444 w/ heavy boolits is good

[Marlin Junky]

The .444 is showing promise with my 340+ grain Accurate Mold coupled with medium sphericals from Accurate Arms. Those looking for a big bore who burn (and stock) lots of 2230-2520 in their .223's and .308's might want to consider the .444 and heavy boolits.

50 yards, cold clean barrel. The first shot was the one high and left. I've got to look into the the tendency to vertical string though. I think the next time out I'll shoot this load without my magazine hanging on the barrel. Velocity with 49 to 50 grains of DP-74 and Surplus 2520 is between 1800 and 1850 from the 18.5" carbine. I think I tried 51 grains of one or the other powder (I'll get better organized) and got a tad more velocity out of the stubby ported barrel but the vertical stringing was more prominent. You'll probably need to fire-form before getting this much powder in the case without compression. Also, set your dies to "neck size" only (i.e., don't touch the head area) and the brass should go on and on like the energizer bunny; and, at the same time allow a couple more grains of the slower (for this cartridge) sphericals. Pressure is pretty darn mild and I've been having good luck with BHN 13-14 alloy (measured weeks after casting). Fired/sized cases virtually remain the same length shot after shot if they are fully fire-formed to the chamber (approx. .470" at the pressure ring)... QuickLoad says I'm in the 30K PSI realm.

[leftiye]

That's good enough. I don't imagine you'll be varmint hunting with that (targets are bigger on big game).

[Marlin Junky]

That's good enough. I don't imagine you'll be varmint hunting with that (targets are bigger on big game).

Heck, the 444 should work out to be my one-size-fits-all cartridge; i.e., porcupine to elk out to 200 yards or so.

MJ

[44man]

That is too good to mess with! :lovebooli
Just your hold on the short barrel might cause what you call stringing. Recoil changes it seems, like a revolver.
Leave it be and go kill animals!

[Marlin Junky]

Ramshot TAC and X-Terminator should also work fine but may require a water dropped (or HT'd boolit) because the pressure will be higher as will the velocity with a full case of powder. I kinda wish I had bought a bunch of X- when Midway (IIRC... could have been Graf though) was selling it dirt cheap. H-335 and the WC's of that burn rate should be others that excel with a little harder boolit. Point is, increasing the nominal boolit weight for this cartridge to rifle-like-weights (SD: 260+) opens up the 444's powder realm to include stuff like AA2520 and perhaps even 4895, powders I would have never considered for 300-ish boolits.

My mold drops 'em at approx. 0.4345" and I've been sizing to .4330" in a custom die that is very round. I was thinking about trying to load 'em unsized because the neck tension varies a little on a few of my cases but I may just put those cases aside. I don't know yet if a .4345" boolit will chamber but there's no sign of the .433's sticking anywhere. The barrel 'mikes' .4305" in the grooves at the muzzle and I've never tried a boolit .004" over groove so that might either be fun or an utter failure. I think this cartridge with heavy boolits deserves more attention and I'm considering the purchase of a 444 single shot.

Anybody know where I can get a .434" sizing die for my Lyman 450?

MJ

[Lloyd Smale]

my outfitter likes the ballistic cast 340 lfngc. Heres an article my buddy wrote on the 444. He perfers the same bullet. It will give you an idea how well it works. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/anderson/444Outfitter.htm

[no34570]

The .444 is showing promise with my 340+ grain Accurate Mold coupled with medium sphericals from Accurate Arms. Those looking for a big bore who burn (and stock) lots of 2230-2520 in their .223's and .308's might want to consider the .444 and heavy boolits.

50 yards, cold clean barrel. The first shot was the one high and left. I've got to look into the the tendency to vertical string though. I think the next time out I'll shoot this load without my magazine hanging on the barrel. Velocity with 49 to 50 grains of DP-74 and Surplus 2520 is between 1800 and 1850 from the 18.5" carbine. I think I tried 51 grains of one or the other powder (I'll get better organized) and got a tad more velocity out of the stubby ported barrel but the vertical stringing was more prominent. You'll probably need to fire-form before getting this much powder in the case without compression. Also, set your dies to "neck size" only (i.e., don't touch the head area) and the brass should go on and on like the energizer bunny; and, at the same time allow a couple more grains of the slower (for this cartridge) sphericals. Pressure is pretty darn mild and I've been having good luck with BHN 13-14 alloy (measured weeks after casting). Fired/sized cases virtually remain the same length shot after shot if they are fully fire-formed to the chamber (approx. .470" at the pressure ring)... QuickLoad says I'm in the 30K PSI realm.
Marlin Junky
Your 444,is it a microgroove or Ballard?

