Other calibers for No.4 Enfield?

[roverboy]

A friend has a sportered No.4 Enfield that he inherited that has a barrel that's toast. He wants to shoot it and was wondering if anybody knew of a good caliber like a Wildcat necked up to .338 or .358. He's thinking about rebarreling to a necked up caliber on the .303 case. Any help will be appreciated.

[303Guy]

Have a chat with goodsteel. He made his own 303-358. The so called 'toast' barrel is not nesessarily toast and could well be made to shoot with paper patch boolits. But if your friend wants to 'wild cat' then that's fine. I wouldn't mind getting hold of the 'scrap' barrel. [smilie=1:

By the way, there are other possibilities for the rechambering. Like 45-90, 45-70, 444 Marlin, 40-303 wild cat, 25-303, 6mm Musgrave (6mm-303) and the 375-303 (or 38 Hawkin)s.

[Multigunner]

A friend has a sportered No.4 Enfield that he inherited that has a barrel that's toast. He wants to shoot it and was wondering if anybody knew of a good caliber like a Wildcat necked up to .338 or .358. He's thinking about rebarreling to a necked up caliber on the .303 case. Any help will be appreciated.

You might look into the rimmed cartridges developed for the German drilling rifles, 7X57R, 6.5X57R, and similar cartridges are very close to the shape and dimensions of the .303 British, these should feed from the Enfield magazine with little or no modifications.

[bruce drake]

What are the pressure levels for those Rimmed Mauser rounds? I think there might be some pressure issues with these European rounds with the Enfield Action.

Bruce

[Multigunner]

What are the pressure levels for those Rimmed Mauser rounds? I think there might be some pressure issues with these European rounds with the Enfield Action.

Bruce

I'd thought so as well, but while theres no SAAMI testing of these cartridges the European CIP pressure tests show 42,000 CUP for the 6.5X57R Piezoelectric pressures given as 48,000 PSI.
I think they allowed somewhat higher pressure for that cartridge at one time. Around forty years ago I'd looked this cartridge up and the only source I found then gave a PSI pressure of well over 50K.

They may have reduced the acceptable pressure in respect to the age of the old Drilling rifles that are still around.

The rimless versions of these cartridges have higher max allowable pressures.

[dbldblu]

P.O. Ackley's books describe many wildcats both larger and smaller based upon the .303 cartridge.

[scrapcan]

new barrel and follow JeffinNZ lead with a 358 or 375 Pygmy. Well it is a thought anyway.

[Dan Cash]

.375 x 2 1/2 inch flanged. 270 gr. bullet at 2000 fps' what's not too like? Make cases from .303 or .30-40 brass or buy Bertram. RCBS has dies.

[303Guy]

7x57R has a lower pressure standard due to the break action rifles it was designed for. I seem to remember that factory ammo if available will be well within Lee Enfield levels, let alone the stronger No.4.

I looked into the .375 x2½ Inch Flanged but that case is 62.5mm long while the 303 Brit is 56mm. There is however, the 37 Rimmed which looks like a 30-40 Krag necked up to 375. Here's the link; http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd37rimmed.jpg

However, if one is to use the 303 Brit case for a wild cat then perhaps the 38 Hawkins is a better bet. If I were to chamber for that caliber I would design it to seat the boolit to the original shoulder depth so as not to need to 'iron out' the shoulder wall thickness change although doing so would allow for deeper seating of a longer boolit plus the use of wads. The taper of the Brit case can be cut using an off the shelf taper reamer.

[madsenshooter]

What, no mention of the extensive Epps line of wildcats, based on the .303? I'm planning one myself, for a Krag action, 6mm. .303 brass is easier to come by, so I'll make mine simply by holding a 6mm/30-40 Ackely Improved reamer short. It'll just work. A new takeoff Remington 6mm barrel has been found, got a 96 action and a nicely done 96 sporter stock that was once an original Krag carbine stock. Just need money for the gunsmith.

[303Guy]

What, no mention of the extensive Epps line of wildcats, based on the .303? A careless oversight, I'm sure! But somehow an increase in performance didn't seem to be the question. A thought would be something like a 375 on an Epps type case which would still give a shoulder to headspace on. A disadvantage would be having to fireform new cases. An advantage would be longer case life at higher chamber pressures. Personally, I don't want too much case volume because I like the idea of a case filling powder under a reasonably heavy boolit without excessive muzzle velocity and recoil. Others might like the idea of greater case capacity and that's fine. It's only me that has become recoil and muzzle blast shy!:shock: Then again, moderate performance with mild pressure becomes that much easier to achieve with more case capacity. So, why not? In fact, I've heard of (but not seen) 7.62 x 54 Russian chambering in the Lee Enfield. Not sure how plentiful reloadable Rusky brass is. There can't be much performance advantage given the larger case base area which would force a reduction in chamber pressure. Conversely, there is the danger of chambering factory Rusky ammo in such a gun that cannot take the thrust.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I can't see the point in converting to an exotic Euro calibre which is similar in performance to the 303, which is no slouch. I suppose if you have to buy a barrel you could go with anything, but if the performance was similar, why punish yourself with expensive, hard to get brass unless there was a nostalgic reason for your desire for a certain round?

The most popular conversion here in Australia was the 303/25 and it was a useful round, well it was when we couldn't get / afford anything else. The 303/270 was less popular, I think the main reason was that the twist was unsuitable, but I think the real problem was that the 303/25 did most of what needed doing.

The big bore / lead boolit conversions make more sense to me. There are a few 303/35 conversions floating about but I have never heard of a 338 conversion, that might be interesting. A friend who posts on this site has a 444 Marlin on either a Lee or a big Martini.

I find that new barrels being more expensive than budget bolt actions sort of puts a damper on these conversions, but I suppose if you could fit the barrel yourself, it would make sense. The cheapest new barrel here seems to run about $400.

I used to fancy a 375/303, sort of a 38/55 - 375Win, but on a necked up 303 case, but I ended up with a Brand new Remington SPS Dangerous Game in 375H&H for what a quality rebarrelling would have cost (probably less considering I didn't factor in the cost of a reamer).

[Multigunner]

Theres the BSA proprietary cartridges that some of their LE based sporters were chambered for.
The nominal .35 caliber in that line of cartridges is probably just a necked up .303 case. I haven't looked into those cartridges dimensions.

The Kynamco company, successor to the Kynoch brand name, manufactures obsolete cartridges for British big game rifles. They use their own blended powders to reproduce the power curve of Cordite so theres no need to alter sight settings.
They also manufacture match grade .303 ammo as well.

The higher quality No.4 action based commercial sporters are sometimes chambered for more intense modern cartridges, but these actions are hand picked and rigorously tested. Run of the mill wartime production actions sometimes don't cut the mustard.
When they developed the Enforcer police rifle in .308 they found that more than half the parts on hand failed inspection or testing and had to discard these.
AIA had at first intended to use surplus parts but they ran into the same problems, mainly heat treatment of parts being off.

[303Guy]

Something I've considered is devising a bore restoring rifling cutter that will follow the original rifling but open the bore and groove diameter and reaming the chamber neck to accept a larger 8mm boolit.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Something I've considered is devising a bore restoring rifling cutter that will follow the original rifling but open the bore and groove diameter and reaming the chamber neck to accept a larger 8mm boolit.

That would be a handy tool. I suppose you could get one of those hook cutters that they use the cellophane shims to increase the cutting depth. One land at a time, bit slow but a 303 with a nice shiny 8mm bore for not much money would be way cool! That would turn a junker bubba into a useful hunting arm. Maybe even open up a worn turk or similar 8mm into a 338!

[Multigunner]

You might look up methods used by makers of the pennsylvannia rifles in "freshing" the bore of their rifles when owners brought them back after years of hard use and abuse.
They'd increase the bore diameter as little as possible then lapp the bullet mold for the proper size ball. They often made these bullet molds as well as the rifle as a matched set.

When using only the original rifling as a guide, wearing away at the sides if the lands could be a problem.
In lead lapping the tiny amount of material removed isn't that noticable, but hardened steel cutter blades, even the non sharpened sides, might seriously damage the lands and cause the spud to become jammed tight by chips.

[Four Fingers of Death]

You might look up methods used by makers of the pennsylvannia rifles in "freshing" the bore of their rifles when owners brought them back after years of hard use and abuse.
They'd increase the bore diameter as little as possible then lapp the bullet mold for the proper size ball. They often made these bullet molds as well as the rifle as a matched set.

When using only the original rifling as a guide, wearing away at the sides if the lands could be a problem.
In lead lapping the tiny amount of material removed isn't that noticable, but hardened steel cutter blades, even the non sharpened sides, might seriously damage the lands and cause the spud to become jammed tight by chips.

The damage to the sides of the lands might be a concern, I read about this method being used, but the guy who did it drilled out the barrel first to a bigger calibre then used another barrel bolted down in line with it to turn the rod.

You would get very, very shallow cuts using the flakes of cellophane to raise the cutter. It would sure show up any tight spots.

Sounds like a good experiment for one of you guys that gets snowed in every winter.

One of those, 'I wonder if?' super cheapskate projects.

