Enfield .303 conversion to .44 mag or .444 Marlin

[uncle jed]

What would be the feasibility of either caliber? Possibly also .44 special, but leaning toward .444 Marlin if it's not too much pressure. Any ideas? thanks uncle jed

[Buckshot]

What would be the feasibility of either caliber? Possibly also .44 special, but leaning toward .444 Marlin if it's not too much pressure. Any ideas? thanks uncle jed

..............Not a problem. "Rifle" magazine had 2 articles on SMLE conversions. One to .444 Marlin and the other a conversion to 45-90.

...............Buckshot

[uncle jed]

How tough would the recoil be with a 22" heavy barrel, approximately .75" diameter from 8" or so from the receiver? uncle jed

[Frank46]

Uncle Jed, well most 44 mags and the 444 are usually chambered in a light weight lever action. I would surmise that using a heavier bbl would tend to decrease recoil somewhat. More so with the 44mag than the 444. If I remember right on the handloader article the author essentially made up a single stack mag by using a couple pieces of some plastic like nylon or teflon to line both sides of the mag and then used a different follower with the mag. Like I said this is from memory and I have CRS. But either cartridge pressure wise should be good to go in a good enfield action. Frank

[uncle jed]

Thanks Frank, I have a Winchester centennial (1894-1994 on the receiver) and it isn't too bad with 300 gr. flat points so with more weight the Enfield should hopefully not be too bad. Bot it's probably going to have to wait until I get the Stevens redone in .32 acp.

[Artful]

going to be easier to feed with 444 the shorter 44 mag would require more work - unless you just wanted a single shot.

[uncle jed]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I already have a .44mag in Winchester lever and Ruger Super Red Hawk and would like to branch out. Besides I already have the barrel blank I'm not going to use on the Stevens 44, am going to do the .32acp with it.

[rockrat]

You could also do the 445 supermag

[longbow]

I have been thinking along the same lines but no toy money right now.

I have seen Lee Enfields chambered in .45 ACP, .444, .45-70 and .458 X 2". I believe all were in No. 4's. The .45 ACP shouldn't matter but the others are loaded to higher pressures.

I used to have a Siamese Mauser action I had re-barreled from 8 X 57 rimmed to .45-70 and quite liked it but had to sell it many years ago so I have been thinking about something like that again.

I am leaning towards .444 Marlin or .44 mag. If .44 mag, chambered to allow very heavy boolits... kinda like a .44 whisper concept.

Just dreaming for now.

[bubba.50]

there used to be a kit available to convert them to i think it was either .45acp or 445 supermag. anyone know if they're still available and/or who made'em?

[Artful]

Several kits were offered - Rhineland had one - went under - but looks like back in business -
the one I used for 45 ACP on SMLE Mk4 - was Special Interest Arms out of NV
http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=enfield_conversions
their ejector seems to work a little better than the old Rhineland kits.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3556/dsc06030.jpg

[plmitch]

You got a good looking set up there Artful!I've never seen one like this before.

[Artful]

Thanks - I still want to get it suppressed but that too will come in time.

[Aces an Eights]

Maybe you could find an old "De Lisle Carbine" somewhere. They were supposed to be good for silently hitting Jerry out to 1312ft with a 45ACP.

[Artful]

Original registered De Lisle's in america are few and far between - I don't have the money for one - plan on just having the barrel threaded and using Ti-Rant or Osprey 45 cal. can with it.

[hunter64]

Seen a guy using a SMLE Mk4 once years ago over at the trap house on our shooting range. Since there was only two vehicles at the range and mine was one of them, I thought what moron is trap shooting with a .303 . Being one of the clubs range officers I decided I needed to have a chin wag with this idiot and get his membership number. I start to walk over to the shotgun range and I got about 20 yards and he fired at a clay pigeon that had just been thrown only it was about 1/2 the noise of a regular .303. I finally got close and on the ground was a pile of .410 empties. The guy turned around and smiled and said "Bet you thought I was shooting clays with my rifle"? As a mater of fact I did. Anyway he had converted his Mk4 to shoot .410 shotgun. One of the local smiths had done the work and it actually worked really well. I got to try it on a few clays and it was definitely different. You had to run the bolt fairly quickly to positively chamber a round, if you lolly gaged it would jam.

