Is this normal?

[Sonnypie]

Or am I being too anal?

I almost wish I didn't get my new electronical scale. It has this tare feature, so I found my lightest boolit (220.0 gr) and set the tare. (220 = zero)
Then sorted my mornings casting by weights. As dropped.
I came up with 4 groups.
220.0 - 220.9 = 44
221.0 - 221.9 = 68
222.0 - 222.9 = 74
and 18 over 223.0 which I've elected to go back to the pot. [smilie=s:
204 Boolits, 186 "keepers". (Maybe)

Does anybody else weigh their castings to see how they range?
These all came from a full pot in a Pro4-20 furnace. All are what I consider shoot-able (anything with the slightest wrinkle, or round butt syndrome, went back into the furnace)
The pot is mostly Lyman #2 from Rotometals, with some of my gatherings blended in.
You can't see any difference in them. (No frosties, prunies, or any gravel added.)
But the wide range of weight kind of stumps me.

Of course, all of them would probably shoot straighter than the wing nut holding my 1911. :veryconfu

I was running the furnace at 8 on the control for more heat, but I don't have a thermometer. Made chiny purdy boolits hot like that.

But is this normal? Or is there something amiss? :confused:

http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8280201.JPG

http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8280202.JPG

http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8280203.JPG

http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8280204.JPG

[largom]

IMO your results are pretty normal. I weigh sort all of my cast boolits and sort into groups. The boolits in each group will weigh within .5 grains of each other. The irony of this is that all of the groups shoot to the same point of impact. However, I like to weigh them as well as my cases.

Larry

[Sonnypie]

Thank You, Larry.
I probably couldn't tell the difference at the range. I tend to consider myself a mediocre pistol shot.
But I try to be careful and accurate with my components and loads.
I'm pretty new to casting my own boolits. I don't want to stray off a cliff. ;)

[edler7]

That's only a 1.5% variation. Some commercial cast probably won't hold up to those specs.

Load some up, mark them so you'll know what you are shooting and see if there is any detectable difference. Seems a shame to remelt such nice looking bullets for that small variance if you can't tell one from the other on a target.

[Sonnypie]

1.5% variation. Sounds reasonable to me.
Wow, you guys are making me feel better with each post!
Thanks!

When I fuss over 1/10th of a grain of powder, I tend to be critical about the boolits as well.

And then I go miss.... :lol:

Oh and, um, uhh, I'm out of primers...

[canyon-ghost]

That's all within a 2 grain range, not bad. I weigh mine too. If you really wanted to go full-on match, you could lose the first set of 220- 220.9 and shoot the larger two groups of medium heavys. That would give you the largest yield with most consistent weight. It does work.

I like to lose the lightest, and the heaviest, and take the big middle for closest weight.

[badbob454]

looks good sonnypie , keep up the good work they should shoot better than i can in a pistol if i was to sort em i would keep all the catagories together and load one weight at a time and box similar weights together if accuracy is desired , but me i just blast and have a good time mostly . ps buy primers by the thousands or 5,ooo at a time and powder by the 8 pound keg you rarely run out ... i got this stuff when it was cheap//

[geargnasher]

Looks good to me, even if it were a rifle boolit design 1.5% isn't too bad. Your pistol won't notice at all.

Keep in mind the heavies are due to the mould blocks not closing completely, and the light ones are due to small casting voids. HP moulds have a bad habit of not filling out around the pin sometimes, especially if the pin gets too cold even for an instant. If you aren't sizing them, the heavy ones will be a bit fatter in one dimension and that might lead to chambering issues, just something to be aware of.

Gear

[Sonnypie]

That's the other side of the equation, Gearnasher.
From here at Cast Boolits, I gather many do not size pistol bullets.
I'm kind of anal in that I try to get everything as close as I can to whatever standard I'm working towards.
So my thought is to run them through a push up (Lee) sizing die. Then they would be the same diameter.

I checked several from the pan and they were 452-454. And the mold was advertised to be .451 (I checked them with a good old fashioned Starrett micrometer (231F) I have. See, your wisdom wasn't wasted on me. :idea: :wink: )
So I do believe you are absolutely correct about mold closure issues affecting the weight variances I'm seeing.

This is my first casting session at the higher temps, and I made a proper pin to replace the ugly one. It is as close to being alike to the first pin as I can make it.
So I have reason to believe the HP is the same.
I was having issues with getting the mold to close to my liking. I chalked that up to it being new and still breaking in.
That... and the fact it is, after all, a cheap mold. And I have highly modified it.

