Need crimp help

[lts70]

So I loaded up some dummy rounds for my brothers xd9mm. After reading about boolits being sized down after loading I went and bought a bullet puller. My barel slugged at .356, my boolits drop at .358 and I sized them at .357.

When I pulled the dummy round it messured .356...darn

I immediatly figured it was the decaping/sizing die. But decided to put together another dummy round without using the crimp die. When I pulled the boolit it still mesured at .357 :razz:

I tried backing the crimp die all the way out but no matter what I did it still sized the bullet down to .356. Without using the crimp, the bullet hangs up a bit not allowing it to chamber.

Is there something I can do to better dial in my crimp?

[runfiverun]

you didn't mention die brand.
but if you are using a lee fcd thats your problem.
a regular taper crimp die should allow you to just kiss the case mouth flat.

[lts70]

I am using the lee 4 die carbide set. What brand of crimp die should I get?

[swamp]

Are you using the factory crimp die?

[HeavyMetal]

Return the FCD die to lee with a sample dummy round and a letter explaining what the problem is.

Use a large font and small words and with luck you'll get the die polished out.

It's the carbide ring that is supposed to make sure every round chambers that's causing your problem not the crimp adjustment ,You can make it to heavy but that's not the problem here if you removed all crimp and still have it "squeezing" your boolits down.

Or you can take a hammer and a punch and remove said sizing ring and fix it yourself. After that it should crimp correctly.

By the way if you can see the crimp on a taper crimp die it is way to heavy!! Use a good digital caliper and only just remove the case flare you added to seat the boolit!

[garym1a2]

Make sure the seating die is not crimping also. I find its best for 9mm to seat in one die and crimp in last die. Not usethe FCD die at all.

[cajun shooter]

The standard bullet size for a 9mm has been at .356 ever since I started loading in 1968.Your dies are more than likely set at that standard. If you look in any of the loading manuals or cartridge books you will find .356 listed as the correct size. The j bullets will be at .356 also.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I'd try setting up the seater/crimper die to do both those in one step. The 4th die of the Lee 4 die set is a Factory Crimp Die (FCD). That generally is not helpful when loading cast. You should be able to set up the seater/crimp to make a load that chamber and does not swage your boolit down. You should also be able to do that without shaving lead, since you aren't making a roll crimp. Check your case mouth dia. You want .380 after crimping.

Seating and crimping in one step might not be optimal, but you should be able to get where you want to be until you get a die dedicated to taper crimping, if that's the route you want to take. RCBS makes a taper crimp die for 9mm.

[462]

Its70, Lee dies are manufactured to jacketed bullet dimensions and are not compatable with fat-for-caliber cast boolits.

Remove the sizing ring from the infamous Carbide Factory Crimp Die, adjust the seating/crimp die to seat only, and use the CFCD to just kiss the case mouth enough so that a cartridge feeds and chambers as designed.

There has been much discussion about Lee's CFCD issues...you may want to read them.

[lts70]

I have a guy at work that is selling his Hornady 9mm Dies. He said it comes with the Taper Crimp Die as well. Would these work better than my LEE's for reloading cast boolits? He is wanting $20 for the set. The only reason I did not buy them before was I already had my lee set.

[lts70]

Thanks guys. This thread posted below helped alot.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103168&highlight=Lee%27s+CFCD

Being new to this it seems like I run into a wall every time I think I have things some what figured out. I am hoping I get everything lined up and working soon and can start seeing things through from "WW to Target" instead of from "WW to oh shoot What did I do Wrong Now" if you know what I mean. I cant believe how bad I suck at this some times.


If I modify my die by poping out the carbide sizing ring, will I still beable to reload jaketed bollits with it?

[Wayne Smith]

Yes. I'd pick up the Hornaday dies at that price even thou I don't load or shoot 9mm! They are easily worth two to three times that used. Plus you get to see how another company makes dies.

[mdi]

Yep, use a plain ole taper crimp die. the Lee FCD sawges the outside of the case down to factory specs., which many times swages the bullet too...

