Anyone Shooting BP or Pyrodex in their Guide Guns?

[GrayFox]

I got a new Remlin guide gun a couple weeks ago and had a chance to take it to the range Tuesday. I've been a shooter of 5744 in .45-70s for years and used several bits of advice from some of you to load for this new gun. I used a dacron puff to keep the powder in position and used Rem 9 1/2M magnum primers to help liight the powder off. The gun gods didn't seem to be smiling on me, however, and I had lots of unburned powder falling back into the action, leaving little dents in fired brass, and unburned powder grains falling out of the cases as they ejected onto the shooting bench. Oh, and I did have a good firm crimp.

I was also testing out a Williams Guide Line Peep sight with ghost ring aperture mated with their front Firesight. This was less than satisfactory as there was not enough elevation with either the 350 grain (36.0 5477) or 405 grain (34.0 5744) load to raise them above 6" low at 6 o'clock. Range was about 90 yards.

Just before leaving the range I remembered I had stuck a box of Pyrodex loads in the range bag. The load was about 68 grains-by volume-of Pyrodex Select, lit by a 9 1/2M primer, a . 030 card wad, under one of the 405 grain flat nose lubed with Lyman Black Powder Gold. When the smoke cleared after three shots I had about a 1 3/4 group dead center. Considering how much of the target that Firesight covers, that wasn't too bad.

Now I know it was dumb to shoot pyrodex after smokeless with the boolets lubed with LLA, and I have the pile of dirty patches to prove it. However, I have a big stash of thePyrodex and the Lyman lube, and I may just use these loads as my primary loads since I doubt I'll have a shot past 100 yards with it anyway. I think I'll give the new barrel a good polishing with some JB paste and cast up some 330 Gould HPs from some fairly soft alloy and see just what it will do. I'm looking for good things with a clean and smooth barrel to start with. Being able to clean the barrel from the rear makes this an even simpler situation using Balistol and a few patches.

Anybody else have any experience with BP or Pyro in this gun? Oh, and I do have several pounds of Goex 2ff in my stash that I'll try too. Lookin' to bust some hogs this fall in GA. GF

[Guesser]

I'm not using BP or Pyrodex and I'm not shooting a Guide Gun (does that = Gremlin?). I use a Ruger #1 in 45-70. I'm using American Pioneer Powder, a BP substitute. Much cleaner and uniform that Pyrodex. I use it in 43 Spanish also, been thinking of using it in 38-55. Google the name for more information. I'm still developing my technique so I don't have any data to share.

[Baja_Traveler]

We have a couple of guys that shoot only BP in their guide guns during our monthly Lever Gun Silhouette matches here at Pala. They do very well with them, and I wouldn't hesitate to do the same. They are spending the extra buck on Swiss powder though as it burns the cleanest... With all of us - it's either holy black or smokeless - no fake substitutes here :grin::grin::grin::grin:

[Gunlaker]

I have shot BP out of my 1895 Cowboy in .45-70. I used a duplex load with 5gr or Reloder7 and the rest of the case filled with Goex FFg and a 405gr bullet. It shot very clean.

Chris.

[yotatrd4x4]

I used some pyro select in my guide gun pre porting and standard rifling not micro groove. It worked out well I think I settled on 67.0gr by volume and got good accuracy but it was alot of cleaning. I get just as good results with H4198 and don't have to clean as much. I tried American pioneer but it's not consistent at all according to the chrono. I was getting around 200fps deviation so I shot the rest in my knight 50 just for practice but I still don't think any other fake black powder works better than pyrodex. I like real black too but it gets messy when you shoot around 40rds. Pyro is the way to go in my opinion and my rifle but I'm sure others can attest to good results with other BP subs. Goodluck.

[cajun shooter]

I have shot BP since the 70's. At that time I only used it in my 50 cal Hawken and my 36 and 44 revolvers.
I only started loading it in cartridges rounds since shooting SASS for about 4 years now.
BP is all that I shoot in all my guns and that includes hunting and shooting targets and just for the fun of it. If sparks don't come out then I have no fun.
Stay away from Pyrodex and the other subs if you want to be a true BP shooter. The subs are nothing but a smokeless type of powder with a added chemical that produces smoke. They are not true subs as the have a different sound, smoke and produce no sparks or flames from the gun.
Pyrodex is very Hygroscopic and will start rust in the gun on the same day it is fired.
Bp guns may be fired and not cleaned for days with no ill effects. The same is not true for any of the subs.

