Should I re-barrel a Colt SAA .45?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

What is your opinion, I am considering re-barreling a Colt SAA. Do you think there would be over pressure problems? Would my time and money fail to translate into tighter groups on target? Are factory cylinders heat treated after bored making custom aftermarket re-bored cylinder less strong?
I have a Carter Administration era .45 that hits 1 ¾” to the left at 25 yards. Elevation is right on. I average about 4” groups with a two hand hold at 25 yards. I have a target with a 2” group and many 2 ½” groups with one flier that opens the group up to 4”. Cylinder throats measure .456” and bore mics .4489” with groove diameter .453”. I have a new .38 cylinder and should receive my new .38 barrel next month. I plan on re-boring the cylinder to .452” and having the barrel bored out by Delta Gun Shop Clearwater Reboring in Washington State. The front sight would be raised and the barrel re-marked. My load is 454190 sized .454” with a mix of Linotype 40% and wheelweights 60%. Load is 8.7 gr of Unique for 850 fps. I am not a bench rest shooter.
The thing is I have several Colt SAA’s. I have two 4 ¾” .44 Specials, one a 1981 era, the other is brand new. The old one has typical .434” cylinder throats and a .427” bore with shallow grooves. The new one has .430” cylinder throats and a .429” bore with nice deep grooves. The old one shoots better than the new one. The out of spec revolver outshoots the tight cut new one.
All of the process is just fun for me, I have been on a lifetime search of a really accurate Colt SAA. I have many Colts so giving one up for a year’s tour through various gunshops wouldn’t put me out. Another option would be to just have the windage regulated on this .45 and using the new .38 cylinder to get a new cylinder cut for my already accurate .44 Special.

[Rico1950]

"Cylinder throats measure .456” and bore mics .4489” with groove diameter .453”."
"My load is 454190 sized .454”"
Try a boolit sized .456" and see what happens. You should be sizing to throat diameter.
An option would be the Remington or Winchester lead boolits with the hollow base. They will open up to fill the cylinder throat.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm looking to shoot the genuine frontier 454190 as well as possible. .452460 and .452424 are great bullets, but if I want to deviate from the 454190 I am satisfied with the .429667 and RCBS 44-250-K in my .44 Specials. The .452460 is very accurate but I feel silly tapped off the top of a cavernous .45 Long Colt brass with a little 200 gr SWC.

[Wally]

I have a Ruger Blackhawk...I shoot more accurately with a Lee 200 RF than with any of the heavier bullets incl the 454190. I sure don't like the fact that the 454190 doesn't have a crimping groove. I guess it would be alright if one cast from almost pure lead...but then it is much heavier.

This year I tried an old Lee 235 WC mold...it shot superbly. Have tried the Lyman & RSCBS Keith style bullets--they did not offer the accuracy that I had expected--but the Lee 252 SWC does.

[MtGun44]

You can make that gun shoot, pretty likely. As said try .456 or if that chambers easily, but
doesn't give you the accy you want, try .457. Fitting the boolit to the throats or +.001 should
help a lot.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

No real "objection" to turning wrenches on your fine Colt, but those steps are (for me) the last steps after trying all possible ammo-related variants.

I got VERY lucky with my Ruger BisHawk in 45 Colt. It came with the INFAMOUS .448"-.449" throating and a .452" groove diameter, and was a One Boolit Wonder--#454490, a SWC-GC design. Boolits running 800-900 FPS should not need a GC to shoot well, and the rest of my 45 caliber "staff" ran VERY poorly.

I hand-honed the throats to .453", and size to .454". BOY, does the revo ever shoot now.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I have a .457 H&I die for .45-70, I'll give that a try and get back to you with the results. Thanks for you insight. I can't find a .456" anywhere. My Sizer-Liber is the Lyman 450. There is a .455" which I could order.

Kids are getting ready to go back to school, getting ready for a day casting again!

[MtGun44]

The issue will be whether that chamber will accept a boolit large enough to fit the throats.
Sometimes, you can't get a large enough boolit to chamber to get it to shoot well, but the closer
you are, the more the boolit is guided straight into the bbl and the better chance for accuracy.

Best of luck.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

That pistol can be made to give decent, but not spectacular accuracy. Your Lino/ww mix is too hard to slug up and fill those oversize throats at the pressure of your load. It is also harder than needed. Change your alloy to WW plus about 25% pure lead. Don't size them, but pan lube them to keep them as large as possible.

Do this and you will see an improvement in accuracy. That flyer may or may not go away.

[EDK]

MIHEC has some over-runs of his 45 caliber hollow base full wadcutter group buy in stock NOW. They don't "look western" but I think they would solve your problems...and "put a hurt" on anything you shot with them. I've been shooting a lot of hollow base 44 wadcutters in my herd of VAQUEROS; ditto on the 357s.

I'd get a tight re-chambered cylinder for the COLT, but the .453 barrel is close enough for boolits sized to .454. BUFFALO ARMS or Buckshot could probably provide a .456 die if necessary. It looks like a lot of gunsmithing and yankee dollars to achieve your goals.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Silver Jack Hammer]

454190 unsized drop straight through my Lyman H&I die .457". I've tried 9 lb ww / 1 lb 50/50 plumbers solder and the groups opened up horribly. Plan on ordering .455" Midway has them in stock. This I think is the next dollar wise step. But I do spend money on guns.