[MikeS]

What I would do if I was you would be to buy a Lyman M die in the proper size to expand your case necks, and also expand the neck enough to place a boolit in by hand for the first bit. Then take your Lee expander die, and remove the expander from it, and also remove the crimper from the FCD. Now place the crimper into the expander die body, and you have a perfect crimping die! The Lyman M die is a better expander than the Lee expander, so you'll have less of a bell to remove, and by using the FCD's crimper in the Lee expander body you will have a better crimp die. You could then buy Lee's Bulge buster kit, and attach it to the FCD body, and then if you have any 9mm cases with a bulge, you can size the cases to remove the bulge (if you use it only on empty cases it can't hurt your ammo). So by buying one die (the M die), and the Bulge buster kit you end up with 3 usable dies, and reloads that will be much better in the long run.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I read all of the above comments and have to respectfully disagree with most all of them.

I use Lee dies in my Auto Champ for .40S&W The FCD sizing ring is .422. I actually use this as a push-thru die to presize these cases to remove the Glock Bulge.

The actual sizing die then squeezes the case down to .417.

The expander opens it up to .420 and flares the mouth , and the bullets are .401, and the case walls are .010 so there is a .001 press on the bullet.

The FCD crimp die uses a steel sleeve with a taper on the inside of it to close the flare and produce the taper crimp which should be .418 when done while the case itself where the bullet is located will be about .420 just behind the crimp. So the bullet has been swaged .001 on a side at the mouth of the case only. It has to.

The crimp, when set up correctly, is .418, and the The crimp sleeve doesn't even touch the protruding nose end of the bullet with .020 to spare. The sizing ring portion of the die doesn't even touch the mouth end of the case, with ..004 to spare. so it can't swage the bullet . Only the taper sleeve could possibly do that.

After measuring several factory Winchester, Federal, and Speer 9mm rounds before and after I took them apart, I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you think is wrong?

First the factory FMJ bullets are all .354. The intact cases measure .375 on the body, and .373 at the crimp. The case walls are .009. So all of that adds up..354+.018=.372 close enough to the .373 actual

Measure your FCD carbide sizing ring if it is .376 or larger then this is not your problem. .357+.018=.375 so it couldn't be swaging the case and bullet. Also the chamber on the XD is probably .010 larger than that anyway for no chambering problems.

Is the whole bullet being sized down or just the portion in the case? I don't see how the portion of the bullet outside of the case could be being sized at all. It is at least .020 smaller than the sizing ring in the FCD die.

If I had to guess without seeing it first hand, I could believe that the crimping sleeve in the crimp die has an ID that is smaller than the bullets. However since there is no reason for it to be that small in the first place, (it only needs to be about .370 ID to do it's job) Then there is something else going on here. I'd still have a look at this.

Check the ID on the steel crimping sleeve.

Does the bullet have a step on it after you pull it?

It almost has to, as the sizing ring on the die is .020 bigger than the bullet. So the nose end of the bullet's bearing surface should still be what ever size you made it before you loaded it. I can see how the part of the bullet inside the case could be sized down a little because when you taper crimp the case, the case actually bites into the bullet a little. It kind of has too, as there is no other place for the lead to go? Even the factory FMJ bullets have a step. See pic, the ring groove is where the case was crimped into the bullet.

On a roll crimped case the crimp is either going into a crimping groove ,or in the case of a jacketed bullet, into a cannelure, so there is a place for the case to go. On a pistol bullet with no crimp groove the bullets material must be displaced . Period

Also after saying all of this you might find that these rounds have very satisfactory accuracy as they are. And you really don't have a problem at all. :holysheep

Randy

[lts70]

Holy crapola I am confused. Maybe golf should be my hobby.

[462]

Doing nothing is a more productive use of time than playing golf.

Don't become discouraged. You've been given much good information. If you did some research, as I suggested, you have even more than what's been offered in your thread, as well as before you posted. Now it's up to you to sort through it and determine your best course of action.

All we can do is offer advise based on what has worked for us, at one time or an other. When it comes to castinig and reloading, not all problems have one-size-fits-all answers. Try one of the suggestions, if it works, great. If not, move on to the next.

