Your load for 45 ACP with lyman #452374

[heavyd]

I need your seating depth, OAL, for lyman #452374 225gr LRN. I have been loading them to 1.272 over 4.2 grains of WST but have feeding problems in my 1911 government (STI Spartan). This is a lighter load so I have tried different recoil springs but to no avail. Please help. Thanks

Edited for clarification

[Baja_Traveler]

Standard accuracy load for 45acp: 4.6gr Bullseye

Works awesome in all my .45's

[heavyd]

Standard accuracy load for 45acp: 4.6gr Bullseye

Works awesome in all my .45's

Your OAL? That's my issue here I believe that is causing feeding problems.

[MakeMineA10mm]

EASY, BEST solution to OAL / feeding problems (and it works ESPECIALLY good with the 452374 boolit!):

Unscrew all the lock rings on your seat/crimp die and unscrew both the die body and the seater stem out so far that it's ridiculous. (The die and seater stem should be backed out so far that it won't touch a round being inserted into the press with the ram raised all the way up.)

Insert a FACTORY-Loaded military-Ball round of 45 ACP in the shell holder.

Lower the handle/raise the ram to it's fullest extension.

Screw the die body down until the crimp shoulder engages the factory crimp on the factory-loaded military-ball round.

Screw down the lock ring for the die body until it touches the press, and then unscrew it 1/8th of a turn.

Lock the set-screw in your lock ring, so it stays RIGHT THERE. (You've now got your crimp setting perfect to duplicate the factory crimp. The reason for the 1/8th turn is two-fold: First, if you screw the lock ring down tight on the press and lock it with a loaded round in the die, you won't be able to unscrew the die from the press later. Second, the brass has some "spring-back" and so you need to apply just a touch more crimp than you'd expect to get the results of your reloads to match the factory round.)

Next, with the factory-loaded military-ball round still up in the die, screw down your seater stem until it bears hard against the factory FMJ-RN bullet nose.

Screw down the lock-ring for the seating stem so it locks the seating stem in place, right there, with some hard-bearing against the nose of the bullet. (There's no spring-back issue here, and the die won't get "stuck" with this lock-ring and a bearing against the bullet.)

Now, pull out the factory ball round, and start seating/crimping your reloads with your 452374 boolits. They should come out as lead-RN duplicates of the factory military-ball load. (The 374 boolit, as I'm sure you already know, was designed to duplicate the profile of the military ball bullet.)

Don't know what the OAL setting is, but I guarantee 100% functioning. If you don't get 100% functioning, the problem is now with your pistol, NOT with your ammo or OAL setting.

For a factory ball duplication load, I run 5.6grs of W231, but you may have to adjust up or down somewhat, because of burning rate variances with that powder. (You may also substitute HP38, as they are the same powder, with a different label from a different company - but both powders come out of the same "SMP231" spigot at St. Marks Powders in Florida - the production facility.) You're looking for a velocity in a 5" pistol barrel of about 830-870 fps.

[MakeMineA10mm]

One other thing - just as a safeguard, in case in some way these instructions get screwed up, and you wind up seating the factory-loaded military-ball round's bullet deeper when you're trying to set this up:

Throw your calipers on the factory-loaded ball round and get it's OAL before you start this process. When you're all done setting up this process, your reloads should be identical to that original reading.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Also, 3rd thing :lol: ,

If you think it's your OAL that is causing feeding issues, you may want to go to a full-power (ball-duplication) load with the original full-weight spring in place, once you get your seating depth set right (as I outlined above). If your problem is really a feeding issue and you THINK it's your OAL, this will tell you. It could be that lighter spring is causing you feeding issues... Most guys I know that run lighter springs use lighter bullets (185 or so, some 200), so using a full-weight bullet with a lighter load could cause problems with the cycling/feeding of the pistol with a lighter spring...

[462]

A length that works in someone else's gun most likely will not work in yours.

You will need to remove the barrel and use it as a gauge to determine the cartridge's overall length. Drop a cartridge into the barrel, when the boolit is at its correct seating depth, the bottom of the case will be flush with the barrel's hood. When you drop a cartridge of the correct length into the barrel, it will make a very distinct "kerplunk" sound.

Don't forget to apply a slight taper crimp so that the case mouth measures about .473" (that's what works for me, but may not for you). Important: Crimp in a seperate operation, not in conjuction with boolit seating.

As you can see, this will take some time, so patience will be rewarded.

Of course the above is done with dummy rounds only -- no primer, no powder.