[303Guy]

The lands would be bound to be cut into but since the Lee Enfield bore to groove ration is 1:1, i.e. 50%, loosing some of the rifling width should be OK. I would think that the last bit of bore would be lost though, meaning that it might no be consistant with the rest of the 'refreshed' bore. I won't be tackling that project soon - too many other things to do first.

[leadman]

There are shops in the States that rebore existing barrels. One is High Plains in Turtle Lake, N. Dakota.

I think there is one in Az also.

A 303/35 would be a great cartridge with lots of boolit molds and jacketed bullets available.

[roverboy]

On my friends rifle the bore is really pitted. He said it looked pretty bad. I'll tell him about the reboring companies.

[303Guy]

If I had his rifle I would fire-lap it then see how it shoots. Being me, I would try paper patching or cast with appropriate sized boolits. Being a No4, and if I had some spare cash I would look at a 25-303 or 6mm Musgrave (6mm-303) re-barrel. Playing around with rust damaged or worn bores is not going to be everyones cup of tee. Having a 25-303 on a SMLE action I would definately prefer such a cartridge on a No.4 action. It would be my preference over a 6mm-303. A 22-303 would get my attention. It's a rimmed 220 Swift! (But would have to operated at starting loads as max for the No.4).

[Four Fingers of Death]

If I had his rifle I would fire-lap it then see how it shoots. Being me, I would try paper patching or cast with appropriate sized boolits. Being a No4, and if I had some spare cash I would look at a 25-303 or 6mm Musgrave (6mm-303) re-barrel. Playing around with rust damaged or worn bores is not going to be everyones cup of tee. Having a 25-303 on a SMLE action I would definately prefer such a cartridge on a No.4 action. It would be my preference over a 6mm-303. A 22-303 would get my attention. It's a rimmed 220 Swift! (But would have to operated at starting loads as max for the No.4).

The 303/25 was the only really successful 303 wildcat here. When I was a young un' SMLEs were all that was available pretty much.

I spoke to my friend who is a gunsmith that I use a bit. He has a 303Epps reamer. I will have to convert one of my rifles to this to see how it goes. The trouble is, which one???? I have an iron sighted SMLE sporter, a SMLE sporter with a scope and a mint BSA No4 Factory Sporter. Decisions, decisions. The P14 I have is a very original one, that is out.

Dies are a bit of a mystery, been drawing a blank there on the net.

[scrapcan]

Mick,

I responded to your other thread on dies for the Epps. I don't have any but listed a few places that have then in their listings. CH will likely be the cheapest and you might check out BTSniper's thread on discount to cast boolit members.

Jansa also lists them in their dies series 7 for 7/8 presses. A bit pricey though.

[Multigunner]

The 303/25 was the only really successful 303 wildcat here. When I was a young un' SMLEs were all that was available pretty much.

I spoke to my friend who is a gunsmith that I use a bit. He has a 303Epps reamer. I will have to convert one of my rifles to this to see how it goes. The trouble is, which one???? I have an iron sighted SMLE sporter, a SMLE sporter with a scope and a mint BSA No4 Factory Sporter. Decisions, decisions. The P14 I have is a very original one, that is out.

Dies are a bit of a mystery, been drawing a blank there on the net.

I wouldn't think of rechambering an original BSA No.4 actioned sporting rifle. I have on several occasions run across original barrels for BSA and Parker Hale sporters offered for sale as new old stock.
I didn't think to save links, which would be years out of date by this time any way, but IIRC these were offered on an Australian or New Zealand gun auction site.

As for dies, it was fairly common in the old days for problems to crop up when rechambering for wildcats and then buying resizing dies from another source.
Chambering reamers from one source, especial if used and re ground by a gunsmith didn't always match up well with full length resizing dies from another source.

For the various wildcats based on the .303 case I would think neck sizing only would be the way to go.

If desiring ease of chambering cartridges with reformed cases neck sized only you might try a trick a friend uses with his No.5 Carbine.
After I obtained a #3 bolthead for him when I ordered mine (back then they were still to be found and dirt cheap) He took to using the #3 bolthead for target shooting and load development, then switching out to a #2 bolthead when using the Carbine for hunting.
Of course any case fired with the #2 bolthead must then be full length resized for later use with the #3 bolthead.

I get around the tight fit of neck sized cases by using each fired case as a snapper cap, the impact of the firing pin is enough to drive the case into the chamber far enough to micro size it for ease of chambering.
Helped with developing good trigger control as well.

For other bore diameter cartridges on could try the method once used by Australian gunsmiths, cutting off the barrel stub and boring it out then fitting a turned barrel blank or cut off barrel to the stub.
A commercial coversion of the Carcano rifle to 7.62 NATO used this method as well, and it seems that these hold up okay. I'd not recommend hot loads in such a two piece barrel though.
The British experimented with this sort of two piece barrel during WW2, they found these didn't hold up well enough for combat conditions.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I wouldn't think of rechambering an original BSA No.4 actioned sporting rifle. I have on several occasions run across original barrels for BSA and Parker Hale sporters offered for sale as new old stock.
I didn't think to save links, which would be years out of date by this time any way, but IIRC these were offered on an Australian or New Zealand gun auction site.

As for dies, it was fairly common in the old days for problems to crop up when rechambering for wildcats and then buying resizing dies from another source.
Chambering reamers from one source, especial if used and re ground by a gunsmith didn't always match up well with full length resizing dies from another source.

For the various wildcats based on the .303 case I would think neck sizing only would be the way to go.

If desiring ease of chambering cartridges with reformed cases neck sized only you might try a trick a friend uses with his No.5 Carbine.
After I obtained a #3 bolthead for him when I ordered mine (back then they were still to be found and dirt cheap) He took to using the #3 bolthead for target shooting and load development, then switching out to a #2 bolthead when using the Carbine for hunting.
Of course any case fired with the #2 bolthead must then be full length resized for later use with the #3 bolthead.

I get around the tight fit of neck sized cases by using each fired case as a snapper cap, the impact of the firing pin is enough to drive the case into the chamber far enough to micro size it for ease of chambering.
Helped with developing good trigger control as well.

For other bore diameter cartridges on could try the method once used by Australian gunsmiths, cutting off the barrel stub and boring it out then fitting a turned barrel blank or cut off barrel to the stub.
A commercial coversion of the Carcano rifle to 7.62 NATO used this method as well, and it seems that these hold up okay. I'd not recommend hot loads in such a two piece barrel though.
The British experimented with this sort of two piece barrel during WW2, they found these didn't hold up well enough for combat conditions.

I agree with you, the BSA No4 Sporter is probably best left alone, worth a bit in the (well, it's )original configuration, but just another bubba if interfered with.

I spoke to Jansa Arms about the dies, I know him pretty well, he said that he sells a few sets of Simplex dies in 303 Epps every year and has never had any negative feedback. Simplex also sells neck sizing dies.

I have had a couple of M17s with what we call 'sleeved barrels. The were fitted with used barrels from other rifles and the original barrel stub drilled and threaded for it. One was an Remington 7mm Mag which went ok, but I suppose for combat conditions, the saving would have been minimal and not worth it. OK for us cheapskates trying to use a discarded barrel rather than buying a new one.

I have friends who shoot military rifle, a few of them make a body die using a sawn off Lee FLS die, cheaper than a Redding, lol

[Multigunner]

I have had a couple of M17s with what we call 'sleeved barrels. The were fitted with used barrels from other rifles and the original barrel stub drilled and threaded for it. One was an Remington 7mm Mag which went ok, but I suppose for combat conditions, the saving would have been minimal and not worth it. OK for us cheapskates trying to use a discarded barrel rather than buying a new one.



I wish I had known about barrel sleeving before I traded off a otherwise good condition Krag Carbine many years ago. The Carbine had the worst rotted out bore I've yet seen, many years in a closet with corrosive primer salts trapped under a thick layer of cupronickel fouling really did a job on it.
When I tried to push a bronze brush though it most of the bristles came off. The cupronickel in the grooves had broken loose in strips as the steel rusted away under it. There were pits you could lose a coon hound in.
The action was perfect, and bluing was close to 90%, stock was in great shape as well.
I couldn't find any gunsmiths willing to do a rebarrel for this carbine. They said they couldn't cut that type of thread. Few gunsmiths anywhere near here had much in the way of barrel making equipment.
Years later replica replacement barrels became available. Wish I had just hung that Krag on the wall till then.
I had very little in that Krag and by prices of the day I got over like a big dog in the trade, but now that Krag , if in firing condition , would be worth about 20 times as much as it was then.

The Spanish bought up a lot of WW1 Gew 98 rifles dirt cheap because of corroded bores, then had them relined from 8mm to 7mm.
I think they used these up during their Civil war. Probably any that survived were rebarreled with a proper 7mm barrel at a later date or converted to their model 43 short rifle standards.

I think what killed the two piece Enfield barrel was the effect of heating from long strings of firing. These barrels can get mighty hot, and once heated and cooled the fit of the threaded joint would begin to get loose.
The same barrel might last from now on if fired as a sporter would be, no more than three to five rounds if that between cooling off periods.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't know what the problem must have been, heat in battle conditions is the only thing I can think of, but in reality, the barrel is screwed into the old barrel shank and butts up against the bolt in the normal manner, not much different to threading into the action. Beats me. My 7mm rem mag worked fine, but it was crude! Lotsa dead things as a result of it. I never measured a group, it was sighted in by my mate when I got it and everything I pointed it at died immediately!