View a problem not as a problem, but as an experiment and a learning experience. In the end, you will have become that much more knowledgeable and will be in a position of offer advise to others.

Keep at it, keep us informed.

[geargnasher]

Holy crapola I am confused. Maybe golf should be my hobby.

Don't be confused. My experiences have been totally different from WR Buchanan's, and he didn't mention that "factory ammunition" for the .40 is universally loaded with jacketed bullets, which are smaller by far than what will typically work best for cast boolits, so that might be confusing you.

Here's my dos centavos:

First, understand that your cast boolits need to be a bit larger than groove diameter (interference press-fit in the barrel) so that powder gas won't leak around it. If gas leaks, it will cut trenches along the sides of the boolit and deposit the resulting lead dust ahead of the boolit in the barrel which will then be ironed-on by the passing boolit, causing the "leading" of the bore that we all try to hard to avoid.

Second, the 9mm is a MAGNUM pressure cartridge that has hard, tough brass that will mash your soft boolits undersized if not expanded properly. Most 9mm barrels need a lead boolit MUCH bigger than the jacketed bullets they were designed to shoot, and the dies are made to work with. Standard dies are made for small jacketed bullets, if you use them with comparatively soft lead alloy, the case inside diameter will be too small, causing the swaging you hear so much about.

Third, the Lee FCD carbide ring is designed as a final QC pass for cartridges loaded with jacketed bullets, NOT cast. Like a "small base" sizer for rifle brass, the FCD will swage case and boolit down together if the loaded case is bigger than the minimum-spec'd carbide ring. Most factory stuff uses what, .355" bullets? How big does the 9mm like for cast? .357"? .358"? It varies, but no matter what it begins as, it will end up .356" after being run through the FCD sizer ring. Don't confuse this with crimp, totally separate issue. All the crimp you need is enough to make the case mouth straight, NOT to dig into the boolit. Save your crimping for revolvers where the ammo experiences "pull" forces rather than autos where the ammo in the mag experiences compression forces under recoil. .001" case tension is more than enough to hold the boolit in an auto.

Finally, you need to make sure that your expander spud is actually expanding the brass to .001-2" of boolit diameter, or you can have case swage. Often this requires a custom expander spud that is longer and larger than the one the die set came with, because the set was designed for smaller, jacketed bullets. Once you're certain your cases aren't swaging the boolits, buy the Hornady set from your friend and use the taper crimp die on your ammo. Mic the case mouths and adjust your taper crimp die to just barely iron out the flare on the mouth, making the case a cylinder. If they won't chamber or feed reliably, add just a touch more crimp (1/6 turn) and try again.

These are special problems related to the FCD and cast boolits, and also to the particularly hard and tough brass of the .40 and 9mm. Most .45 ACP die sets, for example, don't have these issues because the brass is soft enough to stretch when you seat a cast boolit. The FCD will still swage the boolits to .451 or less, though, and that's not good. Hope this helps.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the fcd dies are sizing dies that were messed up.
they just figured out something to do with them.

[MtGun44]

What gear said.

First, no two pistol FCDs work exactly the same. If yours is giving you .356 boolits when
the crimp is backed off with YOUR BRASS and YOUR DIE, then YOU have a problem, no
matter what someone else has found in a different caliber!

Get a plain taper crimp die and you will probably be past this.

IMO, the FCD for pistols is the devil's work. Rifle FCD is a wonderful tool, TOTALLY different
beast.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Yes, the RIFLE FCD is a godsend, especially for leverguns and cast boolits. It makes consistent crimps with varying case lengths (within reason), and is easier on the mouths than a roll crimp, improving brass life. I also feel that it's easier for a boolit to break a Lee factory crimp than a traditional roll crimp, since there is no sharp case mouth edge to scrape the boolit as it exits the case, but still just as strong at preventing deep-seating from recoil in the magazine or when seated to engrave.