Lastly, load a magazine and check for proper loading and feeding.

[giz189]

Yep, what 462 said.

[35remington]

Some hopefully helpful suggestions offered in a constructive and hopefully informational kind of way:

MakeMine, I've tried that ogive matching idea with the 452374, and it doesn't work, at least with the 452374 in its original form, not the super pointy iteration of late. I doubt it would work with that one either.

The 452374, then or now, does not duplicate the ball radius.

What happens when "ogive matching" is done with my dies (more than one variant; three, actually) is the overall length of the 452374 in the finished round comes out even longer than Lyman's recommendation, and, incidentally, quite noticeably longer than the max spec for 45 ACP of 1.275." The ogive of the 452374 not exactly the same, such that it must be seated out further to get the same diameter bearing against the seating stem radius. It is skinnier near the end of the bullet than a ball round is.

FWIW that's true for the Lee 230-2R as well.

This presupposes the concavity of the seating stem will allow the intrusion of the pointy tip of the bullet before bearing against the ogive. It may or may not in other brands that I have not tried, for all I know. That would also throw things off. One size fits all seating stems in some die brands don't help matters, but dissimilar curves to bullet noses confounds in several types of dies in using this ogive matching method and OAL's exceed maximums.

The recommendation of 1.272" was listed by Lyman over many years for the 452374. Several manuals show it. Whether that's also supposedly correct for the new pointer version I have no idea.

Ogive matching does work great with Hornady 230 FMJ and the component bullets Winchester uses in their WWB 230 serrated hollowpoints. So it does work for some bullets but not here.

All that is possible is to start reducing OAL because increasing length is not possible.

Heavyd, please describe the nature of the feeding problem and the position of the round when it jams. Location of jam, explained concisely, tells us something about the cause. "It jams" isn't enough info.

Sometimes jams are the fault of the bullet profile and how it is loaded and sometimes they are not. Depends upon what you tell us.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Some hopefully helpful suggestions offered in a constructive and hopefully informational kind of way:

MakeMine, I've tried that ogive matching idea with the 452374, and it doesn't work, at least with the 452374 in its original form, not the super pointy iteration of late. I doubt it would work with that one either.

The 452374, then or now, does not duplicate the ball radius.

What happens when "ogive matching" is done with my dies (more than one variant; three, actually) is the overall length of the 452374 in the finished round comes out even longer than Lyman's recommendation, and, incidentally, quite noticeably longer than the max spec for 45 ACP of 1.275." The ogive of the 452374 not exactly the same, such that it must be seated out further to get the same diameter bearing against the seating stem radius. It is skinnier near the end of the bullet than a ball round is.

FWIW that's true for the Lee 230-2R as well.

This presupposes the concavity of the seating stem will allow the intrusion of the pointy tip of the bullet before bearing against the ogive. It may or may not in other brands that I have not tried, for all I know. That would also throw things off. One size fits all seating stems in some die brands don't help matters, but dissimilar curves to bullet noses confounds in several types of dies in using this ogive matching method and OAL's exceed maximums.

The recommendation of 1.272" was listed by Lyman over many years for the 452374. Several manuals show it. Whether that's also supposedly correct for the new pointer version I have no idea.

Ogive matching does work great with Hornady 230 FMJ and the component bullets Winchester uses in their WWB 230 serrated hollowpoints. So it does work for some bullets but not here.

This has been the utter and complete opposite of my experience. I've got an older (not sure which generation, but I inheritted it from my dad, who probably bought the Lyman 4-cavity mould in the early 70s) Lyman 452374, and it's ogive is a pretty darn close duplicate of the military ball round. My Govt.-Profile group buy came out waaaay pointier than I wanted. Something happened there, either in the drawing or the way it was read, or possibly in the data provided from Lyman, because that group buy mould was indeed way pointier than my older Lyman mould...

Sometime later this week (maybe Friday or Saturday), I'll take some pictures to illustrate what I mean.

Secondarily, I find that ogive-matching does not have to be 100% perfect to provide workable results. For example, I use the same technique to set up my 9mm dies and the profile of the military ball bullet is far different than either of my 9mm bullets. However, with the correct OAL, as set by the factory ball round, I get good feeding with both those bullets. Now, in some pistols which may have more sensitive timing issues, I admit this could become an issue, but I've had very good results doing this so far.

Indeed, when I was selling reloads commercially, this is how I set up my dies, and I never had a problem with several hundred thousand rounds sold. The factories find one OAL that works for their ammo with a particular bullet, so I don't know why we couldn't with our handloads?