[44man]

Marlin Junky
Your 444,is it a microgroove or Ballard?
Not much difference as both are stuck on grooves .003" deep.
I am betting it is a 1 in 20" twist.

[Marlin Junky]

Not much difference as both are stuck on grooves .003" deep.
I am betting it is a 1 in 20" twist.

Actually, I think .003" is being a bit optimistic. I'll check it again, but I'm pretty sure my barrel spec's are .425"/.4305" at the muzzle. Nevertheless, the Outfitter was the first 444 to incorporate the newly configured "Ballard" rifling which is maybe .0002" deeper than the MircoGroove. However, the Outfitter has half the grooves of earlier 444's (6 vs. 12) which probably means earlier guns provide a better grip on the boolit due to increased surface area. The big plus for the Outfitter is the faster twist allowing rifle-like boolit weights to be stabilized past 100 yards.

On the other hand, if one is looking for maximum velocity with 300-ish grain boolits from an Outfitter, I think water dropping or heat treating will be necessary (because of the shallow rifling and faster twist) and probably, the slow twist (1:38") MicroGroove models will do a better job (with softer alloy). Also, faster powders (H335 or faster) will be required to achieve 2100 fps with the 300's which also demands a harder alloy (Lyman#2 or better) because of higher chamber pressures.

MJ

P.S. Did I mention a .433" boolit is required too... and actually, a .434" boolit will easily fit into a fireformed case but I think the "throat" is .433".

Lloyd,

Thanks for the link to the Outfitter article but you guys need to step the boolit diameter up to at least .432" to see a remarkable improvement in accuracy. Yes, the 340 is a good balance of weight and velocity; however, I'm looking to extend the COL a bit (through some easy gunsmithing) for a couple more grains of powder capacity and up the boolit weight to 350 (right around an inch long).

Thanks for your interest.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know that its nessiary, at least in my gun. I shoot that 340 lfngc sized to 430 cast out of 5050 ww/lyno pushed by 4198 into an inch at a 100 yards for 5 shots when i was testing with a scope on it. The scope is off and i doubt i could repeat it with the peep but 430 bullets do just fine in my gun if there hard. By the way i was shooting them at around 1800 fps and got absolutely no leading. My outfitter is the second most accurate lever gun i own next to an old 336adl 3030 and all ive shot are 430 bullets out of it. Maybe id cut a 1/10 of an inch off that 5 shot group by going larger but i think its doing good enough as is. At least it is for me. I would be interested in the results of your col deal though as bullets sure do have to be seated deap in that case. Im not really conserned with the extra powder capasity as the 444 does just fine as is and if i want more theres 4570s in the safe. What i like about the 444 is its kind of a baby 4570. Almost the snort with half the recoil. What id be intersted in it for is the ability to shoot more bullet designs. The short seating dept really limits what bullets can be used without crimping on the bullet. I dont know the status of ballistic cast anymore or if you can even get this mold but if you want a few bullets to try i can send you some. I have them sized to 430 and 432 i believe and could even cast you up some you could size yourself. I could also send you the mold for a while if you wanted to cast them out of a specific alloy for yourself. Pm me if your intersted.


Actually, I think .003" is being a bit optimistic. I'll check it again, but I'm pretty sure my barrel spec's are .425"/.4305" at the muzzle. Nevertheless, the Outfitter was the first 444 to incorporate the newly configured "Ballard" rifling which is maybe .0002" deeper than the MircoGroove. However, the Outfitter has half the grooves of earlier 444's (6 vs. 12) which probably means earlier guns provide a better grip on the boolit due to increased surface area. The big plus for the Outfitter is the faster twist allowing rifle-like boolit weights to be stabilized past 100 yards.

