. I switched and began that pre-lube with 45:45:10 Recluse tumble lube and the variance in boolit length diminished to below statistical relevance. Final lube is with 2 coats of that same tumble lube.

That is unusual accuracy and my belief is that it is mostly related to bore polishing to a match grade finish that I did myself and recommend with all NEF barrels as they are OK but not match grade slick that cast boolits like and need to do their best in my experience.

Gary

[Mohavedog]

Gary, that is encouraging. I'll just give these a good test before I try to replace the mould. Maybe I'll get lucky. I also prelube before sizing with 45/45/10. They go through the .225 sizer like butter, but I'm only wsizing down about .0005". Thanks for your valued info. Mohavedog.

[JIMinPHX]

[QUOTE=onondaga;1386444 My pet load in .223 uses this bullet at 2550 fps and is sub MOA at 300 yards from a varmint barreled Handi-Rifle with a 1:12 twist.
[/QUOTE]

Gary, that is extremely impressive accuracy. I've gotten good accuracy from a 1:12 Handi-rifle, but not that good. Would you care to share the data for your pet load? My best results to date have come from compressed loads of RE-15 with40-50 grain jacketed bullets, which shot well, but burned very dirty. My results with lead have not been as good. I'm interested in improving that.

[JIMinPHX]

How easy or difficult is it to adjust a checkmaker to throw checks with different cup depths? I would think it not difficult but not ever making my own checks I just don't know.

That would depend on what check maker you use & who makes it for you. Many of the check makers work in two steps. The first step is to punch a flat disc. The second step is to form the disc into a cup. On that type of rig, you would probably just need to get a disc puncher that punches a smaller disc. That should be a fairly easy change. On a progressive forming die, the change would probably be much more involved.

You need to contact a GC punch manufacturer & ask them what they can offer you. Pat Marlin, here on the board makes GC punches. I don't know if he makes them in .22 cal or if he does custom sizes, but he might be a good first person to ask.

[onondaga]

Jim, My load should be worked up starting ~ 6% low. If your groups don't get smaller as you ladder charges, this is not for your rifle.

My alloy is Lino:COWW @ 8:2 very hard and towel dropped not chilled.
Lyman 225646 GC sized .2255", All-up Boolit weight- 59.2 gr
Charge: 19.9 grains AA2230
2.204" LOA in my rifle is .004" off lands
Brass is MIL, all same lot, Lee Zip Trimmed after prep, fire-forming and neck sizing.
Velocity 2543 fps verified
Lube:45:45:10 Recluse once before sizing/checking, twice after

A Lee collet neck size die is set back bumped to neck tension brass lightly on this .2255" boolit. They seat snug, but I can pull them by hand. No crimp other than to reduce a .002" case mouth flair back to zero.

Once again, I really think the polished bore is the deal maker here for the accuracy and velocity after you have the Boolit fit for your rifle.

This is not a MAX pressure load with AA2230 but you may run out of accuracy before you get there depending on your bore etc. You may get luckier too and get past my velocity with accuracy if your rifle likes this load better. AA2230 hits MAX pressures in .223 Rem. with this weight boolit at about 21 grains.

NOTE: My NEF Ultra Varmint Handi loves this load but my AR15 match rifle shoots clean with this load full length sized but sorrowfully groups only 2 MOA with it.

Gary

[JIMinPHX]

Thanks Gary, That's an alloy, lube & powder that I haven't tried yet & some good tips on your loading practices. That's also a heavier boolit than I would have thought to try in that twist. That gives me a number of good things to add to my to-do list for the .223.

My bore in that gun is pretty well polished out. I've gotten down to a 3/8" group at 100 yards with a few different jacketed bullets, but my cast loads haven't caught up to that level of accuracy yet. I'm hoping to fix that some day. I have managed to get gas checked Bators & Lyman 225415 boolits up over 3,000fps with no leading, but accuracy was terrible. I'd be very happy to get down to 1 moa @ 300 yds with a 2450fps load in that gun. You've given me a new goal to reach for & some possible options to help me approach it.