If the OP sets up his dies as I suggested, and goes to a full-power/normal-power load with the original spring, and there's not something pretty unusual going on, like pure lead bullets combined with a burr on the feed ramp, there is something wrong with the set-up of the gun, not the ammo. I'm suspicious it's the light spring combined with heavy bullet that's causing his problems, but as you say, it could be any number of things, and we need more details.

[35remington]

I find that OAL matching works too.....if the ogives are reasonably close and I do it all the time myself so no argument there. In this instance pointier designs may exceed OAL maximums if the "duplicate" bullet is skinnier an equivalent distance from the end of the bullet than the blunter design.

I just repeated this test ten minutes ago.

My 452374 is likely of the older, less pointy style, purchased used at a gun show. In any event, this older style, when set up to match WW White Box ammo loaded to 1.263" with the "ogive matching" principle came out with an overall length of 1.278" which exceeds the max OAL allowed for the 45 ACP. I used my Lyman seating die for this test.

When using my fairly new RCBS seating die, using a WWB round from the same box but of 1.265" OAL resulted in the same 1.278" overall length, showing a slight difference from what the Lyman die does.....same OAL with the Lyman bullet but with a 0.002" longer factory cartridge as a "standard" for ogive matching.

This is all said as "something to watch out for" given mould cherry variations.

The shape of the seating stem used and the depth of the recess in its cavity may also play a role in the OAL of the round that results with ogive matching.

Overlength rounds may hang up in the magazine or catch against a standard ejection port when live ejecting rounds. The rounds will hang up in a rather awkward jam until the magazine is dropped and the gun is attended to.

I note the new 452374 is pointier yet, and finishes with a longer OAL than mine using the same method, which isn't helpful. I base this on samples a friend provided with his newer mould (can't say I like the looks of the new version, BTW).

Just saying this is likely based on the various mould cutting cherries used over the years. Not all 452374's are lock step identical over this time, and the newest version of the 452374 looks like the front end of a rocket compared to the much blunter 230 FMJ ogive radius.

If the overall length of the rounds produced exceed the SAAMI spec for the 45 ACP, as here, the cartridge must be shortened. No choice.

Feeding of the overlength round in terms of feed ramp strike location and lift angles may be all right, but the problem of overlength may inhibit movement in the magazine and could jam the gun. A comment intended for the OP rather than anyone else.

Just a case of a limiting factor of the mould coming into play. With other designs and styles it may not be a problem.

I don't like to skate too close to the OAL limit of the cartridge, as I find that some degree of clearance is desirable in hand feeding live rounds out the ejection port. We all need to remove a loaded round from the chamber on occasion. My preferences are not necessarily universal for everyone, but many may find them applicable.

FWIW.

Please do not see this as a refutation of 10MM's very good advice, just a comment based on the peculiarities and differences of the Lyman 452374 mould that seem to be evident over time. Likely 10MM's mould isn't exactly the same as mine, and neither of ours may be the same as yours.

Did I mention I didn't like the looks of the new version?

[heavyd]

Some hopefully helpful suggestions offered in a constructive and hopefully informational kind of way:

Heavyd, please describe the nature of the feeding problem and the position of the round when it jams. Location of jam, explained concisely, tells us something about the cause. "It jams" isn't enough info.

Sometimes jams are the fault of the bullet profile and how it is loaded and sometimes they are not. Depends upon what you tell us.

When it jams it is a failure to feed. Mostly the jam is the bullet getting stuck on the top of the chamber above the feed ramp so the bullet never actually chambers. I have even chamber checked each round to ensure proper feeding and still problems. I have tried all kinds of reoil springs, from 10 lbs to factory and still have issues. I don't know where the problem is.

[35remington]

It's not the recoil spring.

If the cartridge is at an angle between breechface and barrel, with the rim failing to get under the extractor, it could be called a three point jam. The round is not breaking over to the horizontal in time, and it wedges.

A number of things can cause this. It's hard to diagnose without a picture.

First, what magazines do you have? Have you tried any others? This is often the culprit.

Does this happen with a particular round in the magazine (first? last? random?). The order of the rounds as they jam can tell us something.

Is there a gap between frame ramp and barrel ramp when the barrel is fully rearward? Check with a disassembled frame and barrel and let us know. If there is no gap, this increases the tendency of the pistol to jam.

How is your extractor tension? Do you know how to check for correct tensioning?