On the other hand, if one is looking for maximum velocity with 300-ish grain boolits from an Outfitter, I think water dropping or heat treating will be necessary (because of the shallow rifling and faster twist) and probably, the slow twist (1:38") MicroGroove models will do a better job (with softer alloy). Also, faster powders (H335 or faster) will be required to achieve 2100 fps with the 300's which also demands a harder alloy (Lyman#2 or better) because of higher chamber pressures.

MJ

P.S. Did I mention a .433" boolit is required too... and actually, a .434" boolit will easily fit into a fireformed case but I think the "throat" is .433".

Lloyd,

Thanks for the link to the Outfitter article but you guys need to step the boolit diameter up to at least .432" to see a remarkable improvement in accuracy. Yes, the 340 is a good balance of weight and velocity; however, I'm looking to extend the COL a bit (through some easy gunsmithing) for a couple more grains of powder capacity and up the boolit weight to 350 (right around an inch long).

Thanks for your interest.

[tek4260]

Has anyone ever tried this boolit in their 444?

http://mp-molds.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=3&=SID

[Lloyd Smale]

yes and its another great 444 bullet
Has anyone ever tried this boolit in their 444?

http://mp-molds.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=3&=SID

[Marlin Junky]

...The scope is off and i doubt i could repeat it with the peep but 430 bullets do just fine in my gun if there hard.

Your greater hardness will make the difference. I shot the same alloy at the same diameter, cast from the same mold, to the same velocity with 4759 and the rounds went all over the place. I think it's pretty safe to say that boolit deformation (or lack thereof) is the key.

My boolit seats to 2.583" and chambers easily in BHN 13-14 metal and that's before the design modification that reduced the diameter just ahead of the leading band. Actually, I think before I have it cut in 3 cavity brass, I'll change that dimension to .429" Have a look:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-340B-D.png

As far as lengthening the COL is concerned there are a several things that need to be considered. I have another 444 custom boolit that seats to and functions flawlessly through the loading/unloading process at 2.588" which is all due to boolit nose design. A secant ogive will not only increase the B.C. it will also clear the ejection port more readily than a WFN. A .290" meplat will also help in that regard. Then you have the very short throat of the 444. Rifling contact begins on my 340 seated to 2.583" about 1/32" beyond a 2.215" case's mouth.

After getting your COL to 2.585-2.590" with boolit design only, you'll need to modify certain action parts in order to gain any COL. My first attempt at that, on the Outfitter, will be to incorporate a Wild West ejector; however, this mod will only allow a 2.65" loaded round (according to the mfr) to clear the ejection port. To feed from the magazine, requires cutting on a few parts such as the cartridge lifter. It's actually pretty easy to move the lifter cartridge stop back to allow a 2.61-2.62" round to cycle from the magazine and I've done that on a couple 30-30's but never to a 444. If you're interested in more details, PM me.



tek4260,

That's a pistol boolit. Sure, it'll work; but, it'll probably seat to only 2.4-2.5" before cramming into the rifling (assuming your Outfitter is chambered like mine).

MJ

[dk17hmr]

That's good enough. I don't imagine you'll be varmint hunting with that (targets are bigger on big game).

I shoot p-dogs with my 444 contender.

[Marlin Junky]

I shoot p-dogs with my 444 contender.

There ya go... let's hear about your loads. There's plenty room here for lighter boolit stuff too.

MJ

[frankenfab]

Marlin Junky-Thanks for all the interesting info. Have you done any work with the Ranch Dog 350 gr.?

[Marlin Junky]