Thanks,
Jim

[onondaga]

If you have a 22 Cal. Hoppe's Bore Snake and Turtle Wax Chrome Polish and Rust Remover, try a touch-up bore polishing that won't enlarge your bore and will get rid of all traces of copper.:

Drop the bore snake weight through the chamber and out the muzzle . before the thick part gets to the chamber add a teaspoon of polish into the chamber. Do 10 pull throughs, Add another teaspoon every 10th pull and do 60 -80 pull throughs with polish. Add no more polish and do 40 pull throughs. That does it-- nothing else. Start shooting.

Clean the bore snake by soaking with 409 or mean green for a couple hours and then rinse thoroughly and hang to dry over-nite.

At the range I pull the clean bore snake through every 5 shots and at home I do a regular cleaning routine with Hoppe's Elete, brushes and patches.

My polishing will work to break in a new barrel without shooting also. If you had copper fouling, and polish like this you will see your velocity go up and pressure drop a bit too. The hard slick shine in the bore makes all the difference in my shooting with cast boolits.

Good Luck trying the AA2230 load. That powder meters flawlessly in my old Lyman #55....+- less than .1 gr.


Gary

[Mohavedog]

I sent an inquiry to Redding/Saeco about the issue of the short gs shank on the #221 mould. I received a timely response from c.s. rep Chris Fox. He/She asked me to return the mould and include some castings and gas checks "for evaluation and repair".
Before I send the mould back I would like to request someone here that has that mould to measure the gc shank length on theirs and let me know the correct measurement. I don't want to be faced with the situation that Redding/Saeco tells me that the mould fits their design parameters, which would be a waste of effort.

So far I'm favorably impressed with Redding/Saeco that they're even willing to deal with me as the second owner. Mohavedog

[Mohavedog]

Hello Folks, as I promised here is an update on my dealings with Redding/Saeco. After receiving the email from customer service advising me to send the mould in for repair or replacement, I did just that. Today I received another email telling me that it appeared that this mould was manufactured prior to Redding buying Saeco in 1995 and that there was nothing they would do for me, and they were returning the mould to me. The reason given was for "liability reasons".

I called Redding/Saeco customer service and after a brief conversation with a lower level rep I was put through to the CEO, Mr. Robin Sharpless(sp). We had a rather extensive gentlemanly conversation that took upwards of 30 min. Suffice it to say that their position was from legal requirements related to the purchase of Saeco and that they couldn't be responsible for product that was made prior to Redding's purchase.

So here is the germane issue as I see it. Consumers who are used to buying a product because of the name recognition and reputation of the past, and expect reasonable treatment based on that name and past rep have to understand one thing. When a company is bought by another company, the former company ceases to exist as before. It is now a new company and policies of the past are null and void.

I really didn't understand that (but I don't understand much when lawyers get involved). Therefore I'm putting this out here for the edification of those who are uninformed like I was. If your Saeco product was made prior to sometime in 1995 you will not have any satisfaction with warrantee help. Unfortunatly this is the common situation with many of the old American companies today. Check out the reputations of Porter-Cable, Delta, Dewalt, and many others after their spin-offs to conglomerates.

This wasn't meant to be a rant but only for informational purposes, I got a bit carried away. In all fairness, Mr. Sharpless offered to sell me a new mould for the half price of approx $68. (Note: Midway's price is $92.99 currently) I declined.

Mohavedog

[GabbyM]

Well you've a set of blank blocks now. Maybe someone would like to cut a larger bullet in them. Would'nt be to hard to cut out a 22 cavity.

[Mohavedog]

Well you've a set of blank blocks now. Maybe someone would like to cut a larger bullet in them. Would'nt be to hard to cut out a 22 cavity.

Thanks GabbyM, eventually something like that may happen, but probably wouldn't save too much in view of the cost to re cut to diff caliber. I have thought it might be feasible to ream out the gc and make it a plain base. It might make a nice plinkin or small game boolitat around 1300fps or so. And then also be a good candidate for one of Pat's plain base gas check makers.

Interestingly, I have been in contact with the individual that I purchased the mould from and he told me that he had the same problem when he tried to use Gator gc's. He said he had success with Hornady checks with this mould. He found, like I did, that the boolit shank was too short for the Gator checks. His experience was that the Hornady checks were shorter allowing a better fit. Now, this contradicts the measurements that JIMinPHX mentioned earlier. He is sending me some Hornady checks to test before I purchase 2k of them.
Thanks for your input. Mohavedog