[Uncle45Auto]

The idea of a No. 1 or No. 4 Enfield in 45-70 sounds good to me. Other than a new barrel, would it be necessary to modify the bolt head or the magazine?

[Four Fingers of Death]

The rim diameters for the 303 is .540" apparently. The 45/70 is .608" and the 444 is .514" which may be easier and also the reason I have only struck SMLEs, etc converted to 444 rather than 45/70.

Having made that profound (not) finding, there are perlenty of 45/70 conversions out there, especially in the States.

I have never had more than a passing curosity for these conversions, because for the cost of a barrel, not to mention the gunsmithing out here (or should I say down here?) you can pick up a nice used 45/70 or 444. In fact if there were any real difficulties getting it to feed from the magazine, etc, it could run dearer than a new Marlin.

The only 45/70 conversions I have come across are on the large Martini action.

[madsenshooter]

There was also a line of South African developed wildcats based on the .303 case, the Musgraves. Lee even sells a very limited production die set for the 6mm version. I've been looking around the web for a cartridge or chamber drawing, no luck yet. As I wanted to make my wildcat from .303 brass, it may be an option for me, but then, I already have the reamer and dies for the 6mm-30/40AI.

[Four Fingers of Death]

There was also a line of South African developed wildcats based on the .303 case, the Musgraves. Lee even sells a very limited production die set for the 6mm version. I've been looking around the web for a cartridge or chamber drawing, no luck yet. As I wanted to make my wildcat from .303 brass, it may be an option for me, but then, I already have the reamer and dies for the 6mm-30/40AI.

Simplex sell dies for the 303/243 and the 6mm Musgrave, which is what you are referring to I suppose. They also sell 303Epps dies (I couldn't find these, but they are available from Jansa who are the main resellers of their stuff here) I spoke to Ray (son of the original owner) and he said two or three die sets were available for the 303 Epps ( I can't remember the price of the two dies set, but the three die set were $AU205.00) RCBS Dies may be cheaper for you, but the price I got quoted by RCBS online was $143 + shipping, etc and that was in America for a two die set!

I would imagine a three die set would be superior, especially considering the fact that we are talking SMLEs (HaHa! Die sets worth more than the rifle! Rifle $70, rechamber $75-100, dies $205, lol).

[Four Fingers of Death]

Whoops! forgot the link, started a new post in case you were just watching the usercp like me.
They appear to have 303-22, 303-243, 303-25, 6mm Musgrave, 303-270, 303Epps that I can see.

Jansa Arms are a small shop in Sydney, they have their own website. Ray drops into Simplex (which is not far from him) every Friday morning. I have bought many die sets from him, service has been excellent.

http://www.jansa.com.au/simplex3.php

[Multigunner]

The idea of a No. 1 or No. 4 Enfield in 45-70 sounds good to me. Other than a new barrel, would it be necessary to modify the bolt head or the magazine?

The subject came up on another board and IIRC those familar with these conversions posted that a clearance cut of some sort in the lower left receiver wall was necessary for proper feeding from the magazine.
Not sure if both No.1 and No.4 required this clearance cut, or if it was only the No.4.
I'd check with those who have the commercial conversions first before starting on one.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for the link Four Fingers, but their 2 die set is US $144+ shipping here. The Lee set is only $43 and includes a Factory Crimp Die. Reason I'm looking at the Musgrave is to keep from doing any receiver mods, which would be required for the 6mm-30/40AI. I may be able to get away with modifying the sideplate alone though, I guess that would be easier, and a lot less expensive than getting new dies and another chamber reamer.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks for the link Four Fingers, but their 2 die set is US $144+ shipping here. The Lee set is only $43 and includes a Factory Crimp Die. Reason I'm looking at the Musgrave is to keep from doing any receiver mods, which would be required for the 6mm-30/40AI. I may be able to get away with modifying the sideplate alone though, I guess that would be easier, and a lot less expensive than getting new dies and another chamber reamer.

Their two die set is dearer than that here. A lot of Aussie products are way cheaper in the states.

When you refer to the Lee set what round is that for? The 303 Epps I hope. I normally use Lee dies they are as good as any and as you said, have the FCD. I try and buy their delux sets, get the FLS and the neck die.

[303Guy]

Does anyone know the difference between the 6mm Musgrave and the 303-243?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Does anyone know the difference between the 6mm Musgrave and the 303-243?

There must be some difference as Simplex sells die sets for both. Probably more the fact that one was developed in Australia and one in South Africa, without consultation with each other. The 303/243 was too big in the case for the powders of the day with the 243 bullet apparently and wasn't very successful or popular. It was ok in the P14s, but why not just make it a 243 or 6mmRemington?

I picked up a 1906 or 1908 made Sht Lee sporter in 303/25 today. The stock has been bubbered, but it still has the volley sights (front and back and complete) and all of the furniture apart from the nose cap. I have a SMLE sporter with lovely wood and a reasonable barrel. I might swap out the barrels and give it to my mate who restores and rebirths old Milsup rifles.

This thread has got me interested in SMLEs and No4s again.

[303Guy]

I like the 303/25. Mine has produced some impressive accuracy and it's performance is between the 257 Roberts and the 250 Savage. I'd like one on a No.4 action. Then again, a 257 Rimmed would be very tempting! That would take it right up the Roberts (lower end Roberts).

[madsenshooter]

I've got a drawing coming from Lee on the Musgrave, will post when it gets here via snail mail.

[TRX]

I have a 1905 Ross that was originally chambered in .303 British. The barrel was butchered beyond salvage, so I immediately thought of .303 Epps, until I found that .303 blanks are way more expensive than .30 caliber blanks, and Epps dies are more expensive than that. I was looking at .30-40 Krag for a while, until I went nuts and came up withwhat I call a "semi-wildcat."

Basically, it's a rimmed 6.5 Mannlicher rimless. There was a rimmed Mannlicher, but dies are very expensive and a reamer would have to be custom made. So I'm running .303 British brass into a 6.5 rimless sizing die to create either a rimmed 6.5 Mannlicher or a variant 6.5/.303, depending on how you look at it.

I plan to load at standard 6.5 Mannlicher levels. It's not a really powerful cartridge, but the 6.5 bullet carries a lot of velocity downrange, and they tend to be accurate. I'm hoping the slight difference in cartridge taper won't affect feeding from the magazine.

[madsenshooter]

I got the 6mm Musgrave case drawing from Lee. It appears to be simply the .303 necked down to 6mm with no changes to the shoulder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_12364e7d5577726e7.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2212)

[303Guy]

That was my impression too. I've held the parent case against a 6mm Musgrave. My 303-25 is the same.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I got the 6mm Musgrave case drawing from Lee. It appears to be simply the .303 necked down to 6mm with no changes to the shoulder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_12364e7d5577726e7.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2212)

Sooooooooooo.... it would seem that the 6mm Musgrave and the 303/243 should be identical?

[madsenshooter]

Pretty close, though I did note the 6mm Musgrave drawing shows a 20 degree shoulder angle vs the 16 degrees, 58' of the parent case. I'm not sure just yet if I'll go to the expense of another reamer and die set, or just go with the Ackley Improved case as I'd planned. Like I said, lot cheaper to just modify a Krag sideplate and use the reamer and dies I already have.

[dromia]

Just thought I'd chip in here as I've just bought two 6mm Musgrave rifles at an auction. They are on No1 actions and the barrels look very good woodwork needs a tidy up though.

I'm assuming they are original Musgrave conversions as I've never heard of anyone else doing them on these actions.

I've just ordered a set of the Lee dies and hope they will be sufficient to form cases from.

One of the rifles has what looks like Parker Hale sporter woodwork and the other has reworked No1 woodwork with some neat chequering, they both have sporter profile barrels but one has a No1 rear sight fitted.

Both are drilled and tapped for sight rails and one has a rail fitted.

I'm a big fan of Enfields and the 303"round with my Red Deer rifle being a PH sporter in .303". I also like the 6mm round and I use a 6mm Remington PH sporter for fox and Roe so the 6mm Musgrave has always been a desirable and longed for calibre for me and now I have the chance of putting it to the test. :grin:

[Four Fingers of Death]

I use a 6mm Remington PH sporter for fox

You are obviously not skinning your foxes, lol! I hit one amidships with a 303/25 when I was a lad, tail end, front end, no middle!

[dromia]

You are obviously not skinning your foxes, lol! I hit one amidships with a 303/25 when I was a lad, tail end, front end, no middle!

No I'm not! :grin:

Dirty stinking vermin, the less to pick up the better. :twisted:

[Multigunner]

While Black bear here are the smallest of that breed, we have some of the largest foxes. Red Fox in Tennessee can grown as large as a collie, I've seen these on several occasions.
There are smaller fox as well. One of the smaller fox nearly killed me when it ran out from under a bush and struck my ankle as I was walking along a trail along a cliff top. Only an ancient iron rod driven into the cliff more than a century ago prevented me from falling into an open cave mouth below, a total of more than 100 feet to bare rock.