[Rico1950]

+1 on the mags. Try a different brand, made like original GI mags.

[462]

If you isolate the problem to one or more magazine, instead of buying new, just replace the spring(s).

[heavyd]

It's not the recoil spring.

If the cartridge is at an angle between breechface and barrel, with the rim failing to get under the extractor, it could be called a three point jam. The round is not breaking over to the horizontal in time, and it wedges.

A number of things can cause this. It's hard to diagnose without a picture.

First, what magazines do you have? Have you tried any others? This is often the culprit.

Does this happen with a particular round in the magazine (first? last? random?). The order of the rounds as they jam can tell us something.

Is there a gap between frame ramp and barrel ramp when the barrel is fully rearward? Check with a disassembled frame and barrel and let us know. If there is no gap, this increases the tendency of the pistol to jam.

How is your extractor tension? Do you know how to check for correct tensioning?

It is not mags. The all jam, the factory ACT, Chip Mckormick, and 3 different 8 round Wilsons. Jamming is random. Frame ramp and barrel ramp gap is approx. 1/16 of an inch or so (don't have my calipers on me). I do not know how to check for extractor tension. A friend looked at some of my casings, noting a mark on the rim, and said my extractor was good. I have no clue what the issue is.

Someone else said it could be my match grade barrel does not agree with my range pickup brass. However, I chamber check each round so this shouldn't be an issue.

[35remington]

What is little known is that most aftermarket magazines don't feed the 1911 the way it was intended to be fed. This includes all the brands you mention.

The most common remedy if a 1911 isn't feeding is to use a tapered lip magazine. As in original GI or hybrid.

That's not a guarantee that it is your cure. However, unless we can see some pictures, I still don't have enough info.

The extractor nose should not be leaving a mark on your case. If there's a ding in the rim cut that isn't good, but that isn't necessarily your problem either.

Sounds like a three point. Is it possible for you to read my description of a three point jam I mentioned earlier and confirm whether that is the case? It sure sounds like it.

Is this pistol new or used? Has it ever fed reliably with any bullet? If so, what bullets or cartridges were you using? Does it work okay with factory ball?

[LabGuy]

Currently I use a OAL of 1.272 for the 452374 with 5.5 grains Unique or 4.0 grains Bullseye. I’m using a Springfield 1911 from the 1980s.

[Mack Heath]

This has already be posted somewhere on this forum, but you might want to check out this link. It is an analysis of 1911 mags and how they work. Very informative.

http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines/

There is a second part to it as well, but it is not directly realted to your problem:

http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines2/

MH

[MakeMineA10mm]

I promised I would get to this, like, 3-4 weeks ago, and this is a very hurried pic without all of the examples I wanted to include, but nonetheless, here is a comparison of a few 45x230gr RN ogives:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=179&pictureid=4306
Flanking both sides of the pic are Western 45 Target loads loaded back in the 60s/early 70s. (It's the closest thing I could lay my hands on to Winchester military ammo. Somewhere around here in this mess, I have a couple ammo cans of arsenal loaded 45s loaded in the 60s when Winchester/Olin had the contract to run the arsenal. I also have an ammo can full of WWII Evanston [Chrysler] steel-cased ball ammo as well. If I can run across them in the next few weeks, I'll take an up-dated pic.)

Left to right, the three unloaded bullets are:
My 45x230 Govt.-Profile Group Buy mould (which obviously didn't match up to my idea of the Govt.-Profile).
Middle is the late-60s/early-70s LYMAN 452374. (These were cast a few years ago, as you can see by the fading of the lead to bluish-grey.)
Last is a Ball FMJ that was pulled from a military load a few years ago. It was from the Evanston WWII ammo. (I was wanting to empty some cases to experiment with hot-loading the steel cases.)

Note that the WWII bullet is more rounded, less pointy than the Lyman 374 bullet, yet, it still has a double-radius with a narrower nose end (very hard to see, but it's there). The Vietnam-era 45 ammo I have that was loaded by Winchester, has a pointier, double-ogive bullet that is identical to the Lyman bullet in my pic above (and to the Western factory loads shown). Obviously, even the arsenal has to replace dies every so often, and this has apparently led to variations in the FMJ ball bullets also. Possibly Lyman was on top of this and modified their cherries when they needed replaced to match the most-current military ogive? (Most-reasonable explanation I can think of...)