What are opinions on sizing pistol boolits? Probably a good idea so they will chamber properly?
I think I am leaning that way.
I already do that with my 30 cal rifle boolits. W/GC...
What I am casting is a plain base for the 45 ACP, and as mentioned using Lyman #2 alloy.
I haven't slugged the bore. All it has ever been fed was FMJ ball type ammunition (Military) .452 diameter.

Thank you all for your most valuable input and generously sharing your experiance.

[Sonnypie]

So I set up a little impromptu checking station.
At first I clamped (lightly!) my Starrett to the corner of my desk. But decided I wanted even better as a station to proof boolits. So added a caliper for a go-no-go on OAL (it made a nice base). And wanted the micrometer anvil a skosh higher on the boolit so added my 6" machinist rule to get another 1/16" off the deck.
http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8290210.JPG

Here's why: It gets me right where I want to be each time for each boolit.
http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8290207.JPG
http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8290208.JPG
(sorry for the blur, my eyeballs ain't what they use to be.)

And then things just kinda grew....
First a digital scale...
http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8290211.JPG

Then a ruler to sort the tenths of a grain...(It worked really good for me)
http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8290217.JPG

Then I discovered that the cheap scale had the repeat accuracy of my bare hand. :x (Well, not really that bad...) So I got the 505 from the shop as a camparitor scale. The digital doesn't always repeat well I found. You get what you pay for... It's kind of a krap-shoot.
http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8290218.JPG

I zeroed the digital to the 505's pan and just moved it from scale to scale, that worked good.

So what was the point? Oh yeah, almost forgot...
What is going on with the varying weights? Are the boolits dimensionally the same? Or grossly out of round?
Not really, only about .0005 - .001 And not really all over the map either. (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8290214.JPG)
The skinniest was .452, the chunkiest .454. This was between the 220 gr and the 222.9 gr lot range. And 220.0's where chunky, and 222.9's were skinny...


So my conclusion (you thought it would NEVER come...)
No real worries about out of round or gross differences. I went ahead and ordered a Lee .452 sizer die and will ram all the boolits through it.
Why? Because right now I figure I will be loading these for 3 different firearms. So my target is to replicate factory loads dimensionally, but with cast boolits.
They are an original 1911 Colt Government Model, a Glock, and a Taurus. My goal is a happy medium that will shoot well, and cycle right.
Middle of the road universal, for now. I'll be using 231 powder, and hopefully CCI 300 Large pistol primers.

The bottom line: Boolits are like women :shock:. Some of them must be a little bigger boned, so they are a smidgen heavier than the next one in line at the pageant.
But each is unique, and each is beautiful in it's own way.
But there is still no figuring them out. :wink:

I'm outta here before one of the gals starts shootin at me... [smilie=2:

PS: I double checked the reads with my digital caliper too. Both Starrett's agreed.

And THANK YOU ALL for your help. I hope maybe I can help back.

[MikeS]

I think you're over-analyzing the whole boolit casting process. If you're not target shooting I wouldn't worry about the weight variations at all. As long as the boolits are casting nicely (and yours appear to be coming out nicely) I would load them, size them, and shoot them, and not worry about it.

You mention that you'll be shooting from 3 different pistols, but didn't mention what models they are. Saying a gun is a Glock, or a Taurus doesn't really say anything. A Millenium Pro 745 is a totally different gun than a PT1911!

[Sensai]

"Is this normal? Or am I being too anal?"

Sonnypie, first you should know that these two things are not mutally exclusive!!:kidding:

It seems that you have a method to your madness! The only thing that I would add is that I would be more leary of the light boolits than the heavy. To me, the possibility of the light ones having voids is a bigger problem than the heavy ones. I, personally, don't think that you have any problem at all with this weight range. They all look like good boolits to me!:D

[plainsman456]

I run all my boolits thru the sizer both pistol and rifle.
Well there was this trapdoor springfield once.
Seems you are doing good to me.

[Sonnypie]

I think you're over-analyzing the whole boolit casting process. If you're not target shooting I wouldn't worry about the weight variations at all. As long as the boolits are casting nicely (and yours appear to be coming out nicely) I would load them, size them, and shoot them, and not worry about it.

You mention that you'll be shooting from 3 different pistols, but didn't mention what models they are. Saying a gun is a Glock, or a Taurus doesn't really say anything. A Millenium Pro 745 is a totally different gun than a PT1911!