[bydand]

Maybe you could find an old "De Lisle Carbine" somewhere. They were supposed to be good for silently hitting Jerry out to 1312ft with a 45ACP.

If you find a DeLisle carbine somewhere, it was STOLEN! The British government has NEVER released any of them. Add to that, the DeLisle is a SILENCED firearm. The ATF wants to have those REGISTERED with a $200 tax

On another note, I have a No4 converted to 7.62x39. Same diameter bullet. Barrel set back and rechambered. Uses single stack AK Magazines.
Since it was a bubba job when I bought it, no complete rifle was harmed by the conversion.

By the way the guy shooting the .410 No4 could have saved himself some money by buying a Indian SMLE converted to .410 by the arsenal as a police gun. they used un-necked .303 brass. They do appear at gun shows from time to time

[Artful]

If you find a DeLisle carbine somewhere, it was STOLEN! The British government has NEVER released any of them. Add to that, the DeLisle is a SILENCED firearm. The ATF wants to have those REGISTERED with a $200 tax.

There are a few original's out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDQwRAOLfTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMei19G_hqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhb7A_ydO-E
Probably checked out of inventory and after a mission just never checked back in. Handy toy to have in cases. Either written off or charged to issuer.
Some turn up in old brit colonies after WWII, and of course in america there were a few issued to OSS that got lost.
Some grandfathered in 1968 amnesty period. And there have been some recreations some following exact details some just looking for functionality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJm_h3QAAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbCk_Vfsgo

On another note, I have a No4 converted to 7.62x39. Same diameter bullet. Barrel set back and rechambered. Uses single stack AK Magazines.
Since it was a bubba job when I bought it, no complete rifle was harmed by the conversion.

Mauser for mine.
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4374/dsc06117.jpg

By the way the guy shooting the .410 No4 could have saved himself some money by buying a Indian SMLE converted to .410 by the arsenal as a police gun. they used un-necked .303 brass. They do appear at gun shows from time to time

I think I'd rather have the Saiga 410 converted to 45-70 ;-)

[Aces an Eights]

I managed to find an ad for a De Lisle I thought I remembered in a local magazine "NZ Guns and Hunting" Issue#119 Jul/Aug 2010 placed by "Gun City". Reduced from NZ$2999 to $2749 which at the time, the exchange would have been a heck of a lot better.

Suppressors here are legal and popular. Keeps the tree huggers and tourists blissfully unaware.

[drhall762]

The De Lisle Carbine is under new production if you really want one. http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.htm

[Artful]

And Valkyriearms is under new ownership - after the last owner, I'll wait to see what kind of reputation they develop before ordering.

[MaxJon]

If I find a No.4 cheap enough I would build one in 44mag!

[azrednek]

By the way the guy shooting the .410 No4 could have saved himself some money by buying a Indian SMLE converted to .410 by the arsenal as a police gun. they used un-necked .303 brass. They do appear at gun shows from time to time

A few years ago I read an interesting article about the 410 Enfields. The Brits armed the Indian police and guards with the 410 conversions after some armed Indians revolted. The single shot 410's loaded with bird shot were an effective close range weapon only. The British soldiers in case of a revolt were to simply keep their distance but well within range of their 303 rifles. Most of the issued shotshells were loaded with black powder instead of the then used Cordite. The black powder smoke cloud was to give away the position of the shooter. The Brits also cut the spike and blade bayonets to a stub and welded on the sheath. Made the bayonet useless but its appearance attached to the rifle had a frightening effect on the ignorant populace.

The author of the article dispelled any stories or tales of the 410 being issued to Brit soldiers to hunt to small game and birds. Apparently some US importer(s) were claiming the Brit army issued them to keep the soldiers fed if they got beyond supply lines.