[303Guy]

It depends on what bullet you're using. Referring to the 303-25, the 87gr will blow them up as will a 85gr ballistic tip. The 100gr Sierra on the other hand behaves like the 303 Brit with Privi 180grs. Good penetration with a modest wound channel requiring careful shot placement. I would expect the 6mm to be the same.

[bdharris]

I hope this is the place to ask this as this is my first post, I have Various Lee Enfields in
.303, .308's (ex DCRA Rifles) and I have two that have been rebarreled to .223 , 1 is a HB Bench rest type firearm the other is a "L42 "style sporter that is one of the most amazing handling firearm I have Fielded, both are single shot, thus my question . I understand this is a fairly common rebarrel in Australia is it not??? Does anyone know of a modification to the bottom metal , Lee Mag or ?? whatever to produce a Mag fed version utilising say a 5 rnd Ruger mini 14 or a (Cut down) AR 15 Magazine, just curious..

[enfield]

other than 303 I have butchered[smilie=s: some previously bubba'd Lee's into 22, 22 hornet, 32-20 , 45 colt and 12.7x44. when I got the #4 I turned into 32-20, the previous owner said "I ground the rear sight ears off myself" ( me and Scotty thought that was funny to hear someone boast of such a ruination of a good #4 peep sight) .

[Multigunner]

other than 303 I have butchered[smilie=s: some previously bubba'd Lee's into 22, 22 hornet, 32-20 , 45 colt and 12.7x44. when I got the #4 I turned into 32-20, the previous owner said "I ground the rear sight ears off myself" ( me and Scotty thought that was funny to hear someone boast of such a ruination of a good #4 peep sight) .

There are some well made commercial sporters on modified No.4 actions with rear sight ears ground off and the left sidewall lowered. These of course have barrel mounted open sights.

If I ran across a no.4 with broken away rear sight stanchions I'd like to duplicate this sort of sporter action. They are very trim and neat in appearance.
A member of another board had asked around about having the broken rear sight stanchion reweled and remilled so it happens occasionally.

[Trifocals]

Were it me, I would look into the list of wildcats based on the .303 developed by Elwood Epps, a Canadian gunsmith. I believe he is deceased but the last I read, his son or grandson is carrying on Elwoods work. I would have the original barrel bored and rifled to 8mm or .35 cal. I have heard the company in Turtle Lake, ND does excellent work. By utilizing the existing barrel you will not have to inlet the forearm or hand guard. LOL

[Four Fingers of Death]

There are some well made commercial sporters on modified No.4 actions with rear sight ears ground off and the left sidewall lowered. These of course have barrel mounted open sights.

If I ran across a no.4 with broken away rear sight stanchions I'd like to duplicate this sort of sporter action. They are very trim and neat in appearance.
A member of another board had asked around about having the broken rear sight stanchion reweled and remilled so it happens occasionally.

This a Parker Hale Sporter which was sold in the early 70s. This one is mint. I would have preferred it if they had of left the rear peep intact myself.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Bolt%20Rifles/ParkerHaleNo4Sporter11.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Bolt%20Rifles/ParkerHaleNo4Sporter11.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Bolt%20Rifles/ParkerHaleNo4Sporter9.jpg

This would be a good rifle to 'Epps.' He is a link to more pics if you are interested:

http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Bolt%20Rifles/

[roverboy]

Were it me, I would look into the list of wildcats based on the .303 developed by Elwood Epps, a Canadian gunsmith. I believe he is deceased but the last I read, his son or grandson is carrying on Elwoods work. I would have the original barrel bored and rifled to 8mm or .35 cal. I have heard the company in Turtle Lake, ND does excellent work. By utilizing the existing barrel you will not have to inlet the forearm or hand guard. LOL

Reboring would be what I'd do too. It would still have the original look to it. My friend that has this rifle said something about a .338-.303 caliber.

[Four Fingers of Death]

An 8mm Epps would be nice with jacketed or cast. There are 250Gn boolits for thick cover work which would work a treat! I don't know if there is any such animal as an 8mmEpps, but it would be a cool rifle. A number of 8mm Mauser 303SMLEs thurned up in Sydney recently. They were Turkish battlefield pick ups that had been re-barrelled to 8mm. bit of a healthy cartridge for a SMLE though, maybe they loaded special ammo for them.

Unless the Bbl was shot out and I couldn't find a replacement, I'd stick with a 303Epps

[Bob S]

The idea of a No. 1 or No. 4 Enfield in 45-70 sounds good to me. Other than a new barrel, would it be necessary to modify the bolt head or the magazine?

The original Lee was made in 45-70 and 43 Spanish for export. I lucked into a M1885 Navy Remington Lee. The bolt head is different from the 303 Metford and Enfield versions, but the rest of the action and bolt is quite "familiar" to the user of earler Lee-Enfields. It is a barrel of fun to shoot.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Multigunner]

An 8mm Epps would be nice with jacketed or cast. There are 250Gn boolits for thick cover work which would work a treat! I don't know if there is any such animal as an 8mmEpps, but it would be a cool rifle. A number of 8mm Mauser 303SMLEs thurned up in Sydney recently. They were Turkish battlefield pick ups that had been re-barrelled to 8mm. bit of a healthy cartridge for a SMLE though, maybe they loaded special ammo for them.

Unless the Bbl was shot out and I couldn't find a replacement, I'd stick with a 303Epps

The Turks still had many GEW88 rifles so supplies of ammo suited to these rifles should have been available.
I got the impression the converted SMLEs were intended as Drill or training rifles, and perhaps for emergency combat use if supplies of better rifles ran short.

A member of another board posted that he had found a blown up sporterized Enfield many years ago and on closer examination found it had been rebarreled to 8mm Mauser. Possibly a Turk conversion that someone had sportered and then made the mistake of using the higher powered 7.92X57S with .323 bullets rather than the milder 8X57J with .318-.321 bullets and generally softer jackets.

PS
The bullet diameter of the 8mmJ brought something to mind.
Since the SMLE MkI barrel had a reverse taper lapped section with muzzles slugging from .318 on up to .321, Turk armorers examining these might have been under the impression that the bores were this large all the way through and thought that SMLE was a good candidate for rechambering to 8mmJ.
Not sure whether any of these still bear the original barrel, but if so they'd likely be hazardous to fire with even 8mmJ ammo.
I'd read of some WW1 era Mosin Nagants being converted to 8mm with the original barrel, I would hope these were also intended for the 8mmJ as the rather loose bores of early MN rifles (up to .316) could probably accomodate the .318 bullet with only a small rise in chamber pressures.

Vigorous lead lapping could increase bore diameter by several thousandths, though with that much metal removed the bores would probaby resemble a Metford rifled barrel before they were through.

PPS
Thanks for posting the images of the altered receiver sporter.
I also prefer the peep sight for most purposes, but the open sight has long been prefered for dangerous game and hunting in deep woods where light is low.
A ghost ring peep is fine for low light or fast moving targets. I opened up the peep of my No.4 L sight and threaded it for a disc insert. With the disc removed the altered peep apeture acts as a ghost ring. With disc installed its fine for precise shooting so long as the light is good.

The Australians and Indians, and others who were used to the low light of jungle fighting prefered the open sights of the SMLE, while those Enfield users more geared towards the longer ranges of European battle fields gravitated to the peep sights.

Old soldiers who'd fought in South America and the Phillipines were not very enthusiastic about the choice of the peep sight for the Garand for the same reasons.

[303Guy]

Two things puzzle me - removing the rear peep sight then mounting open sights on the barrel and removing the scope mount base!? Well, I suppose some folks just don't like peep sights, as hard as that is to comprehend.

I did this guys No4 that had had the rear sight mountings removed. I made the rear sight integral with the scope mount base I made. He was happy.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-732F-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-723F_edited-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-718F_edited-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-713F.jpg

I recon I blended the base in with the rifle OK. The rear mount was keyed, screwed and silver soldered. (Talk of overkill!) You can see that the screw holes don't line up properly. I had to fit the bases into existing screw holes which were skew! I milled the bases after mounting. Apparently a new scope required only two clicks to bore sight. It was a fun project - took way more time than the gun was worth but entertainment wise it was worth it. I did it for free for the guy!

[Multigunner]

Excellent work .303 Guy!
I really need to make some good photos of my own scope base design.
I removed the charger guide cross bar and made a rail shaped to fit in the square notches of the charger guide where the crossbar had been.
The top of the rail is level with the top of the charger guide and extends back from it with an extension on the lef rear for a stabilizing screw and spacer.
If I do another I plan to extend the rail all the way to the rear sight pivot pin and secure it there.
I made this one short so I could use one leg of the L sight as a backup folding peep sight for use with the scope dismounted.
The method I used allows for a lower mounting than any other commercial scope base I've seen for the No.4.
y hand making the rail and front base I was able to obtain a perfect fit to the rings, especially the groove for the cross bar of the tightening knobs, so the scope never looses zero after being removed and remounted.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Good work, 303Guy!

[DeanWinchester]

I would like to see a No4 in 405 Winchester. Shouldn't any trouble to fit. Rim diameter is only a couple thousandths more and about hundred thousandths longer overall.