The pistol dies vary in design, but the .40 and 9mm that I have both have a floating, tapered crimp collar that rides ABOVE the carbide post-sizer ring. If case and boolit enter the die, they both get swaged by the ring, regardless of how much or little (or no) crimp is set to apply by the sleeve. It's actually a pretty good crimp die for cast boolits if you knock out the carbide ring and just use the crimp part, better than the crude "roll" crimp lip in the seater die.

Gear

[MikeS]

I agree with Gear that the Lee FCD is a good crimping die without the carbide ring. I just don't like removing it, as that's kind of permanent. My solution of placing the crimping sleeve into the expander die (instead of the expander) does the same thing, and is reversible if you should want to use the FCD as it was originally at some time in the future. If you can get a set of Hornady dies for $20.00 I would! Then you could replace the expander with the crimper, and have a nice crimper that's more easily adjusted than a 'standard' taper crimp die. If you have more than one set of dies for a cartridge, there's nothing that says you can't mix & match dies between sets. Or you could just buy a Lyman M die to do a better job of expanding than the Lee expander, and still do the parts swap I mentioned.

I like doing the swap, that way the original FCD body can still be used with the Bulge Buster kit in case you pickup some brass that's bulged. Using it on just unloaded cases it works really well for it's intended purpose.

If you do pickup that other set of dies, you can always keep one boolit seating die setup for your most favorite boolit (I would use the Hornady for this), and the other one for all other boolits. In 45ACP I have 2 sets of dies (a Lee set, and a Lyman set), and I always use the Lyman expander (it's an M die) and I keep the Lyman seater set for seating H&G #68 style boolits, and the Lee for all others. The Lyman locks with a locknut, so it's good for a single boolit, where the Lee is not locked, so it's easier to reset it for whatever I'm loading other than #68's.

[geargnasher]

:goodpost:

Thanks, Mike, I remember you posted something about that a while back, but I forgot about until now. PTE dies are cheap, like ten bucks, and can be purchased separately, so that would be an excellent alternative to punching out the carbide ring if you wanted to preserve the ring for jacketed bullets.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

So I loaded up some dummy rounds for my brothers xd9mm. After reading about boolits being sized down after loading I went and bought a bullet puller. My barel slugged at .356, my boolits drop at .358 and I sized them at .357.

When I pulled the dummy round it messured .356...darn

I immediatly figured it was the decaping/sizing die. But decided to put together another dummy round without using the crimp die. When I pulled the boolit it still mesured at .357 :razz:

I tried backing the crimp die all the way out but no matter what I did it still sized the bullet down to .356. Without using the crimp, the bullet hangs up a bit not allowing it to chamber.

Is there something I can do to better dial in my crimp?

When you use a taper crimp die, it only takes effect on the case mouth and a very small section of the case body. It will not size down the bullets. Now when you use a factory crimp die, often it will.

When you pull a bullet, the entire body will pass through the crimped portion of the case mouth and come out smaller than it is in the case.

If you are using a taper crimp die, you are making something out of nothing. It is the pulling that is reducing the size of your bullet, not the crimp.

[lts70]

Thanks for the advice Mike. It doesnt look like Lee makes the bulge buster kit for 9mm becouse it is tapered. But I am still going to get the M-die for my 9mm and just switch the FCD guts in to the expander die body. That way I can just switch things back if I plan on reloading any jacketed bullets.

I missed out on the Hornady dies, I wish I just would have got them when he first asked me. I have twins on the way, which will bump me from 2 future boolit makers to 4 and so I have been having to watch what I am spending even if it is a good deal. Just wish I would have known better at the time that I would need a different taper crimp die and I would have picked them up.

[MikeS]

Actually the Bulge Buster kit isn't caliber specific, so it's not listed by caliber. I'm not familiar with the 9mm, I don't own any guns that shoot it, and have never reloaded for it, but if the case is truly tapered, then the FCD wouldn't be able to resize the boolit, as it's designed to size the base of the case. I believe the BB kit was originally designed with the 40 in mind, but I've seen 45's that were bulged too (I don't know what gun they were shot out of, they were on the range floor, where I left them)

[lts70]

Looks like it fits most calibers but not 9mm. Will the M die still work on the 9mm Tapered case? Wouldnt it cause a bulge?