[chrispy]

What would be the feasibility of either caliber? Possibly also .44 special, but leaning toward .444 Marlin if it's not too much pressure. Any ideas? thanks uncle jed

I have a No4 MkI converted to 444 marlin. That is the way I purchased it, alas, minus a magazine. So, it has sat at the gunsmiths for a long time awaiting a new mag to be made. On the up side of the long wait, three others have showed up, also requiring a mag, so hopefully I will to have to pay as much.....

Mine was very nicely done, Williams sites, and the original barrel appears to be bored out and re rifled. It is tight, mik'ing at 427-8 thou. Am yet to shoot it, and it looks unfired.

Chrispy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think the .444 is by far the best way to go, since I know it has been done and made to work well, feeding from the magazine. So has .45-70, but possibly is requires more work and I don't know about reliability.

There were and possibly still are De Lisle replicas in the UK, where there was never any need for anything other than permission for "a .45 rifle", as long as the suppressor was integral. I saw a barrel for one of these, and it was about 12in. long, with a rearward extension to put the rear of the magazine (same as a 1911 I believe, possibly modified) where the rear of the magazine would normally be. If I remember rightly that barrel extension was of a diameter which would have required enlargement of the bolt way. They wanted at first to use 9mm. in the original, but it didn't work well, I don't know why. The .45 ACP version was one of the few "silenced" firearms ever to be almost totally silent.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A few years ago I read an interesting article about the 410 Enfields. The Brits armed the Indian police and guards with the 410 conversions after some armed Indians revolted. The single shot 410's loaded with bird shot were an effective close range weapon only. The British soldiers in case of a revolt were to simply keep their distance but well within range of their 303 rifles. Most of the issued shotshells were loaded with black powder instead of the then used Cordite. The black powder smoke cloud was to give away the position of the shooter. The Brits also cut the spike and blade bayonets to a stub and welded on the sheath. Made the bayonet useless but its appearance attached to the rifle had a frightening effect on the ignorant populace.

The author of the article dispelled any stories or tales of the 410 being issued to Brit soldiers to hunt to small game and birds. Apparently some US importer(s) were claiming the Brit army issued them to keep the soldiers fed if they got beyond supply lines.

Ah, the old "forager" story, the mainstay of dealers selling bored-out surplus military firearms of endless sorts.

The .410 Enfield was indeed an Indian Army and police issue, and was intended for the relatively humane suppression of riots by unarmed mobs, or at least unarmed with firearms, who could tear you to bits as easily as anybody, but might yet not want to. Only a little later Belgian 12ga. shotguns of a cheap but sound pattern were widely issued by the British in Kenya, but the point of the Enfield version was that rioters didn't know what was hurting a few of them. British or Indian troops would have standard rifles, but initially only nominated marksmen would be ordered to fire, at ringleaders identified by an officer.

Lee-Enfield rifles bored and chambered for the standard .410 cartridge were on sale in the UK for a while, as they were subject to a much easier form of licencing. But these didn't load from the magazine. As some purpose-made .410 shotguns, such as the Webley, did, there is always the chance of an occasional amateur conversion turning up.

[Driver man]

The club I belong to has a gunsmith who makes De Lisle from blueprints. They are exact in everyway and can only be distinguished from originals by Serial numbers, So Im told. They are so quiet and accurate they are fun to shoot.

[rondog]

Anybody know if Valkyrie still makes DeLisles? Are they any good?

[Artful]

Anybody know if Valkyrie still makes DeLisles? Are they any good?

last review I saw was from 2012
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80434

Special Interest Arms out of NV makes on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3NJojH4r9c

[cal50]

I rolled my own in .45 acp.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?279817-Enfield-303-conversion-to-45-ACP-with-suppressor


http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w560/jkh62/45%20Enfield/NCM_0090_zpsvl3cyws7.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?279817-Enfield-303-conversion-to-45-ACP-with-suppressor)

[rondog]

last review I saw was from 2012
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80434

Special Interest Arms out of NV makes on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3NJojH4r9c

Well, thank you! Disappointing to hear they're kinda marginal quality-wise, to put it gently.