[yotatrd4x4]

Cajun Shooter,
I agree all the subs even the ones that say they are not corrosive will rust the snot out of a gun with a quickness. I really like black but only use it in my front stuffer and not in any of my cartridge guns anymore. I actually don't use any subs anymore either as I have gotten lazy and don't always clean my guns as soon as I get home so it keeps me from finding rust all over my toys

[GrayFox]

I haven't had any problem using Pyrodex either RS or Select in either my Ruger #1, a Browning 1885 or a .45-70 Long Range Express I had. Obviously the single shots are easier to clean and I used to use the pre-treated patches Hodgden sold, but I found that a water diluted Balistol really did the trick. I'm going to see if I can get one of the pull through G3 cleaning kits that Cheaper Than Dirt has for sale so that I could drop it from the muzzle and then pull wet patches back through from the chamger end. That should allow field cleaning without pushing the residue back into the action. Back at a camp or in the home shop the finger lever and bolt could be pulled for a detailed cleaning.

I got 20 rounds of 50/50 air cooled 330 Gould HPs loaded today and hope to get to the range next week to see how they shoot. It's been a while since I loaded BP (Pyrodex) cartridge loads and it reaquainted me with the fact that loading these rounds is really more of a craft than regular reloading; special cleaning and drying of the brass then tumbling and neck sizing, punching out card wads, filling the case via a drop tube, lubing with soft lube, seating the boolit, and finally wiping excess lube off the loaded round. I know I'd sure hate to be loading for a Gatling gun! GF

[TXGunNut]

No, but I was sure thinking about it a little while ago. :-) Loaded my first Gould 330's but will be pushing them with IMR4198 and RX7. Also loaded a handful of 457193's over 4198. Cool front came through yesterday, gonna be rifle shootin' season soon!:lovebooli

[Cannoneer]

I loaded up about 40 Rounds of .45 / 70 with a 405 gr. FN behind 70 gr. by volume of Pyrodex and shot them out of my Marlin 1895 Cowboy.

They shot left of point of aim at 50 yards and were a foot to the left at 100 yards. Need to adjust the sights.

Bullets were a commercial cast 405 grain FN with generous grease grooves which I filled with my home made BP Lube.

Accuracy stayed on par with any of the smokeless loads I've used in the past.

You shouldn't have any problems with Prodex if you use a BP compatible lube and clean the gun after shooting it like any other BP firearm.

[longbow]

I don't have a guide bun but used to have an 1895 Marlin .45-70 with microgroove rifling and shot a lot of BP through it under a Lyman 457124 385 gr. round nose.

I got good accuracy and no problems with the microgroove rifling.

I used to use Valvoline PB wheelbearing grease smeared into the lube grooves and never had a problem with fouling either. I know petroleum products are frowned on with BP but this one worked well for me. Fouling stayed soft and "muddy".

Of course the gun was well cleaned after shooting as well. I worried about any corrosion at all with microgroove rifling ~ there just isn't much depth there!

I found the BP shot well and was fun to use. Never had a problem except messy brass and lots of cleaning.

Longbow

[GrayFox]

For those of you shooting the 457193 in Marlins are you crimping over the front band? I loaded one dummy round crimped in the crimp groove and it was just long enough to jam the action. Had to pull the bolt to remove it. I like the boolit, but with Pyrodex I'd have to drop the charge a few grains to crimp ahead of the band. Probably not enough to really affect anything so it's probably just picking nits. I like the mold because it drops a boolit about .460 from ww and sizes nicely to .459. I wish my Gould mold did likewise.

I have the Magma 405 mold that they brought out with wide and deep lube grooves for BP shooting and soft lube, but like all their production molds it has a slight bevel base. Seems to shoot OK, though with a card wad over the Pyrodex. It has a wide meplat and is of a length that feeds great, so I guess that will be my primary mold other than the 457122 of 50/50 ww and lead. BTW, what's the opinion of that alloy at about 1,500 fps and HP expansion vs the boolit fragmenting? I'm going to try that alloy with the Magma mold and see how they drop from it.

I'll drop a note once I try it out. GF