Lion medicine:)

[303Guy]

The 405 is 3mm longer than the 303 Brit - COL that is. Somehow I think the 405 will need to be seated a little deeper to fit the mag. Big deal. It has a 2,200 fps with a 300gr boolit spec. Not short of power by any means. Lee Enfields have been chambered for 45-90's so the rim size is no issue. Can one actually get brass for the 405 Win?

I looked at re-boring a Lee Enfield to 405/303. To that end I opened a 303 Brit case to 405. It's still stuck on the expander! A 375/303 makes a lot of sense as that would blend the neck into the body. Here in NZ it's called the 38 Hawkins. I shelved that idea when I got made redundant.

A 44/303 is do-able by shortening the case to start of shoulder and expanding to the forward part of the case to accept the boolit. On first firing the case should fire-form into a straight case, leaving a small undersized flange area. For 444 performance the boolit would be seated quite far out. In my parts there aren't too many brown bear and moose about so I'm not sure what I would shoot with such a gun.:roll: It would sure put a feral hog down!

[StrawHat]

... Can one actually get brass for the 405 Win?...

405 WCF brass is available here in the states. Hornady markets loaded stuff also.

[303Guy]

I've just found my 405/303 case. It's the 44/303 case that's still stuck on the expander. The 405 or 41 maintains an even and slight taper to the case body. Definitely an easily do-able wildcat for the Lee Enfield. Possibly a 405 WCF reamer could be used to make it by controlling the depth to suite the Brit re-formed case.

[johnly]

I have a P-14 that has a 405 Win barrel in its future.
So many projects so little time.

John

[curator]

I have a Martini Enfield that was bored out to .410/ 2.22" shotgun (.303 British case blown out straight) I have often wondered if I could get someone to rifle the barrel and adapt .303 cases to shoot .429-.432" boolits. The case would be very similar to the .44-55-300 Ballard but would approximate the ballistics of the .444 Marlin when loaded to smokeless pressures of 40,000psi. Anyone know of someone who could do this Stateside?

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a Martini Enfield that was bored out to .410/ 2.22" shotgun (.303 British case blown out straight) I have often wondered if I could get someone to rifle the barrel and adapt .303 cases to shoot .429-.432" boolits. The case would be very similar to the .44-55-300 Ballard but would approximate the ballistics of the .444 Marlin when loaded to smokeless pressures of 40,000psi. Anyone know of someone who could do this Stateside?

I'd be a bit leery about the mettalurgy of a shotgun barrel handling rifle pressures, not to mention that rifling had been cut into it as well. You would probably load accordingly, but someone down the track may blow the lot sky high. Might be ok, but is a bit of an unknown quantity without being tested.

[Me not you]

How about rebarreling to .30-40 Krag?
You would have a long-necked .308 cartridge with slightly more capacity than the .308 Winchester. It should be excellent for cast bullets, and is so similar to the .303 British, no further modifications to the rifle would be needed. The .308 bore allows a huge variety of bullets to play with.
[smilie=b:
(Heresy - old cartridge?)

[Four Fingers of Death]

How about rebarreling to .30-40 Krag?
You would have a long-necked .308 cartridge with slightly more capacity than the .308 Winchester. It should be excellent for cast bullets, and is so similar to the .303 British, no further modifications to the rifle would be needed. The .308 bore allows a huge variety of bullets to play with.
[smilie=b:
(Heresy - old cartridge?)

I have often thought of doing that as there is always the odd 308 target barrel floating around with lots of hunting life left and they are usually free or cheap.

You would sort of end up with a biggish 30/30. The 30/30 would be a good option as well, but the 303/30 would not need any work on extractors, feeding, etc.

I had planned this sort of a conversion and ended up with a series of SMLEs and No4s, all with great barrels and a spare barrel in the safe, so that idea was never acted upon.

[303Guy]

The 30-40 might be a little long for the Lee Enfield. It'll work but boolits would need to be seated a little deeper which is fine if not good. The problem starts if the throat is too long or at least does not match the OCL. I do think of the 30-40 Krag as being about the ideal cast or paper patch boolit cartridge (right alongside the 30-30).

I must admit that I'm hoping someone will chamber a No.4 to 303/41. The barrel is probably thick enough to handle 40,000 CUP after boring out. I'm not sure I would want to fire one loaded to those pressure - I'm recoil sensitive! I'm under the impression the barrel steel used is plenty strong.

[MaxJon]

It has been done here down under. The latest issue of guns Australia has an article from a guy who built one for about $600AU. It shot tiny groups at 50m, he only showed test results at this distance. He rekons its a ripper, but his gunsmith did not recommend building one on a No.3 action.
BB03

[phatman]

Hi Guys,
Well I've seen an Enfield that had the Lee Speed treatment that was chambered for 348 Winchester.

The Indian 308 Enfields would be great fun, 243, 260, 7mm/08, 308, 358, 375 Jaguar.
Slide in a 303 bolt (think it fits) and rebarrel and you can have 450 Marlin that holds 6 down, and since you can load to a longer OAL it will out performe the Marlin rifle.

I'm working on a No.4 that has the first foot of the rifle (muzzle end) ruined. I'll swap in the parts nessessary to use the Indian 308 mag and rebarrel to 450 Marlin. I want to build a Bulldog shorty with an 18 to 20 inch barrel.

Cheers, John

[303Guy]

Here's a caliber I think would be ideal for the No.4

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0847.jpg

It's Goodsteele's 358 Malcolm.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Here's a caliber I think would be ideal for the No.4

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0847.jpg

It's Goodsteele's 358 Malcolm.

I couldn't find much on the net about this one. It looks like an Eppised blown out 303 Brit. Is that the case(no pun intended, lol).

[303Guy]

It's Goodsteel's special project and is one of a kind. Dare I the first of its kind?

He did straighten the case walls a bit and gave it a 45° shoulder for positive head-spacing.

[Four Fingers of Death]

It's Goodsteel's special project and is one of a kind. Dare I the first of its kind?

He did straighten the case walls a bit and gave it a 45° shoulder for positive head-spacing.

Sounds good, I saw a nice 303/270 today, groan,,,,,,,,,,,!

[PAT303]

I'd be happy to cut my No.4's chamber to the 303 improved. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'd be happy to cut my No.4's chamber to the 303 improved. Pat

I have beautiful a beautiful No4 in military trim. I am reluctant to re-chamber that. All of my Sporters are No 1 Mk111s or No 1 Mk111*s. Other than case life, there is not a lot of performance difference (that is not going to stop me though). I have a mint 303 Parker Hale factory Sporter but am reluctant to tamper with that as well.

[303Guy]

Other than case life, I don't have case life issues. Mind you, I only load full power loads in my mint bore L.E. I* and my 'rust textured' two-groove No4. Neck annealing and lightly lubing the case (and of course, never overloading cartridge).

[MaxJon]

Two things puzzle me - removing the rear peep sight then mounting open sights on the barrel and removing the scope mount base!? Well, I suppose some folks just don't like peep sights, as hard as that is to comprehend.

I did this guys No4 that had had the rear sight mountings removed. I made the rear sight integral with the scope mount base I made. He was happy.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-732F-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-723F_edited-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-718F_edited-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-713F.jpg

I recon I blended the base in with the rifle OK. The rear mount was keyed, screwed and silver soldered. (Talk of overkill!) You can see that the screw holes don't line up properly. I had to fit the bases into existing screw holes which were skew! I milled the bases after mounting. Apparently a new scope required only two clicks to bore sight. It was a fun project - took way more time than the gun was worth but entertainment wise it was worth it. I did it for free for the guy!

Nice work mate, I wouldnt mind getting a cheap one to play with like you have done with this one, haha!
BB03

[303Guy]

444 Marlin on no.4 action ... but his gunsmith did not recommend building one on a No.3 action.I wonder why that is. (I assume that was meant to read No1 Mk3 action). The 444 Marlin pressures are within 303 Brit specs. The No1 Mk3 has been chambered in 45-90! They weren't firing it off the shoulder. Too much recoil they said. But of course, pressure is way lower.

[303Guy]

Another cartridge that would work on the No.4 is the 257 Roberts. It's SAAMI spec is within what the No.4 can safely take so if someone fired factory loads in it it would survive. Someone else's hand loads might be a little stiff for the No.4 though. Just to make sure the cartridge will work properly, One could use 8x57 rimmed cases to form the 257 Roberts for the No.4.

[Four Fingers of Death]

A Bob would be cool. Dies easier (or at least cheaper) than the 303/25 and the shoulder would be more brass friendly.

What is the advantage of using the 8mm brass? I'm tired and using my phone in a motel room at the moment. Brain not ticking over quick enough I'm afraid.

[303Guy]

No advantage. Any x57 rimmed case would be fine.

[Four Fingers of Death]

No advantage. Any x57 rimmed case would be fine.

OK, I missed the rimmed part, I was pretty tired at the time. That would be a nice conversion.

[303Guy]

The non-rimmed case would also work, I think. I once turned off the rim of a Brit case and made a groove. It chambered and extracted just fine.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The non-rimmed case would also work, I think. I once turned off the rim of a Brit case and made a groove. It chambered and extracted just fine.