[Good Cheer]

Ah, the old "forager" story, the mainstay of dealers selling bored-out surplus military firearms of endless sorts.

The .410 Enfield was indeed an Indian Army and police issue, and was intended for the relatively humane suppression of riots by unarmed mobs, or at least unarmed with firearms, who could tear you to bits as easily as anybody, but might yet not want to. Only a little later Belgian 12ga. shotguns of a cheap but sound pattern were widely issued by the British in Kenya, but the point of the Enfield version was that rioters didn't know what was hurting a few of them. British or Indian troops would have standard rifles, but initially only nominated marksmen would be ordered to fire, at ringleaders identified by an officer.

Lee-Enfield rifles bored and chambered for the standard .410 cartridge were on sale in the UK for a while, as they were subject to a much easier form of licencing. But these didn't load from the magazine. As some purpose-made .410 shotguns, such as the Webley, did, there is always the chance of an occasional amateur conversion turning up.

The .410's much be much more interesting with rifling.

[Patrick56]

A friend of mine had a Mauser 98 converted to .44mag with a big silencer and a scope. Very silent and effective.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The .410's much be much more interesting with rifling.

Could be, but you would need to know the exact dimensions in that particular gun, before you would know whether you could have a simple rifling job with available brass which would grip the bullet. The .405 Winchester might be more practical, and an easy one, the only cartridge often chambered in original Lee-Enfield sporting rifles, which should feed from the existing magazine, would be the .375 2½in. Flanged Nitro-express. Is there anybody so dead to romance as wouldn't like a rifle called nitro-express?

[flint45]

Would love to have a no.4 in .444 marlin. Souunds like a new project.

[badge176]

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri127partial.pdf

page 30!

[chrispy]

After a long time at the gunsmiths, with several failed attempts at making a usable, reliable mag, the gunsmith completed the job, with a 5+ shot mag that utilises some existing bits of the original No 4 mag. It feeds and functions well, can be top loaded, and just needs a coat of black paint to complete it. The donor mag is a Howa 308 DBM mag. Cost about $100.


Now to load up some goodies and test it.
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/chrispy6151/444%20Marlin%20Howa%20Mag%202_zpseywhinwp.jpg (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/chrispy6151/media/444%20Marlin%20Howa%20Mag%202_zpseywhinwp.jpg.html )http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag11/chrispy6151/444%20Marlin%20Howa%20Mag_zpsjqpylpv2.jpg (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/chrispy6151/media/444%20Marlin%20Howa%20Mag_zpsjqpylpv2.jpg.html)

[Von Gruff]

I did a BSA commercial MK1 in a very slightly shortened 405 Winchester. Used the original mag with a center fed insert for 5 down.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?270931-The-400-Lee-Speed-project-rifle-(and-friend)

[Tackleberry41]

44 mag does make a good gun to suppress. You can get molds almost as heavy as something in 45. 44 spcl load data tends to be a bit low, so something in between, I use tight group in a single shot rifle. Just enough to get a 290gr NOE to 1020 or so. I have to watch it, load them closer to the threshold here at the house then go visit my friend lower down and I get another 30fps. I have a Nikon on top w a 150BDC in it, plug it into their online computer, hard to miss with it. A second range card for full power loads. Women who might not touch a pistol for the recoil, shoot it with no issues being a rifle.

Have never owned a 444 marlin, have a 45-70, never saw the use in a 444. Only reason I have some brass is shot shells in a black hawk. But the 410 enfield is neat idea. They are not very lethal with stuff from the store, but you can make some pretty nasty ones in all brass cases.

[andym79]

I know its an old thread but I have been fancying a 303 conversion to a ?x57R for a while and the magazine has been whats put me off.

It don't look pretty, but what did your gunsmith do? Cut the bottom and front off the original magazine and epoxy the Howa mag in there?

Do it still feed well?