Actually Mike, I'm proofing my work before I hand over reloads to my Step-son for his Taurus (I have no idea what model it is). I do recall it is brutal on the wrist with it's short barrel with my classic 45 loads. Nice CCW though.

Or hand over boxes of reloads to the kids next door (in their 30's) for their Glock (I have no idea what model it is either) But I know it is light, points great, and shoots very nice. The first 10 rounds I shot through it I hit 9 out of 10 steels. May sez to me, "Show-off!" laughing. She was insistent I shoot it. I wasn't there to shoot. But she wanted to "test the teacher". I pulled the one I missed.
Her Dad gave it to them for a home defense gun.
Kevin can shoot it fine, but it's a bit too much for her dainty hands. She was kind of comical with her placement.
They asked me to teach them how to handle it and shoot it. I think it was a 17 or 19. I don't really know Glock's. It was their first time. So basic safety and controlling the newbies at the range.

Mine is the 1911 Government Model. A true original 45 ACP that I know the lineage of, but not the date of purchase. But it was before the 1930's. I know what I have my hand wrapped around with it.

Because of those factors, I have to produce reasonable ammo. Not hot rod, not souped up, just middle of the road nice ammo. Then see what feedback I get.
I'd rather load milder loads that don't "beat up" the shooter.
Chances are I will be there for practice, but maybe not.
What works for me, might not necessarily work for them.

So yes, I am "over thinking" a bit. I can assure you I won't always be this anal about the boolits, but need to know where I am starting from. I have a Pet load I love to shoot from my 30-06. Once found I've always loaded that. I could load it in the dark, but won't.
But I'm casting now to see how that works out. I have my beginning loads ready for when I get out to one of my local ranges. I have a favorite up the canyon that has "Senior Fridays". Me and one of the grandsons (10) gets in for a mere $7. He's my spotter on the high power range. I love the 600 yard gong.

So does that help any to explain the initial extremes? If somebodies gun blows up, I have to know what I put in the ammo I handed them.
And as with most reloader's I do keep records. If the book sez 4.6 grains, I weigh it. At least until I know where I'm at. ;) Then spot check what the measure is throwing which is usually what I set it for with testing and weighing.

I'm going to toss the lights back in for a rerun. There's only 47 of them. And load the two mid-range weights.
I got my primers today so I'm ready to start reloading the brass with the cast boolits.
It's 104.3 outside. So being retired and all, I'm holed up inside.
I do have two tumblers cleaning and polishing range brass, and a load of polished ready to feed the press when I get brave.
Thanks for your post! I'm just careful.

Long winded. And a man of a few thousand words. But careful. LOL :smile:

BTW, love your dog.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=popup&ed=vB_Editor_001

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I have a digital scale also and don't know if that's a good thing or not. Take your scale and weight a tiny piece of lead about the size of a pin head. It will weigh about a grain. It doesn't take much at all. I felt better after I realized that. Now, that tiny piece of lead spread out over your whole boolit? It doesn't make much of a difference. It amazes me that we can pour lead into a mold and have it come out that close....

[Sonnypie]

Alright.
I poked them together. These first 50 have 4gr of 231 in them. Low end of my book for the boolit and the POWder.
I find it interesting that 30-06 bases, and 45 ACP bases take the same shell holder.
So my case holder (for trimming 30-06 cases) will also hold the 45 bases...
So, you say? So I can use one of my lathes to give them a quick spin with Scotch bright. Whew-Eee!

http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny%27s/P8300220.JPG

Ready to march!
(Some of them have boogers from the tumble lube. I can live with that.)

The POWder measure has been reset to 5 grains for the next 50, but alas, Grandpa has to go pick up the grand daughter and deliver her to her golf team practice.
And go pick up 50 pounds of shot. ;) ($35 a bag local)

[Clinebo]

I have that same "cheap" digital scale. Its ok for finding a ballpark weight. I use my Dillon digital for serious stuff as its very repeatable.

[onondaga]

I aggressively attacked the mold closure variation that causes boolit size and weight to wander. Mold maintenance, polishing and frequent looking for daylight between the blocks helps and so does a very light tap on the handle hinge bolt with a wooden baton when closing the handles after the mold looks closed.

Mold lube and application that works the best for you helps too .

Gary

[garym1a2]

If loading for others double check the powder charge, use good primers (win) and double check overall length. When loading for others I would also keep the charge low.