For real reliability, a 7.62 extractor can be fitted and the ejector grub screw I suppose you call it is re-positioned to deal with the shorter case of the 7.62, but converting to a Bob, this might not be necessary. May need turning in a tad though.

[Multigunner]

For real reliability, a 7.62 extractor can be fitted and the ejector grub screw I suppose you call it is re-positioned to deal with the shorter case of the 7.62, but converting to a Bob, this might not be necessary. May need turning in a tad though.

For cases much shorter than the .303 case they often added a spring loaded ejector arm. The arm was a flat spring screwed to the outside of the lefthand wall, with the ejector blade,or stud in some cases, fitting through a slot or hole.
I haven't seen a good image of the boltheads of these conversion, but I suspect they may have cut a groove for the ejector blade to ride in.

I've experimented with rimless cartridges in both No.4 and SMLE. The No.4 fed 7X57 cartridges easily from the unaltered magazine, and ejected empty cases with no problems.
The Lithgow I tested with the 7.62X39 ejected cases smartly, but this was probably due to a rather oversized extractor blade. The extractor on that bolthead may have been a 2A extractor, or simply out of spec.

The British converted a No.5 carbine to 7.62X39 when testing the cartridge while working up medium power cartridge designs. They also converted a No.5 to .280 British. The test rifles had the sort of spring loaded ejector I mentioned, but they didn't alter the magazines, using the test carbines as single shots.

[303Guy]

The No.4 fed 7X57 cartridges easily from the unaltered magazine, and ejected empty cases with no problems.I wanted to suggest the 7x57 as a possible cartridge for the No4 but I'm unsure of the SAAMI spec for that one. I have the idea that factory loadings would be safe in the No4. I'm not sure of the OACL with 174gr boolits fitting the magazine (I haven't checked). The No4 is one of those rifles that will handle both the rimmed and rimless interchangeably.

OK, I checked the OACL and it's the same as the 303 Brit. SAAMI max pressure is 46,000CUP while the SAAMI max for the 303 Brit is 45,000CUP - and that's for the weaker NoI MkIII. So 7x57 would make a suitable chambering for the No4. And I might do it one day - I've always had a hankering for the 7x57 and I have thought of bringing the two together, the Lee Enfield and the 7x57.

[303Guy]

Just realized something - the 7x57 case base internal diameter is larger than the 303 Brit so the bolt face thrust will be proportionally higher so a lower pressure load would be indicated for it in the No4. The rimmed 7x57 rimmed would be OK.

[PAT303]

There is a nice 25/303 improved on a No.4 action floating around that gave very impressive velocities with 80-100grn bullets.The speed quoted was quite a bit higher than my 25/06 ever achieved. Pat

[azrednek]

I find that new barrels being more expensive than budget bolt actions sort of puts a damper on these conversions, but I suppose if you could fit the barrel yourself, it would make sense. ).

Can't argue with that if it is all about money. By the time one is done building a sporter from a mil-surp the bottom line can easily end up costing the price of a brand new, upper end, modern bolt action.

If one could get by with a simple re-barrel or re-bore, be done and satisfied. Might get by cheaply especially if you can get by re-shaping or using the original stock. Once it starts with a stock, recoil pad or butt plate, blueing, trigger, sights or drilling and tapping for scope mounts. It adds up fast.

Doing it yourself saves some bux but then there is the initial investment of the necessary tools. Having the spare time to do it right is also another factor that can't be measured in dollars and cents.

I can say from personal experience. It is hard to beat the satisfaction from turning an old beat up war horse into something to be proud of. I've done two Mausers. My first one I exceeded the cost of a new Stevens rifle with just the 35 Whelen McGowen barrel.

The second one I'm trying to build on the economy plan. It has a Midway close-out 257 Bob A&B barrel installed by a back yard gunsmith. It is unfinished, awaiting glass bedding of the blem stock and metal finishing.

Might try picking up the phone and call Chris at Shaw Barrels. Chris usually answers the phone and can likely give you a list of both wildcat and current production calibers that will work.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The No4 is one of those rifles that will handle both the rimmed and rimless interchangeably.

Thats interesting. My only experience with rimless in No4s are 7.62 target rifles, and then olny fleetingly.

I have a No4 Lithgow Conversion in 7.62. I haven't fired it yet. The previous owner put 200 rounds through it at the range and then had it confiscated because he was knocking around his wife. I got it from the gunshop and paid dearly for it (although the prices of good mil sup stuff has gone through the roof lately. The original owner's brother wanted it and I wouldn't part with it. He offered me a ridiculous price for ir, so I put it aside. He hasn't come good yet, so I must dust it off and give it a run.

[303Guy]

The reason the action can handle both the rimmed and rimless versions of a cartridge is that the rim head-space is forces by the design. All that happens is it is not used by either case except in fire-forming the rimmed version.

They say the No4 can handle the 308 Win but leaves it with no margin of safety. To me that's not a problem as the normal 303 Brit loading is more than adequate. The two cases have the same capacity to the base of neck so 303 Brit load data can be used. My hunting buddy uses a 308 and I would choose my 303 Brit over that when I see the destructive power of the 308 on small game. I even dropped the 150gr 303 bullet in favour of the 180 because I found the 150 to be too destructive. The 180 was perfect at 2450fps. Now if you want to drive a 200gr to 2450 with a 308 then you will win hands down! The No4 has a long enough action to seat a 200gr in the neck without robbing the case of volume. What's not to like?

[MBTcustom]

I cant resist throwing this in here. I have been reading this thread today, and you guys got me thinking about the enfield again! (its a curse, I tell you!) Anyway, Did you know that you can use a takeoff barrel from a savage rifle, and re-thread it for the #4MK1? the #4 MK1 uses a 1"-14TPI thread. this means that the major diameter of the threads is 1". The savage 110 uses a 1.050"-20TPI thread, with a minor diameter of......1"! Therefore, if you had a beat up 110 or model 10 laying around in say, .223, you could pull the barrel off and turn down the threads to 1" (at which point they should be almost gone except for a faint line if that) and cut the 14TPI threads onto the new diameter. You could, theoretically, at this point make a new barrel lock nut like what Savage uses, to set the headspace on the #4, and have a single shot .223 Enfield. Or, if you just love that sweet 10round magazine, you could make a wildcat chamber .223-03 British has a nice ring to it! Of course you could do this with any savage barrel, and steal the pipe to make your wildcats.
Kinda gets you thinking.....

[303Guy]

Interesting. Unfortunately, we don't seem to have too many savage barrels lying around. But then I haven't looked. Mmmm ....

Another possibility is a rimmed 220 Swift! There is no such cartridge, officially but a reformed 303 Brit case makes a 220 Swift with a rim. It's a wildcat so although factory swift ammo could be fired in it it shouldn't brake the gun. Starting loads for the swift would represent max loads for the rimmed swift. It'll work in the magazine just fine. (Both the 303 Brit cartridge and the 6mm Lee were designed by James Paris Lee of Lee Enfield fame so the similarity comes as no surprise. I think he designed both cartridges - possibly based on the earlier 30-40 Krag case?) Anyway, a full length 303-224 is almost a rimmed 220 Swift.

[Multigunner]

Interesting. Unfortunately, we don't seem to have too many savage barrels lying around. But then I haven't looked. Mmmm ....



You probably can't get a barrel shipped from the U S to New Zealand at an economical rate, but some gun parts dealers have sales on new old stock replacement barrels for out of production sporting rifles that might serve the purpose.
GunParts Corp has also had barrels that had factory defects, the barrels demilled at the factory by cutting off the shank, the barrels were then sold dirt cheap for gunsmithing projects as barrel blanks.
Another source of economical barrels is gunsmith take offs from rebarreling projects. Often as not sporting rifles are re barreled to a newer or more popular cartridge even if the original barrel has been only lightly used or not used at all.

If the barrel is chambered for one of the smaller case .22 centerfires there might be enough difference in case length that cutting a new chamber would eliminate any worn or eroded portion of the throat leaving a barrel already broken in but without a worn throat to contend with.
Old time long range match shooters would have a barrel set back and rechambered as soon as throat wear affected accuracy. They found that the gradual mechanical wear of the lands resulted in a microscopic taper to the bore that helped in maintaining a perfect bullet to bore seal. The edges of the lands would go from very minutely rounded to square edged easing bullet engraving and reducing blowby.
Lightly worn and set back barrels were usually a bit more accurate than a new barrel would have been.

[303Guy]

That's an idea. I have one or two 22rf barrels lying around that I was contemplating attaching to a Brit chamber with the join at the shoulder/body junction. I have a nice long Cooey barrel which I think was from a military training rifle that might just be ordinance steel. I also have a Tozz 22lr barrel which is 4140 steel with a 1-in-14 twist. I'm just not sure what I need a high velocity light bullet 22 centre-fire for. Harvesting rabbits and hares maybe? Suppressed of course.

[Multigunner]

That's an idea. I have one or two 22rf barrels lying around that I was contemplating attaching to a Brit chamber with the join at the shoulder/body junction. I have a nice long Cooey barrel which I think was from a military training rifle that might just be ordinance steel. I also have a Tozz 22lr barrel which is 4140 steel with a 1-in-14 twist. I'm just not sure what I need a high velocity light bullet 22 centre-fire for. Harvesting rabbits and hares maybe? Suppressed of course.