All I know is that the cast-boolit handloads with my 374 bullet mould is so close to Vietnam-era factory that no guns I've ever tried them in (including full-auto Thompsons) could tell the difference, and that was using ogive-matching to set the OAL.

Also, there was a good article in a magazine (can't even remember which one now...) that showed the H&G#68 bullet outline laid on top of the Govt-profile FMJ-RN (the one like my Vietnam-era FMJs), and pointed out that the radius on the #68 from the meplat to the ogive matched perfectly the outline of the FMJ, and the point was made that the reason the H&G#68 feeds so well is because it engages the feed-ramp and chamber identically to the FMJ-RN. Now, I can imagine some arguments with this, such as: you'd need a seat-die that engaged the bullet ogives at exactly the right point. That's an interesting question, but interestingly, using the ogive-matching system to set my seating stem, it worked with my dies and my H&G#68s (both original H&G moulds and my Group Buys (corrected) mould...

It's interesting that there is such a complicated relationship between springs, mag-lips, bullet ogives, feed-ramp, and timing that the OP is having seemingly diabolical problems, yet, the arsenals and bullet-mould makers can make so many variations of noses that alledgedly work... Quite the conundrum, isn't it?

[heavyd]

What is little known is that most aftermarket magazines don't feed the 1911 the way it was intended to be fed. This includes all the brands you mention.

The most common remedy if a 1911 isn't feeding is to use a tapered lip magazine. As in original GI or hybrid.

That's not a guarantee that it is your cure. However, unless we can see some pictures, I still don't have enough info.

The extractor nose should not be leaving a mark on your case. If there's a ding in the rim cut that isn't good, but that isn't necessarily your problem either.

Sounds like a three point. Is it possible for you to read my description of a three point jam I mentioned earlier and confirm whether that is the case? It sure sounds like it.

Is this pistol new or used? Has it ever fed reliably with any bullet? If so, what bullets or cartridges were you using? Does it work okay with factory ball?

Thank you for all of your help. I do believe it is a 3 point jam. I bought the gun new and it has approximately 4 thousand rounds through it. It does shoot ball ammo flawlessly, with Wilson Mags. Chips cause problems even with ball.

[35remington]

The McCormick magazine's straight lipped configuration results in the steepest feeding angle of any magazine on the market. I'm not singling out just his brand; rather, those magazines of identical configuration to his product. And there are several types that have this feed lip shape.

This steep feed angle has greater propensity for three points, especially if some other part of the gun is less than optimal, like a shallow frame ramp depth, improper frame ramp angle or a straight rather than a (properly) angled breech face.

The Wilson magazine, while also having straight feed lips, allows less of a dive into the frame ramp than the McCormick, which may explain the reason it doesn't occur with this magazine brand. Angularity of feeding is less. The Wilson feed profile was in fact designed to help avoid three point jam problems, or at least reduce the frequency of problems in the myriad 1911's out there, many of which have less than correct frame and breechface dimensions.

Unfortunately, the Wilson also flings the round through space during the feeding cycle in an uncontrolled manner as a consequence of this reduced frequency of three point jams, which is the downside. This is not how JMB intended his pistol to feed.

[waksupi]

I have some McCormick mags. I wold have fail to feed on the next to last round real regularly. So, I emailed the company, and complained. They said I shouldn't leave them loaded all the time. I carry my gun all the time, huh?
I insisted there was something wrong with them, and Chip himself contacted me, and basically told me they were made to only work with certain factory ammo, and that is all I should be shooting. All of this in a real snotty way, that did not endear me to him, his employees, or the company.
I bought new springs and followers from Brownell's, and they now function fine, no thanks to McCormick whatsoever. I also found out after this that MANY people have had the same problems with these magazines.

[462]

35remington and waksupi,
Thanks for the information about McCormick magazines.

[HDS]

Hmmm we'll see how my 1911 runs with them once I get it back from the butchers.

[heavyd]

I agree with the angle of the Chips and they do cause problems. However, the 3 Wilsons and Factory mags cause the same jam and just as often. So it is not the magazines. I still have not located the problem and am getting so frustrated I am considering selling the gun.

[eck0313]

Try reducing your OAL to 1.260-1.265 - I think that will help your reliability issues. I've shot the Lyman 452374 with 5.6 gr. Win 231 at that length for years, and found it to be an accurate, and reliable load in a variety of 1911s.

For those of you chasing the Distinguished Pistol Shot medal, this load shoots to the same zero as full power GI Ball, Match, or Federal Match 230 gr. loads at 50 yards.