No, not yet but I'm thinking about adding this one to my collection. The RD432-350 was actually the motivation behind my 340. The next revision to my 340 may incorporate 3 instead of 2 grooves and carry 10%-20% less lube. Currently the design carries over a grain of lube and I think that may be a bit too much for 1800-2000 fps rounds. I had Tom cut the lube grooves .025" deep on the "prototype" thinking I might also size this boolit down to fit more conventional 44's. In retrospect, I should have retained his "standard" (my assumption) .020" deep lube grooves since this is a 336 specific design. I actually may acquire a .434" die because I can easily finger seat my .4345" unsized boolits into fire-formed cases. Naturally, one can get the tolerances too close and the next batch of Remington brass could be a tiny bit thicker. If I modify my Outfitter to handle a 2.65" cartridge, I may extend the ogive another 1/16" to increase the B.C. of the next revision. Just to put it into perspective, the goal of all this fiddling is a heavy boolit 444 at 1800-2000 fps with medium burning powder so the cartridge operates at < 35K PSI thus enabling accuracy with alloys softer than Lyman#2. In terms of a ballistic goal, I'd like to get 52-53 grains of AA2520 behind a 345 (+/-) grain BHN 13 boolit and get 1 to 1.5 MOA from my Outfitter. This load ought to be good for near 1900 fps from the stubby 18.5" barrel and from the 24" XLR, perhaps 2000 fps, which should provide a 175+ yard point blank range on deer sized targets.

MJ

[TCFAN]

Anybody know where I can get a .434" sizing die for my Lyman 450?

MJ

lathesmith can make you a .434 die for your 450. Had him make me a .4345 for my 450. He does good work........Terry

[beladran]

tek.. didnt know you was on here! lol
i got a 330gr SSK designed 44 boolit that i would love some feed back on from 444 marlin users.
http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/beladran/Mobile%20Uploads/A0-119.jpg
if you wanna demo some send me a pm

[Marlin Junky]

lathesmith can make you a .434 die for your 450. Had him make me a .4345 for my 450. He does good work........Terry

Thanks for the referral.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

i got a 330gr SSK designed 44 boolit that i would love some feed back on from 444 marlin users.

Plain base has been real fussy in my Outfitter with the best accuracy in the 1300-1400 fps neighborhood with powders up to and including 4759; however, I haven't shot anything over about BHN 16.

While the bearing to overall length ratio looks good, the crimp groove to meplat length on that boolit will undoubtedly create a round that won't feed through the magazine or eject from the chamber if seated to the crimp groove (in other words, you'll need to keep the COL under 2.59" with unmodified guns). Bottom line is: it's all about fit; therefore, you'll have to give 'em a work out to find out. Did you cast them yourself or buy them from a commercial caster?

MJ

[dk17hmr]

There ya go... let's hear about your loads. There's plenty room here for lighter boolit stuff too.

MJ

I use 250gr swaged hollow pointed bullets made from 40 S&W cases pushed with 55gr of H335 in a RP case with Winchester Magnum Large Rifle Primers. It doesnt burn all the powder in my 14" but its loud, accurate, punishing, it will clear the range, and throws a fire ball you can see on a sunny day......when I need a bench I bring out the 444 contender. I havent bougth a mold for it yet I keep looking at a 300+ grainer for it so I fell good about using it on elk and deer in the mountains.

[beladran]

Plain base has been real fussy in my Outfitter with the best accuracy in the 1300-1400 fps neighborhood with powders up to and including 4759; however, I haven't shot anything over about BHN 16.

While the bearing to overall length ratio looks good, the crimp groove to meplat length on that boolit will undoubtedly create a round that won't feed through the magazine or eject from the chamber if seated to the crimp groove (in other words, you'll need to keep the COL under 2.59" with unmodified guns). Bottom line is: it's all about fit; therefore, you'll have to give 'em a work out to find out. Did you cast them yourself or buy them from a commercial caster?

MJ

I they are from my molds. they are OLD NEI/SSK molds the boolit was ment for strong 44mags but it looks like it could be a good thumper in 444marlin. Also got a 180gr 357boolit with the same basic design

[beladran]

the boolit is .939 long and .433 from crimp groove to the tip. It might be close to your 2.59COL

[Marlin Junky]

Here's this weeks results with 51 grains of Surplus OEM 2520. Not one hole but = 1.5 MOA C-C at 50 yards (the red dot is 3/4"). I should have double checked the BHN but for now I'm gonna guess it's still 14. The five 340+ grain rounds clocked (from first to last, starting with a cold barrel) 1919, 1864, 1879, 1885 and 1900 fps.