I wouldn't trust a .22 RF barrel for centerfire pressure levels. Twist rate probably would not be right in any case.
Most .22 RF barrels are made of softer steel. The older the barrel the more likely that the steel used is soft. Many a nice old .22 RF has suffered a swollen chamber simply from using modern .22 RF cartridges that generate only a little higher pressure than the old .22 RF cartridges did.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have always heard that the metallurgy of rimfire barrels was not up to centrefire specs. MIght be ok for a Hornet using cast, but I would only try this if it wasn't going to cost any money, because the rifling might be heading downrange with the bullet.

[303Guy]

The Tozz barrel would be OK. I'm doing up a Lithgow made Slazenger single shot 22 for the youngster. It has the action machined into the barrel and is stamped 'certified barrel steel'. I know it tough - took three hacksaw blades to shorten the barrel! Trouble is, being a budged rifle, the barrel isn't all that straight. Pointless using one of those to build a 303-22 unless I could straighten it (which I've done from time to time). A 22 hornet conversion would be just dandy but then it becomes a single shot. Not a bad idea for the youngster - mmmm.

You know, I reduced the volume of a 303 Brit case using an epoxy cast into the case then drilled out the centre. That would work for a 22 wildcat. There is the 22/303 which uses a case cut off at the shoulder then necked down. That should work for a cast boolit rifle. I'd call it the 303-22 Pigmy. I'm giving myself ideas here. I do have a spare Lee Enfield action.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The Tozz barrel would be OK. I'm doing up a Lithgow made Slazenger single shot 22 for the youngster. It has the action machined into the barrel and is stamped 'certified barrel steel'. I know it tough - took three hacksaw blades to shorten the barrel! Trouble is, being a budged rifle, the barrel isn't all that straight. Pointless using one of those to build a 303-22 unless I could straighten it (which I've done from time to time). A 22 hornet conversion would be just dandy but then it becomes a single shot. Not a bad idea for the youngster - mmmm.

You know, I reduced the volume of a 303 Brit case using an epoxy cast into the case then drilled out the centre. That would work for a 22 wildcat. There is the 22/303 which uses a case cut off at the shoulder then necked down. That should work for a cast boolit rifle. I'd call it the 303-22 Pigmy. I'm giving myself ideas here. I do have a spare Lee Enfield action.

There was a Kiwi one her earlier this year or last year with a 303 Pygmy.

I have seen straight stack mags constructed inside the original SMLE/No4 mag. For 308 they use the existing spring which is about the right width with a new follower. As is is a single stacker, the follower doesn't have to be real fancy I suppose. I have hear that there is a gunsmith in Qld making these, but I couldn't find him.

Maybe mags are available for the SMLE Hornet conversions. I have one of these mags downstairs, but before you get excited, it is attached to a rifle, lol!

[303Guy]

There was a Kiwi one her earlier this year or last year with a 303 Pygmy.That was JeffinNZ.

[Four Fingers of Death]

That was JeffinNZ.

Thats the villan!

[nanuk]

You might look up methods used by makers of the pennsylvannia rifles in "freshing" the bore of their rifles when owners brought them back after years of hard use and abuse.
They'd increase the bore diameter as little as possible then lapp the bullet mold for the proper size ball. They often made these bullet molds as well as the rifle as a matched set.

When using only the original rifling as a guide, wearing away at the sides if the lands could be a problem.
In lead lapping the tiny amount of material removed isn't that noticable, but hardened steel cutter blades, even the non sharpened sides, might seriously damage the lands and cause the spud to become jammed tight by chips.


think about this: How, when using a single cutter, do they keep from wearing away at the side of the lands now???

I think as long as you stone the leading edge down so only the cutter is doing any work, then there should be no issues

[303Guy]

I'm thinking no problem to refresh the bore. You set up a guide ahead and behind the cutter to keep it centred in the groove. The one behind would be to ensure alignment all the way to the muzzle. But even if the groove gets widened a bit, it wouldn't matter. I'm contemplating doing it to one of my Lee Enfield barrels. I'll make the cutter a little narrower than the groove for initial cuts then widen it to achieve normal width. The idea might change as I progress.

[Multigunner]

think about this: How, when using a single cutter, do they keep from wearing away at the side of the lands now???
The guide takes up any side forces. If the rifling were the only guide the sides of the lands would take the side forces, and as they wore the greater the slop and less equal the wear. Pretty soon the lands would be of varying widths.





I think as long as you stone the leading edge down so only the cutter is doing any work, then there should be no issues
Up to a point that might work. I don't think it would work well enough to increase the groove depth by much before friction and caught chips begain to take their toll. The least wear to the sides of the lands would leave gaps that invite chips to jam tight.


PS
There are two fairly simple methods of making a guide.
The simplest is that used by darra gunmakers.
They take a long flat ribbon of steel and twist it to the twist rate they want. They then cut a slot in a steel plate. Sometimes the plate is an upright leg of an L or U shaped piece of steel or section of I beam. In any case theres a seat on a board attached to the upright.
The ribbon of steel has a free turning handle. An apentice sits on the seat and pushes and pulls the handle in a rowing motion.
If the set up uses a U or I beam section one leg has the slot and the other a hole where the barrel shank is secured.
The twisted ribbon passing through the stationary slot will turn in a repeated rotation. The ribbon may have a cherry or spud attached, or the cutting head can be formed by spliting the end of the ribbon, each end of the split is a spline that itself can have a cutting edge, spring tension of the tempered steel ribbon holding the edge against the inside of the bore till it has cut to the limit of the un compressed splines.

Another method is to use a closely fitted steel rod in a tube. The rod is drilled for a stub handle, the wall of the tube has a slot with the desired twist. The stub handle rides the slot in the tube. As the rod is pushed back and forth a slim bore diameter rod attached to the end of the main rod and bearing the cutting head will cut the grooves according to the twist rate of the slot in the tube wall.

Primitive methods but they can work, and require little other than simple hand tools and common materials.

[Just Duke]

Good info.

[MaxJon]

Just curious if No.1 actions are strong enough? Surely they would have the same operating pressures as the No.4? I may have access to a couple of No1 rifles cheap and tired, but could be good projects. A .357mag would be fun given the amount of moulds available too! But i do like the idea of a .45acp carbine, lots of moulds there too! Thoughts guys??
Thanks,
BB03 down under!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Just curious if No.1 actions are strong enough? Surely they would have the same operating pressures as the No.4? I may have access to a couple of No1 rifles cheap and tired, but could be good projects. A .357mag would be fun given the amount of moulds available too! But i do like the idea of a .45acp carbine, lots of moulds there too! Thoughts guys??
Thanks,
BB03 down under!

I have always read that the No1s and the No4s were chalk and cheese regrading strength. The No1s are much weaker.

I have two Ruger No1s in 338WM. One is a 1B, the other is a Sporter. I am toying with the idea of pulling the 1B barrel and fitting a 270Win barrel. I wouldn't mind making up a 303/338 cast boolit rifle. It might require making up a sleeve from the original barrel.

[303Guy]

The No1 would be plenty strong for 357 or 45 ACP. They've been re-barrelled to 45-90 but 45-70 makes more sense to me. 44 magnum makes sense to me and they'll handle the 444 Marlin too. The pressure limits on both actions are the same although the No4 is stronger and have been chambered in 7.62 NATO but without a safety margin. It's in the steel used. But the No1 is not that much weaker.

[Multigunner]

I have always read that the No1s and the No4s were chalk and cheese regrading strength. The No1s are much weaker.



I think the wide acceptance standards for the nickel steel alloy used for the No.1 action resulted in a wide variation in total strength of the actions, some SMLE had as much Nickel as the M1917 or 1903A1 Nickel Steel alloy rifles, others had as much as 3/4 of a precentage point less Nickel content.

Whatever the case I've never heard of an SMLE rebarreled to 7.62/.308 surviving very many rounds of of even the lightest 7.62 NATO loads at 48,000 CUP.

[bruce drake]

Thats the villan!

THat son of a gun sent me a Pygmy barrel recently along with a box of formed brass and a chamber cast as well.

He's going to be make me convert one of my enfields to shoot that mini-303 before this year is over...:violin:

Bruce

[HABCAN]

.444 Marlin or .410 (shotgun) cases........! No, I haven't done this, YET, but the working pressures of the .303 and .444 cartridges are the same so the action should hold it if approached cautiously, and the rim dia's are OK too. It will need a sleeve/clip a la MI Garand to make the rounds feed properly from the mag. Still looking for a .410 or .427 bbl, LOL!

[JeffinNZ]

THat son of a gun sent me a Pygmy barrel recently along with a box of formed brass and a chamber cast as well.

He's going to be make me convert one of my enfields to shoot that mini-303 before this year is over...:violin:

Bruce

I'm sorry. I have no knowledge of that which you speak...... :bigsmyl2:

[bruce drake]

Just to give you all an idea what Jeff sent me, here is a comparison picture of a 300BLK bullet with a Sierra 110gr Spitzer, a 7.62x39 with a 170gr Lyman 311413 and Jeff's 303 Pygmy with what I assume to be a Kiwi/Aussie 190-200gr boolit.