Lee Bulge Buster Base Sizing Kit Technical Information

Fits: Lee Factory Crimp Dies (380 ACP, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 41 AE, 45 GAP, 45 ACP, 45 Win Mag
Function: Removes the lower base bulge that can be found on some cases fired through today’s popular auto-loading pistols
Material: Steel
Notes: Will not work with 9mm Luger

Kit includes: Push Through Punch, Extension Sleeve and Catch Container
Instructions

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=882261

[popper]

9m is a tapered case XDm 9mm has a tapered chamber. I would get the Hornady set! You didn't say what bullet you are using. Expand (bell) a fired case, inset in chamber and see if it seats fully. bell a little more until it won't chamber fully. Mike it. This is your max crimp size. Load a dummy (check crimp diameter) with your bullet of choice at max COL. Keep reducing COL until it fits. Drop your COL a few thousands. Ready to go. Tamer crimp only enough to get rid of bell and set the diameter correct. MBC cast are good, but NOT parabellum shaped.

[lts70]

..................

[lts70]

Just ordered two M dies, one for my 9mm and one for my 45acp lee die sets. I also got the bulge buster for my 45acp, I am sure it will come in handy for other calibers in the future.

I have a buddy that swears by Flitz polish as a finish bore cleaner/polisher before shooting lead. It was on sale so I went for it.

I used a Promo code and got $10 off but it ends today - code is 1181171

[milprileb]

This thing of the crimp die (taper crimp) for 9mm is significant and has more impact than I have had on any other caliber. My credentials on this subject are shallow compared to the folks who have posted but I have undone tons of test loads by my taper crimp die messing up my cast bullets (and not knowing it was happening). It was only recently I noticed that my standard Lee crimp die and standard RCBS crimp die (both taper crimp) were putting a mark on my .358 sized 120 gr Lee TC bullets. I measured some of these and seating depths were being pushed off the set depth. This mischief was causing erratic performance of my loads on the range and that finally turned the lights on ..... all this care of alloy, powder charge, sizing, lube, depth of seating was being negated by my crimp dies and it was not a brand issue as Lee did it and so did my RCBS taper crimp die.

So I loaded up some ammo w/o crimps. Set my infamous 9mm Factory Lee carbide crimp die into my single stage press and tried an experiment. Now I don't use this FCD carbide Lee die as I found all the ills of it as posted on this forum and had it fully retired months ago. I brought it out of moth balls and I installed it so my loaded rounds infinitely (a molecule) of
insertion into base of the die so that I barely felt the nose of the rounds touched. This is a
hair touch mind you. I tested all the rounds thus done and they fed flawlessly and shot the best group ever with 120 Lee TC 9mm bullets.

My theory: That bare touch took the flare off the case just enough but did not alter sizing of the bullets. Now, perhaps that kind of KISS can happen with Lee / RCBS taper crimp dies but I sure cannot seem to make it happen.

My case mouths are touched just enough to pull down the flare by molecules but this seems to work. No doubt in my mind, dimensions on taper crimp dies are not always standard and maybe I ought to send my taper crimp dies back and have them opened up a tad.

What do you guys think... send dies back?

Thanks.

PS: All this work up for 9mm and now I find out the demon is crimp. All this time, I was thinking I had a light crimp and was unconcerned and what I was doing was UN Doing all my
careful load developments.

[462]

I've found that fat-for-caliber boolits -- .358" in your case -- lead to die modification. Recently, in exchange for some rather tasty and difficult to find beer, a machinist neighbor made some beautiful, fatter and longer M-die expander plugs, and I've done much with a hand drill and drill press.

Before you send the dies back, see if you can enlarge them yourself, or what a local machinist would charge.

[jsizemore]

I didn't read where you actually shot the 356 boolits in the 356 groove barrel. You might actually NOT have a problem. You won't know till you try.

[milprileb]

I posted a separate thread on 9mm crimp for novice reloaders.

Pls see that: it captures everything I have done wrong on crimps

which replicates the swaging issue OP documents. I found a solution

after much distress. HAIR LIGHT ... I mean a molecular touch crimp !