I'm not going to get a chance to try these on deer this year but hopefully next October. I'm going to try a few other tweaks to get all five rounds into one hole without going to a harder alloy, but I'm also wondering if a low temp heat treat may just "case harden" while leaving a softer core. Next week I'm going to try an alloy that normally air-cools to 11-11.5 but was oven heat treated for one hour last week at 400F.

MJ

[LeadHound]

Very nice Grouping Reminds me of a load my Uncle Bill came up with for my Marlin 444. A home swaged 195gr soft lead HB with a half jacket. I will have to look up the powder charge he modified it off a 44 mag load he liked. 100 YD 5 shots in a quarter every time with a 6x scope.
Since I can not reproduce them anymore I have put my last few up with the recipe. They work well on deer too.

[Lloyd Smale]

cant be sure just by looking at a picture but my guess is that bullet is to long in the nose to run through a marlin.
tek.. didnt know you was on here! lol
i got a 330gr SSK designed 44 boolit that i would love some feed back on from 444 marlin users.
http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/beladran/Mobile%20Uploads/A0-119.jpg
if you wanna demo some send me a pm

[Marlin Junky]

Very nice Grouping Reminds me of a load my Uncle Bill came up with for my Marlin 444. A home swaged 195gr soft lead HB with a half jacket. I will have to look up the powder charge he modified it off a 44 mag load he liked. 100 YD 5 shots in a quarter every time with a 6x scope.

Not 1MOA yet but thanks just the same. I'm hoping that I can get one big hole at 50 yards from five rounds with an alloy that will expand down to 1400 fps. That'll give my 444 with a 340 a useful hunting range out to about 200 yards.

MJ

[FAsmus]

MJ;

I have a 444 too.

For this one I first tried bullets weighing 460 grains - but they really weren't heavy enough so I bought a custom mold from Paul Jones that goes a full 500 grains.

This bullet works well on out to 1000 yards but figuring out the load had to be done carefully since there is NO data for such a combination.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

...This bullet works well on out to 1000 yards but figuring out the load had to be done carefully since there is NO data for such a combination.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest,

Are you still using 4759 with that boolit? I'm trying to develop a light boolit (315 grains) short range target load with that powder and can't seem to get a real good burn with it. Aren't you using about 19 grains of 4759 with some kind of filler? Does one kill the accuracy potential using both a wad and filler?

MJ

[hunter64]

Tried to drum up some interest in a light bullet for the 444 a couple of years ago and no one wanted one so I designed my own and sent off the drawings to Mountain Molds. It was an absolute success and I have taken 2 deer and a moose with it so far. I wish I had a chrono to see how quick it goes but with the success I have had with the mold, I have kind of put the other 444 molds on hold for now and go to this mold exclusively for all my woods hunting needs.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57249&highlight=screamer

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

You ask:

Are you still using 4759 with that boolit? I'm trying to develop a light boolit (315 grains) short range target load with that powder and can't seem to get a real good burn with it. Aren't you using about 19 grains of 4759 with some kind of filler? Does one kill the accuracy potential using both a wad and filler?

Me: Yes the load is 19 grains 4759 with T/P filler. I have been using an up-side-down GC under the bullet of late which helps to keep any possibility of leading out of the picture. The Hornady check needs to be sized 0.429 in order to work though and I hate fiddling around with them like that ~ I may return to just a 0.060 card wad one of these days. With your lighter bullet things like 20 or 21 grains 4759 could be the answer.

And no, the wad (or check) + filler does not adversely affect accuracy ~ in fact both are necessary for both good Standard Deviation numbers and subsequent
long-range accuracy.

Thanks for the post.

Good evening,
Forrest

MJ[/QUOTE]

[Marlin Junky]

Forrest,

Thank you... I'll let you know how the load shoots next Monday. I didn't load a wad this time though. The load is:


313 grain PB boolit (bare weight), .433" diameter, roughly BHN 15 to 15.5 (I was shooting for BHN 13-14 but I have a bunch of aged boolits laying around).
20 grains of canister 4759.
1 sheet of cheap 1-ply TP rolled into sort of a loose cylinder (opposed to a tight wad) before placement in the case which appears to take up all the airspace.
FED 210 primer.
Repeatedly fire-formed R-P cases, trimmed to 2.215" for mouth and length uniforming, that have been "neck-sized" only.