I will be monkeying around with a spare #4 rifle to get that Pygmy barrel mounted this winter so it will be ready for messing with in the spring of 13.:veryconfu

By that time the highly illegal things I will be sending Jeff in return will have made it through New Zealand Customs...I wonder how they'll appreciate the letter inside the box where I tell the US and NZ customs folks that Jeff needs Spotted Owl and Bald Eagle feathers for his fly-tying and he commissioned me to ship them to him...:evil:

Bruce

[Multigunner]

Just to give you all an idea what Jeff sent me, here is a comparison picture of a 300BLK bullet with a Sierra 110gr Spitzer, a 7.62x39 with a 170gr Lyman 311413 and Jeff's 303 Pygmy with what I assume to be a Kiwi/Aussie 190-200gr boolit.

I will be monkeying around with a spare #4 rifle to get that Pygmy barrel mounted this winter so it will be ready for messing with in the spring of 13.:veryconfu

By that time the highly illegal things I will be sending Jeff in return will have made it through New Zealand Customs...I wonder how they'll appreciate the letter inside the box where I tell the US and NZ customs folks that Jeff needs Spotted Owl and Bald Eagle feathers for his fly-tying and he commissioned me to ship them to him...:evil:

Bruce

Now thats what you call shoulder set back.

Wouldn't be any hemp plants in that Care Package , for his hobby of twisting up his own ropes?
We used to make the rope for all our gear in the Boy Scouts, its a good thing to learn how to do.

[JeffinNZ]

The long neck is near perfect for boolits. Like the Krag or Thutty Thutty neck.

Just a breeding pair of squirrels will suffice thanks Major..... :-0

[bruce drake]

There is a pair of gay buck squirrels that chase each other around the trees here on the Fort. I bet you could convince them to breed for ya there in Upside-Down Land...

I've got a few things planned for you in return. It will be a surprise for when you get the box and its escorted by your local Police...

Bruce

[Mhars]

I have a 50ae barreled Enfield done by Montana rifle. One of my favorites. M1 carbine mag welded into 303 mag. Stacks 6 cartidges. Bolt picks up and feeds great. Load 440 gr lee cast seated to fit carbine mag my favorite thumper.

[303Guy]

I'm sorry. I have no knowledge of that which you speak...... :bigsmyl2:

Hee hee hee!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=48055&d=1348629228

Now that thar Mini-303/303 Pygmy is one fine looking cartridge and I'm afraid I'm just going to have to have one![smilie=1:

There's a very good and clever reason for the actual length of that case. The shoulder is removed and the case is formed from that. That removes the uneven and inconsistent case wall thickness of the shoulder region. Very clever.

Now, what can I offer Jeff for one? I don't have much really but somehow I've got to get me one. It's just too beautiful and ideal a cast boolit calibre to not have. And I have a donor action for one that can no longer be used for full power loads.

[Multigunner]

The pygmy reminds me of an experiment cartridge used to test the effects of various shoulder geometry on the buring of propellents.
I ran across some images of those years ago, I'll see if I can find them.
IIRC some had a bell shaped shoulder, that resembles the shoulder left on fired cases by some of the more radically enlarged .303 chambers.

[JeffinNZ]

303 Guy. I have the reamers if you want to use them. Just have to get them back off another shooter. If you build a Pygmy that'll be 2 in NZ, 2 in AU and 1 in US. That's enough for postal matches!

[rollmyown]

Do you think the Pigmy's popularity will survive when the current "fad" dies away :-)

[Multigunner]

The Pygmy case looks well suited to a single shot target rifle. Something on the order of the .32-40 or 8.15X46 target rounds, only better suited to modern powders and available cast boolit styles.

[303Guy]

Jeff, would you mind posting some target pictures? Throw in some pics of the rifle itself if you would.

An alternative to the Pygmy would be a 30-30-303. No case forming other than simply necking up a little. Might be a little tricky opening the neck of the chamber though but then it wouldn't be a 303 Brit based cartridge.

I have thought of reducing the chamber length with an insert that would set the shoulder back. The idea is not to seat the boolit further back but simply to reduce case capacity and provide a parallel neck for a wad. Case forming would be easy. Making the insert to fit tight in the chamber would be rather tricky. Hence the abandonment of the idea. Although ..... :roll:

Another biggy for the 303 Pygmy is a 303 Pygmy 'Whisper'. Fit a suppressor and we have a 240gr 31 calibre silent boolit! What's not to like?

[MBTcustom]

I would think that you could do this with almost any cartridge. Its like a super short magnum with a long neck. I wonder what would happen if I did one in 358? Hmmmm

[Four Fingers of Death]

My mate is currently building a pump gun of his own design with a 308Win necked down to a long neck, somewhat like a pygmy.

[UBER7MM]

405 WCF, if the action could handle it.

Big medicine.

[JeffinNZ]

Here is a 3 shot, 50m group with the Pygmy using the CBE 315 240 boolit over 24gr W748 for 1500fps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/pygmy24gr74850m-1.jpg
This is a 5 shot, 50m group with the CBE 313 220 over 23gr of W748:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/IMG_0065-1.jpg
Here is the rifle on a wallaby skin:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/Finished.jpg
This line up is three different CBE boolits seated to correct depth for the rifle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/LoadedroundsCBE316175_314220_316240.jpg

[MBTcustom]

I'm speechless, I love the enfield rifle but I always thought of it as ugly. That is a beautiful piece Jeff. I love the little touch of top wood on that rifle and the montecarlo stock. Very nice.
Whats up with the bottom metal? Does it still use the magazine, or is that a hinged floorplate?

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks Tim. It's not bad for a cobbled together set up. The butt stock was on a junker I bought specifically just for the butt. The comb is a little tall for the aperture sight but would be bang on for a scope. The forend and top wood came from different sources. One day I will get the rifle to magazine feed. Presently it is has a blind feed well and is a single shot.

[rollmyown]

Jeff, How many Shots are you getting out of your cases? More than the parent case?
Are pressures higher than the parent case? Nice work BTW.

[JeffinNZ]

Haven't had any case failures to date. The pressures still won't be very high and I suspect even the top loads are mid 30's. I am a serial annealer you see. Also, the walls are THICK due to the forming.

I can't take the credit for the Pygmy. It was created by a local shooter many years ago and he was good enough to let me take over the project.

[UBER7MM]

I'm speechless, I love the enfield rifle but I always thought of it as ugly. That is a beautiful piece Jeff. I love the little touch of top wood on that rifle and the montecarlo stock. Very nice.....

I second GoodSteel's assessment. I like the snobbel forend.

Safe shooting,

[303Guy]

... the Pygmy using the CBE 315 240 boolit over 24gr W748 for 1500fps:That would be good for three pigs in a row! It's right up there with a 44 magnum carbine but with more range and penetration.

A 358 Pygmy sounds like a great idea!

Jeff, that really is a nice rifle!

[JeffinNZ]

AND the wee rifle has a CLLE bolt head!!! Worth it's weight in gold.

[bruce drake]

Now Jeff, are you thinking of parting out that wee rifle? ;) In that case, I claim dibs on the rear sight ;)

LOL!

[JeffinNZ]

When you come to visit I will let you view a collection of those sights that will curl your hair. A local 'gunsmith' has dozens!

I didn't even know what a Charger Loading Lee Enfield (CLLE) bolt head was until it was pointed out to me. I thought it was the bit that held the dust cover on the MLE action.

[303Guy]

Oh my goodness! It's not the correct bolt head for that rifle though. I have an action to suite that bolt head. It's my pig gun - I only glued the scope mount on with the idea that someone might have a need for it some day.

[Four Fingers of Death]

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Rifles/20120323-SMLEMannlicher7.jpg

This one has the same bolt head. I wasn't feeling too well when I bought it and couldn't figure it out. paid for it and went home, I will pick it up soon. It is a 303/25. Scope is damaged as you can see. Didn't pay much for the rifle. By the time I buy dies and a decent mould they will cost me as much as the rifle, lol. Lovely bit of wood, too fancy for a SMLE. Looks like real ivory on the pistol grip cap.

And, no, I won't be changing the magazine, I prefer the full magazine (probably because I carried one as a young teenager in the Aussie Army Cadets (no wonder I have long arms, lol).

[StrawHat]

Gents,

Some of us (or maybe only meself) have no idea what the bolthead is you are mentioning. How about a picture and description?

[bruce drake]

Charger, Long Lee Enfield (C.L.L.E.)

A transitional Lee-Enfield before the SMLE (No1, MkIII) was developed.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?95697-Mint-Charger-Long-Lee-Enfield

A link with pictures to another forum where a guy got a Mint custom-made CLLE rifle from an auction.

Beautiful wood on that rifle. After WWI, Europe's stock of these old-forest trees were depleted and its hard to find wood with that much figure anymore.

Bruce

[303Guy]

That rifle doesn't have the correct bolt. It doesn't matter much. That wood work sure is beautiful! And it does befit a Lee Enfield in my opinion.

I'd straiten that scope if it were mine. Nothing to lose but not that simple.