[BruceB]

Anyone "loading for others" is treading on very dangerous legal ground. Most experienced handloaders have three words of advice for those thinking about loading ammunition for friends or (worse) acquaintances: "DON'T DO IT!"

Being a nice guy is fine....but you are potentially mortgaging your entire future well-being (AND YOUR FAMILY'S well-being) just to do a "favor" for someone too uncaring to load his own damned ammunition. WHY? What do you gain, compared to the horrendous legal risks you assume?

[Sonnypie]

Thanks for your concern, Bruce. Point taken.
I always "underload" (less than book maximums). I always start low as well.
When I was loading for my Browning High Power in 9mm I could tell when I going out into an uncomfortable range by what the firearm was telling me. So that was too much, adjust back into a comfortable accurate load for that firearm..
I am using only W 231 for my loads, and 4.0 gr is the bottom W/ 5.6 gr as the maximum by my manual. I really see no reason to try anything over 5 gr.
I load for accuracy. Speed and maximums be darned. I save my equipment for another day. And shoot for comfort.
Likewise, I would never hand anyone something I wouldn't and don't already shoot myself in my own weapons. Nor before I have already experienced (shot) and inspected their firearm myself. Please continue reading....

Gary M1a2,
I always do several checks while reloading. I hand prime with a one of several Lee priming tools. I like that in that I can feel the primer seat much better than any press priming device I've used. I spot weigh the powder charges and know my measures to throw true to setting, but always look in and occasionally pull one randomly and scale it, then put it back in the case and set the boolit.
For my rifle every charge gets weighed and adjusted to right on. Single steps all the way.
But for straight walled pistol cartridges, spot checking has always worked for me and my RCBS 4X4 press.

Onodaga (Gary),
Yep. One way my modified mold "talks back" is my hollow pointing pins will fall out if it isn't fully closed. :( It's enough to piss-off the Pope!
The HP pins are lapped into the mold and polished.
So I have to stop and wiggle a little, or tap to insure the pins will stay put by friction before I turn it over to the spout. And light check as well if there seems to be a hang-up somewhere.
I got my can of Kroil last night, and tried that out today. Sure worked good for me!
I used a Q-tip to swab it on, then blew any off with my air gun to dry it. Made things slickkery. [smilie=w:

Clinebo,
Yep. I only use my Lyman Pro 505 for critical weighing. I don't think the FA is going to win a place at the bench at this time. Say... how about weighing shot for the 12 gauge? It has an OUNCE setting. Pretty hard to screw that up. :lol:

Thanks Guys! Tomorrow the sizing die arrives, and a 6 hole mold. :veryconfu
And I brought home 100 pounds of lead....
I have officially lost my mind. I'm eyeballing annual memberships so I don't have to wait for Senior Frydays.

[BruceB]

I, in turn, appreciate your care in this matter.

Even if your ammunition is the most foolproof, highest-quality stuff imaginable, the REAL problem is that the round causing death, injury or property loss does NOT have to be one of your personal manufacture.

As soon as any of your ammo gets out of your control, you have cast your fate to the winds.

Suppose your pal "Bob" has a few rounds that you gave or sold him. He may even have some ammo that someone else gave him. One day his rifle detonates, and Bob is killed or blinded. His wife KNOWS you gave him some ammunition, and gets her lawyer on YOUR neck. The case goes to court, with Bob's tearful family in front of the judge and jury.....HOW DO YOU PROVE IT WAS SOMEONE ELSE"S LOADS that caused the problem???? Short answer: there's no practical way of proving it.

With the present state of litigation and personal-injury law in this country. it is simply foolish to open any unnecessary avenues of personal risk, and this is a big one.

I sure hope you can see the point.

[Sonnypie]

Of course I can see your point.
Can you see that it would have to be proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I was negligent, and that I did in fact give "Bob" that particular round of ammo?
I guess.. no, I absolutely know, that I worry less than many folks.

I also know that the Mother and Family of one of two home invasion robbers,
who were attempting to kill one of my Son's families and he killed 2 of the three,
when they tried to sue him, the police department, and anybody else involved, the Judge threw them out of court.
They were trying to profit from the known criminals death.
So you see, sometimes there really is... Justice.

I really do understand your point and concern Bruce.
Thank you for pointing it out.

PS: I've only given ammo recently to my Step Son for his 9mm. And he isn't ever going to sue me. His Mama would spank him.
I don't sell any at all. I gift it. If they want to gift back some components... :wink:

[Charlie Two Tracks]

+1 BruceB Well said.