What do you think of Poly foam as a wad material? It cuts easily with a sharpened case mouth and is available at craft stores pretty darn cheap. I think it makes a difference in group size but I need to perform some real tests before I can positively say the stuff works or not.

MJ

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

I know some several shooters who have used Poly in the bulk form as is used in pillows for filler but not the kind of material that comes (as I understand you) in sheet form. No reason it shouldn't work just fine though ~ I would watch to make sure any airspace was eliminated!

I have some exotic high-power loads I have used in my smokeless singleshots that are probably too much for any lever rifle but might be of interest for the sake of understanding the potential of the cartridge.

These loads turned out to be too fast for the long range game. Sure ~ they shot flat but the additional velocity caused such greatly increased wind-drift that I gave them up.

For details lets use PM.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin Junky;

I know some several shooters who have used Poly in the bulk form as is used in pillows for filler but not the kind of material that comes (as I understand you) in sheet form.

Forrest,

This is similar to stuff I'm talking about, purchased in sheets from craft stores at about a buck for a 20 or so inch sheet. One can get hundreds of wads from a single sheet. The material I've tried is about 1/8" thick. I just happened to try this stuff 'cause I couldn't find a 7/16" arch punch in town and discovered this stuff cuts easily with a sharpened case mouth. After shooting, the wads look like they could be reused; i.e., no melting.

MJ

P.S. Plain base 315's didn't do so well today with TP and 20 grains of 4759. Could be the alloy is too hard now after aging. Perhaps the addition of a wad will improve things. Assuming I still have some decent boolits remaining from this batch, I'll send you a PM later in the week regarding my results using everything the same except for the poly wad. Seven rounds went into 1-3/4" at 50 yards after a 10 round group that measured 2-3/4" and strung both horizontally and vertically. Velocity was approx. 1290 fps.

[Marlin Junky]

Here's another group with the heavy load using a 346 grain boolit and 51 grains of OEM 2520. Vertical stringing and a 7/8" group at 50 yards, :groner:

Perhaps a magnum primer would help???

MJ

[FAsmus]

Marlin Junky;

I got to thinking today about my Marlin M1895 after seeing your post and the picture of your group.

This departs from the strictly 444 material in that my M1895 was re-barreled to 40/65 some time ago. This was a take-off barrel from my Red Willow Ballard cut down somewhat and hung on the lever gun receiver.

The idea was to get away from the slow-twist Marlin 45/70 rifling and barrel-up the Marlin with a 40 so as to go hunting with it.

There are a certain number of stories that go with this change but what I wanted to mention here is that with my old data book in hand I can compare your current groups in 444 with the shooting I did in 40/65 with essentially the same rifle.

The lever guns will not shoot with the single-shots but this one of mine has done well with some several loads. I won the "Lever Gun" class at Quigley a few times with SAECO 65640 loaded over 18.5 grains 4759 + T/P filler & card wad. This load never shot better than about 1 3/4 or so at 100 yards and sometimes there would be an uncalled flyer I always attributed to lever-gun bedding. It didn't really matter all that much since flyers were few and the rifle was mainly very consistent. ~ The main challenge at long range being condition estimation, not dead-nuts accuracy.

This bullet goes about 365 grs in my alloy and the 18-twist and good nose form keep it stable even in the 1:18 twist of the Red Willow barrel.

I did hunting-type success with an Old Ideal 412263 @ 300 grains over 30 grains 4198 + 15 grains inert hominy grits filler, and a 0.050 card. This combination shot hard and accurately but is too wind sensitive for anything over about 200 yards.

Your shooting at 50 yards is already plenty good enough to move on out to 100 or even 200 yards and see what you can see. I seem to remember that Marlin used something like a 1:32 twist for the 444. If so you are most certainly doing very well shooting as heavy a bullet as those in the thread. My 44s are 1:16, which is more like it.

Play around with stability testing at 500 yards if you can. There is lots to learn about what works given a little distance and patience.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the post Forrest... the Marlin's rate of twist is 1:20" and has been that way since '99 for the Outfitter and about '00 for the other 444 config's.

I'm going to start rootin' around for a SS.

Talk to you later...

MJ