[EDK]

454190 unsized drop straight through my Lyman H&I die .457". I've tried 9 lb ww / 1 lb 50/50 plumbers solder and the groups opened up horribly.

Plan on ordering .455" Midway has them in stock. This I think is the next dollar wise step. But I do spend money on guns.

Your alloy is harder than woodpecker lips...hopefully not water dropped. At 850 fps, you ought to be using a brinnell hardness of 10 to 12. Save the 50/50 plumbers solder and use straight wheel weights or mix with relatively pure lead.

I spend money on guns...and boolit moulds...and reloading gear....and books...and other things that make life a lot better! "A good gun, a swiss watch and a woman from anywhere," from the new version of TRUE GRIT.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I got some better accuracy with harder bullets a while ago with this Colt. Heat treated wheel weights gave me 4" groups at 50 yards with 454190. The same bullet mixed1 lb 50/50 bar solder and 9 lb wheel weights gave me 11" groups. Keith sitting position, knees drawn up, back against a brace. Problem was the heat treated bullets hit low, at bottom of the IPCS target I was using and my other loads where hitting point of aim. I don't really want to file off the front sight for that one load. Also I don't have a good oven to heat treat bullets. Most of the shooting I do with the Colt is close and fast, 12" steel plates at 5 yards. I make lots of ammo so I make it cheap and it does not have to be accurate. But then I'd like to also have an accurate load. My .44 Special Colts shoot more accurate with hard bullets, straight Linotype or 40/60 Linotype wheelweights. So for my .45's I've got some 20/1 alloy and I'm gunna try with .455" H&I die. Oh, ya. I spend lots of money on gun books too. Life is good, better on a range day.

[Char-Gar]

Silver Jack Hammer... I wish you lots of luck. But I have to tell you what you are telling me runs contrary to my considerable experience.

[MtGun44]

Use a softer alloy, not harder. You are WAY too hard to work well with this set of
dimensions.

Ronald Reagan said "It's not so much what we don't know that is the problem, but what
we do know that isn't so." Harder is not better as a blanket statement, and it is often
the problem.

Bill

[Silver Jack Hammer]

20:1 alloy is sitting in my shop waiting to be cast, .455" H&I order already placed with Midway USA. Casting Thursday when the kids are back to school and will let post my results.

[MtGun44]

Best of luck. I think you have a very good chance of improved results.

Bill

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Here are the results from the range yesterday. The 20:1 454190 sized .454" gave a 6 1/2" group. The 20:1 454190 sized .455" gave a 3 1/4" group. The sun was to my back. Keith sitting position with a back rest, knees drawn up and pistol resting between my knees. 25 yards. Very solid platform. Each charge of 8.7 gr of Unique was individually weighed. Each boolit was selected out of the pile and examined for defects and weighed.

Straight Linotype 454190 sized .454" gave a 3 1/2" group. Five shots of 40/60 percent Linotype wheelweigh alloy grouped 3"

All loads were 8.7 gr of Unique, Lyman Alox. Same gun. Funny thing is that when I resized the 20:1 boolits I didn not feel any re-sizing going on. It seemed I was just applying lube. The 20:1 dropped from the mold much smaller than the wheelweight alloy which really gets re shaped in the .454" H&I die.

This is pretty much consistent with what I have found with Colt's made in the late 70's early 80's. So I'm still considering changing the barrel to continue the experiment. I still haven't received the barrel yet. I do have a new .38 cylinder and I'm thinking I'll just have it cut to .452" and have the forcing cone re cut on this exhisting barrel. Honesty I don't really expect any great results. This is just a pursuit of passion, the barn has two other .44 Special Colt's SAA in the stables that shoot very well, I'd just like a nice shooting .45 too. This one isn't bad, but it seems like I should be able to shave that last inch of my group size at 25 yards.

[smkummer]

This is what works for me. All of my Colt SAA 3rd generation guns love the 454190 unsized. and I shoot 9 grains of Unique. Out of my 7 1/2 in. and 12 in. Buntline, I can ring a 16 in. metal plate at 100 yards every time if I do my job of sight picture and trigger control. Try not sizing your 454190 bullet. I use water dropped wheel weights and the hardness is aroung 20 BHN. I sold my 452454 Kieth mold to a buddy with a Smith 25-5 8 3/8 revolver that loves that bullet but my Colts (including Anaconda) never shot it well. His Smith 25-5 loves that bullet unsized at about .453.

I would keep what you have and if your cylinder/barrel gap is .008 or less; I would try to slightly bend the front sight as you need very little adjustment. I am lucky that my fixed sighted guns shoot windage wise to the sights. I do have a Colt cowboy 5 1/2 that I did have to slightly bend the front sight to center it on the paper and now its fine.

Good luck

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just placed a work order to have my new .38 cylinder bored out to .452" on this gun. Decided against a new barrel. The sights need to be regulated for windage 2 2/3" to the right at 25 yards but the elevation is dead on. Having a Colt with the elevation dead on is very desirable. I've just always wanted to do this on a Colt .45.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Maybe the tighter cylinder throats give higher pressure which should affect point of impact?